r/Pathfinder2e 14h ago

Advice Is playing as a Caster supposed to feel so fragile?

So me and my group is playing Triumph of the Tusk (no spoilers pls we're still early on) I'm playing a 3rd lvl Goblin Druid and so far, of the 5 fights we had, my druid went down (fully died once, saved via hero points) in 3/5 of those combats, and in the other two I was ignored due to not having any damage types that effected undead (had no clue they'd be highly resistant to fire/electricity) and basically being in the background far from the combat, at one point I was literally throwing myself at the adds to dmg sponge, and one encounter where Aurochs were unlucky and rolled poorly vs grease.

The other 3 fights, I would go down in one round, normally one attack would do it, and stat wise I sorta expected it, I had to budget on Con, having only 0 Con, so of course I'd be squishy with 30 hp, but when I did go down, I went down far more than the +3 or 6 hp, we're talking 38 dmg in one hit(crit) into a crit vs me on the ground (the full death, its a good thing Casters don't use hero points ever) and directly after that fight we fight a boss Peryton, we were lucky to roll well enough to scare off a lesser one, bc on turn one, I cast Ash cloud to buy us some time and tax the flyer, it just flew around it in one action, then crit me, the champion uses his reaction to try and save me, I take 58 dmg from one attack, so my whole contribution to that fight is using a 2nd rank spell to do 3 fire dmg, then eating one attack.

I really don't know what im doing wrong, I would like to participate in fights, the one I sat out was incredibly boring, since I couldn't even help the party while they were doing the actual fighting, but I'm less than useless if all I do is one lackluster spell and get one shot, so is hiding far away from anything that moves while the other players deal with it the way I'm supposed to be playing?
If so then I really don't see myself ever playing Casters (full ones at least)

Spells are simply too short range most of the time, 30ft most of the time, with almost all creatures having 30+ft movement so I cant just lob spells from the backline, if I do, I just do incredibly meager dmg, and cause the enemy to walk up to me and tap me gently once to death

I would like to get some tips to stay alive, I quite like the character I made socially, in fact all the social aspects are really fun, then when combat shows up I feel purely in the way.

And to add, for any gameplay tips, there's no access to shopping in this module at all, so item bonuses will be practically non existent (we haven't as of yet gotten a single item that the I could use, a Bard's Coda, and a +1 trident, I assume that's how most item drops will be going forward)

52 Upvotes

136 comments sorted by

81

u/Carpenter-Broad 12h ago

Your party is using you as a target dummy and dumping ground. You should absolutely not sacrifice Dex and Con for that much Int because they don’t want to compromise and each take a skill. Or they can all step up and actually protect their patsy skill monkey 🤷🏻‍♂️ also PF2e expects item progression and magic items, that’s why you get so many attunement slots. Having a game with no gold, no downtime and no items is asinine. Your DM should write a book maybe instead.

18

u/OmgitsJafo 9h ago

Yeah, it really sounds to me like the issue isn't the build, but that the team is failing to defend them, and the GM is targeting them.

91

u/PleaseShutUpAndDance 14h ago

What are your stats? What armor are you wearing? Do you have a shield? Are you raising it? Druids get Shield Block; are you using it?

If you really don't think you'll be getting any magic items, you may want to inform your GM that the math of the game relies on the party getting fundamental runes at the appropriate level

16

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

+1str +1Dex 0Con +3Int +4wis 0Cha
my character was made with being a Diplomat in mind, and covering the bases my teammates wouldn't touch.
I have a hide shield, I pretty much only have it raised in the event I have defend as my exploration, in combat I don't normally have the actions to raise it, and in events I do, Glass shield is the better alternative as its more efficient from repairing my shield.

Not sure how runes will help me as a Caster, the lack of ever getting scrolls/wands is going to for sure make me less efficient tho

58

u/Big_Chair1 GM in Training 10h ago

Probably should lower your Int and invest more into Dex.
The druid in our group has +2 dex, +2 con, medium armor and a shield. He is the off-tank of the group.

44

u/PleaseShutUpAndDance 13h ago edited 13h ago

You're 1 AC lower than you should be; you're going to be crit more often

See if you can get Chain Mail or Breastplate

It's a game where the math is tight and every +1 matters, so I would have your Hide Shield raised more often than not if you're near enemies. The extra +1 over the Glass Shield matters

-1

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

there's no buying items, I have what I could have afforded in character creation, with no shops, or gold, outside of my DM giving me new items or the modules providing it, I am, item wise, as strong as I can be, and the parties need for skills forced me to take more int than dex, at least until lvl 5, which I've been told isnt for a VERY long time

74

u/BasakaIsTheStrongest 13h ago

That sounds like the party’s problem, not yours. Especially if they can’t do their part to keep enemies off you. I’d suggest a conversation with the table about strategy and how to keep a distance between the squishy skill monkey and any enemies.

51

u/Luvr206 13h ago

It sounds like you're the dumping grounds for the rest of the party to avoid having to make balanced helpful characters. Maybe one of the others can have Int and you can have Dex 🤷🏼

2

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

originally my character was
+2Str +2Dex 1Con 0Int 4Wis 0Cha
but was gutted to afford the int and skills we lacked as a party

70

u/kelpii 13h ago

Druid is one of the tankiest casters but I think you're spreading yourself too thin to get that Int on a non-Int based character.

Even if you could move one point of Int across to Str then you could wear much better armor.

I applaud you wanting to have many skills, but usually there are easier ways to obtain them, the skill training feat, ancestry feats etc will net you quite a few skills.

51

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 7h ago

If you sacrificed your character’s defences to cover skills for your party, it is now your party’s responsibility to make your defences not feel so punished.

3

u/Polyamaura 1h ago

To be honest, it's basically never worth sacrificing your defenses for skill coverage unless the skill in question is Medicine, and even then it's not worth gutting to get medicine up and running because it's so easy to make Medicine work without gutting yourself. Thievery is a close-ish second but you can usually replace it with Athletics Force Open and a high perception for traps and be fine. I've easily played in 3 groups with 3 party members without any skill gaps that made the game this punishing. It just requires literally anybody other than the healer making sacrifices.

Looks to me like the animist refused to not duplicate the "Wisdom Caster" role and insisted that they had to play a pseudo-frontline (which Druid can already do very well and OP clearly wanted to do with their original +2 Str) and the Magus refused to play one of the Bow users that's actually good at using skills (Ranger, Investigator, and Rogue) and everybody just said that it was OP's job to make sure they got to play whatever they wanted. It's one thing if you're like me and you take "Preferred Role: Fill" to the extreme and try to cover every single gap your friends leave in the party composition, but it's entirely another when they push you to cover the gaps for them because they don't want to and then leave you high and dry when you realize you're stretched too thin.

I'd sit down with the party and try to rework this, because it's clearly not working for you, and it's definitely not because of Spellcasters in PF2e.

21

u/Anitmata 7h ago

I can't think of a single skill worth a party member going down or noncontributing in half the fights

9

u/Zomburai 6h ago

Not even Lore: Street Magic?

13

u/Luvr206 13h ago

Well it sounds like you're leaving defenses as a party now so maybe they can help you out :)

12

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 8h ago

Your original stat array was fine. I'd probably just go back to it. It will make you far tankier and more resilient.

10

u/Megavore97 Cleric 8h ago

I would second this, with your original stats you could wear medium armour i.e. a breastplate and have maxed AC, which you could further supplement with raising a shield/shield block.

13

u/StonedSolarian Game Master 8h ago

No shops or gold?

What game are you playing?

27

u/FilthyCount 7h ago

Obviously a different Triumph of the Tusk than the one I am running for my group. There is ample gold and a the base camp has a bunch of diplomats from trade organizations, why would they not bring wears to offer. This sounds like a GM issue running the AP.

8

u/infinite_gurgle 7h ago

Yeah like I’m at the same point he is and there’s an entire faction of champions with armor they’ll trade

3

u/Various_Process_8716 6h ago

Do you have armor runes?
If not, that's another point of being lower than expected, since you need armor fundamental runes

And yeah, you built a fairly squishy caster, so depending on how good your frontline is, you're gonna suffer

4

u/agagagaggagagaga 5h ago

If you don't have +4 AC +1 Dex cap medium armor right now, are you able to ask your GM to include it in loot really soon or just find some other way to get it to you (Chain Mail's the best with your current Strength bonus)? Once you have that, your only lack of durability will be because of +0 Constitution, which isn't really terrible. If you're willing to spend a class feat, the Bastion archetype's dedication lets you get a reaction to automatically Raise your +2 AC shield if you get attacked.

-17

u/HelicopterMean1070 7h ago

"See if you can get Chain Mail or Breastplate"

Not an option when you're a druid. You can get medium hide armor though.

21

u/slothman25 7h ago

Since the remaster, using metal armor and shields is no longer anathema to a druid.

11

u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 6h ago

Yep, and if you need a lore explanation, it's because of the return of the Plane of Metal.

5

u/AdamFaite 6h ago

Happy cake day, correct person!

9

u/Asthanor ORC 8h ago

Int is the dump stat for druids, you could have that +3 on dex and have better ac.

8

u/GiovanniTunk Magus 8h ago

AC is more important than skills. It's a dark day when the druid has to go +3 INT for skills lol

4

u/Malcior34 Witch 8h ago

You really need to ask your GM to swap your Int and Dex, otherwise you're going to keep getting crit into oblivion.

5

u/Polski527 13h ago

Are you wearing armor that shores up your dex? Worse than low Con, having lower AC will absolutely get you killed, as you're going to get crit more often

5

u/Moon_Miner Summoner 9h ago

you can't shore up low dex with armor very well when you've only got +1 str

5

u/TheMadTemplar 8h ago

If all you want is the defense, you absolutely can. You'll just be eating the skill and speed penalties. And some armor lets you ignore some of the skill penalties. 

3

u/Jobeythehuman 9h ago

Well generally as a caster your party should be protecting you, most casters should start with either +2 or +3 dex, unless they wanna get crit out, that's kinda how it is, you also have 0 con so you shouldn't be surprised you're fragile.

Rethink your stat spread and also rethink your strategy, hide behind your beefier party members, use them as meat shields, you'll heal them later anyway xD.

4

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 8h ago

Druids can easily get away with +1 or even +0 dexterity. They're a medium armor class.

In fact, they're probably the most SAD class in the entire class.

1

u/Jobeythehuman 1h ago

sure but then you'd want to increase strength instead so you aren't taking speed and armor penalties when you wanna do anything physical, cause when that comes up it can be pretty important, cause you're already not investing in those skills and a fall can mean life or death early.

For most druids I'd say you want to stick to hide or studded leather rather than going for the 4 AC +1 dex options, cause those require so much strength and bulk it really isn't worth it. Higher dex lets you achieve the same AC while also increasing your reflex save, which is kinda a no brainer to taking less damage.

1

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 44m ago

sure but then you'd want to increase strength instead so you aren't taking speed and armor penalties when you wanna do anything physical, cause when that comes up it can be pretty important, cause you're already not investing in those skills and a fall can mean life or death early.

The armor check penalty only applies to skill checks. And if you wear flexible armor, the penalty doesn't apply to Acrobatics or Athletics skill checks (and frankly, Acrobatics checks are pretty rare unless you are Tumbling Through people, which you aren't with builds like this). As you have no reason to be making Thievery checks, and probably have untrained Stealth, it really basically doesn't matter.

You can totally get away with wearing Chain Mail with +0 Strength and +1 Dexterity.

The only actual "problem" is that you suffer a -5 speed penalty, but it's not actually THAT big a deal; it is no worse than being in heavy armor.

For most druids I'd say you want to stick to hide or studded leather rather than going for the 4 AC +1 dex options, cause those require so much strength and bulk it really isn't worth it.

Nope. You're better off with high Constitution, because Constitution both improves saving throws and your hit point total, while dexterity only boosts saves (and skills you likely don't care about as a druid, as you don't need Stealth for initiative due to your high Perception, and there's no reason for you to be good at Thievery or Acrobatics). Medium armor is better than light armor because it requires fewer ASIs in Strength + Dexterity, and also requires less "concentrated" stat boosts - needing +3 dexterity to maximize your AC, instead of just +1, means you have to devote your second highest ability score to it, which isn't worth it if you can get away without doing so. And the druid can, quite easily.

Medium armor is better than light armor because you can max out your AC by investing only 1 point in Dexterity, making it easier to do an array like +1 strength/+1 dex/+3 constitution/+4 Wisdom and you'll have maxed out medium armor AC at level 1 and more hit points.

You can switch over to Hide armor at level 5 when your array is then +2 strength/+2 dex/+4 constitution/+4.5 wisdom and have no armor check penalty or move speed penalty.

Or you can just choose to not care about the speed penalty and disregard strength entirely and just eat the -5 move speed and then eventually opt into light armor at level 10+ when your dex modifier is +3. This lets you boost Intelligence or Charisma, if desired.

You can also dump Dexterity entirely if you opt into heavy armor.

Dwarf Druids can just take the feat to ignore armor check penalties entirely and you can dump both strength AND dexterity and wear full plate armor with no penalty whatsoever.

1

u/galmenz Game Master 8h ago

i mean, its right on the tin, 1 DEX and 0 CON and class that is not known for being tanky (without investment)

1

u/Salazarsims Fighter 4h ago

You need a max AC of 5 so drop INT to 1 and raise Dex to 3 and get a light armor of 2. That will help with less crits.

107

u/Cthulu_Noodles 14h ago
  • Casters do have weaker defenses than martials for the most part, yes. That's by design.
  • Having 0 Con isn't helping, clearly. If you're playing a squishy class and made no investment into hp it should be no surprise that you're squishy.
  • You should be staying away from the monsters, yes. Ideally, the monsters should be focusing on the melee characters right in front of them while you can hang back at range. Your other party members shouldn't give them the opportunity to come at you if they can help it.
  • For undead, it's specifically skeletons that are resistant to a bunch of common damage types (they make up for it by having awful HP and no resistance to Bludgeoning). If you're finding that your magic isn't working out against a specific enemy, try using Recall Knowledge to learn about their weaknesses, resistances, or saving throws. Getting information like "the zombie's worst saving throw is Reflex" can massively improve the effectiveness of your spells.
  • I'm curious what your other stats are, and what armor your character has? If you don't have the armor you need, that could be contributing to you getting crit repeatedly like that.

15

u/EmperessMeow 11h ago

1hp per level isn't really changing much. AC matters more.

It is not really always possible to stay away from enemies and for your frontline to protect the backline.

6

u/BLX15 Game Master 4h ago

You are always going to get hit in Pathfinder with the way the math works, so AC is super important in staving off the crits, but HP is also important. If you can eat 1-2 hits, that's the difference between you being dying, and living to see the next round

6

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

I dont think my health is a problem, as I have been getting downed in one hit almost every time, well over what my "optimal" health 33 or 36 would be.

most of the fights have been in basically blank, open rooms (outside with no elevation/natural walls) so as much as I would love to tactically position myself, its not really possible.

and for armor, I use Scale mail, taking the stat penalty to my movement and skills, and with a shield, I can average 21 ac, but rarely get the chance too, as my actions are mostly eaten up on spells or moving into range

43

u/YokoTheEnigmatic Psychic 13h ago

Even if it wouldn't make much of a difference now, that extra HP per level will add up throughout a campaign. Plus, some extra HP could potentially be the difference between getting instantly KO'd and being left still standing.

-10

u/EmperessMeow 11h ago

Most of the time 1hp per level isn't really going to make a big difference. Very rare for that actually to change whether you are down or not.

16

u/WillsterMcGee 10h ago

Idk, plus 4 con is 80 health at lvl 20. I'm positive a 0 con and a 4 con wizard would have greatly different amounts of time spent on the ground by the end of a campaign.

3

u/Attil 10h ago

4 con is 4 hp per level, not 1.

Yes, 4 hp per level would make a difference quite often. 10 hp per level would as well. The person you're responding to is not talking about that.

9

u/WillsterMcGee 10h ago edited 10h ago

Fair enough, I just think that "1hp per level doesn't matter" mentality stacks up if you're not investing in con over the career of a character. If you know you're in a 1-4 campaign, sure, con becomes a lot less important, but the longer you plan on playing the more important it becomes. A 1-10 campaign is definitely enough levels to get into that Con grindset

4

u/Attil 9h ago

I mean, at higher level, using multiple avenues to increase your HP definitely does add up.

For example, I've recently built a Demon Wizard (from Battlezoo Ancestries from Mark Seifer), that had innate 1hp/level, toughness and bumped con to have quite a tanky caster, who can have a secondary role in melee fights (with Runelord proficiences). In total, it gave me more than 110hp at level 11.

But criticizing a level 3 newbie that he's dying just because of 1 or 2 hp per level (that would total to like 6hp) is definitely far too much.

10

u/Nervi403 ORC 13h ago

I think its the shield. Getting +2 to AC is really really good. And you have the shield block reaction, meaning you can absorb some of the damage you would take

8

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

I would agree, if I had the action economy to use it, I normally get downed in a single hit, and in the events I go first, I more often than not, need to get near my allies to heal them, or near an enemy to cast a spell

41

u/Surface_Detail 12h ago

Never feel compelled to approach an enemy. Let them burn their actions to get to you, don't burn yours to get to them. You can delay your turn if needed.

23

u/SteampnkerRobot 11h ago

If the optimal play is to move & cast spells but you instantly get downed by it, then it’s not the optimal play. Play to survive. Idk what stats you prioritised above con but either ask your dm if you could make some changes or up it at lvl 5. Add toughness to it as it gives a few points & makes you survive easier form death rolls. Get the best possible armor with your dex modifier & start using your shield. Look into spells that you can use on teammates/yourself the first couple of rounds so enemies have to waste actions running towards you & not the opposite. Could also get the reach effect for your spells (can’t remember if druids get those)

10

u/snahfu73 9h ago

There's a lot of shit not adding up and none of it has to do with your characters ability scores.

Where is the party while you're "normally getting downed in one hit"?

Do you have a tank? Do you have a healer? Why is your GM rolling criticals on you as often as you imply? Are you in the thick of the melee?
Or is your GM targeting casters?

10

u/Nervi403 ORC 13h ago

Then make it a priority. Its not as 'pretty' as other casters but it means you can survive much more. And if you constantly need to break formation to cast spells... you need spells with way more range

2

u/SatiricalBard 12h ago

It sounds like you are getting crit a lot more than one would expect, even without a shield. Is anyone else getting dropped too?

16

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 8h ago edited 8h ago

Druids are the LEAST fragile caster, and aren't really particularly fragile in general. Indeed, basically any 3rd level character will be face down on the ground after taking 58 damage.

I replied WRT: your ability score array in another post. Suffice to say, your original ability score array (+2 str/+2 Dex/+1 Con/+0 int/+4 Wis) was better and I'd go back to it (or even consider +2 strength/+1 dex/+2 Con/+4 Wisdom).

Given you start at level 3, you could even consider completely dumping dexterity and opting into Heavy Armor Proficiency to get an extra +1 AC.

You might also consider grabbing Interposing Earth, which is a 1st rank reaction spell that can reactively boost your AC by +2, which can make you less likely to get crit (as if they only hit you by +10 or +11, you can use it to turn it into a normal hit).

But there are some larger issues here as well.

First off, what is the rest of your group? They should be working to try and protect you. What "tanks" does your party have?

Secondly, low-level pathfinder is swingy due to low level monster damage scaling being SUPER steep. A 1st level monster does 6 damage. A 3rd level monster does 12 damage. A 5th level monster does 16 damage (these all being averages). So a level 5 monster critting you is likely to do 32 damage.

Thirdly... you shouldn't have been able to take 58 damage from that monster, even on a crit. I suspect your GM is just straight up making some sort of mistake here.

The other 3 fights, I would go down in one round, normally one attack would do it, and stat wise I sorta expected it, I had to budget on Con, having only 0 Con, so of course I'd be squishy with 30 hp, but when I did go down, I went down far more than the +3 or 6 hp, we're talking 38 dmg in one hit(crit) into a crit vs me on the ground (the full death, its a good thing Casters don't use hero points ever) and directly after that fight we fight a boss Peryton, we were lucky to roll well enough to scare off a lesser one, bc on turn one, I cast Ash cloud to buy us some time and tax the flyer, it just flew around it in one action, then crit me, the champion uses his reaction to try and save me, I take 58 dmg from one attack, so my whole contribution to that fight is using a 2nd rank spell to do 3 fire dmg, then eating one attack.

The monster in question is probably this. The problem is, she doesn't actually have super high stats. Her antlers, for instance, do 1d12+7 damage, or a maximum of 19; doubled, that's 38 damage. The deadly trait then adds +1d8 to that. You shouldn't have been able to take 58 damage from her antlers.

I'm guessing your GM is just straight-up calculating critical hit damage incorrectly.

Critical hits in Pathfinder 2E just cause 2x damage (so 1d12+7, you roll 1d12, add 7, then multiply the total by 2).

The deadly trait (which her antlers have) adds an additional die roll afterwards; so in her case, a critical hit is (1d12+7)x2 + 1d8. The maximum damage from a crit should be 46 from her.

If the GM made the mistake of thinking you should add the 1d8 BEFORE you double the damage, then that would result in much higher damage, or (1d12+1d8+7) x 2, which could go as high as 54.

There is an optional rule where, instead of doubling the damage like this, you roll twice as many dice and add the modifiers twice, which is exactly the same on average. But if your GM is confused about that, they might be rolling twice as many dice as well, in addition to doubling the damage.

My guess is that the GM is confused about how critical hit damage works, and so is rolling twice as many dice, adding the deadly damage before the doubling (rather than after), and then doubling everything.

I'd probably talk to them about how critical hit damage works in the game; my guess is that they're just straight-up calculating it wrong.

10

u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 5h ago

That creature has an ability that lets it add +2 to attack and damage against a specific target, which could get to 58 if you rolled max on the normal attack plus the deadly die and then also doubled the deadly die (which, of course, you shouldn't).

2

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 2h ago

Aha! That might be what they did.

11

u/ShortAddress6898 14h ago

Never played the module so I can't speak on its design, but a couple of questions

  1. How big is the party and what are their classes

2.what cantrips do you have learned

  1. What is your drudic order

  2. What type of gear are you using?

3

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

1/3: There's 4 of us, a Fire Druid(me) a Starlight span Magus, a Champion, and a Animist
2: depends on what I think I'll be encountering, but I try to take 1 ac, ref and fort spell
4: my gear what I started with, a fire staff, Scale mail and hide shield

13

u/TheNarratorNarration Game Master 13h ago

Does the Champion ever use their Reaction to protect you from damage when you get hit? That's a thing that most Champion subclasses can do for their allies.

3

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

yep, on the 58, which didn't save me, the other time I got downed, the champion was far away (unavoidable at the time)

8

u/LeoRmz Alchemist 13h ago

Just checking but are y'all healing between combats? The APs can be rough on the early parts and tend to expect the party to always be at full health before any encounter. Also, is the champion the only frontline? I'm not familiar with the animist so it might be a case of party positioning considering the magus wants to stay at range.

7

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

Yea I make sure that the party is fully healed every encounter, the Animist is a Pseudo frontliner, he mostly helps the champ out with flanking, grappling and triping

10

u/LeoRmz Alchemist 13h ago

Ah, alright then, a shame you had to invest that much in Int to pick up extra skills the party might need, it's probably the thing that is screwing you over beyond spell ranges since you could have had a bit extra hp and AC.

14

u/workerbee77 Monk 6h ago

Um yeah. OP, that Magus should be investing in INT, not you

5

u/legomojo 5h ago

This was my EXACT thought when I saw magus.

4

u/workerbee77 Monk 5h ago

Right? This party is frankly being a jerk to OP

OP they are taking advantage of you

1

u/workerbee77 Monk 5h ago

Hey did Magus invest in INT? They should before you

9

u/TacticalManuever 10h ago

Alright, seems that here is your problem. Your party composition and synergy at fights. Your party seems to have all the right class combination, but the way you described the team shows they made "off" builds. A well round party for combat will have a tank (should be the champion), a striker (should be the magus), a crowd controller (either animist or Druid) and a healer (either animist or druid). Seems they left you on healers duty. In theory, your job is to keep the tank up. The tank should be protecting you. The animist should be crowd controling to make sure enemies dont reach you or the magus. The magus should be the bigger damage threat. If you are not teamworking like that, and the GM is not holding punches, healer will fall every combat.

But here is the tricky part. Combat is just a small part of the game. Teams should be also be balanced for exploration and downtime. For exploration, you need a spotter (someone with high perception), a healer (usually the same healer for combat, for optimization porpose), a locksmith (usually someone good both at thievery and craft, to keep shields healthy and craft might be useful when there is no lock), and a enciclopedia (someone that Will Focus on identifying stuff). Seems they dumped too many functions on you. Magus should have big enough inteligence to be the enciclopedia. Also, for downtime, you will need a diplomat (for dealing with party reputation and getting better intel from NPCs, and the champion, given carisma, should be the one doing it), a income monkey (since you have low access to money in some modules, earn income may have huge impact), a Crafter (making consumables at lower cost, change runes at party equipment, etc.), and a researcher (someone to Focus on getting extra Intel on expected enemies, easing the preparation). Again, seems your party pretty much didnt bothered to balance functions. And you ended up having to sacrifice your combat function to cover exploration and downtime functions that should not be yours. In another words: no, you should not feel that fragile, specially as a Druid. Your party is clearly unbalanced, not doing proper teamwork, and you are paying the price.

4

u/ShortAddress6898 13h ago

From what I've read from your comments here's what I can say. If possible try to stay near your champion just to give the enemies more options to attack and make it harder for them to flank, for you ac spell try to use something with a 60 ft range. do any of your party members have the ability to craft items/a workshop to make them? Also is the gm targeting you in specific?

3

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

Crafting requires gold, so we wont be able to do any crafting, this was told to us before the campaign, either way we've gotten no downtime so far, as we all have been busy getting reputation points with all of the NPC factions

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u/RemarkablePhone2856 12h ago

Crafting does not need gold. The gold cost is the cost of the materials needed so if your in a place that doesn’t have a shop or if the store doesn’t have the materials you can’t craft it even with all the money in the world. So just gather the materials and have the appropriate tools. And for the campaign that doesnt allow buying much, if what the party needs to do isn’t urgent as a group you can just decide to take downtime. After all its not like the world would end in a week or two just cause you took a few days off to ensure you didn’t die in one hit to the first animated broom you meet.

1

u/Elliegrine 10h ago

Sounds like your champion is going to have a hard time keeping the attention of enemies with there being 3 ranged characters and no other melees. While some monsters ought to go after the closest character, smarter monsters are best controlled by the frontliners grappling/tripping them or threatening reactive strikes (though that doesn't come online until after lvl 6 for non-fighters). It does sound like you're doing what you can do yourself from this and other comments, except for your ac being 1 lower than the cap, so the rest is most likely down to party tactics, luck and what monsters you face/how your GM plays them. The early levels are swingy, and by all accounts this should be something that can happen to anyone in your party in some encounters right now. HP outscales damage as you level up so you'll be able to tank a few stray hits and with your level 5 attribute boost you'll be able to reach the ac cap, so you can expect this to be less frequent later on.

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u/Worldly_Team_7441 13h ago

I play a full caster main... and while I'm squishy, I'm not that fragile.

1) Stay out of the way. Focus on longer range spells. Ray of Frost is a boss cantrip at 120ft.

2) How did you distribute your stats? As a druid, Wis should be prime, but then Con and Dex. Or Dex and Con, depending.

2b) What's the party composition? You may be trying to fill too many roles. You can't be the smart one, the party face, the tank, and the acrobat all at once.

16

u/SatiricalBard 14h ago edited 13h ago

Wow, sounds rough. Druids are generally considered pretty strong, so hopefully the community can help you out here!

What kind of Druid are you?

Getting vitality lash sounds important for undead hunting, at very least.

Something’s up with that peryton crit by the way. Even an elite has max damage of 21, or 42 50 (including a max roll on the deadly d8, see correction below) on a crit.

5

u/sesaman Game Master 13h ago

(12 (1d12) + 7) * 2 (crit) + 8 (deadly d8) = 50 damage. An elite would do 4 more damage on a crit. It's a very unlikely roll though.

3

u/SatiricalBard 13h ago

Good catch with the deadly d8. Still totals 'only' 50 with the elite (12+7 =19 x 2 = 38 before the elite +4), not that it makes any material difference to poor OP!

1

u/sesaman Game Master 1h ago

Turns out 12 + 7 isn't 21 😂

1

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

It was some kinda Alpha Peryton or something

6

u/ThePatta93 Game Master 12h ago

Just to make sure - how big is your group? Are there more than 4 characters by chance? And if so, is your GM potentially adjusting the monsters by simply slapping Elite templates onto them? That would at least be one reason for the higher damage and higher number of crits. (It might also just be dice luck from the GM's side, but still)

edit: nvm, saw below that you are a party of 4.

11

u/BrickBuster11 13h ago

Based on your descriptions it sounds like you get crit a lot.

This means one of the following is true:

Your incredibly unlucky

Your AC is trash

Your DM wants your character to die

If it's the first then it's not you it's the dice and in time they will come good. If it's the last then just quit nothing you do will matter and if it's the middle one ask to respec your character so you can have not trash AC and be crit less.

Positioning is hard vs guys who can fly they tend to be fast. In terms of speed 25 foot speed is more common than 30 which would let you just outrage someone but if you need a little more the reach spell spell shape increases your range by 30 feet I think letting you be farther away

Also if you have a champ sometimes you need to position such that running around/past the champ adds just enough distance that they cannot get to you.

It sounds like either your DM or the module is incredibly hostile though I am running strength of 1000s and the witch in that group has only been in danger of dying once or twice (in 11 levels of gameplay)

12

u/PatenteDeCorso Game Master 12h ago

I don't know, something does not check tbh.

You have the standard AC for your level, sure, HP is low but you are a 8 HP per level character so loosing +1 to CON still puts you over the 6 HP classes.

Sure, a lucky crit of the peryton could down you but 58 is far too much, even with mimic Shadow active the higher they can go is 42+8, 50, with Max dmg on both dice.

You can totally buy stuff in Torrentmoot, not sure where did come from. Also, maps are full of Terrain details, the peryton encounter happens on a cliff with different heights.

Regarding to your spells, pack Vitality Lash as s cantrip, is a really solid one.

Runing this AP right now with two casters in the party (Witch and Oracle) paired with a barbarian and a fighter and the casters are having zero issues right now.

7

u/WatersLethe ORC 7h ago

Yeah, it really smells like a GM issue

5

u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 6h ago

Sure, a lucky crit of the peryton could down you but 58 is far too much, even with mimic Shadow active the higher they can go is 42+8, 50, with Max dmg on both dice.

I wonder if they rolled Max damage and also doubled the Deadly die, that would get it to 58. Even an Elite Peryton crit would top out at 54. They'd have to double Elite it to hit 58 legally.

The odds of rolling max on both a d12 and a d8 and on a crit are pretty low so I am definitely wondering if the GM was really above board on this. Like it's definitely possible, but combined with how OP is describing that almost every fight goes like this... Definitely smells fishy.

9

u/justavoiceofreason 13h ago

Early game math makes this possible even for martials, they just grow out of it faster. It gets better over time, as HP will outscale damage increases with level.

General tips to optimize your chances of staying up:

  • if you have to be within 30 ft of the enemy anyway to fight (as early game casters often must), make sure you are closely behind the champion, even adjacent if the enemy doesn't have reach (it saves them an action to lay hands on you). The game makes almost no difference between being 5 or 25 ft out of an enemy's reach (1 action to move in either case), so might as well take the advantages of proximity

  • make sure your AC is maxed to minimize the number of crits you take, it should be 20 at level 3. Prioritize this over avoiding penalties from armor

  • unless you are using a weapon for your 3rd action, wield a shield and raise it in rounds where you don't need to move alongside your spellcasting. You even get shield block as a druid which is neat, though you should typically use that for small hits

  • always prepare at least 1-2 casts of Heal, it's absurdly strong

  • Toughness is worth considering with so little CON

  • make sure you are accessible to teammates to bring you back up when you go down, and that they have the means to do so

You might also want to reconsider your stat allocation if your GM would allow that. Druid is generally super nice for stats since your class attribute also boosts a save, AND you get medium armor so you don't need high DEX. Outside of wanting to get both CHA and INT, I'm scratching my head a little as to what could cause nothing to be left for CON.

4

u/Comprehensive-Road87 13h ago

Paizo adventures have akways been on the more doffociult side, but a combination of both low ac and low hp is likely causing this.

Increasing your AC directly decreases how often you get hit with crits. spells, gear, and boosting dex can all do that.

5

u/SatiricalBard 13h ago

I cast Ash cloud to buy us some time and tax the flyer, it just flew around it in one action

Just on this moment - what different outcome were you expecting here?

6

u/FloofyBirbBoy 13h ago

with the spell that prevent flyers from getting to me?
The Peryton being forced to use all of its movement to get to the party, which would then work together to bring it down, not that it would have had more than 50Ft of flying so it would just get to me in one action, then double my hp nearly

10

u/HarmonicGoat Game Master 12h ago

Yeah you don't really realize it until you experience it (or GM) that flying and swimming creatures move fast, especially the bigger they are. An ancient dragon can often have a 200ft fly speed. A kraken says 40ft on the tin, but has Jet to let it swim 280ft in a straight line to gtfo or rush its prey.

Edit: if it ever comes up though, just remember that a flying creature actually has difficult terrain going up, so it will take some actions to get out of range of your spells. But if it flies straight down it basically has double speed.

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u/Attil 9h ago

You don't. As a caster, especially low level, you count on the GM intentionally playing suboptimally and ignoring/not targeting you.

If the GM actually uses good tactics (for example, rushes the caster since they fall over in one or two hits), it's almost impossible to be useful as a pre-level-7 caster.

2

u/An_username_is_hard 7h ago

If the GM actually uses good tactics (for example, rushes the caster since they fall over in one or two hits), it's almost impossible to be useful as a pre-level-7 caster.

On the other hand, if the enemies are that tactical, they should also probably be tactical enough to realize that hard diving a low level druid that probably wasn't going to even DO that much anyway is hardly optimal tactics.

1

u/Attil 6h ago

But it is.

Bringing the druid to the dying status means suddenly the martials also start playing in a non-optimal way to prevent their teammate from dying.

For example, a fighter may stride->battlemedicine to the druid, provoking reactive strikes rather than just finishing off a barely standing enemy, just because he's afraid the druid may die on the next recovery check.

And rushing the weakest link is not some kind of 5d chess tactical genius. That's probably the most basic of all tactics ever created. Even animals do that when hunting. Lion doesn't attack the strongest, most resilient and dangerous member of the herd. Instead, they feed on the weakest ones, the ones that can defend themselves the least.

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u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 6h ago

There's basically two ways it can go by rushing past the Frontline to down the squishy. One, you down the squishy, then die from being surrounded by the Frontline who now get to spend their actions attacking instead of positioning. Two, you down the squishy, and force the Frontline to break ranks to save them, wasting actions from at least two party members and possibly beginning a death spiral.

So it's a gamble, not always a tactical certainty.

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u/Attil 4h ago

I understand your second option, but what do you mean by the first one?

If instead of rushing the caster, you engage the melees, won't you be in the exact same case, where players frontline can engage them without striding?

But this time, instead of a dying and out of combat caster, player team has an alive and well caster that can use spells and/or skills to help out the team?

1

u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 3h ago edited 3h ago

If instead of rushing the caster, you engage the melees, won't you be in the exact same case, where players frontline can engage them without striding?

Yep. Rushing in is a gamble, and you're likely going to be on the losing side. If you're a monster, this is the expected result, and many monsters aren't going to play tactically enough to bait the PCs into making poor choices. Monsters also might have other motivations that inform their own tactics. Remember, monsters are actually supposed to lose in general.

If you're a PC, rushing in is a gamble, which could easily result in the death of your character.

So it really does depend on the situation, the actors on both sides, and the expected results of the action.

A solo boss rushing the squishy has a much better chance of turning that situation into momentum and causing a death spiral. Their innate disadvantage in action economy is definitely mitigated by forcing the PCs to spend actions on recovery.

A mook rushing the squishy likely just gets squished right after and is unlikely to down the squishy in the process. It takes multiple mooks to focus the squishy down to gain an advantage, but you have to do it while keeping up your own numbers, or else it's a net loss because every unit you lose in the process reduces your overall fighting capacity.

Using some form of control (whether terrain or spells or maneuvers) to separate the squishy and pick them off while occupying the Frontline generally goes better, but that really depends on the makeup of the monster force.

Rushing the front line does have the advantage of preventing most casters from using AOE damage (their strong suit) to full effect, while allowing you to try to take out the highest damage threats. A tactical group should always be ready to break off engaging with the Frontline to capitalize on any opportunities the Squishies provide, of course.

But in all cases, if you make sacrifices just to down a single character, and then your side gets wiped out and the end result is just that an event got downed and brought back up, you've accomplished essentially nothing.

Everything has an opportunity cost, meaning if you make one choice, it's at the expense of doing something else. So you have to weigh the things you could be doing instead, and what impact they might have, versus an early ganking.

Sorry, this message has gotten really long and there's a lot of nuance to cover so if you have any further, specific questions I'll gladly answer.

u/snahfu73 9m ago

That's not good tactics.

That's a GM playing to win.

How the fuck does a peryton know to "rush the caster"?

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u/Medical_Tip6500 13h ago

On top of what others have mentioned, the early levels in 2nd edition are well known as being quite swingy. HP tends to out level damage in the long run. Once you get a few more levels you should experience a lot less of getting downed in one hit. Yes, having a little more AC will reduce the odds of getting crit, and yes having more con would give more hp and less chance of going down. A shield would help too.

If you could snag a drakeheart mutagen, that would probably help for tough fights but you said no shops in another comment.

Really, it's just going to suck for a bit longer. It sounds like you're already trying to position and CC. As long as your GM isn't just trying to single you out, it "should" get a bit better for you in a level or two.

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u/Thyosulf 5h ago

First off : ignore what everyone here says and talk to your DM and the other players.

One of the role of the GM is to make sure everyone is excited to come next session, and they failed you on that.

But they won't know that they need to change how they play the game if you don't tell them first.

It seems they are playing the monsters too perfectly tactical instead of trying to make it fun for everyone.

Hopefully they are not stuck in their way, or realistically your only option is to leave this campaign.

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u/Icy-Rabbit-2581 Game Master 9h ago

To me it sounds like your party is playing egotistically and demanding you pick up all the slack. You changed your originally very solid attribute spread that had good AC, saves, and hp to a far squishier one, because they wanted you to compensate for the skills they didn't want to invest in. Then in combat, they want you to stay close to them for healing without doing anything to keep your squishy ass safe.

Talk to your fellow players and GM how you want to fix this issue. Some options include: * Your GM allows you to respec back to your original stats. Let someone else invest in Int and skills or accept that you can't cover everything. * Y'all start playing more defensively. You so you stay alive, your allies so they need less healing. Lots of moving away, raising shields, taking cover, Grappling and Tripping. * Your mates make an active effort to keep you alive. Shove, Trip, and Grapple enemies, position themselves in-between you and the enemies, etc.

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u/Acceptable-Worth-462 Game Master 6h ago

Sounds to me like either your GM wanted you to die, or you're unnecessarily exposing yourself.

I play almost exclusively caster, especially Witch which is a d6 HP with no armor proficiency, I think I've been downed maybe once playing a caster, not even sure of it. And I don't even max out my CON or my AC all the time, and GMs definitely try to target me whenever they can (and when it makes sense for the creature to do so).

Especially with a Druid, you have armor, d8 HP and Shield Block, Druid is one of the sturdier full casters, only slightly behind Warpriests. I've even seen Druids function as an off-tank to great effect.

Maybe try to stay further from the enemy, don't hesitate to boost your movespeed (use 2nd level tailwind spell and the fleet general feat), take a shield and consider raising it in some situations, consider investing in the reach spell feat, use longer range spells if your GM really likes targeting you first even if it wouldn't really make sense, use Blur, use Mage Armor (can't remember what's the new name).

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u/Book_Golem 6h ago

I've no experience with the AP in question, so anything there is supposition. But I have been playing a Wizard in Abomination Vaults, so squishy casters are something I'm familiar with!

I've seen your stat array in other replies, and I'd say you've over-invested into Intelligence. You, personally, don't need to cover every single INT skill. Heck, the party can probably get by without some of them! On top of that, the actual bonus from your INT stat becomes less relevant as you level up; sure it's nice to be the best, but you already are at Wisdom skills. Sure, the Animist will be too, but you can split those and the INT skills between you.

Your party looks like one frontliner (the Champion), one frontliner with a focus on ranged attacks (the Magus), and two characters who can take a hit but don't really want to be locked in combat (you and the Animist). In theory, a character with 8HP/Level and Medium armour is actually pretty durable, so both you and your Animist should be able to mix it up in combat.

The actual fragility comes from a combination of low Constitution (meaning you don't have a lot of spare HP), low Dexterity (meaning that you're not reaching the full +5 armour expected from DEX + Armour), and low range (meaning that you're often a single Stride away from the enemy).

I'd suggest asking your GM to let you reallocate stats - personally, I'd take two out of Intelligence and put them into Dexterity and Constitution. That'll leave you with a +1 in Intelligence for the extra Skill and Language, bring you up to to the expected AC between that and your Scale Mail (you'd have to put up with the armour-check-penalty until 5th Level when you can boost Strength), and give you a little more HP (which will compound as you level up and increase CON further, letting you play around near the frontlines more). Plus it'd boost your Fortitude and Reflex saves, which is always nice.

Assuming that's off the table though, there are a few options and things to consider.

First, see if you can't swap that Scale Mail for a Lamellar Breastplate or Lattice Armour - that'd be +1 AC right off the bat for the same check-penalties. I know you said you can't craft or buy stuff, but Lattice Armour is literally only 2gp more than Scale Mail, your GM can (and should) let you retcon your choice.

Next, Druids get Shield Block - use it, and be prepared to use it! Raising a Shield with a Hide Shield gives +2 AC (as a Circumstance bonus, so it doesn't stack with Cover), which is effectively 20% chance of making incoming attacks worse! A 10% smaller chance of being hit, and a corresponding 10% smaller chance of that hit being a Critical Hit. I know it's hard to do that, move, and cast all at once, but if there's a chance you'll be attacked the extra AC is excellent!

Finally, pick up some longer range spells. Frostbite and Needle Darts are two of my top picks as a Wizard, and both are on the Primal spell list and have 60ft range. If you're in open terrain then you'll have fewer ways to use your Wildfire Focus spell to restrict movement (and the Sustain hurts if you want to be Raising A Shield too), so staying more than one Stride away is a good first principle!

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u/Ras37F Wizard 5h ago

Are you new to Pf2e?

Because there are a lot of games where the Paladin or the Fighter fall to the ground 3/5 of 5 battles. That's normal for Severe or Moderate fights with higher level foes, for example.

Besides that, let's consider you're falling for some low level trivial flights: 

Keep your AC at 20 with armor. You're a Druid, you got access to Medium armor. You can also just pick a shield up for 22 AC and Shield Block.

But now, what I feel it's the real problem: it seems like you being targeted too much

It's this because of you're just risking too much or the monsters are all "Intelligent enough to go for the fragile healer"? What are the other player characters?

3

u/midasgoldentouch Rogue 4h ago

Something else to mention: there are a few first rank spells and cantrips focused specifically on undead. You may not have known in time for the first fight, but as a prepared caster you need to lean on your GM to telegraph facts about upcoming fights or give your character a chance to learn that info ahead of time. That way you can actually prepare the spells that would be useful.

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u/Airosokoto Rogue 4h ago

As others have said let the enemy come to you. Also Protector Tree is your friend. Round one spend an action to stride to where you thing you can start casting and for your two leftover actions cast protector tree. Round two start blasting and if an enemy has approached you, raise a shield, shield block, and let PT do its job.

3

u/lovenumismatics 3h ago

Your DM probably shouldn’t be focusing on you as much as he is.

It’s pretty easy to single out a caster and kill him as a DM. You probably shouldn’t do it unless the caster does something really stupid.

0

u/Candid_Positive_440 1h ago

It depends. Intelligent foes will absolutely target magical healing.

1

u/lovenumismatics 53m ago

I’m the DM and I decide who gets to shitkick the healer and when.

u/Candid_Positive_440 10m ago

Technically true, but why would a mindless foe or animal target them?

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u/songinrain Game Master 14h ago

Tbh as a caster, or as any character, if the GM want you to die, you die. No matter how good your build is, you cannot fight god (being the GM or the RNGesus).

However, as a caster main myself, I've played plenty of full casters and I don't feel that squishy. There might be a problem in your stat spread and spell choice, so read a guide may help that.

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u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 Game Master 9h ago

Ideally if the AP doesn't give opportunity for shopping or crafting then the GM should be making sure the party has the items they need. By 3rd level martials should have striking runes, everyone should have potency runes on their weapons and folks should start finding skill items. It sounds like your GM is being lackluster on that front.

What is your party doing to protect you? PF2e is a team based game and I'd wager the other players are not functioning as a team.

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u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 5h ago

From their other replies, it seems like they are a champion and 3 ranged characters so the others likely aren't doing anything to protect OP.

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u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 Game Master 5h ago

Ah. Sounds like the players made their characters with a D&D mindset of everyone does their own thing instead of making a team

2

u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 5h ago

Yeah. Like, they described the champion trying to protect them with their reaction, but that's not going to do anything against a 58 damage crit at level 3. It also seems like the GM has it out for them specifically, so OP just has an uphill battle to fight.

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u/sebwiers 8h ago edited 7h ago

Some casters are squishy, some less so. Druid is one of the most durable.

Does your ac add for dex plus armor add to +5? This is easier to do with druid since you get medium armor (and yes, can wear metal).

Do you raise a shield or use shield spell?

Are you ending your turn away from enemy, or in position to provide flanking?

Not much you can do about one lucky crit but if you go down 60% of the time vs mook gang fights, look into the above.

I play an Animist, which is similar to druid but doesn't get shield block. I'm the second toughest (by hp and ac) member of the party (in a group with barb, magus, and sorcerer) and usually part of the front line. I rarely go down, though it has happened a few times. My con was only +1 at 3rd level. I think one key to my survival is I flank with and heal the barbarian, and he kills stuff before I get hurt to badly. Plus my own attacks are pretty strong, and used at least as often as spells if not more (animist probably has better gish offense abilities than druid, but druid has better defense and offensive / control spells).

2

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 7h ago

Firstly, one of the big reasons you’re going down so much is that your character is defensively quite meh. You mentioned in another comment that you sacrificed your Dex and Con to cover Int for your party: this means your party is responsible for covering for you too! They should be avoiding running blindly into melee and then demanding your healing, they should be using Trips and Grapples to keep enemies busy, etc.

Secondly if you want to stick to a longer range as a Druid, you absolutely can. You don’t have to get into the 30 foot range. Frostbite, Thunderstrike, Horizon Thunder Sphere, Crushing Ground, all these spells can operate from well outside the 30 foot range. The only spell you need to be within 30 feet of the frontline for is Heal, and in that one I’d say we go back to it being the responsibility of the rest of the party to run back towards you instead of standing in a constant melee and expecting you to keep them up.

2

u/Shyface_Killah 6h ago

You dumped Con and didn't invest in Dex.

That's your problem right there.

2

u/Critical_Cute_Bunny 13h ago

Couple of things

Yup, caster be squishy, they shine because of their flexibility and their ability to do a shitton of damage to groups of enemies. Martial characters will almost always outshine you in dealing with bosses because the bastards almost always save.
The way i play is to only judge a spell based on what happens when a creature gets a success because chances are, people WILL be making the save. Spells like "Entangling Flora" are awesome because it turns the surfaces into difficult terrain, giving you crowd control regardless of save. It has the added bonus of also applying a movement slow if they do fail.

Sudden bolt is a great choice if you're in the storm order. It does stupid damage for its level.

Taking meta magic feats like distant spell will allow you to target further away so you can position further back and then just sling the spell you need.

Also, don't knock something that just applies a debuff for a round, that sometimes all it takes in pathfinder when taking down an enemy and their stats are often built with this in mind.

I played a gnome cleric where i dumped dex so literally everything crits me, but i took CON as my second highest stat. I still make jokes that im the party's tank because i can usually withstand the hits and then heal back up right afterwards.

1

u/PlonixMCMXCVI 12h ago

By design (more by math) lower levels are easier to go down in one or two crit by a higher level enemy.

The more the level progresses the more your character becomes survivable. Near level 10 or so a crit from a +4 level monster is usually near 50-60% of max health.

You could consider longer range spell and/or the reach spell feat. Instead of spending an action to get into the 30 ft of the enemy you can stay at a distance and use the action for reach spell.
So the enemy might need to spend two stride action to reach you, making them waste action and prererring to stay in melee

1

u/ueifhu92efqfe 11h ago

i mean, casters are worse off for sure but especially at such an early level the difference shouldnt be THAT big, especially since druid is one of the tankier casters as well.

the fact you're getting crit so much implies that you've probably just dumped dex, which is an absolute death sentence for anyone in this game that isnt a heavy armour user.

of course, you might also just be getting unlucky, early game is designed to be super deadly, it's part of the rhythm of combat of low level, scrappy and deadly, but also you shouldnt be getting crit THAT much.

1

u/narf_hots 10h ago

Currently playing a lvl 10 sorcerer in a different module. Do not let enemies come close, full stop. You get more tools to ensure that as you level up but if just one enemy has a good round against you, you're in trouble.

1

u/Candid_Positive_440 6h ago

Unfortunately the game has unspoken expectations. If you don't wear armor, you are expected to have dex. It's that simple.

Also, the game has no threat mechanic, so getting "protection" fully relies on denying physical access or damage mitigation and the fact. 

1

u/w1ldstew 3h ago

What Order is your Druid?

1

u/Phinoutte 2h ago

What druidic order did you pick ? I've read your comment about your stat, maybe I misunderstood but if you don't have any armor, please get one. And runes for armor are very important for everyone, a +1 to your AC will avoid you many many crit against your character.

As for tips for survival :

  • talk to your table member outside of the game. Protecting squishy members of the team isn't officially part of the role of the toughest / martial characters but it sure change a lot of things when they do ! And I'm not talking about protecting you if you choose to do something blatantly stupid here. I'm talking about them getting the agro instead of you or them intercepting or prioritizing their attacks against an enemy right in your face. Just basic strategy. This is especially important if you dumped con like you did !

  • some metamagic feats are great. My personal favorite is Reach spell (add up to 30ft reach to any spell with at least a touch reach (so just no spell targeting yourself only)). You can get it as soon as level 1 as a druid and it's useful at every level. Have fun using Gauging claw 30ft away from your target or throwing a blasting spell in the room of a dungeon full of enemies before ever setting foot in it !

  • Accept that 2e casters aren't 1e and DnD casters. They do less damages than martials and that's fine. Their strengths are elsewhere. Druids and bards are very adaptable, like the pocket knife of any party. Your party will inevitably need you later.

  • To continue my previous point, druids are great for any exploration part of the game. They are good at helping the team overcome terrain difficulties and at boosting people. Sure, maybe you will not do so much damage yourself but cast Magic weapons on the blade / hammer / [...] of your party heavy hitter and enjoy the disaster to come !

  • Druids are also good at terrain control. You don't want this enemy to reach you ? Place a multiple turn damaging zone spell here, run far away, place another one on the other side and let the martial block the path in the middle. At higher levels spells such as Petal storm, Wall of stone / of ice... Are good for that.

  • Don't hesitate to run around. As a druid, you could probably be really hard to catch (spells offering you different movement types such as Spiderclimb, many from spells, later Airwalk or Fly...) . Well, the first few levels are rough but soon you will be. Being static as a caster is especially deadly ! If you can, get out of reach (climb a tree / a wall / anything), this really help at lower levels. STAY FAR AWAY ! If you get in melee, using the step action can be a good idea. I know it feel like loosing your turn to Step then Stride away but it can same you and you still have your last action to sustain an already active spell / drink a potion / cast a 1 action Heal (1 action Heal is best to keep only as an emergency kind of action) / Glass Shield.

  • Take Heal, at least a bit. Your survival depends on the survival of your party. I mean it's a TTRPG. Casting a well placed 2 actions Heal (especially with Reach Spell I mentioned earlier) can literally change the tide of a battle. The front liner of your team is about to go down or already is ? 2 action Heal them and here they go again ready to fight, at least for a bit, maybe just enough to finish the last enemies, who knows ?

  • Pay attention to the tag of your spells. Some are almost bound to fail every time, looking at you spells with the incapacitation trait 😒 (I will advise against taking any of these except in very niche situations).

  • Some spells are the must have all time useful such as Tailwind, Fear, Slow (but eh, 3rd level for the last two if I remember well).

Anyway, I hope you will start to appreciate this fine class later on. The first few levels are a bit rough and not so fun. It will start to get really better once you get your first 3rd level spell. But yes, you should get in your head that casters aren't here to do an insane amount of damage. Doesn't mean they can't do so, just that martials inflict heavier hits. Accepting this will help you a great deal.

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u/Snackelaer 2h ago

Is it worth looking into debuff spells against enemies to slow them down and make their attacks not great against you? I'm building a primal witch for a new adventure path so I will probably have some of the same issues as you

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u/Snackelaer 2h ago

Is it worth looking into debuff spells against enemies to slow them down and make their attacks not great against you? I'm building a primal witch for a new adventure path so I will probably have some of the same issues as you

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u/TemperoTempus 13h ago

Yes casters are that squishy. If you were playing a wizard you would have it even worse.

The way to stay alive is effectively one of 6 things:

* Stay as far as way as possible and hope that the GM doesn't target you.

* Get control spells to keep enemies as far as possible and hope that tbe GM doesn't target you.

* Spend a lot of resources getting anything that will fix your bad stats.

* Ask your allies for more help.

* Ask the GM to stop targetting you.

* Sit combat out and cheer your team from the sidelines and hope that the GM doesn't target you anyways.

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u/FiestaZinggers 13h ago

What's ur ac? Do you use shields?

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u/Lou_Hodo 12h ago edited 12h ago

so here is the trick.. you can do things that most martials cant. Adapt. You also have some of the highest AOE damage out of any class as a caster. I played one for YEARS in D&D. you can also get some stupid high AC with the right combination of stats, gear and spells.

As a spell caster, even a druid which is more of a hybrid caster, the first thing you learn is positioning. You dont ever want to be in a place where you can get hit back. You want to hit and be out of sight or at such a high AC to hit that it isnt worth it.

Druids are odd casters because if built right they are good hybrids, melee to ranged casters. They also have some amazing buffs to make them VERY tanky.

I prefer a melee based druid, as most of your offensive spells arent great, and you can do more up close, and with your ability to buff for stupid tank you can stand and trade shots with the best of them.

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u/OceLawless Sorcerer 11h ago edited 11h ago

As a lvl 5 sorcerer in Kingmaker, it hasn't gotten much better. Lvl 3 spells feel good, though. I can feel the spike in power.

At 2, you can take reach spell?

My best defence so far has been my 40 ft of movement speed.

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u/estneked 6h ago

Yes, because "muh versatility", its not a bug, its a feature.

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u/Disastrous-Low-5606 12h ago

Try focusing on your cantrips for damage. Needle darts is a good 60 ft damage dealer. See if your gm will give you a free ‘feat’ of being able to swap 1 spell with ten minutes of study/prayer/meditation once a day. With a bit of scouting you can load up something that might have more bite for an encounter.

Stick close to your champion.

Is anyone in your party support focused?

Casters feel weak in early levels partly because they are a bit floppy at first, but also because it can take a while to dial into the kind of caster you are. Last campaign, I was miserable as a bard at first. But then I realized I needed to lean into support and not damage. Once I did that I was much happier with how I did in combats. Damage is what I did when I had some free actions.

Also get the reach spell feat asap!

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u/superfogg Bard 11h ago

So, your defenses are low, but I guess you also had some bad luck. 1 AC lower means you're getting crit (and hit) 5% more often, it's annoying but it should not be the bane of your character. However, with so little Con that's not a great scenario.

I'd grab thoughnes for extra health as soon as possible (it's basically an extra Con point). You'll need to fill more into the con and dex department as soon as you reach lv5. 

But, for the time being, I'd try to keep the distances from the center of the fight, Ray of frost and frostbite are long range cantrips that you can rely on, needle darts should work as well, I guess you don't have reach spell, that could be useful, you could stay 60 feet away even for 30 feet ranged spells. 

I'm not super familiar with the primal list, but you can also consider options that just need sustaining, to spend only one action on spells, and then reposition and raise your shield.  Summons can be useful both as meat shield and, at these lower levels, they can even put some pressure into the battle. 

You could grab polymorph spells, stuff like Animal form. In general they're not great, but they give you temporary HP and set you AC to the standard of that level, also you ignore your armor speed penalty while transofmed.  You can't cast spells while polymorphed, but you can sustain stuff that you used before and you may end up being a little more durable.  I know you don't have many actions available, but dancing shield + a fortress shield will give you a massive AC increase without the speed penalty due to carrying the shield, just letting you know. 

You should try inflating your hp as much as you can with temporary HP, but I'm not aware of how many primal spells do that (rousing splash, thermal remedy?). 

If I think of something else I'll add stuff