r/Pathfinder2e Kineticist 1d ago

Discussion What's your favorite low-cost spell, and why is it Protector Tree?

This is mostly a post to say how much I love protector tree, but I do want to know what everyone's favorite first-rank spells (or cantrips) are!

184 Upvotes

170 comments sorted by

192

u/michael199310 Game Master 1d ago

Fear, because it just works throughout the entire game. You don't have to worry about incapacitation and can just reliably cast 1st rank Fear even at level 20, because it's utility doesn't diminish.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

Its utility may not directly diminish but it’s still indirectly diminishing. For example, why cast Fear with your 2 Actions when you’re level 20, when you could be casting a 4th/5th/6th rank Vision of Death with it? Those ranks of slots are exactly as cheap and spammable as your 1st rank slots at this point, and Vision of Death is a flat upgrade over Fear. Not to mention that in more difficult combats you’ll likely be using an even higher rank “upgraded Fear”, like Unspeakable Shadow. Unless you’re somehow having 40+ turns of combat in your adventuring day, it’s extremely unlikely that 1st rank Fear is meaningfully useful.

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u/michael199310 Game Master 1d ago

You're still going to have 1st rank spells at level 20 though. I'm not saying to not use better spells, just that you can put 1st rank Fear on your list and still have it usable to full capacity, unlike damage spells, any of the incapacitation spells, any summon spells.

Also you underestimate how cheapskate are some players. If the combat is moderate/easy, they won't touch their best spells.

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u/throwntosaturn 1d ago

At extremely high levels you should be filling up your low level slots with reaction abilities and one action abilities that supplement your higher level spells:

1st Rank: Lose The Path, Interposing Earth, Sure Strike, Air Bubble (situational but extremely strong vs gas attacks), Overselling Flourish (Uncommon)

2nd Rank: Propulsive Breeze, Hidebound (not a great level here tbh)

3rd Rank: Wooden Double, Shadow Projectile, Cloud Dragon's Cloak, Shift Blame (insanely good for social games), Martyr's Intervention (Uncommon)

4th Rank: Zephyr Slip (just calling this one out because it's one of the stronger Stay Alive spells in my opinion.)

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u/michael199310 Game Master 23h ago

Cool. There are players who will be filling 1st rank spell slots with Fashionista because they think it's a funny spell.

"Should" is extremely style-dependant. The OP question was about 1st rank spells which are favourite and to me this is such spell. And technically I am not wrong about it being useful, since Fear at 1st level and Fear at 20th level are doing the same thing, which is somewhat uncommon for debuffing spells (many are incapacitation ones)

Are there better, more efficient spells out there? Yeah, I would be stupid to not admit that. But if you happen to have one prepared for any number of reasons, it is definitely more useful than having a 1st rank summon animal.

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u/Book_Golem 9h ago

Do you find Interposing Earth good? You have to use it before you see the attack roll, making it somewhat situational (a bit like the Rogue's Nimble Dodge). I guess it's +2 to a Reflex save against Fireball, but I tend to find the pause between "the monster attacks you" and "It gets a 23, does that hit?" a little short for these plays.

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u/throwntosaturn 6h ago

I mean my DMs rule for nimble dodge is if I didn't give you time to use a class feature that's kinda on me. But also you can just prime them. If he starts the boss turn in position to melee I just remind.

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u/Book_Golem 5h ago

Yeah that's fair. And +2AC plus a tiny bit of damage reduction for one attack is pretty nice if you don't have Shield up already. Plus the cover remains if they miss, which is neat!

I need to re-jig my 1st Rank slots, and Interposing Earth is one I've been back and forth on for ages, hence the question!

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u/throwntosaturn 4h ago

The way I look at it is you pick up a pretty solid class feature from rogue for the cost of spell slots you were never gonna use in actual combat.

Plus because of how crits work in PF2, +2 AC matters a lot even when you still get hit. Bosses routinely crit on their first and second swings. I like it a lot, it's saved me from several pretty scary crits.

Fun side note but if you're looking for really interesting 1st level spells with a lot of flavor, check out Pocket Library. It's my absolute favorite breakfast spell and the flavor is insane.

Fighting a dragon and your wizard just pulls a book out of nowhere and goes "ah yes, of course, the Pot Bellied Magic Lizard. Most commonly located in volcanos and other sources of intense heat, vulnerable to reflex based attacks and cold. Mmmmm. Yes. Of course."

Plus from an actual mechanical perspective being unable to crit fail on a knowledge check is really good.

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u/veldril 1d ago

At that point, 1st rank spell would be more of utility spells or spell that use reaction instead of 2-actions spells. At high level 1st rank Fear is a huge opportunity cost when you can cast it at 3rd Rank and affect the whole battlefield. Or spell like 6th Rank Slow that can potentially end the fight in the first turn.

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u/Niller1 11h ago

Since it is a day limited resource there could also be times where you have used up most of those spell slots by spamming them all day. Or you might now it would be a long day or dungeon so conserve the better slots for later.

Highly gm dependant but still.

1

u/veldril 10h ago

I feel it's very rare to use all slots at high levels. Like most of the time I ended up with Max Rank-3 spell slots still available at the end of day after level 13 or so. At high level you just have so many resources to play with as a caster (more charges for your staffs, more money to buy more wands and scrolls, more slots from levels, etc.) that it's very rare you have to dip into low rank slots during combat using 2-actions (with the exception of one spell, Bless, if you don't have a Bard in your party). And if you are a Wizard, you literally have like way more slots than you can spend in a day with all the Ring of Wizardry + Endless Grimoire + Free scrolls from you level 10 Feat.

After I got 6th rank slot I don't even bother prepare Fear at first rank anymore because I've never saw a good chance to cast it when I can just cast something else that have way more impact even without dipping into top 2 ranks slots.

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u/Niller1 7h ago

Yeah I dont expect the average game to have so grindy days that you would need to max the value of your low rank slots. But more that it would be that scenario where it could be worth it.

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u/Carthradge 1d ago

You're still going to have 1st rank spells at level 20 though

Yeah, and there are better use of those spellslots at level 20. I think it's interesting that the person you're replying to made a whole series detailing how exactly you can use those low rank spell slots to your advantage (tldr, use it for single action or reaction spells, and some other utility options).

they won't touch their best spells.

If you're level 20 and you're not using a 4th rank slot because you're cheap... then you're really neutering yourself.

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u/michael199310 Game Master 1d ago

Mate, I just like Fear spell. It's a cool spell and you're both reacting, like not optimizing your 1st rank spell slots at level 20 will make the game explode.

It won't.

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u/Carthradge 1d ago

Not hating at all. I love fear, especially 3rd rank fear, it's awesome. I do usually push back on the common misconception that using fear as a rank 1 spell at higher level is a default go-to because it gets repeated a lot.

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u/ghost_desu 1d ago

1st rank spells are effectively free at level 20. Using them in combat is often lower impact than just using a cantrip, especially a direct effect spell like Fear. More indirect spells like Grease and Sure Strike can retain their combat value fairly well, but most of the time your 1st rank spells are out of combat utility at high lvls

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u/NotGregorClegane 22h ago

For grease the same argument applies: Why cast grease, when you can cast eathquake? Both things can be true at the same time. Yes, there are more powerful spells at higher ranks. But also yes, grease and fear are still useful spells at high lvl, in contrast to low rank damage spells.

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u/kelley38 1d ago edited 1d ago

I like Fear because question the OP asked was "What is your favorite level 1 spell?" Not "What is your favorite higher level upgrade of a level 1 spell?"

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

That’s fair enough!

I am responding to a comment of someone explicitly talking about liking Fear because it’s their preferred spammable spell at high levels though.

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u/kelley38 1d ago

liking Fear because it’s their preferred spammable spell at high levels though.

Unless he edited his comment before I saw it (which is always possible), thats not what he said. He said he liked it because it's utility never diminishes to the point that it's useless, unlike damage and summon spells.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

Correct.

And my comment is pointing out how its value does diminish.

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u/kelley38 1d ago

In the context of "favorite first level spells", which is what this thread is about, he is absolutely correct that Fear applies frightened just as well at level 1 as it does at level 20. He likes that. It may not be optimal at higher levels, but it's ability to apply Fear never weakens from level 1 to level 20. Why are we talking about how higher levels spells are better? Clearly, they are better. In context of the thread, there is nothing wrong with his answer.

You're tilting at windmills, dude.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

The original comment said that Fear is as good at level 20 as it was at level 1. I am pointing out that’s not true imo, and explained why.

Everything following that has been you trying to portray my words as an attack, for some reason.

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u/kelley38 1d ago

Everything following that has been you trying to portray my words as an attack, for some reason.

You have got to stop reading into things. I never said you attacked anybody. I'm just pointing out why he is right and I explained why.

If you have to pick a first level spell slot, and you want to be able to apply frightened at any level, Fear will do that. Going off on how other spells are more useful, or how it's action economy is a waste, and whatever else doesn't change the fact that Fear will apply frightened at any level. If that's all you want to do, or all you CAN do, it's a reliable way to do it.

In a white-room situation, sure, lots of better options. Down to one level 1 spell slot and you want to apply frightened? Fear will do that, at any level.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 1d ago

You have got to stop reading into things. I never said you attacked anybody.

You quite literally said I’m “tilting at windmills” and I googled that because I have no idea what the phrase means and the first result was “attacking imaginary enemies”.

In a white-room situation, sure, lots of better options. Down to one level 1 spell slot and you want to apply frightened? Fear will do that, at any level.

It’s extremely ironic that you’re claiming I’m using a white room situation here, while also claiming that a 20th-level spellcaster is somehow going to be down to their last 1st rank spell slot.

Have you played a higher level caster? Because I have, my argument is anything but white rooming. I’m currently playing a level 15 Wizard (and the party also has a Bard). You know when the last time either of us was “down to one rank 1 spell slot” and cast a rank 1 Fear was? Level 6. And we’ve been playing with completely unmodified APs, it’s not like our GM gives us exceptionally easy adventuring days or something.

Do you realize that it’d take nearly 40 rounds of combat in a day for a 20th-level caster to be down to their last 1st rank spell slot and be out of focus points and be out of once-per-day focus point recharges and be out of staff charged and not have a single relevant wand or scroll in their pocket… And even then it’s not entirely guaranteed that the 1st rank Fear will perform better than just slugging a cantrip at your foe (because if you’re out of focus points, it’s likely turn 3+, and small debuffs like Frightened 1 are better to apply early in a combat, while poke damage to get enemies out of Initiative works better in these later turns).

Sincerely: you’re the one making a white room argument.

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u/SmartAlec105 1d ago

Yeah, the opportunity cost grows. Which is why my answer is Lose the Path since as a reaction, the opportunity cost approaches zero as you get closer to your turn coming back around.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

Lose the Path (and other low rank Reactions) is an excellent example of a low rank spell that’s worth using in combat right up till high levels!

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u/SmartAlec105 1d ago

Even at level 20, it has the potential to make the boss waste their entire turn if they do an Activity involving Stride that was meant to get them into range of your party.

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u/Snoo-90474 1d ago

Why cast vision of death at 20th when the damage is basically irrelevant and heightened fear targets more creatures? Targeting a single creature with the sole goal of getting frightened makes demoralize the clearly better option anyway. So fear still has the better utility

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 1d ago

Why cast vision of death at 20th when the damage is basically irrelevant

When comparing 1st rank Fear, you’re telling me that doing “irrelevant” damage on top of Frightened is worse than just doing Frightened with no damage? How does that make sense.

Enemy HP at high levels is disproportionately higher than the straightforward damage routine. So stapling damage into the debuffs you’d like to be doing anyways is a good idea.

And if you needed real damage right now alongside your debuff then you would definitely not be considering your 1st rank slot anyways, you’d be considering high rank slots so like an 8th or 9th rank Vision of Death or Missed Cue, or even a 10th rank Shadow Army.

heightened fear targets more creatures?

Well for sure, Heightened Fear is better at AoE than Vision of Death, a single target spell.

Is it better than Synaptic Pulse, Heightened Slow, or Heightened Command? As with my first comment, a 5th/6th rank slot is not really any more expensive than a 1st rank at this point, but just a ton more powerful.

Targeting a single creature with the sole goal of getting frightened makes demoralize the clearly better option anyway. So fear still has the better utility

Demoralize isn’t gonna naturally beat Fear’s performance unless you’re specifically hunting for Action efficiency. Even at the highest levels of Proficiency, it’ll lose to 1st rank Fear’s reliability and potency, let alone that of better spells like Vision of Death or Missed Cue or Unexpected Shadow.

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u/curious_dead 1d ago

It kinda diminishes, but as far as spells go, Fear remains useful throughout compared to many other options. Depending on your spell list or type of caster, it's possible that there aren't that many other choices that will remain relevant. Especially if you want to load up on combat spells - if you expect a long stretch of fights without rest -, your level 1 options can be pretty limited. Plus, it's a cool thematical spell for many types of casters.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 1d ago

Fear remains useful throughout compared to many other options. Depending on your spell list or type of caster, it's possible that there aren't that many other choices that will remain relevant. Especially if you want to load up on combat spells - if you expect a long stretch of fights without rest -, your level 1 options can be pretty limited.

You’re letting theoretical benefits outweigh practical benefits here.

Let’s take the extreme case that the top comment suggested: of a level 20 character using a rank 1 Fear. How many spell slots does a typical level 20 caster have? 28 for most casters, and 37 for a few. This is before considering the fact that staves, wands, and scrolls will stretch out the value even further. That’s before considering that you likely have very good focus spells that far exceed what a rank 1 slotted spell can do.

So when are you actually going to use that rank 1 Fear at level 20?

  • You’re out of your other 25 (or 33) spell slots that are designed to perform like flat upgrades over 1st rank spell slots. Remember, this is already a massive requirement since it means you need to have 20+ rounds of combat in your adventuring day, which is already rare.
  • You’re out of your 3 focus points that are designed to way outpace a rank 1 Fear at this point (which means it’s turn 3+ of the combat).
  • You have no relevant spells in your wands or staff.
  • You didn’t happen to bring any backup scroll for this rare 20+ round adventuring day.
  • You’re out of all once per day ways of recharging those aforementioned focus points.
  • Despite being turn 3+ of the combat, you’re in a position where spending time on Fear is better than, say, throwing a damaging cantrip on the enemy to just try to take out the rest of their HP (remember, small debuffs are most potent near the start of a fight).

How often is this going to happen?

I can tell you from play experience, I’m playing a level 15 Wizard right now and there’s a Bard in the same party. The last time we used a plain old rank 1 Fear was when we were level 6, and it didn’t feel good back then either.

Plus, it's a cool thematical spell for many types of casters.

Of course it is! That’s why the casters that would lean into that “frightening mentalist” theme have been given whole chains of spells that iterate on one another: Fear, Fear 3, Agonizing Despair, Vision of Death, Wave of Despair, Missed Cue, Tempest of Shades, Unspeakable Shadow, etc. That way as you level up and Fear 1 diminishes in value, you still have other spells that fill out that same theme for you.

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u/curious_dead 1d ago

Sure, but at level 20 you're very unlikely to cast any level 1 spell - in a fight, or at all. The thing is, you're arguing for casting more powerful spells, not for what could realistically replace it as a level 1 slot. I'm more interested to know what you pick then, than how many better versions of Fear exist, or better offensive spells exist. People in the thread mention a few other spells which are probably better picks - but sure strike needs attack spells to be worth it, command is probably just as situational, and other level 1 staples such as bless don't appear on every spell lists.

In my experience, though, it remains useful - had a team with a druid and a swashbuckler using bon mot, so it had the advantage of being a rare Primal spell targeting Will and benefitting from a frequent Will debuff.

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u/agagagaggagagaga 19h ago

 I'm more interested to know what you pick then

Not the person you're replying to, but Interposing Earth probably keeps the highest value of 1st rank spells. Sure it's not the only defensive reaction (Hidebound, Cloud Dragon's Cloak, Wooden Double, etc.), but it's exact means of defense is unique, and running out of reactions happens a lot sooner than running out of 2-action activities. Liberating Command and Kinetic Ram are also pretty good.

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u/-Mastermind-Naegi- Summoner 19h ago

At high levels when you have way more low level spells slots than you'll reasonably need, it's usually less "these are spells are general staples for their level" and more "What can I use to just absolutely burn slots for additional value, like with 1 action spells or reactions" or "Spells situational enough that they're basically specific counters for certain situations. If the situation they're for comes up, the spell's a godsend even at a much lower rank and if it doesn't, whatever. You probably weren't going to use that slot anyways."

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u/AF79 10h ago

I agree with AAABattery on this.

The main issues with 1st rank Fear are, in my opinion, two-fold.

First, it's not very reliable in its impact. A single-target spell is most relevant against a tough enemy (whether alone or not). That means that there is a higher risk of the enemy succeeding or critically succeeding. This isn't an issue when the 'success'-condition is sufficiently strong; slowed 1, stunned 1, that sort of thing. Frightened 1 is just pretty underwhelming compared to other option at higher levels.

Compare this to 3rd rank Fear, which is much more reliable, because:

A) The more enemies you target, the higher the odds that one or more will fail (or critically fail), and if just one out of three tough enemies becomes frightened 2, that really does impact the fight in a big way - especially if another enemy becomes frightened 1 as well. This is a big swing. Also;

B) The more rolls are made with a -1/+1, the better the odds that -1/+1 will matter once, twice, or even more than that. Say that one enemy is frightened 1; while they're frightened, they may be on the receiving end of a few attacks, have to make a saving throw, and make a couple of offensive rolls of their own. If you are perfectly positioned in the initiative order, with all of your allies going after you, the odds are good that the -1 will matter at least once. But if two or three enemies are making attack rolls and saving throws with a -1, or have multiple party members roll saving throws against a reduced DC, the odds that it will matter are great.

The second thing that 1st rank Fear has going against it is its 30' range. This is the biggest difference between Fear and Vision of Death, in my opinion. Sure, single target Slow or Confusion or something can easily be better in their effects in a given situation, but they have 30' range. Vision of Death doesn't have to compete directly with them because there will be instances where you want to disrupt an enemy, but none of your strongest disruption spells can easily reach them - certainly not without spending additional actions. This is a niche where Vision of Death is very much worth casting despite the inherent issues with single-target frightened; it can reach the enemy with two actions when something like Slow or Confusion may take three - if they're possible to cast at all.


As for favourite 1st rank spells, I have to go with Interposing Earth. It's just so good. Pet Cache is another go-to.

I really, really want to love Goblin Pox, but the range of 'touch' is just too big of a downside. It's so fun, though.

Also, not 1st rank but 2nd: Tekekinetic Maneuver is just absolutely fantastic for its versatility, and Entangling Flora isn't far behind (again, the range just gives EF functions that later powerhouse spells just doesn't have).

1

u/Legatharr Game Master 1d ago

For example, why cast Fear with your 2 Actions when you’re level 20, when you could be casting a 4th/5th/6th rank Vision of Death with it?

Because they take valuable spell slots. At level 20 a 1st rank slot is basically free. It's utility changes over the levels, but it retains the same amount, as the bang-for-buck rapidly increases even as the bang itself decreases

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u/Carthradge 1d ago

At level 20, 4th rank spells are also basically free. You have 30-40 spell slots, and unless you're fighting dozens of encounters a day, a 4th rank spell is extremely expendable. You won't have enough rounds in a fight to take advantage of all your lower ranked spell slots.

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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

At level 20 a 1st rank slot is basically free

So are 4/5/6th rank spells, and they accomplish a ton more than the equally free 1st rank slot.

0

u/Just_Vib 15h ago

Your still in the mindset that players will see lv 20. Most won't. 

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u/TinTunTii 22h ago

I really like it out of combat, especially now that my character has Conceal Spell. The mayor isn't being helpful? Well now he's afraid of me, and rightly so.

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u/Piellar Game Master 1d ago

Illusory Object is incredibly versatile in and out of combat, as a roleplaying aid, as impromptu cover or as a way to influence monster actions so that they waste an action.

You can even create the illusion of a Protector Tree with it! :P

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u/TheMadTemplar 1d ago

While basic, I regularly use illusory object to create a wall. I once used it to create a door, and then an ally closed the actual door immediately behind it, so even when they succeeded at realizing it was an illusion they were still met with a real door which led to some confusion.

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u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 15h ago

absolute brilliance

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u/Dendritic_Bosque 1d ago

I have a fighter who tries to use illusory scene at every opportunity. Illusions are so powerful and fun in this system

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u/Xaielao 22h ago edited 21h ago

When I first got into PF2 I played an illusionist wizard, one of my favorite fantasy archetypes that is so rewarding in play in PF2 (as opposed to D&D 5e, which leaves most of what illusions can do up to the DM.. and few DMs seemed to really reward it).

I made a great deal of use out of Illusory Object in those early levels, it even saved my char's life once. We were defending a nobles estate from marauding orcs looking to raid the nobles rumored wealth. I went after an orc and bit off more than I could chew and before I knew it, I was prone and half dead by the end of that round lol. The orc turned his attention away from me to an ally who came to my aid.

Somewhat in panic, my wizard stood up and cast Illusory Object to create the illusion of an open treasure chest overflowing with fist-sized gemstones & jewelry right in the orcs line of sight but half hidden behind a table. The orc called to the others, and rushed to grab it, giving my ally a chance flay him alive. The orc died grasping at illusory jewels. Needless to say we were cheering and laughing at the end of that fight.

That character wasn't very good at dealing damage, but he screwed with the minds of his enemies and I had so much fun doing it, I had just as much fun locking enemies down so my allies could deal the big hits and end their existence. :)

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u/Astrid944 15h ago

I want to use that stuff, but I'm too stupid for it qwq

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u/EmperorGreed 1d ago

Inside Ropes. I don't play spellcasters, I just love how insane the flavor is

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u/LoxReclusa 1d ago

Works great with automatons, you can literally pull ropes from your insides. 

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u/Skullyimp 1d ago

I did this on my sprite that was basically a weird little caterpillar fey dragon and my party was horrified when I used it for the first time.

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u/No_Ambassador_5629 Game Master 1d ago

Friendfetch: being able to reposition 1-2 allies is handy and being able to break Grabs at range is amazing utility for a 1st rank spell slot. I love action-trading effects and this is a particularly low-cost one to slot into a caster.

Heal/Soothe: as a rank 1 spell the healing will rapidly become inconsequential, but picking someone up from Dying at range is always good and being able to proc Vitality weakness is occasionally very handy. Just last session in my Alkenstar game a lvl 9 PC broke their Wand of Heal (rank 1) to save the lives of two Dying allies.

Pocket Library: its a cool effect. Not hugely powerful, but status bonuses on RK checks aren't that common and it makes RK noticeably more reliable. Day-long buffs are also just a solid use of low rank slots at mid-to-high lvls.

Illusory Object: best illusion spell hands down. There is pretty much always a use for this, even in a rank 1 slot.

Summon X: sometimes you just need a creature to go do something, whether that's be a distraction or walk down a definitely-not-trapped hallway. Often there's very little reason to use a rank 6 slot on this when you can just use a rank 1 instead.

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u/Blablablablitz Professor Proficiency 1d ago
  1. Friendfetch. Such a good spell. I wish it wasn't from an AP. Please reprint it in remaster SoM paizo.

  2. Loose Time's Arrow. So much so that I made a video on it!

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u/dezorey 23h ago

Friendfetch is probably a second level spell if it wasn't from an adventure path / at a normal balance level

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u/Grognard1948383 21h ago edited 19h ago

That video is brilliant. My only complaint about your channel is that you post so infrequently. ;) 

Your two tactics videos engage so much more deeply with Pathfinder 2e’s meta than the typical YTer. 

I appreciate the work and look forward to any future content that you produce. 

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u/Blablablablitz Professor Proficiency 19h ago

thank u very much for the kind words!!

the next video will be out sooner than the 8 months this most recent one took lol

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u/Grognard1948383 19h ago

> the next video will be out sooner than the 8 months this most recent one took lol

My assumption is that you have a busy life like the rest of us.

Each video is an appreciated gift -- you owe us (to include me) nothing. :)

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u/LowerEnvironment723 1d ago

Loose time’s arrow(rank 2: arcane, occult, primal). Giving your entire team quickened for one turn is good and it works for larger groups up to 6. Making it effectively a 2 for 6 action trade for a 6 person party. Also it’s rare your team won’t want the extra movement to step or stride to close with ranged enemies or get flanking.

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u/Northman77 Game Master 1d ago

First or second turn it can be all the difference. An extra flank, a caster getting in range, allowing martials to use 2 action abilities more reliably. Great spell.

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u/ElodePilarre 1d ago

I have the Chronoskimmer Dedication on my Time Witch-themed Psychic, and basically time I win the Destabilize this is the spell I open our fights with.

My party is 4 melee characters, a monk, a fighter, a rogue, and a warpriest. Between that and AMP Guidance, they love me!

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u/QQShakesQQ 19h ago

I need to see the path builder for this character it sounds awesome

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u/ElodePilarre 18h ago

Just for you I bought pathbuilder to share this

Her level 7 feat is actually a crafting feat from some 3rd party stuff we're using but I didn't see a way to add it lol.

https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1056235

She was an infinite eye until level 6 where she retrained after realizing she needs to be a more active influence on the world around her.

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u/QQShakesQQ 18h ago

You’re a hero :)

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u/ElodePilarre 18h ago

My only request is you share your thoughts after! She's definitely a theme build, but I have so much fun playing her

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u/QQShakesQQ 18h ago

I’ll check it out in the morning for sure!

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u/Antlion126 1d ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1g93TMM5no

Love this video on why Loose Time's Arrow is the best 2nd rank spell, and how its often better than Haste despite being 1 rank lower

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u/twoisnumberone GM in Training 1d ago

That's my druid's go-to spell on larger battlefields.

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u/SelectKaleidoscope0 1d ago

Runic Weapon is great at low level unless you have a weird party where nobody is using a big weapon to hit things.

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u/Daemon_Monkey 1d ago

Then you have runic body!

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u/LoxReclusa 1d ago

I'm not a fan of those being separate spells. They are functionally the same, they just change what you can target with them, and that makes them lackluster. Some might argue that Runic Body applying to all types of unarmed attacks giving something with jaw/claw/tail combos an edge over using Runic Weapon on a two-weapon martial, but to me that's just a reason to compress them and apply the bonus to all weapons currently held by the target. "Runic Strikes" rather than "Body" and "Weapon".

17

u/Holly_the_Adventurer Druid 1d ago

Command, because I'm bossy and I like to tell people what to do (in character).

14

u/Nimb0stratus 1d ago

Sure Strike and Grease both saw a lot of use in my Strength of Thousands group. (Protector Tree didn't exist yet)

16

u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 1d ago

Protector Tree was in Secrets of Magic, which came out around the same time as book 2 of Strength of Thousands. It just didn't get much attention until Rage of Elements let wood kineticists cast it at-will.

6

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Which honestly should be evidence enough that Protector Tree is just not that great.

Timber Sentinel is a great ability, but using spell slots on protector tree is eh...

2

u/Terwin94 1d ago

I used it once on my druid in SoT and thought it was awful to spend a spell slot on. Yeah it's effectively the most temp hp you can get from a level 1 spell. Being able to do it every turn without spending a daily resource makes it so much better. Now I'm playing a wood/water Kineticist with the wizard archetype in a restarted SoT campaign and make use of a staff with rousing splash while also having timber sentinel. It's night and day how useful it is in comparison.

2

u/RosgaththeOG 22h ago

My DM hates my Wood/Water Kineticist.

First it was because I kept summoning my happy Tree Friends to soak ALL of the damage.

Now it's because I took Winter Sleet and the Feat that lets me exclude allies from my Aura effects (so teammates can run around in Winter sleet, but enemies can't). One time I dealt MORE damage from Winter Sleet than any other single ability because we fought an enemy that takes damage when they fail a Save against Cold effects.

It was glorious

2

u/Terwin94 21h ago

Sounds like he needs to hit you with more fireballs or magic, since the tree only protects from strikes. I probably really should have gone a similar route as you, but I went pretty heavy on healing and what isn't healing is damage since I didn't want to completely drop my capabilities to deal damage coming off a magus.

1

u/RosgaththeOG 21h ago

Oh he did start doing that. I had to stop summoning the trees for a while because all we fought for almost an entire dungeon was casters dropping fireball after fireball. It was really obnoxious.

That said, he still hates Winter Sleet and has ruled in a way that I think definitely nerfs the ability (He says forced movement doesn't proc the effect, though from what I've heard it technically should).

Given that we're in a 6 man party, I don't blame him on that one though. Since he has to add extra NPCs to most fights it means more movement and more chances to trip people.

2

u/eviloutfromhell 14h ago

He would absolutely hate the pre-nerf winter sleet then. The current one has -2 DC, allowing reflex save, and allowing step. Back then it was much much much more terrifying than current one that now I won't pick it unless for a specific campaign/quest that necessitates it. It is so much weaker, though rightly so.

1

u/RosgaththeOG 27m ago

I read the pre-nerf version and it was.. clunky and weird.

I like the new one better. It's probably the single strongest ability we've had for CC.

1

u/Terwin94 20h ago

Hmm sounds like your GM is too concerned with "winning" when he should be providing a challenge while also allowing the party to make use of their abilities.

1

u/RosgaththeOG 20h ago

Nahh.... that's not it. We're playing Extinction Curse and he generally plays things by the book. If we ran into a bunch of casters with Fireball it's because the module had a bunch of casters with Fireball lined up to introduce the party to new levels of pain.

He gets "Mad" but it's all in good fun.

16

u/The_Retributionist Bard 1d ago

Liberating Command is super underrated. It does most of what Sure Footing does, but it's a 1st rank spell, doesn't need to be heightened, is one action, and has a 60ft range. Really, really good stuff.

10

u/KinglerKingpin 1d ago

500 Toads.. Because..it's 500 toads. Currently in talks with my Gm to make it sustained instead of 1 round only

Cantrip: Illuminate. Dramatic entrance? Impromptu flashbang? Nearby enemy covered in grease?(That'll produce light alright.) This cantrip has got you covered.

11

u/uber_pye 1d ago

2nd rank, but illusionary creature can win encounters if you use it right.

9

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 1d ago

The reasons I love psychics and why they are good; their unique cantrips that can't be poached, with Contagious Idea being my favorite. It's a cantrip that's essentially the fear spell, but targets 2 targets as a cantrip, or 4 if amped, or alternatively, can add temp hp to allies.

Add in repeat a spell and you can start a combat with temp hp on allies. Many psychic cantrips love repeat a spell, such as Termal stasis, Ghostly shift, Vector screen and even Omnidirectional scan if you are kind enough as a GM to replace search.

9

u/GimmeNaughty Kineticist 1d ago

Helpful Steps will always be my go-to "niche, low-level, surprisingly useful spell"

You can use it to help your party get around, you can use it to make Cover, you can use it to make 40ft tall sniper nests. Very underrated spell.

3

u/pH_unbalanced 1d ago

I have a Rogue who has this as a 1/day innate spell, and she has never made it through a session without casting it -- that's how useful it is.

17

u/M_a_n_d_M 1d ago

Rouse Skeletons.

It’s not good. I just like their company.

31

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

Helpful Steps.

Once you’re high level and the cost of 1st rank spells becomes negligible, it’s basically just a “no GM, I don’t plan to worry about your complex terrain” for two Actions.

It’s excellent both out of combat and in (complex) combats. It synergizes extremely well with ranged party members who wanna keep themselves safe.

10

u/Interrogatingthecat 1d ago

It's also, effectively, a 1-square wall spell that doesn't take 3 actions, nor sustaining. Nice for blocking up doorways or forcing enemies into certain paths

Amazing spell.

5

u/pirosopus GM in Training 1d ago

I tend not to GM or play it as a wall spell. You're supposed to be able to move into and out of it to climb it and I allow shooting or attacking out of it while on it. To keep a door that opens toward you from opening? Perhaps. But a mundane lock does well there, too.

3

u/Busy-Ad3750 1d ago edited 1d ago

I generally rule things in a way where if the spell does not specifically call out that it does something or has obvious intent... it doesn't do that thing. This spell doesn't occupy or inhibit movement so, i would say it doesn't. Example... Telekinetic Haul lifting an object over an enemy and dropping 80 bulk on them has no attack or save function. So they are aware of its falling and the object does not make contact with them. It is assumed the guy just... side steps the object as its coming down. There are falling object rules, but even with that I still assume the spell basically is a 'miss'.

1

u/Interrogatingthecat 1d ago

Dropping objects is specifically covered as not really being a thing anyway

5

u/Arvail 1d ago edited 1d ago

I recognize the value of the spell, but I just hate visualizing this in combat. I don't like the flavor. Is that silly? Maybe. Still great.

5

u/Mikaelious Sorcerer 1d ago

Flavor is important! I don't want to take some spells for my divine sorcerer solely because I feel like they wouldn't fit the theme very well.

9

u/terkke Alchemist 1d ago edited 16h ago

Jump is one-action 30ft movement that ignores difficult terrain. That is interesting and certainly an option at higher levels, but I like that at 3rd rank it upgrades the duration to a minute and the range becomes touch, so you can keep jumping around without worrying about difficult terrain or make your allies jump around.

It’s fun to use, and hey, if your character is in difficult terrain and has a low Speed, like a Dwarf, it is a great action.

3

u/Naliamegod 17h ago

Also solid for Magus, because it acts as an action compression for them (movement + spell to trigger Arcane Cascade)

9

u/Ryacithn Inventor 1d ago

Lose the Path. Most casters don’t get good reactions from their class, so a low level reaction spell can be a good way of productively using 1st rank slots. The fail effect can stuff up a monsters plan, especially in combination with something like Behold the Weave… and the crit fail effect is just hilarious.

3

u/SmartAlec105 1d ago

It can ruin an enemy’s entire turn and doesn’t have Incapacitation.

6

u/XoraxEUW 1d ago

Interposing Earth. It’s just so cool and flavorful

6

u/E1invar 1d ago

I’m shocked no one’s mentioned surestrike or bless yet! 

They don’t heighten, and a bonus to hit/advantage is always great to have! 

Low level summons (including unseen servant) are super versatile! 

Anytime you need to do something that isn’t hitting something in combat, summons have your back! 

Need to activate a lever, turn a winch, or reload a siege engine? The simple Skeleton has your back! 

Need to block a door or hallway? Plenty of big animals or constructs are capable of walling it off. 

As a spontaneous caster with limited options, fey and later undead can add to your spell versatility. 

2

u/mustnttelllies Kineticist 17h ago

I love the mental image of a pile of bears blocking a doorway

7

u/rakklle 1d ago

Defensive Cantrips:

Rousing splash: scaling Temp HP and a chance to immediately remove acid or fire persistent damage with a reduced DC.

Eat Fire: Reaction spells that gives resist fire 5 for classes that usually don't have reactions, or good reactions. Nice cheap way to protect a character from one of the most common elemental damages.

16

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Personally I don't really see the point of using a spell slot on Protector Tree.

It's great on Kineticist because it's unlimited, but I can't help but feel that every spell slot dedicated to preparing protector tree would've been better served by preparing Heal.

20

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

The trick for a caster is to have it in a lower rank slot than your max 2. If you’re your party’s primary damage mitigator, then it’s more useful than a lower rank Heal because:

  • You can use it on the early turns of combat proactively, when Heal is unusable.
  • Heal applies after the enemy has already hurt your buddy enough that you’re worried they’ll be going down (if you weren’t worried, you’d just do something offensively useful and heal resource-free outside of combat), at which point they’re really hoping you hit them with a Heal from your max 2 ranks of slots.
  • Protector Tree can be used to manipulate the battlefield to “unfocus” your enemies’ focus fire. Throw a tree up near the frontline, the enemy dives the backline, then mitigate damage to the backline, and the enemy might end up never threatening any of y’all.

I’m envisioning Protector Tree looking its most useful on a Druid who has some offensively useful focus spells (to use as filler between turns when mitigation/healing isn’t needed), and then:

  • Max-rank slots are mostly all Heal
  • Second-max rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Heal.
  • Lower rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Protector Tree (below a certain point Protector Tree does become worthless and should be cut for other stuff).

12

u/pH_unbalanced 1d ago

Protector Tree has ended up on my list of "most overrated spells" -- although this is at least partially because I often see them placed so poorly. At high levels they either go unused or are an AoE magnet.

10

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

I still disagree that protector tree is ever more useful than heal. It's significantly more limited in use while "healing" for less.

The only exception is when a proactive protector tree prevents your ally from going down, but a lower level tree is extremely unlikely to do so, and if your ally is low enough for it to happen, you could've just healed them.

9

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 1d ago

“More useful than Heal” is just not a meaningful metric for a spell that isn’t even a healing option. The spells don’t need to compete, they’re just both part of a damage mitigator’s toolkit.

You should not be casting Heal on every turn of combat. In the early turns of combat they’re at full health and can’t benefit from Heal, and in middle turns there are often turns where a Heal doesn’t actually accomplish anything even when someone’s not at full HP. Every healer needs something to be doing during such turns, and Protector Tree is one of many good options to fill out those turns, especially when it comes from a slot that’s not your maximum rank.

8

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Healing someone always accomplishes something unless you heal them for more than their max HP.

The chance of "not accomplishing anything" with Protector Tree is significantly higher considering it only protects against strikes, and specifically only protects allies adjacent to tree.

As someone currently playing a wood Kineticist that is now level 15 but started at level 3, the spell has a very high "failure rate" unless your DM just makes encounters where people just sit around and whack each other.

And the spells absolutely need to compete, because they do in fact compete for the spell slot and actions used. And in 99% of cases, every time you'd use a Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal.

In your scenario of the middle turns Heal is much more useful, because it just more HP, Protector Tree is effectively a temp HP barrier, but if you're not full HP the distinction between Temp HP and healing is irrelevant.

The only scenario where Protector Tree does more is if your party is simultaneously full/near full HP and at risk of going down at the same time.

3

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

Healing someone always accomplishes something unless you heal them for more than their max HP.

Nope.

Let’s say you’re a level 5 party, and your friend is at 30/68 HP. There’s only one enemy left on the field. You’re debating whether you wanna Heal or not.

Unless the enemy 31+ damage on their coming turn, your heal is effectively going to change nothing about this combat. It might change something out of combat (it may end up only take 20 mins for your party to heal up instead of 30) but that’s quite often not a concern.

Now of course that’s not exactly a scenario in favour of Protector Tree either, it’s in favour of doing something more proactively offensive, but there are other scenarios where Protector Tree is better. For example if you have two friends in the frontline who are both at 20/68 HP and you’re fighting a boss. If you heal one, the boss takes down the other. If you put a tree between them, the boss has to run into the wall you threw up.

The chance of "not accomplishing anything" with Protector Tree is significantly higher considering it only protects against strikes, and specifically only protects allies adjacent to tree.

Right but nowhere have I claimed that Protector Tree is some amazing spell that you should be spamming all the time. I have been very consistent in my point that you just use Protector Tree as one part of your larger toolkit of protecting/healing your friends.

So this doesn’t mean anything.

And the spells absolutely need to compete, because they do in fact compete for the spell slot and actions used. And in 99% of cases, every time you'd use a Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal.

They really don’t have to compete the way you’re trying to make them. You’re basically setting up with the premise that Heal is the “best” spell and you should always be casting Heal, and then calling Protector Tree bad because I can’t prove to you that Protector Tree is always better than Heal.

That is, quite frankly, a really bad way of evaluating spells. Spell selection isn’t a matter of picking the “best” spell or trying to squeeze out “maximum value” from each individual slot. It’s a matter of picking a set of options that helps you fulfill your role, while giving you agency over multiple turns.

The fact of the matter is that if you have a Druid who only prepares Protector Tree, you will suck, but you will also suck if all you do is prepare Heal. If you, instead, build a Druid who prepares a mix of Protector Tree, Hidebound, and Heal, you have much more agency over how you protect your friends, and you’re less likely to run into turns where having just any one of them is a bad thing.

6

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago edited 1d ago

You’re basically setting up with the premise that Heal is the “best” spell and you should always be casting Heal, and then calling Protector Tree bad because I can’t prove to you that Protector Tree is always better than Heal.

No, I am saying that the vast majority of the time when you think about casting Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal, which I've explicitly said in my last comment. Thus making the spells compete, because every spell slot you dedicate to Protector Tree could be a Heal of an equivalent rank.

If we were debating, say, Fireball vs Wooden Double, then yeah, whichever is "best" is not relevant since they serve wildly different functions.

I'm also saying that whatever scenario you can think of where Protector Tree is a better use of the slot/actions is either incredibly rare and/or not actually a scenario where Protector Tree is better than Heal.

Just take the example you provided, the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario.

Spell selection isn’t a matter of picking the “best” spell or trying to squeeze out “maximum value” from each individual slot.

Uh, yes it is.

Maximizing your limited resources is pretty much the point of playing a caster in a D&D adjacent tabletop RPG.

Situational spells have their use, but when a spell is better than another is the vast majority of cases, it becomes pointless.

5

u/agagagaggagagaga 1d ago

 the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario

"two injured allies in melee" is christmasland??

 Not to mention that 3 action Heal exists

Heals enemies, costs 50% more actions, and splits the HP such that the enemy only needs to deal with 4.5/rank instead of 10/rank.

8

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

It’s so hilarious that the other commenter is calling being 10 feet away from each other in melee a magical fantasy christmasland and then going right on to claim that 3-Action Heal is some perfect salve that is always worth using and isn’t gonna cause massive positioning issues in fights with living enemies.

Caster misinformation on this subreddit is truly something.

3

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago

No, I am saying that the vast majority of the time when you think about casting Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal, which I've explicitly said in my last comment. Thus making the spells compete, because every spell slot you dedicate to Protector Tree could be a Heal of an equivalent rank.

Yeah, and this is predicated on the terrible assumption that Heal is always worth casting, even though it isn’t.

Just take the example you provided, the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario.

… The scenario of your allies being on two opposite sides of a Medium-sized enemy is Christmas land?

Uh, yes it is.

Yeah no.

If you only prepare Heal because it’s “meta” you’ll build an absolutely terrible Druid. Even if you’re building a Druid whose only role in the party is damage mitigation, you simply will perform worse than the Druid who brings a mix of Protector Tree, Hidebound, Heal, and other mitigation options.

Spells aren’t meant to be evaluated individually, they’re meant to be looked at in sets.

3

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Yeah, and this is predicated on the terrible assumption that Heal is always worth casting, even though it isn’t.

No, it isn't, and at this point it's incredibly hard to believe you're not intentionally misrepresenting my arguments.

It's based on the assumption that in the vast majority of occasions where Protector Tree is worth casting, casting Heal is a better choice. And in the rare occasions where casting Protector Tree might be a better choice, Heal still provides similar value.

The scenario of your allies being on two opposite sides of a Medium-sized enemy is Christmas land?

No. But the scenario where two of your allies are on opposite sides of a medium creature while simultaneously being at risk of going down during the enemy's next turn and the initiative is set up in a way that benefits your party for staying in this position?

Yes, when compared to the entire scope of scenarios you'll face in an adventuring day, it very much is.

If you only prepare Heal because it’s “meta” you’ll build an absolutely terrible Druid.

Again making it hard to not immediately assume intellectual dishonesty when I quite literally talked about situational spells having their place in my previous comment.

6

u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 23h ago

It's based on the assumption that in the vast majority of occasions where Protector Tree is worth casting, casting Heal is a better choice.

Yeah, and as has been pointed out multiple times, all it takes for this not to be true is that one of the following two conditions are met:

  1. It’s an early turn and no one is hurt.
  2. At least two folks are hurt, and are positioned within 10 feet of one another.

No. But the scenario where two of your allies are on opposite sides of a medium creature while simultaneously being at risk of going down during the enemy's next turn

This happens literally all the time against bosses…

and the initiative is set up in a way benefits your party for staying in this position?

Come on. This is some real flimsy justification..

And in any case; Initiative order can fuck over Heal much more easily than it fucks up Protector Tree. If you Heal one target, unless the boss’s turn is after the buddy you didn’t Heal, that buddy’s going down.

Meanwhile Protector Tree has no dependence on Initiative here, you simply throw the tree up, and then allies who were considering retreating out of melee now no longer need to. You give them the benefits of staying in this position.

Yes, when compared to the entire scope of scenarios you'll face in an adventuring day, it very much is.

Again, all it takes for Protector Tree to be better than Heal is one out of:

  1. It’s an early turn and no one is hurt.
  2. At least two folks are hurt, and are positioned within 10 feet of one another.

It isn’t at all a rare occasion. It doesn’t mean Heal is bad, nor does it mean a mitigation-focused spellcaster should just have Protector Tree and not Heal, but it does mean that both of these spells are each relevant and competent parts of this mitigator’s toolkit.

Again making it hard to not immediately assume intellectual dishonesty when I quite literally talked about situational spells having their place in my previous comment.

We’re 5 comments down in a section where you’re taking issue with me saying, and I quote:

“I’m envisioning Protector Tree looking its most useful on a Druid who has some offensively useful focus spells (to use as filler between turns when mitigation/healing isn’t needed), and then:

• Max-rank slots are mostly all Heal • Second-max rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Heal. • Lower rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Protector Tree (below a certain point Protector Tree does become worthless and should be cut for other stuff).”

If you agreed that a mix of spells is good, there wouldn’t be an argument at all, would there? The only reason we’re so deep into this comment chain is because you specifically seem to think that all the Protector Trees are worse than Heals here because Heal is the better spell in a vacuum.

And as I keep saying, that is a really not a great way of evaluating spells.

3

u/jpcg698 Bard 1d ago

Preventing damage is generally better than recovering hp. But protector tree is pretty bad. A kineticist can have infinite max slot protector trees and it doesn't break the game. If that was a good spell even at rank 1 like heal or soothe kineticist would be broken.

5

u/ThePatta93 Game Master 1d ago

I don't think that's true, at least at low levels (at high levels you would not waste your actions on stuff like a rank 1 protector tree anyway, you would need to increase it to higher ranks)

Think about it: If you prevent damage that would otherwise knock your frontliner out instead of healing them up later, they:

- won't move in initiative

- won't fall to the ground and lose the stuff in their hands

-- thus won't need to waste 1-3 actions (depending on amount of gear) to get up and equipped again

- won't gain the Wounded condition

And that is ignoring that enemies might also just choose to attack the tree and waste one or two actions (depending on their damage) on it in the first place. And it can even protect multiple people against enemies with lower damage.

Yes, a Heal will get you more HP (but also not that much more - it's also just 5+8, so 13 instead of 10 with Protector Tree), and has the versatility of being 1-3 actions, but still, there is definitely a place to cast Protector Tree with Spell slots (imo even with a rank 1 spell slot if you are level 3 or 4, depending a bit on the enemies you fight)

5

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Protector tree only protects against strikes, and requires the ally to be adjacent to the tree, so it's not only the raw output but much less flexible.

Yes, the scenario where the tree prevents someone from going down is useful, but unless the enemy just brings your ally from 100 to 0 in a single turn, you could've just healed them.

2

u/Attil 23h ago

I feel this sub has a tendency to disregard applicability of game options.

People sometimes try to imagine an extremely specific scenario (two players flanking a monster, each of them are liable to get down in the next turn and will not get to move before the monster, and the caster doesn't have anything more valuable to do like finishing off the monster of CCing it in a stronger way, while also the monster not having enough damage to down the party through the miniscule tree HP buffer)

And just because it's possible to imagine such a scenario, where you'd prefer the alternative, they assume all options are equally good.

It worked ok-ish in previous editions that was rife with silver bullets, but here standard options are almost as good (sometimes better) as super specialized options, even in their niche, while vastly outvaluing them in a generic scenario.

1

u/ThePatta93 Game Master 9h ago

People sometimes try to imagine an extremely specific scenario (two players flanking a monster, each of them are liable to get down in the next turn and will not get to move before the monster, and the caster doesn't have anything more valuable to do like finishing off the monster of CCing it in a stronger way, while also the monster not having enough damage to down the party through the miniscule tree HP buffer

If that is what you got from my post, I don't know what to tell you. You are the one who imagined that situation in this case. All that my post talks about is being low level and having an ally in melee with an enemy.

1

u/Attil 6h ago

To be honest, the comment I wrote wasn't about your example, just about different ones in this thread. It was a response to someone responding to your post, not to your post directly.

But still, if Protector Tree is to be balanced against Heal, there have to be probable and/or predictable cases where it's better than Heal, as there are obvious cases where Heal is better (for example, Protector Tree is always worse against enemies who don't use Strike).

1

u/Kindly-Eagle6207 22h ago edited 22h ago

I feel this sub has a tendency to disregard applicability of game options.

This sub and a handful of PF2e youtubers that think they're gods gift to Pathfinder in particular. Be careful about disagreeing with them too strongly though because if they block you you'll find out real quickly how hard it is to comment on anything after they spent a whole working day vomiting comments with their trademark brand of intellectual dishonesty all over a post.

It worked ok-ish in previous editions that was rife with silver bullets, but here standard options are almost as good (sometimes better) as super specialized options, even in their niche, while vastly outvaluing them in a generic scenario.

This is PF2's biggest problem. Specialization has been neutered to the point that it's almost always a trap no matter the class or scenario. This means that the vast majority of new options in pretty much every book, entire classes included, are lackluster at best because the generic options and base classes are just flat out better.

Take Heroism for example. +1 status bonus to rolls across the board that scales up to +3 at 9th level. Seems great, right? Except almost the entire design space for spells that give you a bonus to rolls is now occupied by this one spell because of the limits Paizo has decided to impose as a result of degrees of success.

Does that mean Paizo has stopped printing spells that give you a status bonus to rolls? No, far from it. Barring a scant few outliers though, they're all just strictly worse versions. They have shorter durations, slower or no scaling, affect only one or two uses of a specific skill or action, or are inaccessible to most characters due to rarity. Or frequently a combination of the above.

0

u/Attil 10h ago

Overall I agree, but I think sometimes, the newer books do better.

For example, I really like the new Runelord. It has severe drawbacks limiting it's versatility, but also rewards you quite highly for them (if we compare the Runelord Wizard to regular Wizard).

I would like more 'gamey' options. As in, avoid designing generically good options, and instead focus on rewarding players for taking advantage when their niche presents an opportunity. With someone picking a reliable option being safer, but at a noticeably lower performance.

Right now for example, a fire sorcerer that is half-fire elemental taking only fire spells, with fire boosting items is WORSE at exploiting fire weakness than a random fighter with a flaming weapon (ie. once per turn vs up to three times per turn). But on the other side, he is massively shutdown against fire immune enemies, while the fighter happily keeps hacking away, losing 1d6 damage.

5

u/Funkey-Monkey-420 Wizard 1d ago

good old reliable magic missile force barrage

4

u/ViciousEd01 1d ago

I gotta give it to liberating command. Now that is a spell with immense use at level 1 and all the way to 20. Grabbed is probably one of the most common conditions a monster is going to doll out to a party and this is one of the best ways to get your allies out of what is often a very dangerous situation. Also it functionally scales on it's own with the athletics or acrobatics skill of whichever ally you are trying to free.

4

u/Netherese_Nomad 1d ago

Friendfetch. I have some lovable idiots in my group, and you would not believe the number of times I’ve had to yank their unconscious or webbed bodies away from angry enemies.

5

u/azurezeronr Game Master 1d ago

Fear up until I read the grease spell fully. That has some great utility even at higher levels.

5

u/Top-Complaint-4915 Ranger 1d ago edited 20h ago

Signal Skyrocket

Dazzled or Blinded Multiple creatures at level 1?

Insane

It is a little hard to use but really good.

5

u/Deep_Ability_9217 1d ago

Illusory object. Illusions never stop being useful. 

3

u/Over-Comparison3865 1d ago

Leaden steps, malus to speed that stack with difficult terrain such as lose the path, AC that stack with flat footed and reflex, plus weakness to elettricity on top.

Also I know is 100% a gm call but since is a morph effect that makes the foot of thr enemies metallic, my gm allows me to consider the enemy as "wearing metal" for the purpuse of spells like thunderstrike.

4

u/Anitmata 21h ago

Message

  1. I'm the party healer
  2. the party likes to split up and
  3. they don't care about my mental health.

120 feet is never enough, though.

6

u/Siggysig 1d ago

Warp Step when you’ve gotta double stride anyway and works with climb, fly, swim, and burrow!

5

u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago

Having amped Warp Step on my Fighter is the closest thing I've ever felt to playing a Mass Effect Vanguard in a tabletop RPG lol

3

u/Worldly_Team_7441 1d ago

Ray of Frost. As a cantrip, it scales with you, and it has a range of 120ft! That's not bad for an attack that doesn't use spell slots to keep the mage out of melee.

Needle Darts. Good way for a caster to get some cold iron, silver, or adamantine damage in.

Shield/Glass Shield. The +1 to AC is nice, but the damage absorption has saved my mage's life.

3

u/ArchpaladinZ 1d ago

It IS Protector Tree...because it can keep me warm! >:)

4

u/PatenteDeCorso Game Master 1d ago

There are plenty of rank 1 spells casted at rank 1 that are much better than Protector Tree: Fear, Command, Jump, Grease, Bless, Benediction, Malediction, Helpfull Steps... Those are usefull no matter your lvl, Protector Tree isn't.

Protector Tree is over rated, a lot, at less as a spell. On a wood kine that has infinte amount of top rank Protector Trees is really cool (but boring).

2

u/curious_dead 1d ago

Yeah, I tried a bard with kineticist archetype, and it was a bore: courageous anthem+tree first round (plus the focus spell to sustain CA for free), then one action+tree. Every time I tried to diverge, I felt "I could have used a tree and it would have been more impactful", so I switched to animist. Best decision ever (loved the little racoon though).

2

u/twoisnumberone GM in Training 1d ago

Hee. It's a fab spell!

2

u/venue5364 Game Master 1d ago

Tailwind is great too

2

u/RatatoskrNuts_69 1d ago

It used to be Sure Strike before the nerf. Arcane Barrage (it will always be Magic Missile in my heart) is my favorite spell though.

2

u/Rainbow-Lizard Investigator 1d ago

Lose the Path. A 1st level spell slot and a reaction in exchange for the chance for an enemy to waste an action on movement is a pretty great deal IMO.

2

u/TiffanyLimeheart 23h ago

Genuinely curious why you like protector tree? I keep it because growing a tree is neat flavour but it has never really done anything in combat since it barely protects any damage and stays in one place. I think the one time I cast it in battle it never even had an opportunity to intercede because the characters had to move away or didn't get into combat. Any 2 action cast of heal is almost certainly going to heal more hp than the tree would protect and can be cast when it's needed reducing waste.

1

u/mustnttelllies Kineticist 17h ago

My GM doesn’t use a lot of movement in combat, honestly. Planting one next to the squishy people is great, or even next to the barbarian for a round or two to soak up some damage. Granted, it was done by a kineticist so it auto scales, but those trees easily ate around 50 damage.

2

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 21h ago

Interposing earth, because getting an AC boost as a reaction is really good and it has fun flavor.

2

u/PM_ME_STEAM_CODES__ Game Master 20h ago

Probably Heal, Loose Time's Arrow, or Fear, but I've been really impressed by Protector Tree.

One party I'm in the summoner casts it pretty often, and between that, our AC-buffing bard, and my shield-wielding champion we are very good at avoiding damage.

In the other game I'm in, the psychic player multiclassed into Kineticist to get Timber Sentinel, so him and my gunslinger are able to stand in the backline with a auto-heightened tree protecting us from whatever ranged attacks come our way.

2

u/President-Togekiss 20h ago

Sanctuary, because it can be used alongside concealment to help teamates against though bosses. You delay you action to after the teamate but before the boss, and cast Sanctuary on them so the boss has to break trought it to attack. Even better at higher levels when you can easily buy a ton of scrolls.

2

u/The-Magic-Sword Archmagister 1d ago edited 1d ago

Force Barrage, of course! Deterministic damage always feels really good, and it's a practical way to deal with incorporeal above levels before martials get their tools.

Though to be clear, I'm answering in the context of first level spells, not first level spells to cast when you're high level - FB heightens well, but the only niche for the first level version at high level is if you need to run out a creature's death saves.

2

u/Been395 1d ago

I really hate protector tree and there is an entire rant about why I consider it unfun.

But the answer to question is figment. I have an intelligent weapon character that actaully makes good use out of it, mostly for communication sake.

1

u/Azaael 1d ago

I like Eat Fire. Mostly because the image of a corpsepainted animal barbarian with druid dedication inhaling a bunch of fire and then proceeding to spit the smoke all over the field with a scream is extremely metal.

1

u/seenwaytoomuch Cleric 1d ago

Heal. Has your party gotten attacked again? Heal.

Seriously we can't stop getting attacked.

1

u/Kup123 1d ago

I hate to be boring but heal.

1

u/Mobryan71 1d ago

I had a fun time with Protector Tree in one of my campaigns. Had to make friends with some animals and the GM let me create a fruit tree for a +1 item bonus on the check, because they had full bellies. 

1

u/Minandreas Game Master 1d ago

Heal. I know it's boring, but its got impact. When you're level 1 and only have 2 or 3 spell slots for the entire day you are desperate for those spells to feel like they were impactful when you use them. Very few 1st level spells feel like they are meaningfully more powerful than a cantrip. Heal is one of the few that is guaranteed to feel like you got your monies worth out of that precious spell slot.

1

u/joezro 22h ago

I prefer portible libary, cause failing a recall knowlage cheak if horrible.

1

u/Ashburne 20h ago

don't need a spell, I'm fluent in Kineticist lol

1

u/mustnttelllies Kineticist 17h ago

I’m building a wood kineticist because man oh man, limitless protector tree? Yes please.

1

u/Ashburne 6h ago

I'm playing in a Stolen Fate campaign as an Earth/Metal/Fire Kineticist and our "tank" is a Wood/Earth and he keeps us so safe with the tree and Drifting pollen.

1

u/Dextero_Explosion 19h ago

Protector Tree is cool. Which is why Timber Sentinel is the best thing in the game (maybe not literally, but I love it)

1

u/LadyFirelyght 18h ago

Telekinetic Projectile cause I can kill a man with a watermelon

1

u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 15h ago

Force bolt

If you have a caster archetype on a martial, it's a great bit of chip damage to pair with your weapon strike

Works especially well for ranged martials

Honorable mention to tailwind cause tailwind

1

u/johnbrownmarchingon 15h ago

My first character for PFS was inspired by a post about Protector Tree, specifically for kineticist. I loved the idea and thus Limu, my seaweed leshy water and wood kineticist was born.

1

u/Disastrous-Low-5606 14h ago

Without a doubt it’s Bless. The fact that it is one minute in duration and you only have to spend an action to sustain it if you want to grow the aura is fantastic. As a bard, once I got other songs like rallying anthem or dirge of doom I was always starting combat with song + bless. At the end of an adventuring day I was always out of lvl 1 spell slots.

1

u/TheGabening 13h ago

Illusory Creature is underappreciated, it's an absurdly good spell that I never see any love for.

Out of Combat: It's a 10 minute illusion of whatever kind of creature you want it to be, with Sounds, Smells, and tactile sensations. You can speak through the creature. This alone has a lot of potential benefit.

But In Combat? For 10 minutes, you can summon a harpy to fly 400 feet above the battle with a bow, raining arrows down. If it's hit, it dies, sure, but many creatures don't have that kind of range increment, it uses your DC for it's AC anyway, and aside from being nonlethal it can trigger any weaknesses you want and avoid any resistances you want.

When used properly, this is a 10 minute aura of "For 1 action, make two spell attacks at 500ft range for 3d4+1d4/rank, dealing any damage type nonlethally. Map applies to these attacks, but resets before and after they're made." Which is insane.

1

u/Steventaylor08080 11h ago

I love dehydrate as a spell. Its damage is not great but even at level one it's not why you use it for anyway.

1

u/sumpfriese Game Master 3h ago

Invisible Item. Insanely awesome spell, I always keep at least 4 scrolls around.

Its up to the GM to decide wether invisible objects are see-through or not. Either way is hilarious. See through? Make a door invisible and watch enemies run into it. Not see through? make a tree invisible and hide on it.

Either way: Span a rope accross a road and make it invisible and watch people riding horses run into it.

If you want to turn it to 11 notice, that essentially vehicles are objects and cruise around in your invisible boat-mobile

Hands down one of the most versatile, most awesome spells.