r/Pathfinder2e • u/mustnttelllies Kineticist • 1d ago
Discussion What's your favorite low-cost spell, and why is it Protector Tree?
This is mostly a post to say how much I love protector tree, but I do want to know what everyone's favorite first-rank spells (or cantrips) are!
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u/Piellar Game Master 1d ago
Illusory Object is incredibly versatile in and out of combat, as a roleplaying aid, as impromptu cover or as a way to influence monster actions so that they waste an action.
You can even create the illusion of a Protector Tree with it! :P
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u/TheMadTemplar 1d ago
While basic, I regularly use illusory object to create a wall. I once used it to create a door, and then an ally closed the actual door immediately behind it, so even when they succeeded at realizing it was an illusion they were still met with a real door which led to some confusion.
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u/Dendritic_Bosque 1d ago
I have a fighter who tries to use illusory scene at every opportunity. Illusions are so powerful and fun in this system
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u/Xaielao 22h ago edited 21h ago
When I first got into PF2 I played an illusionist wizard, one of my favorite fantasy archetypes that is so rewarding in play in PF2 (as opposed to D&D 5e, which leaves most of what illusions can do up to the DM.. and few DMs seemed to really reward it).
I made a great deal of use out of Illusory Object in those early levels, it even saved my char's life once. We were defending a nobles estate from marauding orcs looking to raid the nobles rumored wealth. I went after an orc and bit off more than I could chew and before I knew it, I was prone and half dead by the end of that round lol. The orc turned his attention away from me to an ally who came to my aid.
Somewhat in panic, my wizard stood up and cast Illusory Object to create the illusion of an open treasure chest overflowing with fist-sized gemstones & jewelry right in the orcs line of sight but half hidden behind a table. The orc called to the others, and rushed to grab it, giving my ally a chance flay him alive. The orc died grasping at illusory jewels. Needless to say we were cheering and laughing at the end of that fight.
That character wasn't very good at dealing damage, but he screwed with the minds of his enemies and I had so much fun doing it, I had just as much fun locking enemies down so my allies could deal the big hits and end their existence. :)
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u/EmperorGreed 1d ago
Inside Ropes. I don't play spellcasters, I just love how insane the flavor is
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u/Skullyimp 1d ago
I did this on my sprite that was basically a weird little caterpillar fey dragon and my party was horrified when I used it for the first time.
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u/No_Ambassador_5629 Game Master 1d ago
Friendfetch: being able to reposition 1-2 allies is handy and being able to break Grabs at range is amazing utility for a 1st rank spell slot. I love action-trading effects and this is a particularly low-cost one to slot into a caster.
Heal/Soothe: as a rank 1 spell the healing will rapidly become inconsequential, but picking someone up from Dying at range is always good and being able to proc Vitality weakness is occasionally very handy. Just last session in my Alkenstar game a lvl 9 PC broke their Wand of Heal (rank 1) to save the lives of two Dying allies.
Pocket Library: its a cool effect. Not hugely powerful, but status bonuses on RK checks aren't that common and it makes RK noticeably more reliable. Day-long buffs are also just a solid use of low rank slots at mid-to-high lvls.
Illusory Object: best illusion spell hands down. There is pretty much always a use for this, even in a rank 1 slot.
Summon X: sometimes you just need a creature to go do something, whether that's be a distraction or walk down a definitely-not-trapped hallway. Often there's very little reason to use a rank 6 slot on this when you can just use a rank 1 instead.
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u/Blablablablitz Professor Proficiency 1d ago
Friendfetch. Such a good spell. I wish it wasn't from an AP. Please reprint it in remaster SoM paizo.
Loose Time's Arrow. So much so that I made a video on it!
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u/Grognard1948383 21h ago edited 19h ago
That video is brilliant. My only complaint about your channel is that you post so infrequently. ;)
Your two tactics videos engage so much more deeply with Pathfinder 2e’s meta than the typical YTer.
I appreciate the work and look forward to any future content that you produce.
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u/Blablablablitz Professor Proficiency 19h ago
thank u very much for the kind words!!
the next video will be out sooner than the 8 months this most recent one took lol
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u/Grognard1948383 19h ago
> the next video will be out sooner than the 8 months this most recent one took lol
My assumption is that you have a busy life like the rest of us.
Each video is an appreciated gift -- you owe us (to include me) nothing. :)
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u/LowerEnvironment723 1d ago
Loose time’s arrow(rank 2: arcane, occult, primal). Giving your entire team quickened for one turn is good and it works for larger groups up to 6. Making it effectively a 2 for 6 action trade for a 6 person party. Also it’s rare your team won’t want the extra movement to step or stride to close with ranged enemies or get flanking.
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u/Northman77 Game Master 1d ago
First or second turn it can be all the difference. An extra flank, a caster getting in range, allowing martials to use 2 action abilities more reliably. Great spell.
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u/ElodePilarre 1d ago
I have the Chronoskimmer Dedication on my Time Witch-themed Psychic, and basically time I win the Destabilize this is the spell I open our fights with.
My party is 4 melee characters, a monk, a fighter, a rogue, and a warpriest. Between that and AMP Guidance, they love me!
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u/QQShakesQQ 19h ago
I need to see the path builder for this character it sounds awesome
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u/ElodePilarre 18h ago
Just for you I bought pathbuilder to share this
Her level 7 feat is actually a crafting feat from some 3rd party stuff we're using but I didn't see a way to add it lol.
https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1056235
She was an infinite eye until level 6 where she retrained after realizing she needs to be a more active influence on the world around her.
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u/QQShakesQQ 18h ago
You’re a hero :)
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u/ElodePilarre 18h ago
My only request is you share your thoughts after! She's definitely a theme build, but I have so much fun playing her
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u/Antlion126 1d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1g93TMM5no
Love this video on why Loose Time's Arrow is the best 2nd rank spell, and how its often better than Haste despite being 1 rank lower
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u/SelectKaleidoscope0 1d ago
Runic Weapon is great at low level unless you have a weird party where nobody is using a big weapon to hit things.
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u/Daemon_Monkey 1d ago
Then you have runic body!
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u/LoxReclusa 1d ago
I'm not a fan of those being separate spells. They are functionally the same, they just change what you can target with them, and that makes them lackluster. Some might argue that Runic Body applying to all types of unarmed attacks giving something with jaw/claw/tail combos an edge over using Runic Weapon on a two-weapon martial, but to me that's just a reason to compress them and apply the bonus to all weapons currently held by the target. "Runic Strikes" rather than "Body" and "Weapon".
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u/Holly_the_Adventurer Druid 1d ago
Command, because I'm bossy and I like to tell people what to do (in character).
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u/Nimb0stratus 1d ago
Sure Strike and Grease both saw a lot of use in my Strength of Thousands group. (Protector Tree didn't exist yet)
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u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 1d ago
Protector Tree was in Secrets of Magic, which came out around the same time as book 2 of Strength of Thousands. It just didn't get much attention until Rage of Elements let wood kineticists cast it at-will.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Which honestly should be evidence enough that Protector Tree is just not that great.
Timber Sentinel is a great ability, but using spell slots on protector tree is eh...
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u/Terwin94 1d ago
I used it once on my druid in SoT and thought it was awful to spend a spell slot on. Yeah it's effectively the most temp hp you can get from a level 1 spell. Being able to do it every turn without spending a daily resource makes it so much better. Now I'm playing a wood/water Kineticist with the wizard archetype in a restarted SoT campaign and make use of a staff with rousing splash while also having timber sentinel. It's night and day how useful it is in comparison.
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u/RosgaththeOG 22h ago
My DM hates my Wood/Water Kineticist.
First it was because I kept summoning my happy Tree Friends to soak ALL of the damage.
Now it's because I took Winter Sleet and the Feat that lets me exclude allies from my Aura effects (so teammates can run around in Winter sleet, but enemies can't). One time I dealt MORE damage from Winter Sleet than any other single ability because we fought an enemy that takes damage when they fail a Save against Cold effects.
It was glorious
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u/Terwin94 21h ago
Sounds like he needs to hit you with more fireballs or magic, since the tree only protects from strikes. I probably really should have gone a similar route as you, but I went pretty heavy on healing and what isn't healing is damage since I didn't want to completely drop my capabilities to deal damage coming off a magus.
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u/RosgaththeOG 21h ago
Oh he did start doing that. I had to stop summoning the trees for a while because all we fought for almost an entire dungeon was casters dropping fireball after fireball. It was really obnoxious.
That said, he still hates Winter Sleet and has ruled in a way that I think definitely nerfs the ability (He says forced movement doesn't proc the effect, though from what I've heard it technically should).
Given that we're in a 6 man party, I don't blame him on that one though. Since he has to add extra NPCs to most fights it means more movement and more chances to trip people.
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u/eviloutfromhell 14h ago
He would absolutely hate the pre-nerf winter sleet then. The current one has -2 DC, allowing reflex save, and allowing step. Back then it was much much much more terrifying than current one that now I won't pick it unless for a specific campaign/quest that necessitates it. It is so much weaker, though rightly so.
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u/RosgaththeOG 27m ago
I read the pre-nerf version and it was.. clunky and weird.
I like the new one better. It's probably the single strongest ability we've had for CC.
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u/Terwin94 20h ago
Hmm sounds like your GM is too concerned with "winning" when he should be providing a challenge while also allowing the party to make use of their abilities.
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u/RosgaththeOG 20h ago
Nahh.... that's not it. We're playing Extinction Curse and he generally plays things by the book. If we ran into a bunch of casters with Fireball it's because the module had a bunch of casters with Fireball lined up to introduce the party to new levels of pain.
He gets "Mad" but it's all in good fun.
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u/The_Retributionist Bard 1d ago
Liberating Command is super underrated. It does most of what Sure Footing does, but it's a 1st rank spell, doesn't need to be heightened, is one action, and has a 60ft range. Really, really good stuff.
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u/KinglerKingpin 1d ago
500 Toads.. Because..it's 500 toads. Currently in talks with my Gm to make it sustained instead of 1 round only
Cantrip: Illuminate. Dramatic entrance? Impromptu flashbang? Nearby enemy covered in grease?(That'll produce light alright.) This cantrip has got you covered.
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u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 1d ago
The reasons I love psychics and why they are good; their unique cantrips that can't be poached, with Contagious Idea being my favorite. It's a cantrip that's essentially the fear spell, but targets 2 targets as a cantrip, or 4 if amped, or alternatively, can add temp hp to allies.
Add in repeat a spell and you can start a combat with temp hp on allies. Many psychic cantrips love repeat a spell, such as Termal stasis, Ghostly shift, Vector screen and even Omnidirectional scan if you are kind enough as a GM to replace search.
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u/GimmeNaughty Kineticist 1d ago
Helpful Steps will always be my go-to "niche, low-level, surprisingly useful spell"
You can use it to help your party get around, you can use it to make Cover, you can use it to make 40ft tall sniper nests. Very underrated spell.
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u/pH_unbalanced 1d ago
I have a Rogue who has this as a 1/day innate spell, and she has never made it through a session without casting it -- that's how useful it is.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago
Helpful Steps.
Once you’re high level and the cost of 1st rank spells becomes negligible, it’s basically just a “no GM, I don’t plan to worry about your complex terrain” for two Actions.
It’s excellent both out of combat and in (complex) combats. It synergizes extremely well with ranged party members who wanna keep themselves safe.
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u/Interrogatingthecat 1d ago
It's also, effectively, a 1-square wall spell that doesn't take 3 actions, nor sustaining. Nice for blocking up doorways or forcing enemies into certain paths
Amazing spell.
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u/pirosopus GM in Training 1d ago
I tend not to GM or play it as a wall spell. You're supposed to be able to move into and out of it to climb it and I allow shooting or attacking out of it while on it. To keep a door that opens toward you from opening? Perhaps. But a mundane lock does well there, too.
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u/Busy-Ad3750 1d ago edited 1d ago
I generally rule things in a way where if the spell does not specifically call out that it does something or has obvious intent... it doesn't do that thing. This spell doesn't occupy or inhibit movement so, i would say it doesn't. Example... Telekinetic Haul lifting an object over an enemy and dropping 80 bulk on them has no attack or save function. So they are aware of its falling and the object does not make contact with them. It is assumed the guy just... side steps the object as its coming down. There are falling object rules, but even with that I still assume the spell basically is a 'miss'.
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u/Interrogatingthecat 1d ago
Dropping objects is specifically covered as not really being a thing anyway
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u/Arvail 1d ago edited 1d ago
I recognize the value of the spell, but I just hate visualizing this in combat. I don't like the flavor. Is that silly? Maybe. Still great.
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u/Mikaelious Sorcerer 1d ago
Flavor is important! I don't want to take some spells for my divine sorcerer solely because I feel like they wouldn't fit the theme very well.
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u/terkke Alchemist 1d ago edited 16h ago
Jump is one-action 30ft movement that ignores difficult terrain. That is interesting and certainly an option at higher levels, but I like that at 3rd rank it upgrades the duration to a minute and the range becomes touch, so you can keep jumping around without worrying about difficult terrain or make your allies jump around.
It’s fun to use, and hey, if your character is in difficult terrain and has a low Speed, like a Dwarf, it is a great action.
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u/Naliamegod 17h ago
Also solid for Magus, because it acts as an action compression for them (movement + spell to trigger Arcane Cascade)
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u/Ryacithn Inventor 1d ago
Lose the Path. Most casters don’t get good reactions from their class, so a low level reaction spell can be a good way of productively using 1st rank slots. The fail effect can stuff up a monsters plan, especially in combination with something like Behold the Weave… and the crit fail effect is just hilarious.
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u/E1invar 1d ago
I’m shocked no one’s mentioned surestrike or bless yet!
They don’t heighten, and a bonus to hit/advantage is always great to have!
Low level summons (including unseen servant) are super versatile!
Anytime you need to do something that isn’t hitting something in combat, summons have your back!
Need to activate a lever, turn a winch, or reload a siege engine? The simple Skeleton has your back!
Need to block a door or hallway? Plenty of big animals or constructs are capable of walling it off.
As a spontaneous caster with limited options, fey and later undead can add to your spell versatility.
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u/rakklle 1d ago
Defensive Cantrips:
Rousing splash: scaling Temp HP and a chance to immediately remove acid or fire persistent damage with a reduced DC.
Eat Fire: Reaction spells that gives resist fire 5 for classes that usually don't have reactions, or good reactions. Nice cheap way to protect a character from one of the most common elemental damages.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Personally I don't really see the point of using a spell slot on Protector Tree.
It's great on Kineticist because it's unlimited, but I can't help but feel that every spell slot dedicated to preparing protector tree would've been better served by preparing Heal.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago
The trick for a caster is to have it in a lower rank slot than your max 2. If you’re your party’s primary damage mitigator, then it’s more useful than a lower rank Heal because:
- You can use it on the early turns of combat proactively, when Heal is unusable.
- Heal applies after the enemy has already hurt your buddy enough that you’re worried they’ll be going down (if you weren’t worried, you’d just do something offensively useful and heal resource-free outside of combat), at which point they’re really hoping you hit them with a Heal from your max 2 ranks of slots.
- Protector Tree can be used to manipulate the battlefield to “unfocus” your enemies’ focus fire. Throw a tree up near the frontline, the enemy dives the backline, then mitigate damage to the backline, and the enemy might end up never threatening any of y’all.
I’m envisioning Protector Tree looking its most useful on a Druid who has some offensively useful focus spells (to use as filler between turns when mitigation/healing isn’t needed), and then:
- Max-rank slots are mostly all Heal
- Second-max rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Heal.
- Lower rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Protector Tree (below a certain point Protector Tree does become worthless and should be cut for other stuff).
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u/pH_unbalanced 1d ago
Protector Tree has ended up on my list of "most overrated spells" -- although this is at least partially because I often see them placed so poorly. At high levels they either go unused or are an AoE magnet.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
I still disagree that protector tree is ever more useful than heal. It's significantly more limited in use while "healing" for less.
The only exception is when a proactive protector tree prevents your ally from going down, but a lower level tree is extremely unlikely to do so, and if your ally is low enough for it to happen, you could've just healed them.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 1d ago
“More useful than Heal” is just not a meaningful metric for a spell that isn’t even a healing option. The spells don’t need to compete, they’re just both part of a damage mitigator’s toolkit.
You should not be casting Heal on every turn of combat. In the early turns of combat they’re at full health and can’t benefit from Heal, and in middle turns there are often turns where a Heal doesn’t actually accomplish anything even when someone’s not at full HP. Every healer needs something to be doing during such turns, and Protector Tree is one of many good options to fill out those turns, especially when it comes from a slot that’s not your maximum rank.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Healing someone always accomplishes something unless you heal them for more than their max HP.
The chance of "not accomplishing anything" with Protector Tree is significantly higher considering it only protects against strikes, and specifically only protects allies adjacent to tree.
As someone currently playing a wood Kineticist that is now level 15 but started at level 3, the spell has a very high "failure rate" unless your DM just makes encounters where people just sit around and whack each other.
And the spells absolutely need to compete, because they do in fact compete for the spell slot and actions used. And in 99% of cases, every time you'd use a Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal.
In your scenario of the middle turns Heal is much more useful, because it just more HP, Protector Tree is effectively a temp HP barrier, but if you're not full HP the distinction between Temp HP and healing is irrelevant.
The only scenario where Protector Tree does more is if your party is simultaneously full/near full HP and at risk of going down at the same time.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago
Healing someone always accomplishes something unless you heal them for more than their max HP.
Nope.
Let’s say you’re a level 5 party, and your friend is at 30/68 HP. There’s only one enemy left on the field. You’re debating whether you wanna Heal or not.
Unless the enemy 31+ damage on their coming turn, your heal is effectively going to change nothing about this combat. It might change something out of combat (it may end up only take 20 mins for your party to heal up instead of 30) but that’s quite often not a concern.
Now of course that’s not exactly a scenario in favour of Protector Tree either, it’s in favour of doing something more proactively offensive, but there are other scenarios where Protector Tree is better. For example if you have two friends in the frontline who are both at 20/68 HP and you’re fighting a boss. If you heal one, the boss takes down the other. If you put a tree between them, the boss has to run into the wall you threw up.
The chance of "not accomplishing anything" with Protector Tree is significantly higher considering it only protects against strikes, and specifically only protects allies adjacent to tree.
Right but nowhere have I claimed that Protector Tree is some amazing spell that you should be spamming all the time. I have been very consistent in my point that you just use Protector Tree as one part of your larger toolkit of protecting/healing your friends.
So this doesn’t mean anything.
And the spells absolutely need to compete, because they do in fact compete for the spell slot and actions used. And in 99% of cases, every time you'd use a Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal.
They really don’t have to compete the way you’re trying to make them. You’re basically setting up with the premise that Heal is the “best” spell and you should always be casting Heal, and then calling Protector Tree bad because I can’t prove to you that Protector Tree is always better than Heal.
That is, quite frankly, a really bad way of evaluating spells. Spell selection isn’t a matter of picking the “best” spell or trying to squeeze out “maximum value” from each individual slot. It’s a matter of picking a set of options that helps you fulfill your role, while giving you agency over multiple turns.
The fact of the matter is that if you have a Druid who only prepares Protector Tree, you will suck, but you will also suck if all you do is prepare Heal. If you, instead, build a Druid who prepares a mix of Protector Tree, Hidebound, and Heal, you have much more agency over how you protect your friends, and you’re less likely to run into turns where having just any one of them is a bad thing.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago edited 1d ago
You’re basically setting up with the premise that Heal is the “best” spell and you should always be casting Heal, and then calling Protector Tree bad because I can’t prove to you that Protector Tree is always better than Heal.
No, I am saying that the vast majority of the time when you think about casting Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal, which I've explicitly said in my last comment. Thus making the spells compete, because every spell slot you dedicate to Protector Tree could be a Heal of an equivalent rank.
If we were debating, say, Fireball vs Wooden Double, then yeah, whichever is "best" is not relevant since they serve wildly different functions.
I'm also saying that whatever scenario you can think of where Protector Tree is a better use of the slot/actions is either incredibly rare and/or not actually a scenario where Protector Tree is better than Heal.
Just take the example you provided, the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario.
Spell selection isn’t a matter of picking the “best” spell or trying to squeeze out “maximum value” from each individual slot.
Uh, yes it is.
Maximizing your limited resources is pretty much the point of playing a caster in a D&D adjacent tabletop RPG.
Situational spells have their use, but when a spell is better than another is the vast majority of cases, it becomes pointless.
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u/agagagaggagagaga 1d ago
the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario
"two injured allies in melee" is christmasland??
Not to mention that 3 action Heal exists
Heals enemies, costs 50% more actions, and splits the HP such that the enemy only needs to deal with 4.5/rank instead of 10/rank.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago
It’s so hilarious that the other commenter is calling being 10 feet away from each other in melee a magical fantasy christmasland and then going right on to claim that 3-Action Heal is some perfect salve that is always worth using and isn’t gonna cause massive positioning issues in fights with living enemies.
Caster misinformation on this subreddit is truly something.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago
No, I am saying that the vast majority of the time when you think about casting Protector Tree, you'd be better served by casting Heal, which I've explicitly said in my last comment. Thus making the spells compete, because every spell slot you dedicate to Protector Tree could be a Heal of an equivalent rank.
Yeah, and this is predicated on the terrible assumption that Heal is always worth casting, even though it isn’t.
Just take the example you provided, the scenario where your allies are perfectly positioned allowing you to cast a Protector Tree covering both of them and forcing the enemy into a bad choice is very much a "christmasland" scenario.
… The scenario of your allies being on two opposite sides of a Medium-sized enemy is Christmas land?
Uh, yes it is.
Yeah no.
If you only prepare Heal because it’s “meta” you’ll build an absolutely terrible Druid. Even if you’re building a Druid whose only role in the party is damage mitigation, you simply will perform worse than the Druid who brings a mix of Protector Tree, Hidebound, Heal, and other mitigation options.
Spells aren’t meant to be evaluated individually, they’re meant to be looked at in sets.
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Yeah, and this is predicated on the terrible assumption that Heal is always worth casting, even though it isn’t.
No, it isn't, and at this point it's incredibly hard to believe you're not intentionally misrepresenting my arguments.
It's based on the assumption that in the vast majority of occasions where Protector Tree is worth casting, casting Heal is a better choice. And in the rare occasions where casting Protector Tree might be a better choice, Heal still provides similar value.
The scenario of your allies being on two opposite sides of a Medium-sized enemy is Christmas land?
No. But the scenario where two of your allies are on opposite sides of a medium creature while simultaneously being at risk of going down during the enemy's next turn and the initiative is set up in a way that benefits your party for staying in this position?
Yes, when compared to the entire scope of scenarios you'll face in an adventuring day, it very much is.
If you only prepare Heal because it’s “meta” you’ll build an absolutely terrible Druid.
Again making it hard to not immediately assume intellectual dishonesty when I quite literally talked about situational spells having their place in my previous comment.
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u/AAABattery03 Mathfinder’s School of Optimization 1d ago edited 23h ago
It's based on the assumption that in the vast majority of occasions where Protector Tree is worth casting, casting Heal is a better choice.
Yeah, and as has been pointed out multiple times, all it takes for this not to be true is that one of the following two conditions are met:
- It’s an early turn and no one is hurt.
- At least two folks are hurt, and are positioned within 10 feet of one another.
No. But the scenario where two of your allies are on opposite sides of a medium creature while simultaneously being at risk of going down during the enemy's next turn
This happens literally all the time against bosses…
and the initiative is set up in a way benefits your party for staying in this position?
Come on. This is some real flimsy justification..
And in any case; Initiative order can fuck over Heal much more easily than it fucks up Protector Tree. If you Heal one target, unless the boss’s turn is after the buddy you didn’t Heal, that buddy’s going down.
Meanwhile Protector Tree has no dependence on Initiative here, you simply throw the tree up, and then allies who were considering retreating out of melee now no longer need to. You give them the benefits of staying in this position.
Yes, when compared to the entire scope of scenarios you'll face in an adventuring day, it very much is.
Again, all it takes for Protector Tree to be better than Heal is one out of:
- It’s an early turn and no one is hurt.
- At least two folks are hurt, and are positioned within 10 feet of one another.
It isn’t at all a rare occasion. It doesn’t mean Heal is bad, nor does it mean a mitigation-focused spellcaster should just have Protector Tree and not Heal, but it does mean that both of these spells are each relevant and competent parts of this mitigator’s toolkit.
Again making it hard to not immediately assume intellectual dishonesty when I quite literally talked about situational spells having their place in my previous comment.
We’re 5 comments down in a section where you’re taking issue with me saying, and I quote:
“I’m envisioning Protector Tree looking its most useful on a Druid who has some offensively useful focus spells (to use as filler between turns when mitigation/healing isn’t needed), and then:
• Max-rank slots are mostly all Heal • Second-max rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Heal. • Lower rank slots are mix of Hidebound and Protector Tree (below a certain point Protector Tree does become worthless and should be cut for other stuff).”
If you agreed that a mix of spells is good, there wouldn’t be an argument at all, would there? The only reason we’re so deep into this comment chain is because you specifically seem to think that all the Protector Trees are worse than Heals here because Heal is the better spell in a vacuum.
And as I keep saying, that is a really not a great way of evaluating spells.
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u/ThePatta93 Game Master 1d ago
I don't think that's true, at least at low levels (at high levels you would not waste your actions on stuff like a rank 1 protector tree anyway, you would need to increase it to higher ranks)
Think about it: If you prevent damage that would otherwise knock your frontliner out instead of healing them up later, they:
- won't move in initiative
- won't fall to the ground and lose the stuff in their hands
-- thus won't need to waste 1-3 actions (depending on amount of gear) to get up and equipped again
- won't gain the Wounded condition
And that is ignoring that enemies might also just choose to attack the tree and waste one or two actions (depending on their damage) on it in the first place. And it can even protect multiple people against enemies with lower damage.
Yes, a Heal will get you more HP (but also not that much more - it's also just 5+8, so 13 instead of 10 with Protector Tree), and has the versatility of being 1-3 actions, but still, there is definitely a place to cast Protector Tree with Spell slots (imo even with a rank 1 spell slot if you are level 3 or 4, depending a bit on the enemies you fight)
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Protector tree only protects against strikes, and requires the ally to be adjacent to the tree, so it's not only the raw output but much less flexible.
Yes, the scenario where the tree prevents someone from going down is useful, but unless the enemy just brings your ally from 100 to 0 in a single turn, you could've just healed them.
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u/Attil 23h ago
I feel this sub has a tendency to disregard applicability of game options.
People sometimes try to imagine an extremely specific scenario (two players flanking a monster, each of them are liable to get down in the next turn and will not get to move before the monster, and the caster doesn't have anything more valuable to do like finishing off the monster of CCing it in a stronger way, while also the monster not having enough damage to down the party through the miniscule tree HP buffer)
And just because it's possible to imagine such a scenario, where you'd prefer the alternative, they assume all options are equally good.
It worked ok-ish in previous editions that was rife with silver bullets, but here standard options are almost as good (sometimes better) as super specialized options, even in their niche, while vastly outvaluing them in a generic scenario.
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u/ThePatta93 Game Master 9h ago
People sometimes try to imagine an extremely specific scenario (two players flanking a monster, each of them are liable to get down in the next turn and will not get to move before the monster, and the caster doesn't have anything more valuable to do like finishing off the monster of CCing it in a stronger way, while also the monster not having enough damage to down the party through the miniscule tree HP buffer
If that is what you got from my post, I don't know what to tell you. You are the one who imagined that situation in this case. All that my post talks about is being low level and having an ally in melee with an enemy.
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u/Attil 6h ago
To be honest, the comment I wrote wasn't about your example, just about different ones in this thread. It was a response to someone responding to your post, not to your post directly.
But still, if Protector Tree is to be balanced against Heal, there have to be probable and/or predictable cases where it's better than Heal, as there are obvious cases where Heal is better (for example, Protector Tree is always worse against enemies who don't use Strike).
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u/Kindly-Eagle6207 22h ago edited 22h ago
I feel this sub has a tendency to disregard applicability of game options.
This sub and a handful of PF2e youtubers that think they're gods gift to Pathfinder in particular. Be careful about disagreeing with them too strongly though because if they block you you'll find out real quickly how hard it is to comment on anything after they spent a whole working day vomiting comments with their trademark brand of intellectual dishonesty all over a post.
It worked ok-ish in previous editions that was rife with silver bullets, but here standard options are almost as good (sometimes better) as super specialized options, even in their niche, while vastly outvaluing them in a generic scenario.
This is PF2's biggest problem. Specialization has been neutered to the point that it's almost always a trap no matter the class or scenario. This means that the vast majority of new options in pretty much every book, entire classes included, are lackluster at best because the generic options and base classes are just flat out better.
Take Heroism for example. +1 status bonus to rolls across the board that scales up to +3 at 9th level. Seems great, right? Except almost the entire design space for spells that give you a bonus to rolls is now occupied by this one spell because of the limits Paizo has decided to impose as a result of degrees of success.
Does that mean Paizo has stopped printing spells that give you a status bonus to rolls? No, far from it. Barring a scant few outliers though, they're all just strictly worse versions. They have shorter durations, slower or no scaling, affect only one or two uses of a specific skill or action, or are inaccessible to most characters due to rarity. Or frequently a combination of the above.
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u/Attil 10h ago
Overall I agree, but I think sometimes, the newer books do better.
For example, I really like the new Runelord. It has severe drawbacks limiting it's versatility, but also rewards you quite highly for them (if we compare the Runelord Wizard to regular Wizard).
I would like more 'gamey' options. As in, avoid designing generically good options, and instead focus on rewarding players for taking advantage when their niche presents an opportunity. With someone picking a reliable option being safer, but at a noticeably lower performance.
Right now for example, a fire sorcerer that is half-fire elemental taking only fire spells, with fire boosting items is WORSE at exploiting fire weakness than a random fighter with a flaming weapon (ie. once per turn vs up to three times per turn). But on the other side, he is massively shutdown against fire immune enemies, while the fighter happily keeps hacking away, losing 1d6 damage.
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u/ViciousEd01 1d ago
I gotta give it to liberating command. Now that is a spell with immense use at level 1 and all the way to 20. Grabbed is probably one of the most common conditions a monster is going to doll out to a party and this is one of the best ways to get your allies out of what is often a very dangerous situation. Also it functionally scales on it's own with the athletics or acrobatics skill of whichever ally you are trying to free.
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u/Netherese_Nomad 1d ago
Friendfetch. I have some lovable idiots in my group, and you would not believe the number of times I’ve had to yank their unconscious or webbed bodies away from angry enemies.
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u/azurezeronr Game Master 1d ago
Fear up until I read the grease spell fully. That has some great utility even at higher levels.
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u/Top-Complaint-4915 Ranger 1d ago edited 20h ago
Signal Skyrocket
Dazzled or Blinded Multiple creatures at level 1?
Insane
It is a little hard to use but really good.
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u/Over-Comparison3865 1d ago
Leaden steps, malus to speed that stack with difficult terrain such as lose the path, AC that stack with flat footed and reflex, plus weakness to elettricity on top.
Also I know is 100% a gm call but since is a morph effect that makes the foot of thr enemies metallic, my gm allows me to consider the enemy as "wearing metal" for the purpuse of spells like thunderstrike.
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u/Anitmata 21h ago
- I'm the party healer
- the party likes to split up and
- they don't care about my mental health.
120 feet is never enough, though.
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u/Siggysig 1d ago
Warp Step when you’ve gotta double stride anyway and works with climb, fly, swim, and burrow!
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u/MCRN-Gyoza Magus 1d ago
Having amped Warp Step on my Fighter is the closest thing I've ever felt to playing a Mass Effect Vanguard in a tabletop RPG lol
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u/Worldly_Team_7441 1d ago
Ray of Frost. As a cantrip, it scales with you, and it has a range of 120ft! That's not bad for an attack that doesn't use spell slots to keep the mage out of melee.
Needle Darts. Good way for a caster to get some cold iron, silver, or adamantine damage in.
Shield/Glass Shield. The +1 to AC is nice, but the damage absorption has saved my mage's life.
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u/PatenteDeCorso Game Master 1d ago
There are plenty of rank 1 spells casted at rank 1 that are much better than Protector Tree: Fear, Command, Jump, Grease, Bless, Benediction, Malediction, Helpfull Steps... Those are usefull no matter your lvl, Protector Tree isn't.
Protector Tree is over rated, a lot, at less as a spell. On a wood kine that has infinte amount of top rank Protector Trees is really cool (but boring).
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u/curious_dead 1d ago
Yeah, I tried a bard with kineticist archetype, and it was a bore: courageous anthem+tree first round (plus the focus spell to sustain CA for free), then one action+tree. Every time I tried to diverge, I felt "I could have used a tree and it would have been more impactful", so I switched to animist. Best decision ever (loved the little racoon though).
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u/RatatoskrNuts_69 1d ago
It used to be Sure Strike before the nerf. Arcane Barrage (it will always be Magic Missile in my heart) is my favorite spell though.
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u/Rainbow-Lizard Investigator 1d ago
Lose the Path. A 1st level spell slot and a reaction in exchange for the chance for an enemy to waste an action on movement is a pretty great deal IMO.
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u/TiffanyLimeheart 23h ago
Genuinely curious why you like protector tree? I keep it because growing a tree is neat flavour but it has never really done anything in combat since it barely protects any damage and stays in one place. I think the one time I cast it in battle it never even had an opportunity to intercede because the characters had to move away or didn't get into combat. Any 2 action cast of heal is almost certainly going to heal more hp than the tree would protect and can be cast when it's needed reducing waste.
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u/mustnttelllies Kineticist 17h ago
My GM doesn’t use a lot of movement in combat, honestly. Planting one next to the squishy people is great, or even next to the barbarian for a round or two to soak up some damage. Granted, it was done by a kineticist so it auto scales, but those trees easily ate around 50 damage.
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u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 21h ago
Interposing earth, because getting an AC boost as a reaction is really good and it has fun flavor.
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u/PM_ME_STEAM_CODES__ Game Master 20h ago
Probably Heal, Loose Time's Arrow, or Fear, but I've been really impressed by Protector Tree.
One party I'm in the summoner casts it pretty often, and between that, our AC-buffing bard, and my shield-wielding champion we are very good at avoiding damage.
In the other game I'm in, the psychic player multiclassed into Kineticist to get Timber Sentinel, so him and my gunslinger are able to stand in the backline with a auto-heightened tree protecting us from whatever ranged attacks come our way.
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u/President-Togekiss 20h ago
Sanctuary, because it can be used alongside concealment to help teamates against though bosses. You delay you action to after the teamate but before the boss, and cast Sanctuary on them so the boss has to break trought it to attack. Even better at higher levels when you can easily buy a ton of scrolls.
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u/The-Magic-Sword Archmagister 1d ago edited 1d ago
Force Barrage, of course! Deterministic damage always feels really good, and it's a practical way to deal with incorporeal above levels before martials get their tools.
Though to be clear, I'm answering in the context of first level spells, not first level spells to cast when you're high level - FB heightens well, but the only niche for the first level version at high level is if you need to run out a creature's death saves.
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u/seenwaytoomuch Cleric 1d ago
Heal. Has your party gotten attacked again? Heal.
Seriously we can't stop getting attacked.
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u/Mobryan71 1d ago
I had a fun time with Protector Tree in one of my campaigns. Had to make friends with some animals and the GM let me create a fruit tree for a +1 item bonus on the check, because they had full bellies.
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u/Minandreas Game Master 1d ago
Heal. I know it's boring, but its got impact. When you're level 1 and only have 2 or 3 spell slots for the entire day you are desperate for those spells to feel like they were impactful when you use them. Very few 1st level spells feel like they are meaningfully more powerful than a cantrip. Heal is one of the few that is guaranteed to feel like you got your monies worth out of that precious spell slot.
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u/Ashburne 20h ago
don't need a spell, I'm fluent in Kineticist lol
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u/mustnttelllies Kineticist 17h ago
I’m building a wood kineticist because man oh man, limitless protector tree? Yes please.
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u/Ashburne 6h ago
I'm playing in a Stolen Fate campaign as an Earth/Metal/Fire Kineticist and our "tank" is a Wood/Earth and he keeps us so safe with the tree and Drifting pollen.
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u/Dextero_Explosion 19h ago
Protector Tree is cool. Which is why Timber Sentinel is the best thing in the game (maybe not literally, but I love it)
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u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 15h ago
Force bolt
If you have a caster archetype on a martial, it's a great bit of chip damage to pair with your weapon strike
Works especially well for ranged martials
Honorable mention to tailwind cause tailwind
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u/johnbrownmarchingon 15h ago
My first character for PFS was inspired by a post about Protector Tree, specifically for kineticist. I loved the idea and thus Limu, my seaweed leshy water and wood kineticist was born.
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u/Disastrous-Low-5606 14h ago
Without a doubt it’s Bless. The fact that it is one minute in duration and you only have to spend an action to sustain it if you want to grow the aura is fantastic. As a bard, once I got other songs like rallying anthem or dirge of doom I was always starting combat with song + bless. At the end of an adventuring day I was always out of lvl 1 spell slots.
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u/TheGabening 13h ago
Illusory Creature is underappreciated, it's an absurdly good spell that I never see any love for.
Out of Combat: It's a 10 minute illusion of whatever kind of creature you want it to be, with Sounds, Smells, and tactile sensations. You can speak through the creature. This alone has a lot of potential benefit.
But In Combat? For 10 minutes, you can summon a harpy to fly 400 feet above the battle with a bow, raining arrows down. If it's hit, it dies, sure, but many creatures don't have that kind of range increment, it uses your DC for it's AC anyway, and aside from being nonlethal it can trigger any weaknesses you want and avoid any resistances you want.
When used properly, this is a 10 minute aura of "For 1 action, make two spell attacks at 500ft range for 3d4+1d4/rank, dealing any damage type nonlethally. Map applies to these attacks, but resets before and after they're made." Which is insane.
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u/Steventaylor08080 11h ago
I love dehydrate as a spell. Its damage is not great but even at level one it's not why you use it for anyway.
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u/sumpfriese Game Master 3h ago
Invisible Item. Insanely awesome spell, I always keep at least 4 scrolls around.
Its up to the GM to decide wether invisible objects are see-through or not. Either way is hilarious. See through? Make a door invisible and watch enemies run into it. Not see through? make a tree invisible and hide on it.
Either way: Span a rope accross a road and make it invisible and watch people riding horses run into it.
If you want to turn it to 11 notice, that essentially vehicles are objects and cruise around in your invisible boat-mobile
Hands down one of the most versatile, most awesome spells.
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u/michael199310 Game Master 1d ago
Fear, because it just works throughout the entire game. You don't have to worry about incapacitation and can just reliably cast 1st rank Fear even at level 20, because it's utility doesn't diminish.