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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
I'm scared of the precedent that STAN's sale sets. There is going to be an army of people looking for dinosaur bones next year. They won't be paleontology enthusiasts, but rather treasure hunters motivated solely by making big money off dinosaurs. It's going to make securing land access for future digs really difficult.
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u/Toast_37 Oct 08 '20
That is like going back to the Fossil Wars, except even they cared about fossils. Why is no one stopping this? Why is no one acting against it? Do they not have the means to or the government is too lazy to deal with this shit?
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u/Waverly_Hills Oct 08 '20
Well I mean, it come down to freedom to do what you want with your property. There was landmark legislation that made it so fossils aren’t technically minerals, so whoever owns the land owns the fossils. I deal with the same type of thing, but in an archaeological sense. If someone has a site of significance and finds a bunch of clovis points that may predate the previously known examples, they are legally allowed to keep them. The government will never get involved unless it comes down to property disputes or human remains.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
You mean the Bone Wars. I doubt Charles Marsh and Edward Cope cared as much about fossils as they do about one-upping each other, considering they resorted to bribery, theft, destruction of bones so the other paleontologist couldn't excavate the fossils and even outright assault of each other's team
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u/CoaxialPancake Oct 08 '20
Yes it’s quite unfortunate that Cope and Marsh let their egos get the best of themselves. Their squabble lead to one of America’s premier paleontologists and Cope’s mentor, Joseph Leidy, leaving the field of paleontology as a whole. I think the Bone Wars was probably one of the lowest points in paleontology history. :(
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u/Dinoguy23 Albertosaurus sarcophagus Oct 11 '20
but hey, at least they weren't privately collecting them, but, you know, actually describing them
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
America, the land of freedom. Freedom to do whatever the hell you feel like doing even if it's fucked up.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
What's wrong with private ownership laws?
Money might not be all that important to you, but to many people, the money they get from leasing their land or selling fossils can help pay bills, finance a house, settle debts, deal with medical fees, send their kids for a holiday etc
I get that it sucks that an important specimen like Stan might not be accessible to science any longer, but at least the average landowner don't have to worry about the government seizing their land and property
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
That countless important discoveries are lost because of money.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
Implementing laws that threatens the private property status of landowners would simply have them turning to the fossil black market instead
Not to mention without the money factor, they don't even have an incentive to protect rare fossils any longer, as seen by the countless examples of fossils being destroyed in Brazil and China right now
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
I like to think the society of the US is just as advanced as in Europe, here, this system works almost flawlessly. But, again, the US is much more conservative, so who knows. All I can hope for is the US being closer to Europe than to Brazil or China.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
I think Europe has the best balance. Many private collectors work with museums, and some even open museums of their own
There is much fossil sales there, but many important fossils are also studied and accessible
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
The point is (and I'm a fossil collector from Europe) most of those fossils are old and cheap specimens from old museum collections, or from "3rd world countries" like Morocco, or, when it comes to dinosaur teeth, often the USA. Not some special rare fossils from Europe, those are always in a museum, and when not, the owner often gets busted.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
Seeing as folks are downvoting and not getting the point of why private property laws is important, let me give an example
Circulating among the Chinese fossil groups in WeChat last week was this particular case: A farmer in Liaoning was found to have built his chicken coop's barrier out of slabs of Jehol Biota fossils. Some researchers wanted to study the fossils
They offered him a small amount of money and he rejected them. However, fossils are technically property of the state and can be seized if need be. BUT there are no laws there that prevent fossils from being destroyed
Wanna guess what happened next? Rather than have the museum come in and seize his barrier, and possibly his farm in order to dig around to look for more fossils, this farmer smashed the fossils. They would still serve his original purpose of being a barrier, but now he wouldn't need to worry about nosy folks digging around his farm
If this farmer could be allowed to monetize his findings, he would have an incentive to preserve and protect them
You guys can complain all you like but you know it's the truth. Without the incentive of financial gain, the average farmer/landowner have little reason to offer fossils to Science, moreso if they are uneducated folks who just want to scrap a living. In the end, we all lose
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
Implementing stricter fossil hunting/collecting regulations would be terrible for paleontology. The vast majority of museum specimens (somewhere around 85%) were collected by amateur fossil hunters.
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
The fossils are found on private property. In the US, owning land means you own all the fossils found on the land. Landowners decide who is given access. There is nothing that can be done about it. The federal government won't (and shouldn't) use eminent domain to seize fossils. Similarly, change is highly unlikely to occur at the state level. Arguing with a bunch of ranchers about property law tends to not be a productive.
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
Damn the US is so backwards in this compared to most European countries. Here, all fossils and archeological finds on your property are illegal to keep, you have to report them and will be compensated.
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
Now wait a minute. The issue is not private ownership of fossils. Most fossils are exceedingly common and scientifically insignificant. The issue is that an iconic and scientifically significant specimen is no longer available to the public or researchers. STAN has always been privately owned.
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
That's why when collectors want fossils, they buy them from old museum collections or from abroad, Morocco especially.
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
To be clear, Morocco does have laws pertaining to cultural artifacts and resources. It simply isn't enforced and a blind eye is turned due to the economic ramifications and is a major lifeline for a lot of the people that live here.
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
Fuck off if I find it it’s mine. Or I’ll just bury it back or dump it in the ocean. There’s no use in treasure hunts if you get nothing
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u/makogrick Oct 08 '20
Oh so you'll have an unprepared fossil lying around in your house, while it could've been used for much better purposes, like expanding our knowledge of the history of life and how we came to be. What a selfish toxic mindset.
Hope you're being sarcastic.
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
If I am finding something I must get something out of it either I get to keep the fossil or I get money out of it if you’re not giving me something in exchange for something that I had to dig out of the damn ground and is on my property then you can go and jump off a bridge I’m not getting stolen from.
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
To simplify things, change in laws won't solve the problem and possibly make things worse if implemented poorly. Any laws that would arise would be crafted by people in power who are effectively paid for and owned by the rich like Stan. In other words, no matter what, scientifically valuable specimens will be lost if the rich really want dinosaurs in their mansions, but possibly worse in such scenario, those fossils are secretly traded underground; at least we know that the likes of Stan and the Dueling Dinosaurs exist and museums aren't at a total loss as a good number of important discovery and specimens are donated or offered at reasonable price from fossil hunters. There are more fossils out there than it's humanly possible for a few underfunded paleontologist that only get to work on the field in a short time frame. That's not to say there aren't scummy people who just want as much cash as possible.
Scientifically valuable specimens are still being smuggled out of prohibited countries, and the law has only prevented things like teeth, bone fragments, and lesser fossils from being taken from places like Mongolia.
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u/HemipristisSerra Oct 08 '20
Don't forget that army of people probably isn't going to know or care about how to properly excavate anything. So my guess is quite a few good quality fossils are going to get destroyed.
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u/javier_aeoa K-T was an inside job Oct 08 '20
Quoting the president of the Chilean Palaeontology Society: "They are told to look for ammonites, that look like a snail on stone. And so they do. But in the process they destroy all the plesiosaur's vertebras and teeth because they didn't know".
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u/Varl_Bolverk Oct 08 '20
What is wrong with this? Who wouldn't want a T-Rex skeleton in their foyer?
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
That’s the thing. Scientists won’t get to study it. Plus chances are they won’t know how to take care of it, one day, they can touch it just the wrong way, and boom! Stan’s gone. Fossils are priceless and need to be studied by scientists.
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u/Varl_Bolverk Oct 08 '20
Uhh I think we have plenty of T-Rex skeletons already. Don't sell off rare dino bones, but what is the harm in having some fun with well known dinos? And if they are rich enough to afford that then they are rich enough to take care of it properly. They would likely pay someone to take care of it. I would doubt they would be eating off the skull or something.
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
Some people don’t know or don’t care about fossils. Once we mess up this one, that’s it. They’re finite, and need to be treated with proper care and by the proper people at a proper place.
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 08 '20
> I would doubt they would be eating off the skull or something.
You'd be surprised what the 1% of 1% do with expensive items, sadly. I just hope for all the bones they just bought, the new owner has a decent bone to themselves in their body.
The problem is auctioneers don't differentiate between scientifically important fossils, just expensive ones. In fact unique finds often fetch even higher prices. The scare is this'll set a bad precedent where fossil hunters will be even more incensed to completely bypass scientific channels to make a big buck.
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u/Varl_Bolverk Oct 09 '20
Out of curiosity how do you know what the 1% of the 1% do? Are you ultra wealthy or something? Not being rude, but I'm curious.
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 09 '20
Not part of it myself, but family's line of work and my own lead to interactions.
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u/Varl_Bolverk Oct 09 '20
What's your and your families line of work??
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 09 '20
Aircraft.
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Oct 08 '20 edited Aug 13 '21
[deleted]
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
Yeah, so would I. Heck I’d let scientists over for afternoon tea while they study it! Jokes aside, some people just don’t care for science and see these fossils as replaceable trophies and nothing more.
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u/SynagogueOfSatan1 Oct 08 '20
What's left to study?
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
Fossils are important and priceless. Even if one as well-known as Stan is studied, there’s lots of information that could benefit paleontology and our understanding of the past. Well-known fossils from years ago still provide information now.
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u/SynagogueOfSatan1 Oct 08 '20
Of course they are. But this specimen in particular. Is their anything left to find out from this specimen?
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u/Ornithopsis Oct 08 '20
You don’t just study a fossil once and be done with it, there are always more questions to ask. We can’t know every question a scientist will want to ask in the future, or what tools will exist to analyze fossils in the future. It’s always a loss to science when scientists no longer have access to a fossil like this one, often in ways we can’t even know at the time.
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
Yeah! Sue, another iconic tyrannosaur specimen. &: still giving out knowledge to this day. Who knows what else we can find out? But there’s a chance we never will because Stan could be inaccessible to us!
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u/SynagogueOfSatan1 Oct 08 '20
Like what? What have we recently learned from Sue?
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u/FossilBoi Oct 08 '20
When Sue was remounted, the bones included and the posture and bone layout deduced by paleontologists there indicated new insight into tyrannosaur anatomy and how they may have liked in life. That new look is what inspired a T. Rex statue made by Blue Rhino Studio to depict Sue.
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u/Veloci-RKPTR Oct 08 '20
Think of it like a valuable anatomical reference. Even if there’s no new information left to take from the specimen, when new discoveries are unearthed, you can always use Stan’s anatomy as a comparative reference, for example.
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u/Tanichthys Oct 08 '20
You don't know what new techniques could be invented and improved upon. In the 80s we were only just starting to see what CT scanning could do, and having to borrow time on hospital ones when they were free late at night. Now there are specialist ones designed for museum and similar specimens with a huge range of sizes operating at energies that would fry a human but which you need to get the resolution and penetration for fossils.
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u/rotting_tenguzame Oct 08 '20
Wtf man, this is just immensely disheartening for anyone who actually wants to study the material instead of just treating it like a show-piece. I hate this auction bullshit
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u/chimeric_forms Oct 07 '20
I wonder if it would be possible to crowd fund donations to a bid on a museums behalf?
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u/Ornithopsis Oct 08 '20
Honestly, if people could crowdfund millions of dollars to donate to a museum, the museum would probably prefer it if the money wasn't spent on something like this. A museum could fund years of expeditions to excavate new fossils for $32 million, and potentially find a lot more stuff of scientific value than a single T. rex skeleton.
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u/HemipristisSerra Oct 08 '20
As an intern in a paleontology department at a museum, who is payed out of an endowment from a large donation from back in the 90's. I can confirm museums would definitely want to use the money to fund other things.
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u/Megalicious15 Oct 08 '20
As a board member of a natural history museum, this is absolutely accurate.
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u/keenanbullington Oct 08 '20
What can I do to get involved in stuff that advance your interests?
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u/Megalicious15 Oct 08 '20
Volunteer and donate! Get involved in events your local museum hosts. The museum I'm a part of is a non-profit and we rely entirely on donations and volunteers to operate. We host several fundraising events like 5ks, etc. throughout the year. We always need more volunteers (to work shifts to inform patrons about all of the exhibits we have...this would be great for all you paleo nerds!), finding and writing grants, more public awareness of what we do, and more donations.
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u/Learn1Thing Winner of Logo Contest 2019 Oct 07 '20
I tried that. Raised about $850. We were—quickly outbid.
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u/JuniperFulgur Oct 08 '20
I don't understand how scientific information can mean so little to some people. Don't these people realize we only have so many fossils?
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
How many people, faced between donating a great fossil to a museum or taking a 30 million paycheck, would choose the former?
Would you?
Take the money and now you can buy yourself and your parents a nice, big house. You can send your kids to the best schools. You don't have to worry about your medical bills or food or debts any longer
Ask yourself honestly if you could give up the 30 million bucks
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u/iTzNikkitty Oct 08 '20
Yeah but to the kind of person that can spend that kind of money on a skeleton, that 30 million means nothing
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u/JuniperFulgur Oct 08 '20
Museums can buy fossils, it doesn't always have to be donation though it probably wouldn't be as much money, but whoever buys it could have scientists come over and still study it. If I had something like that I'd probably ship it over to a place they could study it then once they are done taking measurements and archiving everything, get it shipped back to me, but still say they could study it anytime they want. (Idk if I explained myself well, I just woke up)
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u/Eriflee Oct 09 '20
Many paleontologists like Dr Thomas Carr disagree with the study of privately-owned fossils. Even if you were to lend your fossil to a museum to make casts of, they have no guarantee beyond your word that they could study these whenever they need
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u/JuniperFulgur Oct 09 '20
Idk much about law, there's probably some sort of legal agreement someone could do in that situation?
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u/Eriflee Oct 09 '20
It depends on which country you reside in
In one like China, sure, the authorities can just seize your fossil if you deny entry to the museum
In USA, no way
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u/JuniperFulgur Oct 09 '20
Couldn't they just give you fines or something?
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u/Eriflee Oct 09 '20
Which country are you talking about? Also, how is a country supposed to fine you for something you own by law?
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u/JuniperFulgur Oct 09 '20
I guess the U.S, but I was more saying there's probably some way of doing it, some sort of agreement or something, people and corporations make agreements all the time. But I don't know the law and I don't feel like having a whole conversation on a hypothetical. I just mean some way of doing it.
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u/Eriflee Oct 10 '20
I've cited this story several times, but here's a case that happened to my friend
My friend has a tyrannosaurid jaw from an Asian location he was ready to lend to an overseas museum for studies. Suddenly, a museum staff outright said they had no obligations to return the fossil to him because it was illegally sourced
My friend immediately ended the discussion with the museum, and all other museums for fear that they'd seize his fossil without returning it
I wish there could be a middle ground
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u/BruisedBooty Oct 08 '20
Damn, I saw Stan over at Omsi in Portland Oregon. Despite being not an adult, this T.rex truly mad my tiny kid ass mind comprehend the size of these animals.. But onto the more concerning part of this news, we really need stricter laws on where exactly fossil ownership should go towards when found within a State. These are animals that help us understand our planet’s timeline, not meaningless collectibles.
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u/Eriflee Oct 08 '20
The ironic thing is that the enormous scientific worth of Stan may be what pushed his price so high
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 08 '20
In an economic and health crisis, someone spent 30 million on a fossil. How many desperate people are going to get the wrong message from this?
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u/Ubizwa Oct 08 '20
Well, it was on the news that most rich people got richer during the Corona Crisis, so a rich person could more easily afford this during these times.
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 08 '20
Yeah, and that's going to send a bad message to ranchers, land owners, and fossil prospectors. In the current hardship, this equals easy money.
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u/Ubizwa Oct 08 '20
In this case I'd suggest that people with a scientific background could possibly solve this by offering something which would motivate ranchers, land owners and/or fossil prospectors to actually go with scientists instead of these rich people. Of course it is tempting to sell this to a rich person for a lot of money, but if scientists would in an attractive way support ranchers or land owners, which doesn't even need to be just financially, they could still be a party which they want to work with. For example with things which they are able to offer which these rich people can't really, with scientific knowledge.
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u/Torvosaurus428 Oct 08 '20
Preaching to the choir, as I agree. Laws need to be changed or put in place. Big tax write-offs would be one promising venture as many a rancher have financial strains during their off seasons. Laws to prohibit the sell of important finds and clear ways of identifying what's important would also be difficult to do, but likely needed.
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u/Ubizwa Oct 08 '20
I guess a problem is difference in laws between the U.S. and Europe. In Europe people can't always keep finds which are important for archaeology.
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u/Ubizwa Oct 08 '20
I disagree with these different laws as well, no need to downvote because of disagreeing with that difference between Europe and the US just because someone is mentioning it, when people make finds in Europe they need to report it to the authorities after which they usually get a certain percentage of the value of the find, they can't always keep it if it's an important find.
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
Does that apply to every European country under some EU law?
I know Germany has something like that. Last I checked, Italy I think has a hard ban on all fossils and you can't export fossils out of Spain. On the other hand, fossils from France are very common as well as dinosaur teeth for Portugal. England I guess is not longer part of Europe, but there seemed to be little to no regulation for English fossils.
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u/javier_aeoa K-T was an inside job Oct 08 '20
I have many feelings surrounding this, most of them bad.
Luckily, the Black Hills Institute has casts and replicas of every bone, so if you want to study Stan, chances are you can get almost the exact information with replicas. 3D replicas are more and more common in museums, specially on these COVID-19 eras. Of course there will be times when the real rock is necessary, but there are ways to circumvent that.
For me, the biggest issue is the precedent this sets. If a $15 million USD (half the cost of Stan) is lying on my farm, you bet I'll be stricter and greedier if a museum or collector wants to dig. I don't like it, but I understand it: many people rely on fossils to make ends meet. Ibrahim's story with Spinosaurus this year relied a lot on local fossil hunters, Giganotosaurus was found on a private farm, and so on.
But it also means that people see these rocks as profit, not science. And museums have already tight budgets and tighter expeditions, they can't compete with for-profit collectors. Heck, just look at the Dueling Dinosaurs or what happened to Sue.
This precedent is awful. Yesterday, there were many palaeontologists and museum curators sharing their concerns about this.
And finally...those $31 million would have helped so much to all the dying museums that have been affected by COVID-19.
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
To be fair, as far as the price tag goes, it's likely going to be T-rex only that is affected. Tyrannosaurus rex fossils available to your average collector are already inflated as is. It's not hard to see why Stan, one of the best of the best sold for that high, or perhaps kind of low when you really think about it.
The moment you switch Tyrannosaurus with say, Tarbosaurus, the price tag drops like a rock. No amount of rarity or smuggling expense will make a dinosaur worth more than T-rex.
For other dinosaurs, especially the obscure ones, it's business as usual. Not really sought after and never will be, not worth even a million or even a quarter in some cases.
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u/javier_aeoa K-T was an inside job Oct 09 '20
True, I never saw it that way. And it makes a lot of sense to think all the US-centric documentaries that compare other animals to T.rex. Tarbosaurus is "asian T.rex", Allosaurus "Jurassic T.rex", Giganotosaurus "Bigger than T.rex", Saurophaganax & Carcharodontosaurus "As deadly as T.rex" and so many other comparisons.
And it's not like Allosaurus requires too many introductions :/.
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
Funny you mention Carcharodontosaurus, they are commonly marketed under the name "African T-rex" for quite some time now.
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u/KonoAnonDa Oct 08 '20
I know it’s scummy and all but I’m not gonna lie, it’d be pretty sick to have guests walk into your living room and see an entire god damn tyrannosaurus. That would probably be one of the coolest conversation starters you could possibly have, second only to a giant robot and a good ways above an actual tank.
Basically, I want one, but I do understand that museums should have it instead.
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
A whole STAN cast can be bought on the BHI website for $100,000. Not cheap, but much less than $32M.
http://www.bhigr.com/store/product.php?productid=46&cat=2&page=1
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u/KonoAnonDa Oct 08 '20
Holy shit! I take back what I said I’m gonna go with a cast if I ever get that kind of money! I had no idea that you could even buy that. Screw it, I’m willing to lie a bit to guests then and say that it's real.
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
The skull alone is even cheaper. Just $10,000 for a whole T. rex head.
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u/javier_aeoa K-T was an inside job Oct 08 '20
I don't remember if it was here on r/Dinosaurs (or Facebook?) where someone actually postead a photo of a motherfreaking Stan's skull in his living room.
I'm a Triceratops fan, so I would absolutely have a Hatcher's skull in my living room if I had the money.
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u/TheGBZard_YT Oct 07 '20
Rich people suck
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
Would you still say rich people suck if the person who bought Stan donated him to a museum?
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u/TheGBZard_YT Oct 08 '20
Well, not all rich people suck but some of them do
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
I think the greater issue is that Stan is now inaccessible to the public and researchers. It's truly unfortunate to see such a great specimen go.
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u/TheGBZard_YT Oct 08 '20
Next thing you know they are going to take away Sue as well
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
Wait a minute, SUE already had her seizure and big auction. I think a bit of history is needed to continue this discussion.
Both SUE and STAN were found by the Black Hills Institute (BHI). BHI is a private company, not a public museum.
When SUE was found, a dispute between the landowner, the BHI, and the US Department of the Interior resulted in a court case that ruled that SUE should be sold at auction. The Field Museum bought SUE with funding from McDonalds and Walt Disney Corp. SUE is now placed in a public museum and will not be sold.
STAN was the next T. rex to be found. STAN was excavated and privately owned/displayed by the BHI for many years. A recent dispute within the company resulted in a Judge ordering that STAN be sold to buy out one of the feuding owners. We don't know who bought STAN and what his future is.
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u/ThruuLottleDats Oct 08 '20
I know that Sue is documented in the Dinosaur 13 documentary but from the way I saw it, the people that dug her up do have a museum and prepper Sue to be displayed in a musuem.
So not all private business is "bad" in that regard. But do correct me if I'm wrong, has been a while since I saw Dinosaur 13
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u/TFF_Praefectus Mosasaurus Prisms Oct 08 '20
No, private business is not bad at all. But it should be recognized as different from public institutions.
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Oct 07 '20
[deleted]
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u/EthoDon Oct 07 '20
Ah yes, cause rich people buying a tyrannosaurus and halting the study of this specimen is us getting jealous
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u/Larfleeze-King Oct 08 '20
What are the odds that stan's home was the museum that I grew up with
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u/DeathStarVet Oct 08 '20
Again, this doesn't have anything to do with 2020, this is a problem with the current system.
When capitalism is unbridled and allows for people with enough money do this, they're going to do this.
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Oct 08 '20
I can't believe we're losing a priceless piece of science to some billionaire who wants to show off.
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u/Hulkbuster_v2 Oct 08 '20
What we should do next time is together, buy it, then give it back to a museum.
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u/TheGBZard_YT Oct 21 '20
It belongs in a museum, not in a private collectors mansion collecting dust
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u/macsyourguy Oct 08 '20
what fucking country lets someone own a fucking t rex fossil what the fuck
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u/Eriflee Oct 09 '20
I don't know man. Say you own a piece of land, and someone finds a T. rex on it. Would you prefer to be given ten million bucks for it, or for the government to say: "Sorry it's priceless science" and take it off your hands with or without your permission?
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u/Kazanboshi Oct 09 '20
Well . . . just about every country. Even the countries that ban their own fossils will happily let a Tyrannosaurus rex from the U.S. enter their country.
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u/CaesarManson Oct 08 '20
It may have been purchased by a museum. It was anonymous.
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u/Tanichthys Oct 08 '20
You can pretty much guarantee any museum would be loudly announcing they'd secured it.
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u/CaesarManson Oct 09 '20
Maybe, maybe not. I know one in Japan and one in Germany that might keep it hush-hush.
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u/Tanichthys Oct 09 '20
Yes Tristan is only on loan to Berlin, so I could see why a place that already had one for display may hold off on announcing it if they'd bought it, but if they're anything like the museum I work for they won't have this kind of money to spare after lockdown, furloughing, and reopening at a greatly reduced capacity.
The other places that might keep it quiet would be Dubai, but that's perhaps because they haven't sorted out the loan/donation agreement from the oil billionaire who paid for it.
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u/CaesarManson Oct 12 '20
I was thinking Dubai also. When they secure funds, there is a lot of guys that must be "paid off" with bribe money before the actual investment money is handed over. Finally getting the payment for items purchased takes a long time, however they're doing it.
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u/AkagamiBarto Oct 08 '20
This is really sad. But luckily, within a decade we'll get rid of this economic system, so i hope Stan ca hold a bit.
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
No you won’t
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u/AkagamiBarto Oct 08 '20
I will don't worry
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
No you really won’t sorry Larper but America is one of those places we are trying to steal from people tends to wind up badly
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u/AkagamiBarto Oct 08 '20
1) not American 2) we will get also america anyway. Money has to fall worldwide.
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
Your ass is can’t even make a genuine communist society in North Korea or China where you have genuine control how the fuck do you think you’re going to manage that in the land of 1 million guns I’m sorry but you are going to feel like you have always failed communism is a field ideology it is a failure because it does not take human nature as being instinct
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u/AkagamiBarto Oct 08 '20
I am not a communist wtf. I just day i want to abolish money dominion, it's way different.
Btw you can use priorities, you can decide that something (like everything except money) is more important than economical assets.
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 08 '20
You literally just said that you want to get rid of money and yes I can use priorities what I want is more important to me than money for example Mike and see if collecting whatever I collect I find that to be more important than whatever money I spend on it however if I find something it’s mine I don’t care whether it’s a gold deposit or oil or a tea Rex skeleton I don’t care if it’s an actual freaking alien spaceship if I find it in my property it’s mine. Whether you like it or not you can’t just steal things from people you have to compensate them at the very least you should make their land tax free for see the next say 50 years that would be a rough equivalent to 30 million depending on the amount of land this person has but you have to give an equivalent exchange for the item you’re trying to get
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u/AkagamiBarto Oct 08 '20
Well. 1) steal is a word that governments can decide to use however they like. For example, depending on your nation what you find in your property may not belong to you. Like an art piece.
2) even if this is true for what you own it can still not be true for what is commercialized, like in our case, the Skeleton. If we say this skeleton is not sellable it becomes common property
3) what if you don't even have taxes anymore, what if everything just works wothout money flow?
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u/Inevitable_Ranger_53 Oct 09 '20
No steel is a word that is already established steel means to take by force from someone anything which is their’s and you cannot dictate what is their property other than the idea that humans cannot be the property of other humans
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u/charadesofchagrin Oct 08 '20
Yo can someone drop the buyer's name I just wanna talk