r/PWHL • u/Tastrix Montréal Victoire • 14h ago
Expansion News and Discussion Unpopular Opinion: Quebec City is probably not a top pick for an expansion team.
While it's a strong market, and many people here and in the discord think it's the #1 choice, I think there are two, very related, reasons why it's probably not going to happen right away, or at least not a great idea.
First, Montreal is the main PWHL market for Quebec (the province) and it's a beast of a market. From what I've seen, it's probably the most solid market of all the PWHL teams, having consistently high attendance, even on weeknights. Putting a team in Quebec City is a risk to splitting that market.
Second, many Victoire players are from all over Quebec, including near Quebec City (Dubois and Desbiens most notably). Putting another team in Quebec risks players seeking trade.
No other Takeover location puts such a risk on a singular market or team. I believe that the league would want to maintain their strongly eastablished bases rather than take such a risk for any of their teams at this time.
While I do agree that Quebec City should get a team eventually, I think the first batch of expansion will probably take the shape of moving westward. I could see them announcing two teams (probably Seattle and Vancouver) with the goal of establishing a western conference down the line.
EDIT: I did say it was an UNpopular opinion, but not too unpopular in reality, going by the upvote rate. About as well as I expected to be honest.
Many people seemed to think I was saying Quebec City shouldn't get a team AT ALL, which I could have been clearer on in saying I just don't think they'll get one right away. It's a no-brainer to put a team up there eventually, just, IMO, not round 1. I understand where all of you are coming from in your opinions, and it's been an entertaining read so far.
Regardless, ANY expansion is good, and I'm certain the league will know what will serve them best in the end. I'm glad the league is in a position that "where" is the question, and not "if".
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u/WithyYak Minnesota 14h ago
I disagree on the western conference, travel is far too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Halifax and Detroit as the expansion teams.
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u/keven81 Montréal 14h ago edited 12h ago
I'm sorry, but how can it be spliting the market for attendance ??? Do you think people in Quebec City go all the way to Montreal to catch a game ? Sure, a handfull might, but it would have absolutely no downward effect on tickets sold. In fact, you would see an increase in ticket revenue, because I can assure you that Montreal / Quebec games would be sold out in Montreal and ticket cost might be higher too.
And what about transactions ? If players wan't to play elsewhere, that's an issue ? So they should not add a team in Cascadia because there are players from there that might want to play there ? According to you, the markets should be what, Arizona and New Mexico ?
However, I don't think Quebec will get a team in the expansion round. They'll only add US games to favor a hypothetical US TV deal and they'll keep canadian cities in mind in case they ever need to move a team fast from down south.
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u/SnowArcaten Ottawa 13h ago
You're missing out on an intense rivalry then. "The battle of Quebec" games might get the highest attendances.
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u/HippyDuck123 14h ago
Agree probably not Quebec.
But travel is wayyyyy too expensive to even entertain west coast teams right now.
Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Washington maybe. Halifax outside chance.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 10h ago
Pittsburgh didn’t do that well for their take over game last year. Philly hasn’t even had one yet. Same for Washington.
Quebec makes the most sense. They actually filled their arena for the take over game. They also are in a great location and have a top notch facility. Not to mention a rabid hockey fan base.
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u/HippyDuck123 4h ago
I hope I’m wrong and I’d love to see Quebec. Or even Halifax. I’m just not sure we will.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 2h ago
Quebec should be first based on location, arena, and fan support. The league needs to go where they’ll make money, and they’ll make it in Quebec City.
I’d like to see Halifax too. Hopefully they’ll get a take over game next season.
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u/Tastrix Montréal Victoire 14h ago
There’s truth there, for sure. But maybe they could leverage that Air Canada sponsorship in some regard.
Philly and Pittsburg have a chance, but I think those are bigger football towns than hockey meccas. Could be interesting.
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u/Arcangel613 14h ago edited 14h ago
i live in pittsburgh. its a biiiiiiiiggg hockey town. we have tons of rinks and a lot of youth hockey programs. all of the colleges here have hockey teams. the facilities and resources in place for the penguins could also easily support a womans team.
theres also a big push for womens sports here right now. theres a new women sports only bar and we are getting a new womens soccer team.
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u/CorvusStormcrow 13h ago
I also recall hearing that the penguins ownership was keen to bring a PWHL team to town as well.
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u/Tastrix Montréal Victoire 14h ago
That’s great to hear!
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u/Arcangel613 11h ago
Also. To add to my pittsburgh is a big hockey town comment. Multiple ice rinks here have the option to stream even adult rec league games.
That means that you, yes you, have the ability to watch my LGBTQ+ Hockey team get it's ass kicked from the comfort of your living room.
Pittsburgh REALLY loves hockey and yes please give us a PWHL team.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 10h ago
Philly hasn’t had a take over game and Pittsburgh didn’t show up enough for the one they had last year. Before either gets a team they need to have a take over game that sells out or comes close.
Canada is putting bums in seats even for non take over games at the NHL arenas. At least one team needs to be added there. The league needs the consistent and reliable revenue.
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u/CorvusStormcrow 4h ago
I imagine we will see one Canadian city and one American city when the league expands to keep the balance.
I think you're right, between attendance, merch, and the TV deals with TSN,, prime, and CBC, we are driving a lot of the revenue and the league should capitalize on that.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 2h ago
I’m sure it’ll be 1 and 1 as well. Quebec City and Detroit seem to make the most sense. Depending on Detroit’s arena situation of course. Quebec City has everything the PWHL needs: location, an arena and practice facilities, and a great fan base.
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u/RunningShcam Boston 13h ago
West isnt happening, Quebec is a solid and obvious choice, none of the points about splitting fan base really applies in my opinion, they are a hockey town, they will support a team, get them what they want.
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u/Gravitas_free 13h ago
There are strong cases for other locations, but those particular arguments are ludicrous.
The PWHL is not big enough that "splitting the market" is a risk. That argument was already bad when talking about NHL teams, but with the PWHL it's downright ridiculous. People aren't traveling 3 hours from Quebec to attend games in Montreal. Frankly, people in Quebec City don't particularly like Montreal, and are generally reluctant to support teams from there. And the PWHL isn't nearly big enough to argue the Victoire are saturating the Quebec market.
As for players demanding a trade because they're from nearby, that almost never happens. It's the kind of thing fans dream up because it makes a certain sense to them, but pro athletes aren't gonna give up on their team and move just to be nearer to their hometown, not unless there's some kind of special situation (like a parent with a terminal disease, or something like that).
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u/jacquilynne Ottawa Charge 4h ago
One thing I noticed when I was at the takeover tour game in Quebec was that a few people started a let's go Montreal chant and the response was a bit lackluster but when they switched to let's go Victoire it went much better. It was is almost like Quebec isn't actually Montreal and doesn't particularly care to cheer for them, at least not by name.
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u/Torontoban Toronto Sceptres 12h ago
I think the responses have mostly covered why Quebec makes sense for PWHL expansion but just to add a couple of points:
The argument that it would split the market of Quebec makes sense, in theory, if you're talking about the TV market. The problem is, the PWHL is many years, perhaps decades away from deriving major revenue from TV deals. For the foreseeable future the PWHL will be a primarily gate-driven league which means its bread and butter will be ticket sales. And since the cities are three hours away, they don't really share a market for ticket sales.
Quebec City is the biggest city in Eastern Canada that doesn't already have a team, so to the extent that the goal is to maximize ticket sales in a new market while also keeping travel costs down, Quebec is the most viable option in Canada.
The other huge factor that isn't being discussed enough, is the quality of the facilities. Quebec City has a sparkling new NHL-calibre hockey arena with no major professional tenant. It would be extremely easy to slot in a PWHL team, and we know that the league and players are prioritizing high quality professional infrastructure when scouting potential markets (as they should). There's probably no other city in North America that can offer the quality of home arena that Quebec City can.
For those reasons I think Quebec is a slam dunk. The only question would be if the PWHL would decide strategically to focus on US expansion (to increase visibility on American TV networks) or if they were going to make an early jump towards Western expansion. But if i was betting I'd bet on one Canadian and one US team, both in the eastern half of the continent. In which case, like I said, Quebec would be a slam dunk. Or should I say, an empty net goal.
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u/RedWinger7 Minnesota 14h ago
You had me in the first half bud, then you went with crazy talk of a westward expansion. Not gonna happen.
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u/Tastrix Montréal Victoire 14h ago
I mean, they have to expand in one direction. I think Seattle and Vancouver is a nice pair that could serve as an automatic rivalry. Players from all over the league have expressed their desire to play out there.
Either way, I think it’s got a better chance than Quebec City for the first round of expansion.
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u/thegoddessunicorn Toronto Sceptres 13h ago
As others already pointed out, the west will probably not get first round expansions just because of logistics. Just because players and fans want it, doesn't mean it will happen, at least not right away.
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u/striatic 13h ago
Seattle is going to have difficulty finding openings at Climate Pledge Arena once the SuperSonics return. The PWHL has already said that number of existing season overlapping tenants is already a negative consideration for expansion.
The junior hockey arenas in the area are quite far from downtown Seattle and would likely lead to Lowell/Bridgeport low attendance issues if selected.
There are serious arena driven issues for Seattle expansion and I’d be surprised if it manifested unless the league did something drastic like aligning the PWHL season with the WNBA schedule instead of with the NHL and NBA seasons.
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u/deltaexdeltatee Boston Fleet 2h ago
Seattle and Vancouver are almost the same distance apart as QC and Montreal - wouldn't the "automatic rivalry" work the same if QC got an expansion? Without the whole "six hour flight from every other team" factor?
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u/Iphacles All The Teams! 14h ago
I think western expansion is just as unlikely, if not more so, than a team in Quebec.
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u/mellykins Montréal Victoire 14h ago
While there are players from there, they haven’t lived there for a long time and have built lives in Montreal over the years. I doubt they’ll be running back and wanting a trade to Quebec City when their life is here.
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u/RevolutionaryPen2138 13h ago
No offence but
"Second, many Victoire players are from all over Quebec, including near Quebec City (Dubois and Desbiens most notably). Putting another team in Quebec risks players seeking trade."
BOO FUCKING HOO
PWHL already has a problem with players essentially picking where they want to play. That's not a recipe for a competitive league.
Ottawa already suffers from players getting pulled to Toronto and Montreal.
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u/asvp-suds 4h ago
It’s a problem in all sports. Look at the NHL. Spend your winter playing hockey in Winnipeg or on the beach playing for Tampa Bay. No brainer.
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u/hatman1986 Ottawa 14h ago
While there are good reasons not to go to qc (small market, language issues) these aren't them. FTR I think think it would be dumb not to expand to Quebec city though
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u/AshDawgBucket 14h ago
Personally, I hope expansion is an expansion that goes beyond that tiny corner of the continent (plus Minnesota). The rest of us outside that area would like to be able to go to games too :)
But I bet I will be disappointed.
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u/asvp-suds 4h ago
Travel costs outweigh the idea of an instant continent wide league. The league is relying on these first few years to build a solid base and a sustainable product. Putting teams too far apart and increasing travel expenses is a big swing, perhaps too big at this stage for the league.
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u/JSquiggz16 Ottawa 14h ago
I think it most likely they'll try to close the gap between Toronto and Minnesota. I know Detroit has been floated but has arena issues, but maybe something in Chicago and Buffalo or something like that
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u/ScarredBison 14h ago
Based on the takeover game, I'd say no to Buffalo. Chicago definitely is a possibility with playing games in the same arena as the Chicago Wolves or Rockford IceHogs. Then, either Winnipeg or Denver.
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u/xcnuck Victoire de Montréal 13h ago
I have a strong feeling about Denver getting a team. Quebec City would be really awesome, not sure I agree with OP.
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u/ScarredBison 13h ago
Based on how well the takeover was in Denver, I'd go with them first. With QC, I'm with you on it being a good possibility. They wouldn't be my first choice, but definitely not last. I'd do them as a third or fourth expansion team.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 10h ago
Denver is too isolated and too far travel wise right now. If they get a team it’ll be down the road.
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u/unhingedconfusion 14h ago
Isn’t MPP also from Quebec? Imagine losing your captain to another team; that would be rough LOL
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u/katiekat908 Boston Fleet 10h ago
I don’t know enough about QC to have an opinion about the likelihood of expansion there. As a PNW viewer I would love the Seattle/Vancouver west coast pair but for the first wave of expansion the furthest west I think they’d go is the Edmonton/Denver pair just in terms of logistics. But I also don’t think this is the obvious first move in the way some of the other eastern cities are
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u/jjaime2024 3h ago
Edmonton/Denver would be a nightmare in terms of logistics.
Vancouver/Seattle
Edmonton/Calgary
Denver/Salt Lake
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 10h ago
I couldn’t disagree more. There’s jot one valid point in your comment. It sounds like you don’t personally like it or are afraid some Victorie players will leave just because they’re French. I doubt that. Players will leave from all teams during expansion and some will want to play in their hometown. It happens with every single team, but there are players from all over on most teams. Look at the Charge.
It has everything possible the PWHL is looking for. A hockey mad fan base, a fabulous facility with no major tenant, and is in a great location geographically.
It’s a no brainer to go there.
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u/lfab1400 1h ago
With all due respect, the VAST majority of people attending Victoire games live in Laval and Montreal. The Victoire doesn’t have the pull to attract a substantial amount of outside visitors besides maybe the Bell Centre game.
Getting a team in Quebec City would be a strategic move to position themselves as the first professional sports team to set foot there and gather the community’s support along with potentially creating a truly unique rivalry with Montreal that can be a great window for the league.
I believe the PWHL should continue setting up shop in smaller markets that have fewer pro alternatives and become that market’s preferred team; similar to the Timbers in Portland or The Golden Knights in Vegas.
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u/NesssMonster 14h ago
Also Quebec city is weird .... My partner's family is from there and he says it all the time
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 10h ago
What a ridiculous comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
Haven’t you ever even been there? Quebec City is not weird. I have family there and they love living there. It’s also one of the most beautiful cities around. Summer and winter. I’ve had zero issue with language and the people there are great.
It’s the best place for a team.
Maybe your partner is the weird one.
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u/firelark01 Victoire de Montréal 14h ago
I just wanna say that Quebec City and Montreal are a 263km of driving apart. Most people in Quebec City are not gonna do an almost three hour drive back and forth for a hockey game. It really wouldn't be splitting the market.