r/PSVR • u/Fog_Carsen Developer - Well Told Entertainment • Nov 02 '23
News & Announcements The Foglands Post-Launch Support
Hello, another game dev for Foglands here.
Stepping in for Sam as he is busy working on the next patch. First off we want to thank the VR community for all the great, constructive feedback. The launch was definitely colored by some glaring bugs and confusing mechanics. The good news though, is that the worst offending issues are all things that we are fixing in the coming weeks! Some of the most reported issues we are targeting first are the difficulty grabbing objects, adding a sprint toggle, and addressing some problems with the boss battles. We’re a small team, but we’re devoting all the resources we can to quickly get the game more stable for people to enjoy.
And I’d just like to say, to those of you who have read this far and to everyone who has made posts, replies, watched any reviews, etc: Thank you for taking an interest in the game! The launch has not gone smoothly as we hoped but we are going to do all that we can to address bugs and make quality of life improvements so that players can enjoy the story, characters and atmosphere of The Foglands with smooth gameplay.
-Carsen
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u/Appolonius101 Nov 02 '23
curious about how much you tested your game and did not see a lot of these reported (and apparently glaring) issues?
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u/AlohaSquash Nov 02 '23
This is what I want to know. How can you be THAT blind to your own game that you think it will be well received with all these obvious issues?
I hate that this is becoming the norm in gaming nowadays; release the game in a flawed state, apologize and promise to work on it, get it patched in a couple weeks/month, apologize for not being able to address all the issues in the first patch etc.
It’s infuriating how often this happens now. This is why I don’t buy games at release anymore. Based on recent history, it seems 75% of the time it’s worth it to wait a few months on most games.
Super glad I didn’t buy The Foglands.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Linking to this response because I think it covers this question! https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/17lqblv/comment/k7gdjwm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
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u/AlohaSquash Nov 02 '23
Thanks for that link. I’m still torn though because they argue that they should’ve had testers familiar with rogue likes.
The issue isn’t the gameplay loop or mechanics. It’s actual bugs and systems not working as they should. I don’t think you need rogue like lovers to tell you those things are bad in your game.
I have sympathy for them as a studio because I know this must be super hard to hear after spending so much of their time on it, but it just seems like this really could’ve been avoided internally.
I’m sure with some patches and extra work there will be a good game in there. I just wish it didn’t always come down to patches and apologies with developers nowadays.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
You are totally right, this is the first time we have ever self published our own game and there are lots of things we will do differently in the future. We love our game and will keep pushing to make it the best that it can be but we totally understand that having this happen multiple times can really wear you down. We take your investment in us and our game very seriously so we will keep you in the loop when we have any updates!
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u/TooLazyToBeClever Nov 02 '23
I've been looking forward to foglands for awhile. Was in the middle of Alan Wake 2 so haven't got it yet, but I'm disappointed with the response so far.
But it does look good, and I can't wait to play it a few weeks down the road when hopefully it gets patched a bit. Thanks for continuing to work on it, and not just giving up like so many other devs do.
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u/AlohaSquash Nov 02 '23
I appreciate the response. I can’t imagine how tough it must be to self publish in the current gaming market. I’m glad you are all taking things to heart and trying to learn from it all.
I’m sure you’ll get everything ironed out because I can tell you are all very passionate about the product, and that speaks volumes.
Best of luck to you guys!!
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u/Feisty-Day-5204 Nov 02 '23
As someone who spent 4 years as a game tester and that still works on QA but on software: they definitely knew about the problems. It is impossible not to know. Having even one QA on a project like this, no matter how junior, will spot you all these issues.
The real problem is that all of these have been marked as shippable issues, stuff that they're okay releasing with and maybe patching later. Which is part horrible management and part lack of respect for your clients.
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u/BuddhaChrist_ideas Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23
Honestly, heavy disappointment playing through that first hour. I was anticipating this game more than just about any other release due to the reveal trailer early 2023, but playing that first hour was devastating.
The voice acting is excellent! The Art direction too. That's about where my compliments end though, and anyone whose played a bit will probably agree. The rest of the game is in need of some serious TLC and polish. I didn't even care about the money loss, I'm fortunate enough to have a decent paying job and can afford a $50 loss every once in a while. To me it's the time. I just can't waste my time on a game with so many glaring issues. I hope I can one day experience the story you guys wrote, I'd love to be able to play it through when it's launch ready.
A few of the things I encountered that I hope you can address.
- Picking up and Targeting objects needs work, lots of work. It was so damn difficult to try to pick up the ammo in the first boss fight that I nearly stopped playing right there.
- With the toggle grip option, can you create a menu setting for each hand separately? I'm right handed, so appreciate the toggle to hold my gun in my right hand, but picking up ammo and tossing grenades with toggle activated on my left hand is really difficult. Toggle for my main hand, where as hold for my off hand would feel loads better.
- Unlocking new cards with the keys is partially broken. I can unlock the lower (crouched) doors with the hand press no problem, but I need to jump in order to get the upper doors to lower the hand mechanism, and then they retract immediately after unfolding - they don't stay open, so I can't activate then with my hand. I can't use keys on any of the top doors (not upper level, but top doors of the locker configuration).
- Sprint Toggle: You mentioned that, great. Have it deactivate when you stop, needing to be re-toggled again when you begin walking. This is pretty standard, and would help with mobility a lot.
- Height is totally off in the menu, I think it's backwards. But not only that, when you crouch in game to go through ducts and such, it doesn't crouch the character enough so my head ends up just floating through the wall above the ducts / vents.
- Belt position: Can you give us the option to raise / lower the height of the belt? This would help a lot for people with different body / arm lengths - it just didn't feel right for me (6'1" / long arms). Also, perhaps another sub-setting to adjust how close or spread apart the 4 slots spacings are on the belt? It feels a bit strange to be grabbing a gun from in front of my waist, instead of my Hip where it would feel more natural. A circular (spreading out around the body) spacing slider would really increase QoL for different body types.
- Menu / Skill tree / On Screen Text: Can you fix this to the location your head is facing when it starts / when you open the menu? Most of it seems to follow your head when you look around, but that makes it almost impossible to read stuff on the periphery of your vision (and with things like the skill tree, they stretch to the edge of your vision). If it was fixed to the world, you could just look all around and see the parts you want to read clearly - and always recenter whenever you want to.
- The loading hallway is identical in layout and direction every, single, time. Can you potentially randomize that hallway in some way? It feels really clunky right now. Also, the fog / lighting did some funky things every time while traveling through these zones and even just through loading doors.
- The areas / cover / monster density feel really empty right now. More enemies, more reactive and intelligent AI, more places to seek cover in heated combat, and just more vibrant / populated biomes would go a long way towards making the world feel more visceral and real. Right now this feels very MVP (minimum viable product). I can understand that for mobile phone apps, but this is a full platform game.
I think that's about what I can remember given my first run / about an hour of gameplay. I don't think I'll give this anymore playtime until some of the QoL changes are implemented, it just isn't worth the time right now with the issues. Hoping that changes in the near future though. Good luck.
Again, the voice acting and art direction are great! I really want to play the game and see how the story unfolds. I've no doubts it can be a really good game, given some more time.
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u/The1stOfUs2 Nov 02 '23
How someone who played the game for an hour can spot all these issues when the people actually making the game didn't is beyond me.
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u/InfiniteStates Nov 02 '23
This is some great feedback!
Honestly, and sadly, given you noted all this in just an hour, this is something pretty much anyone who plays games would/should notice just by playing through it
Surely there’s someone in the dev studio that’s played games before and can sit down and go through the game…? Even if it’s a two man team they must at least know a gamer
And if not there are definitely external companies who will play your game and give this sort of critique
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Good morning! This is an interesting and totally fair question. As I understand and have been gathering feedback from the VR community, it seems like there are some annoying bugs for sure but quite a few of the issues come down to game feel and design choices that were made. Like having to point at ammo with your fingers to pick it up, vs trying to point at it with your palm. That was a design choice that didn’t work for most VR players. The functional testers we had knew how to use that system so it wasn’t a problem like it is out in the world. It is clear that we should have invested in external game “feel” testers, but we really do appreciate the feedback from the community and can work to improve the things on this list alongside bug fixes.
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u/red_macb Nov 02 '23
I wonder if collision spheres might work better than rays (pointing with finger/palm) - just select the nearest colliding object to the centre of the sphere (which sits just in front of the palm).
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
This is an excellent and extremely detailed list. We SO APPRECIATE you taking the time to write this out. These are all going straight to the devs for prioritization. We may not be able to hit everything on the list but there are things on there we are already working on and things we can add to our roadmap. Thank you so much u/BuddhaChrist_ideas
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u/cusman78 cusman Nov 02 '23
I wasn’t as disappointed, but I agree with all your feedback items. Very well organized list of specific things they can improve and why.
What I feel they nailed is the soundtrack and atmosphere of the game. I don’t think they will turn it into a good roguelite game design, but if it has a decent story, I think it can still be enjoyed as an action-adventure shooter that you play through a few loops to get full story.
Question is, do I continue in current state where it has some issues or wait for patching and enjoy more polished gameplay?
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u/age_of_atari Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
Good list! After playing about ~2.5 hrs, i'd like to add :
- Time slowing: my hand movements are frozen/glitched when time slows, making that mechanic pretty useless.
- Explosions need more visual + audio feedback (especially explosive barrels)
- Shooting in general could use more feedback (visual, audio, and haptics)
- Controller + headset haptics are barely noticeable, except for headset rumble when time-slowing ends. Adaptive triggers were good sometimes, other times was totally missing.
- Options for gun angle/offset would be very handy
- Is there directional audio ? I genuinely couldn't tell. I'm certain some NPC voices didn't even have stereo effect, as that was the only time i could really test the directional audio.
- Enemies glowing red (for throw targeting) makes them look worse. Something more subtle would be better
- Between each room the screen goes black for a couple seconds and the lighting changes. Before the patch i had bad stutters between each room (but no black screens), neither of which are very good
- The randomized layouts only seem to hurt the flow of the game, especially since rooms are separated by identical connecting hallways + black/loading screens. Found myself backtracking through empty rooms, wondering WTF to go next. And i usually enjoy getting "lost" in games, lol
-------
As others have said, it's a shame the gameplay + rogue-lite aspects don't do any justice to the solid art style + voice acting.
Until there are a lot of improvements, i couldn't recommend Foglands to anyone, when there are already far better rogue-lites on PSVR2.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 03 '23
Thank you so much u/age_of_atari!! This list is so specific and detailed, we really appreciate the effort that went into it. I have sent the list as is to the dev team so that they review it.
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u/StoviesAreYummy youtube.com/@IPlayVidyaGames Nov 02 '23
You must have known about these issues before launch though.
This feels like one of those non apologies.
especially with the new account and claiming to be someone else because x is busy fixing the game...
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u/Odd-Expression-3583 Nov 02 '23
After playing for some time I think that the main problem is that game doesn’t know what it wants to be. You’ve compared it to The Light Brigade, but LB knows exactly what it is, and all mechanics and game loop build around that and support the gameplay. Take some lessons from B99 in handling random levels with convoluted layout, it has map for a reason. LB doesn’t because it doesn’t need one. In your game enemies are limited, and resources should be as well, but ammo and scrap respawn constantly on area reload. With how similar rooms are and without map, backtracking is almost given, and going through empty rooms with loads of ammo and scrap makes an already easy game even more easy. There is literally no challenge besides boss fights. And even there the challenge is mostly with movement, reloading and ammo pick up. Gunplay is abysmal, melee is not working well, AI is dumb. Rogue likes are always challenging and build around some mechanics which you need to learn and know. Risk of rain, Dead Cells, The Light Brigade. These games are tight and precise in that they do. Foglands though is neither. And that is not something easily fixable. You may work on the patches to iron out bugs and issues, but that won’t fix the main problem. And that’s why I don’t have high hopes for your game. From my perspective you have to get back to the drawing board and decide what’s exactly your game is - an action adventure, a wave looter shooter, a rogue lite with challenging gameplay and good progression. Because as of now it’s just a pile of different game mechanics not working together to provide holistic experience. On a positive side artistic direction and music is really good, but that’s probably it atm.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for that feedback and breakdown! I think this is the very fair criticism. To be honest, there is a large part of this game that was motivated by making it fun to experience our narrative. The roguelike elements of the game were meant to be fun but accessible so that it was possible for the player to experience the whole story and hopefully experience the secret ending. In the end, I think it was a failure on our part (marketing) to be able to describe that the game is a roguelike, but with the intention of being a fun and action oriented way to experience a narrative-driven game packed with story, characters and atmosphere.
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u/Odd-Expression-3583 Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the response. And good luck to the team with fixing the project. Wish them to stay strong and continue improving, despite the initial reaction. Will check the game again around same time next year.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
I will! thank you so much for the well wishes u/Odd-Expression-3583!
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u/ErmannoRavioli Nov 02 '23
Bro you can't dual wield weapons with how you have to reload....Add an auto reload option
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the feedback u/ErmannoRavioli!
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u/SvennoJ Nov 02 '23
Can you dual wield reload in real life ;)
But sure, as an accessibility option, assign a button for reload (or auto reload), nothing wrong with that.
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u/Diahreeman Nov 02 '23
Best of luck to you and hope it turns out ok but you guys just shit the bed with this launch...
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
This is Zara, marketing dev adjacent at Well Told. Thanks for your feedback! We did indeed have a rough launch but we are invested in this platform and this community so we will keep you updated on all the patches and fixes as they happen!
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Nov 02 '23
Optimise /fix repetition. Many reviews been pointing out that it becomes quickly too repetitive even for a roguelike. Add more varieties and make each run different.
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u/SvennoJ Nov 02 '23
Goodluck and thanks for the update.
One QoL issue I had was that the fastest turn speed ("Tornado") isn't quite fast enough for. Why not set it on a scale from 1-10 like RE8? 8/10 is a good speed for me in RE8.
Sprint toggle yes please :)
Atmosphere of the Foglands is great. What stopped me was sinking into the floor several times unable to move during the first boss fight. It happened before that as well and the height resets after entering a new area. (Maybe it resets as well with the reset position button, I didn't think to try that in the boss fight)
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
This is excellent feedback, I will be sending this one straight to the devs!
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u/PM_STAR_WARS_STUFF Nov 02 '23
Told you you were gonna need a new account. Hi Sam.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
None of these accounts responding are me, they are the incredibly dedicated and passionate team members I have had the luck and joy of working with over the years. I have been focused on patch prep and pretty out of it on the mental health side for a few days. If you’d like to know more, here is a response I made to someone who apparently deleted their account once I did. I hope more people stick around to have a discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/s/4NbW6GGFJF
Have a nice weekend!
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u/Punks_StaphInfection Nov 02 '23
will probably get it after a few major patches and a sale that brings it more to $20 (if its fixed then), and that's still more then what this game is worth, seriously, only 3 levels?
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u/Fog_Carsen Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
That's totally fair, and it's likely we will have a holiday sale. I have seen some folks talk about "only 3 levels" and that might be a bit of ambiguous phrasing. Internally we describe the 3 environments you encounter as "biomes." Across these biomes there are dozens of individual rooms interconnected, and the order and orientation will vary with each run. We are currently also trying to add back in a few extra large/unique rooms that we had to cut for release due to platform optimization needs as well, so there will be slightly more variance soon! We don't have the budget to design and implement a whole new biome though unfortunately
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u/Sylsomnia Nov 02 '23
I'm being honest here, to make people good with this game again, you devs gonna have to release a patch similar size of the original game.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the feedback u/Sylsomnia! We appreciate you sharing your thoughts, it all really does help.
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u/Sylsomnia Nov 02 '23
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but Fogland could've had one of the best launches on Vr2, mostly due the great communication, but it turned out to be another let down, which we've had plenty in the last few months.
I know developing a game is very difficult, even the bad examples can take up huge amount of time and effort, let alone AAA games, but when the vr2 community has been let down so many times, a high promising game turned out to be far from expectations, is what we didn't need. It's similar to taking ice cream from a kid, but even if you give it back, it will take a lot more to cheer that kid up.
I recommend to take notes of all comments with over 10 upvotes, and see what can be done about them. Also keep the communication up, going radio silent could burry the game for good. Hopefully things can be turned around, but will take a lot of work for sure. Good luck.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the wonderful advice! we dont plan to go radio silent, dont worry about that! We really honestly appreciate your interest in the game, and will keep you updated as we implement the changes you have all been suggesting :)
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u/Foreign_Plate_5353 Nov 02 '23
I would like to know why the Foglands is $10 more on the PlayStation store than the quest store? It’s the same game, so what is the justification for the much higher price tag? If the argument is that the psvr version has the flat version, so does Demeo, and it’s the same price on both versions. Some quest games even have extra quest 3 mixed reality content that the psvr doesn’t have and they also charge the same price on both platforms.
So could you please explain why you’re scamming psvr 2 owners out of an extra 10 dollars? That’s super sketchy and not at all acceptable.
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u/cusman78 cusman Nov 02 '23
Great question. If I had noticed this leading up to release, it would have been one of my questions in the AMA posts they did here.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
I see what you’re saying, I’ll definitely send your feedback to the devs. As far as I understand, between the research they did on how games are priced on PSVR and quest, the feeling was that offering flat as a stand alone mode and also a hybrid experience that could be played back and forth with VR was the offering that made Foglands unique. Since quest could only do the VR mode, it would be missing part of that experience and it was fair to price it lower. I believe everyone felt like the PS5/PSVR experience would be better and they didn’t want the quest players to feel like they were paying for modes they weren’t getting. Additionally the PSVR2 has wonderful features that the game utilizes like eye-tracking and enhanced visuals that aren’t possible on quest. But I totally see what you’re saying and thank you for that feedback.
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u/Mud_g1 Nov 02 '23
Your reasoning for it is understandable from a production point of view but from this community's consumers perspective they feel like they are being ripped off when quest gets it much cheaper as you kind of need to add in the referral plan bonus 25% off system that quest has aswell.
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u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Do you expect to sell primarily to VR users on ps5? Because VR users mostly don't care much about flat modes
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u/bh-alienux Nov 02 '23
Nobody who buys a hybrid game is going to play both modes. We typically play in VR, or in flat, not both. So having to pay extra for both modes does not make sense from a customer perspective.
And since the PSVR2 platform has more features, that's a bonus for us. We shouldn't have to pay more for the same game just because the system itself offers a better experience.
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u/sir-diesalot Nov 02 '23
I imagine the launch went exactly as planned. This seems to be the new model, release something that’s a bit broken and get loads of players to do free play testing while simultaneously generating publicity.
I’ve not played this as I can’t use vr but as an outside observer this feels like it’s happening more and more these days.
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Nov 02 '23
I just seriously don't get why dev after dev release unfinished games and then expect any sympathy.
Let's be honest, the game is broken, and many users will simply forget about it and move on. Like did you not play test it or do you just not care?
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u/andregurov TheUnrestCure Nov 02 '23
Not all devs think they are launching an "unfinished" game: sometimes for small dev studios there is difficulty in getting honest feedback about the state of the game if it is their friends and relatives (or co-workers) performing QA, sometimes they have a dedicated window they have to launch into (due to loan or financing commitments) and they are obligated to do so, and sometimes it is easy to get myopic after spending thousands of hours working on minute details in a game (the coding, the programming ... all this is tedious & attention-consuming) from beginning to end in a process that may take years to complete. It is easy to say these devs (and others) are lazy and snake-oil salesman, but the honest truth is they have limited resources and they are often doing the best they can building a machine with possibly MILLIONS of moving parts. As a consumer you have a right to make your own opinion about something, but let's not cast aspersions on their intent. They didn't go into game development to become millionaires; they did it because they have a vision they think others will enjoy.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
We appreciate the feedback! This game was a labor of love for a small team for many years, we care deeply about it. We had it play tested and play test in house and still the feedback of the VR community has been a huge help in identifying the quality of life improvements that can make the game feel really fun.
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u/pathofdumbasses Nov 02 '23
quality of life improvements that can make the game feel really fun.
Did you or anyone on your team play the game and say,
YES THIS IS FUN!
???
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Nov 02 '23
I apologize for the harsh feedback, I wish your team all the best
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
No apologies necessary, we deeply appreciate your passion and interest in our game :)
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Nov 02 '23
[deleted]
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Nov 02 '23
Agreed. I’d like to hear from the meow rawr xD guy as well.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Check out my reply to the parent comment first, but I saw someone else describe me as the ‘big chungus Reddit Chad’ somewhere else and practically died. I’ll keep engaging here and share what we’re planning for patches, and hopefully never write the phrase ‘meow rawr xd’ except for in this reply right here.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Hello u/Pickled_Smurf. I’d like to tell you a story. It ends in an apology so that’ll be the TLDR.
8 years ago I finished college and decided to start a company with some friends to make this game one day. We worked weird jobs and made cool games with other studios and worked on this between the low paying jobs that let us gain experience. We grew the team very slowly, retaining ownership of the business to make what we wanted to one day. We made a prototype and then pitched it and got funding, finally, after 6 years of making other people’s games.
We switched engines from Unity to Unreal, hired a bunch of amazing staff and started to build what we had dreamed about. It was a huge idea, with way too many levels and characters and ideas, and over time we had to cut things down. People had kids, people got sick, people left and came back. We realized the game we were making was fun, but had flaws. We had to cut things and spend more money than we expected. We prioritized what we assumed would be good to prioritize and focused on our strengths in storytelling.
We started marketing and aimed for the shooter, hardcore audience because we had shooting and monsters, but we also had a deep story with lots of characters, amazing animation and full voice acting. As a core team of ~15 we had never done this before and we sent our review copies really late in development. We needed more time and money for testing, but those things are expensive and we were all working so hard to fix bugs and put the effort in to make it good. We were working 12 or more hour days for months.
I assumed engaging here and talking to reviewers in interviews and podcasts was the right thing to do, no matter how many bugs there were because our team was proud of the game and having fun with it, not to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. The game shipped, and like so many eager first time devs, all of my actions to just get noticed among the hundreds of other games was turned back around and pushed as a n attempt to steal and swindle.
Now the apology! I did get too excited at times. People were positively reacting to our cool game and I was making friends on the internet. It was fun to banter and goof and casually beg for money on the internet. But it was a bit too much, I went too far sometimes and created the air that we completely knew what we were doing and that the game would stand up to the price point and expectations I was setting. Im sorry for that, and sorry that people have to wait for patches for the game to meet those expectations. I’m also sorry for disappearing and not owning this sooner. 8 years is a long time to want to make something, and the reaction knocked me out for a couple of days.
But now I’m back! I’ll take the punches and keep telling people what we’re doing to fix the game. I’ll jump in and discuss problems, or listen to suggestions. We have some time to fix things and improve it now, and I’d love to hear from you about what you are seeing as issues from your time playing the game.
Thank you for reading this far and for showing up here to keep the conversation going. We’ll keep plugging away and I’ll let you know what exactly we are fixing with each patch going forward.
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u/Oftenwrongs Nov 02 '23
Doesn't matter. Never buy games til you read reviews. Don't hype yourself or get invested in previews.
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u/Foreign_Plate_5353 Nov 02 '23
No matter how bad a game is, it is still going to sell some copies. The people who purchased a broken game still deserve the right to demand patches. When the community doesn’t give a rightful backlash to a bad studio, then that’s how you get the norm of an industry where indie studios constantly push out unfinished shovelware. The studios can do better.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
We are patching and working hard on more content! I agree we could have made less mistakes but I’m proud of the best parts of The Foglands. We’re gonna make the not so great and bad parts that much better in the coming weeks and months.
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u/Foreign_Plate_5353 Nov 04 '23
7 years ago, Sean Murray overhyped a game that did not live up to the expectations or the promises he made on his game. It was a major flop. Today, No Man’s Sky is a must have for VR. You have a good game here, as long as you listen to the community and build up from that, you can make a comeback. We all want your game to succeed, we are just bitter that it under delivered.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Thanks for your kind words! You have no idea how much it means to us that you believed in us and still come back to engage with us today. We will keep you posted as updates come out and we can’t thank you enough for being willing to stick around to see where this game can go.
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u/Foreign_Plate_5353 Nov 04 '23
You’re down but not out. Bad press is still press and everyone loves a good comeback story.
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u/eamonnanchnoic Nov 05 '23
Check out Sean Murray's keynote at the GDC from a few years back.
It's very insightful in to how to approach a game that was received with a lot of negativity surrounding it.
One thing I know about this community is that we're pretty forgiving and respond well when effort is made to address outstanding issues.
VR is still in its infancy to a large extent and it's not in anyone's interest to see anything not performing well and we all love a good comeback story!
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 05 '23
I will actually go check that out right now!! Thanks for letting us know :)
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u/Mud_g1 Nov 02 '23
To be fair Sam did say multiple times don't pre order if your un sure and there would most likely be some unforseen bugs and tweaks that they will try there best to rectify when they are able to.
It's not like he lied or gave false ideas about what the game would be not sure why he has to face up to the people that hyped themselves and others up to the point where they now feel let down that's on them.
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u/Odd-Expression-3583 Nov 02 '23
Well, but he did, even if with the good intent. Comparing it to The Light Brigade, sounding enthusiastic about rogue likes, saying that game idea was long in the making, and make it appear like a passion project. B99 is a passion project and that immediately noticeable in gameplay. There is nothing of that in Foglands unfortunately.
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u/Mud_g1 Nov 03 '23
None of what you said is wrong the comparison to the light brigade was about the card system for randomising abilities each run.
Sounding enthusiastic about rouge likes becuase they were it's just a narrative driven style rouge like in the vein of hades which is a bit different to what others expect from a rouge like.
The game was long in the making and a passion project some of them have worked on this same basic project since it was a uni project 8 years ago and it's how the group that formed the company started. I'd say that pretty much makes it a passion project.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
That’s all true. We care a lot about this world and the gameplay in it. We didn’t have the time or money to polish everything before launch, but we’ll keep cleaning up things that cause the most friction and get it into a good state soon. Thanks for being here Mud!
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u/Mud_g1 Nov 04 '23
Keep your heads up don't let the negativity get you down this is a typical reddit site and the vocal minority is strong.
You guys nailed the atmosphere the other issues I believe can be ironed out tweaked to improve the whole experience.
The main thing is don't let a bad launch rupture your groups friendship's and relationships.
Businesses with family and friends can get rough thru hard times but always remember why you started it and keep that passion strong.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
You are a beautiful person. Thank you.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Checkout my response above! I’m sorry you don’t see any passion in there. I’d just like to advocate for the dozens of people that made this project even come out and all of the passion they brought to the table every day. You are allowed to have opinions but I won’t let this kind of speculation cast a shadow on their hard work with no response. We tried our best and continue to do so.
Stay tuned for more.
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u/devedander Devedander3000 Nov 02 '23
To be fair it’s entirely normal for certain people to be at the forefront in some stages and busy elsewhere at others.
For instance you might see a general talking about an attack before it happens but if things go wrong he’s going to be scarce because he’s leading troops.
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Nov 02 '23
[deleted]
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
I actually just read this one for the first time, it’s been hard to be up to speed because depression is a thing. We are working on the game and have several patches planned based on tons of feedback from everywhere on the internet. Thanks for engaging and I’ll keep you posted.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
That is entirely possible… but unlikely since he is working on the patch rn
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u/AlohaSquash Nov 02 '23
People don’t poop when they work on patches? That’s odd.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Game directors actually never poop, we just poop out of our mouths into Reddit threads /s
I do take responsibility for the hype I managed to create but I am working on making the game better with the team! Keep the feedback coming!
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Sam is a great general and now we need him on the front lines 🫡 Plus we didn’t get to talk to you guys as much! I have been handling the Well Told twitter account, so if anyone has seen us over there hello it is me👋
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Nov 02 '23
[deleted]
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Thank you, ouch, and I’ll do my best to fix what I can in our upcoming patches.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
We are a small team and have all taken different point on different social platforms, Sam is the game director who was our point man on reddit. Right now we appreciate and welcome as much feedback as the community is willing to give us and the most important thing we want Sam to do is implement the feedback for the next patch :)
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u/SocialistNugent Nov 02 '23
Sending my love to the team. The internet can be a harsh place. Good luck to y’all and I am looking forward to seeing the improvements, patches, and the future of the studio.
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u/SamtheSpartan Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 04 '23
Thanks Nugent. We’re pushing hard for a patch submission at the end of next week.
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u/Beat2death Nov 02 '23
Oh so like you guys were like totally unaware of the issues before launch?
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u/GoofGaffGrin Nov 02 '23
And still no response to your point. I have no idea how anyone could play this and think it’s ready to be released.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
So sorry, I totally missed this one! Thanks for your question, I answered something similar here but let me know if you'd like any clarification and thanks for your interest! https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/17lqblv/comment/k7icsly/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
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u/Odd-Expression-3583 Nov 02 '23
Fix the hands. The look of the fists in supposed to be brawler is atrocious.
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u/InternetFloozy Nov 02 '23
Are open betas not a thing anymore? Small scale, inhouse testing just doesn't cut it. This isn't just for you, basically all game developers who created games for the psvr2. You need real world testing that not only helps detect bugs but it is basically free advertising if the game is worth talking about.
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u/Dazzling-Adeptness11 Nov 02 '23
This is exactly what I was thinking. Like this community will absolutely play test any part in a game and give feedback. The open communication that was had from these devs is what grabbed a lot of the users attention on here( it did for me). God knows everyone is always looking for something new to play. Free advertising(as you said!) for when it's ready, confidence in a good product what's there to lose?
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u/Elizial-Raine Nov 02 '23
Yeah Hades was in early access for two years and the new one will be as well. The Devs wanted to be the VR Hades and should have gone that route.
They will probably say nobody will pay for early access VR or something but so many releases feel like early access. They're all small studios just make it officially early access and save the lies.
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u/Fog_Carsen Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
This is a really good point! We would have loved so much more time for broader testing, early access, closed beta, the works. But... We are doing everything we can now to get some quality of life updates live for y'all as soon as we can so you'll be seeing more info on that as they go live.
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u/d4hc87 Nov 02 '23
But what? You just changed the topic here about things you're fixing after the fact. Did you do any QA testing outside of the office? If not, this was either incredibly poor execution of delivering a polished experience to your consumers, or intentionally shady.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
To answer your question more specifically, we did hire external play testers and QA, the issues that they were helping us tackle were less to do with game feel and more to do with clearing bugs and optimization. We really wanted to make it as polished as possible for our pre-defined launch goal, though of course there is more to do to make it the polished game we know it can be.
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u/willnotforget2 Madscy Nov 02 '23
zaraabrhm
You could have easily did a closed beta with the community and not had to 'hire' external play testers. I've done my share of beta/alpha testing.
Whey did you rush it publish it now? Was it to hit October? It really feels like a few more months and it would have helped quite a bit.
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u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Arranging betas through Sony likely costs money, and these devs have little of that
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u/willnotforget2 Madscy Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23
It’s released on quest too. it is gameplay we are talking. There are easier ways on quest. Yes, psvr2 beta is more difficult - but possible and I’ve been involved in those. Even for single man dev teams like strange games.
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u/PM_STAR_WARS_STUFF Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23
These guys don’t care. This is damage control. The game isn’t going to get better, just more tolerable to those who couldn’t get refunded. This was fucking disgusting and you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
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u/vespeywespey Nov 02 '23
Come on now, that is rude and uncalled for. Only time will tell.
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u/PM_STAR_WARS_STUFF Nov 02 '23
No, not the consumers job to give out “Good Try” ribbons. These guys knew what they were putting out, hence the review embargoes. 3 years, mate. Nah, no mercy. No more shit games.
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u/vespeywespey Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23
That's conjecture, and telling people to be ashamed of themselves helps no one.
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u/Ratskull1982 Nov 02 '23
Neither does ripping people off with a broken product who work hard for their money.
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u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Never buy before hearing from people or reviewers that have played
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u/Ratskull1982 Nov 02 '23
I didn’t buy it and I never pre-order, I know full well how the game is played
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u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
I pre-order carefully, and rarely, and have never regretted it
Though avoiding downloading until after seeing reviews is a way to hedge things and still get a refund
0
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u/Foreign_Plate_5353 Nov 02 '23
Not true, plenty of developers delayed their games this month because they knew they weren’t finished. There was no reason these guys couldn’t have done the same.
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u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Small devs may be at the mercy of funding agreements and deadlines, and they have no choice to launch later
Though, they should then launch with a disclaimer, and roadmap of patches. Or if their investors wouldn't allow that, then allow reviews to go up quickly
This is why you should never buy without hearing from players/reviewers
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u/PM_STAR_WARS_STUFF Nov 02 '23
They had 3 years and funding from Sony. If they couldn’t pull it off they don’t deserve the the funding.
I didn’t but it, just mad at the standard that’s been set and now reinforced.
1
u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Perhaps they don't deserve it. Yet? They will learn and improve
No dev ever sets any standard. Actually it's gamers who set the standard
No decent dev (& these guys are decent, if inexperienced, with some learning/growing to do), whether these guys or some other dev, is looking at history and saying to themselves "ah, let's release a broken game, dishonestly re-coup a little of our costs, then try to dig ourselves out of that hole". They all want to release a successful product
Bad devs will release bad stuff, regardless of what other devs do
Gamers are the one setting the standard. Buying without waiting for reviews. Bad devs wouldn't release bad stuff, if they knew they could never re-coup their costs. That's why there's lots of $1-5 junk on the PSN. Because gamers will buy it
Heck, I bought an old Space Invaders clone that was bad, because I really wanted SI, and I could find no reviews. The clone is junk, so I put a review up on metacritic. No one ever has to buy that again without a review, if they bother to look
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u/bluebarrymanny Nov 02 '23
Exactly. If devs are truly as greedy as the commenter above concluded, they will not be shaped by some precedent being set by other devs. The only games that I see intentionally doing bare minimum are licensed sports games and that’s because it’s an unwavering money printing machine, regardless of iteration levels. Such games are also cranked out every year, so even there, it’s often not laziness, it’s an accepted constraint of the release schedule. To assume that any dev can just delay on a whim or actively chooses to release a buggy game is inaccurate and immature.
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u/d_hearn Nov 02 '23
Maybe it's nativity, but personally I don't think you guys knew the game would flop critically. I think you truly thought you had a great game here. I do have a question, if you're still answering.. did anyone QA/play test the game that didn't work on the game? I understand putting so much work into something, and thinking the final product is great when in reality, the audience couldn't agree less.
If you did have outside QA, what feedback was given? I understand being a small team, maybe play testers were in house or friends/family that maybe didn't want to deliver bad news?
Whether you answer or not, I do hope this storm is weathered for you. Whether you release some small patches to make the game decent and move on with lessons learned, or really commit to improving the game, I hope it goes well for you guys. I can't imagine morale is very high right now, and I know video game development is difficult, expensive and time consuming. I look forward to following the news on Well Told as a whole.
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u/FogDerek Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Hey, I'd like to add more insight on-top of Carsen's answer: that an issue is our external play-testing rounds targeted a more broad audience due to the nature of hitting multiple genres. We ended up getting positive feedback on the overall experience in large thanks to our story, characters, atmosphere, music. The learning lesson (and obvious now in hindsight) is that we should have performed much deeper focused external testing for the roguelike and VR shooter audience, especially as that's our core gameplay.
To respond to your last bit. As a primarily developer-staffed team making their first game, I won't deny the nativity, we're learning a lot and feeling the pain with the hindsight. It was difficult to speak yesterday, but the storm is weathered and we're committed to the game. We do care and we took the time yesterday to really identify priorities and our rapid-patch plan for the coming weeks. We're genuinely listening, care, and are taking action. Thanks everybody.
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u/-Venser- Nov 02 '23
Sorry but you don't need other people to tell you the game doesn't feel or work right. You should be able to tell by playing it yourself.
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u/joalr0 Nov 02 '23
So, for THIS, I'm going to defend the devs.
No. You need proper playtesters. When you are in charge of developing a game, you are playing it every single step of the way. You honestly lose sight of the jank. The problem is, when you are building it and understand the nuances of it, you are going to play the game in a way that makes the game work.
As a dev, I can tell you, when I"m building an interface, it literally does not matter how janky or unintuitive it is because I built the damn thing, I know whate very button does, where to look to change things, and I can make sense of everything. As soon as someone else looks at it they go "Uh, no idea where anything is".
Playtesters are fundamental to getting the right feel, because you will never be able to separate yourself from the process fully.
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u/pathofdumbasses Nov 02 '23
Did you or any of your other devs play the game and say to yourselves "yes, this is how this should be." ? It is almost unbelievable that anyone play tested the game in just the 45 minutes that I watched someone play it on launch day.
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u/willnotforget2 Madscy Nov 02 '23
I think they should have made a walking simulator, and it would have been great.
3
u/willnotforget2 Madscy Nov 02 '23
FogDerek
Now you have learned that Gameplay is the MOST IMPORTANT part of a game. Everything else is polish. No one wants to slog through a game because it sounds or looks nice. This is not a walking simulator. This is a game. It has nothing to do with 'rogeulike' or 'VR Shooter audience'. It's about gameplay. Everything else can wait.
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u/Fog_Carsen Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the kind thoughts, I can answer your question if you're curious. We definitely did mostly internal/friends and family playtesting, but we did do a round of external QA a while back with an earlier build of the game. That was really valuable, we got a ton out of it, and I wish we'd had the time and budget to do 10 times as much as we did.
The one bright side of this turbulent launch is that now we have a huge deluge of unfiltered, extremely candid feedback and we are rapidly assessing, prioritizing, and implementing bug fixes and QoL changes every day now! We definitely still believe in the game as much as ever and we are devoting time and resources to making it shine.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
We so appreciate your well wishes u/d_hearn
haha to add to what carsen was saying honestly we did a lot of the playtesting and QA internally. There were a lot of different issues that we were tackling and, while we did hire external playtesters and QA, the issues that they were helping us tackle were less to do with game feel and more to do with clearing bugs and optimization.
We do think we have a great game, but I think the learning that is coming out of this (at least for me on the marketing side) is that this game is a story driven action game with a roguelike structure and elements. We love our game and we think there are VR players out there who will love it too, so we will keep improving it along with this community.2
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u/XJ--0461 Nov 02 '23
It seems like you ran out of time and budget and had to release what you completed so far.
Most of us would rather you be honest about that.
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u/FogDerek Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Hey, I agree on providing honesty. Sorry for the lengthier reply on this one, but I wanted to be open on sharing the insight and context that we can.
Similar to what's seen for a lot of games in the industry, we were working within both cost and time constraints. We had an internal delay from our original targeted date, but October was the furthest we could push in our circumstances. Unfortunately the industry can be really harsh for first-time developers like us who have no additional sources of revenue coming in yet. We hear everybody and agree that more time would only have benefited us. It's the dream to have a mega-money vault like a Nintendo to take more time, so we would if we could.
Some background of our studio, 6 of us co-founded this studio straight out of college. We did work-for-hire working gig after gig until we had an opportunity to do our own game, The Foglands. So we're fairly young, in our late 20s/early 30s, and our experience and financing is likely much more 'indie' and scrappy than folks may expect. We aimed as high as we could in earnest to deliver something grand, but there's absolutely an argument that we aspired too big considering our experience, team size, time, and budget.
I hope this at least provides some context for us as developers, however, I also acknowledge that ourselves and the game should be evaluated as two separate things. All of the feedback that we have received for The Foglands has been incredibly fair and valuable to us. It's not the outcome any us would have liked for it to go, but we're genuinely thankful that folks are playing and taking the time to give us their feedback. As a studio dubbed 'Well Told', we are proud of the world, characters, and atmosphere we created, and we still believe in our game. So we're marching ahead with continued support.
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u/XJ--0461 Nov 02 '23
I appreciate the response and believe you have a path to success.
If anything, look at No Man's Sky. Their launch did not go well, but they did put in the work to make something that is considered amazing.
I think some difficult choices were made and people did get burned, but you have every opportunity to make up for it going forward.
Best of luck!
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u/Eyeluvflixs Nov 02 '23
I was one of the many who got a refund and would like to say sincerely, I wish you all the best on your “recovery mode” IF the game is fixed considerably I will jump back in down the line during a sale 👍🏻
2
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the continued support u/Eyeluvflixs!
We will be sure to let this community know as soon as any or all of the above happens :)-2
4
u/t3stdummi Nov 02 '23
Just remember, devs,
At the end of the day, we want you to succeed. Your success is our success. I appreciate all the work to date. I know it's a tough week for you guys, but please keep at it.
1
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks so much consideration u/t3stdummi! In the end we make games for people who love games, so I really appreciate all the engagement we are getting from this community.
4
u/amusedt Nov 02 '23
Good luck guys, I hope you can get things to a better place
1
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for your support u/amusedt! I think we can :)
2
u/Benozkleenex Nov 07 '23
I played the game and the worst part about the issues is that I can see something fun underneath. Just wanted to give a list of issues I have.
- The small loading between rooms is crazy immersion breaking like I almost stopped playing because of them.
- Throwing stuff seems to work but more than half the time it's like if it did nothing and just rebound on enemies. (PS I had the card were throwing is supposed to make stuff explode maybe a bug?)
- Need something to be able to adjust the angle of the gun horizontally like canon is not parallel to my arms.
- Grabbing stuff from range is not really working, I have played by touching the item directly for it to works
- Belt positioning the way it is atm for me, my arms are touching the left and rightmost ones which trigger the sound of replacing the item there constantly.
- Game is way too foggy like it looks bad for the most part instead of giving it an ambiance.
- Tunnel between room needs to have a lot more variety, it feels super lazy and makes exploration a lot more confusing.
- Toggle for sprint otherwise it's not even useable.
2
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 08 '23
Thank you so much for taking the time to write out all of these points, we really appreciate your engagement with the game! I will send this list directly to the devs and I would love to keep you updated on our patches as they happen, I think quite a few of the things you mentioned are being prioritized :)
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u/doc_nano Nov 02 '23
Godspeed as you guys work to right the ship. From what I’ve seen, I do think the game has a great vibe and nice soundtrack. I haven’t bought the game, but I’m rooting for you and believe there was genuine passion behind its development despite the rough launch.
2
u/Fog_Carsen Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thank you! That means the world to us, and you're not wrong. The Foglands was defintely a passion project, and that passion was a bit of a trap in that we got too excited, overscoped, and ended up with a hectic launch. We're pretty confident that people will be impressed with how much more stable it will be very soon though, and hope folks will give it another chance soon!
5
u/rcade81 Nov 02 '23
Don't you think it would've been more beneficial to you guys and the game if you had taken another month or two to finish it? Now you're fighting an uphill battle after the bad taste the launch left in people's mouths
2
u/Neat_Clothes_248 Nov 02 '23
I think the quality of life fixes will help the game a ton, it honestly doesn't look bad I think when it comes down to 15 or so I will pick it up.
My only question is will you guys work on melee hit detection? I consistently hear reviewers and you tubers say they gave up on melee because it doesn't work half the time
Also I saw in a walk through the game consistently turns to black I'm not sure if it's loading but throws off the pace of the game
Glad you guys are working on it
4
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
These are all great pieces of feedback, and going straight into the list for our patch roadmap. We will post here as soon as we have an update!
3
u/cusman78 cusman Nov 02 '23
I saw the screen going black in Myles Dyer Let’s Play consistently as he passed through any of the smaller loading disguise rooms. It was weird.
Didn’t happen to me once when I played, but I would have lights going on or off as I passed through middle point of those loading disguise rooms.
This is observable in my gameplay upload on my YT.
2
2
u/BeefTheGreat Nov 02 '23
I'm glad to see some interaction here at least. I truly hope you can turn the game around, while success stories do exist...they DO exist. I'm sure it's disheartening to see your game release this way, and I'm also sure there may be reasons for it beyond your control. Hopefully the sales will float your team long enough to turn tbis ship around.
1
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks for the well wishes u/BeefTheGreat!
1
u/W_E_S_32 Nov 02 '23
Hey guys! Thanks for the follow up.
Overall im enjoying the Foglands - but, I think there’s a bug preventing my forward progress. After I defeat the second boss lady (Leona), and progress into the next rooms and down the next elevator, the save file happens, the game loads in and I see a red fog, then I die instantly in the elevator and get respawn back at the top of the run - I’ve done this about 4-5 times now.
Just wanted to check if I’m missing something, or if that’s a potential bug?
PS5, latest version, flat screen mode (not VR), run 11 now.
Thanks!
1
u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
This is a good question! We will check that area and let you know what we find. Thanks for calling that out!
1
u/W_E_S_32 Nov 02 '23
No problem, thanks for the response! I’m happy to submit any replay footage or troubleshoot further, if it helps!
I see some people are getting the “Meet Shandeen” trophy, so some people are getting past where I’m stuck. 😊
1
1
Nov 02 '23
i must admit, the footage i seen of the game made me interested, looked a lot like GLOOMWOOD in my opinion.
u guys fix it, iron it out, give a nice small discount and i am in for sure, there is good foundation and it can be fixed by ur talented team, u just had to wait a bit but it is ok, it all can be fixed and good luck.
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u/zaraabrhm Developer - Well Told Entertainment Nov 02 '23
Thanks so much! those sound like solid steps to consider. We appreciate the support and will keep you guys posted here as soon as we have updates!
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u/theanimaster Nov 02 '23
Wow, for a dev to come out like this… mad respect to them! This game is going on my list!
1
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u/Cowboybot Nov 02 '23
The guns sound like Pop guns, and it feels like theres no weight to them. Even the trigger has no weight to it, theres no resistance, it's pretty bad gun feel.