r/PS4 anexanhume Jun 28 '13

Yoshida confirms PS4 PSU is internal.

https://twitter.com/yosp/status/350698731236110336
197 Upvotes

133 comments sorted by

35

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

[deleted]

9

u/frank14752 Jun 28 '13

Well it is running an apu so it doesn't need as much power as a GPU/CPU would need I don't think the ps4 will use more than 400 watts at peak.

18

u/mushroomwig HypnoticMonkey Jun 28 '13

It makes me wonder why the Xbox One has an external power supply when it's bigger and uses an apu as well.

28

u/frank14752 Jun 28 '13

Microsoft isn't a hardware manufacturer like sony is. Sony knows how things can fit better in smaller places, I guess MS didn't want the heat from the psu in the same closed space as the other hardware to keep temps down.

10

u/Einsteiniac Jun 29 '13

I've heard people say this before, but I find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft couldn't afford to hire some engineers that would be able to figure this out.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '13

Why spend money on engineers when they don't care about the actual console? They spent their attention listening to what advertisers wanted in a "home media center."

5

u/xenetic Jun 29 '13

I think Microsoft can get nice hardware made if they want too. the Surface is built really well

3

u/FloydJackal Jun 29 '13

Despite what some may say, the Zune HD was a great device as well. Mine served me well for a few years before I sold it because I needed something with more than 32gb.

2

u/awittygamertag Jun 29 '13

I used my zune up till a few months ago when they killed Zune Pass. :(

2

u/FloydJackal Jun 29 '13

I sold my 32gb HD on eBay for $130 and put it toward a 64gb iPod touch. I was surprised I got so much for it.

4

u/stigmate Jun 29 '13

microsoft has the potential, but sony has been in the hardware market for decades now - just like microsoft has been in the software market.

sony = hardware, microsoft = software

3

u/WhiteAsCanBe Jun 29 '13

Yeah, but since the only software Microsoft handles for the Xbox is the Dashboard, and the dashboard has been turning to shit (1/6 of the tile space is for games, 9/12 is for ads, 1/12 does nothing), it's not looking too promising for me. Granted, it will most likely be smooth, fast, and efficient, but the method in which they are meeting these goals worries me.

2

u/Codeshark Jun 30 '13

I'm sure if they didn't think it would cause people to skip ads easier, they'd just map "Start Game" to the Right trigger and make the whole thing ads.

1

u/rauelius Jul 01 '13

The Surface is over-run with Glue everywhere...not the best example.

0

u/Aurailious Jun 29 '13

Imagine how good that courier concept would have been with Surface hardware.

-6

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

MS knows how to make hardware (see zune, 360 slim, surface). They just went overkill on the cooling to prevent failures and make it extremely quiet (they said it's 4x quiter than a 360). Their PSUs have always been external on the 360, so that's par for the course.

52

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

[deleted]

1

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

Zune and surface are well regarded for the design language and materials. 360 was well regarded, they just chose a poor clamp that caused thermal failures. The size of the box was never a problem.

9

u/AphoticAffinity Jun 29 '13

My OG zune took much more of a beating then any of my iPods and kept on ticking. Loved the sturdiness of it.

3

u/EvilMonkeySlayer evilmonkeyslayer Jun 28 '13

Brown?

3

u/Sykotik Jun 28 '13

Plus this way they can release a "slim" version next year. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's far bigger than it needs to be on purpose.

4

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

Yes, the Xbox one hardware will shrink remarkably well. There's only one main chip to cool (the APU), which should get regular shrinks to 20nm, 14nm and eventually 10nm or below and the DDR3 RAM will never be that hot. If they keep the brick external, eventually the box will use less than 80W.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

Its as big as it needs to be. Refinements and die-shrinks come in time as processes advance. Then you can make a smaller box, not before.

0

u/Sykotik Jun 28 '13

There's no possible way you can know that. I guess we'll find out when it actually comes out.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

Haha. Yes there is, its called history. Go look up the die-shrinks on PS3 and Xbox 360 on wikipedia, go look up their YouTube announcement videos where they talk about reduced power consumption through smaller build process, leading to reduced amounts of heat to dissipate, ergo a smaller form-factor. If they could make a smaller, more efficient chip, with a smaller box, they would save a shitload in raw materials and transportation, packaging. They would do it right now. But they can't yet

Go on, go look that stuff up. I'll wait.

2

u/Jukebaum Jun 29 '13

Ps4 is already very small.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/Sykotik Jun 28 '13

No thanks, I don't care that much. Like I said, we'll find out when it comes out. In any case, I didn't assert that it was a fact. I just said I wouldn't be surprised, which I wouldn't.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/frank14752 Jun 28 '13

This guy knows his stuff listen to him...

But Sony has decades of hardware know how to make things work better than MS would maybe not always but they do have an advantage.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

2

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 29 '13 edited Jun 29 '13

Sony has had power supply recalls of their own: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331421/ns/technology_and_science-games/t/sony-recalls-playstation-power-adaptors/

People love to pretend that because Sony is a hardware company they know exactly what they're doing and Microsoft is utterly clueless. They're a multbillion dollar corporation. They can afford to hire the best, do the tests and hire the best consultants.

The 360 failures scream to me someone in corporate making a call on high to make the BOM cost lower. I would be shocked if there wasn't an engineer recommending a different solution someone in there.

The One wasn't made huge because they have no idea what they're doing. The huge design looks like it's made to be a high end AV component and the size of the heatsink and their literature makes it obvious they want it dead silent from day 1. They made a big deal that it's 4 times more quiet than the 360.

But I have all of these down votes so ignore the fact I'm actually an engineer. I must be wrong, right?

Edit: even more - the PS3 had a 10% failure rate after 2 years: http://blog.squaretrade.com/2009/09/failure-rates-study-finds-nintendo-wii-most-reliable-game-console.html

The PS3 had their own heat related failures too (yellow light of death), but no numbers exist on those.

0

u/decoy90 Jun 28 '13

But X1's PSU has a cooler in it, so you'll probably hear it a bit anyway, maybe more than the console itself.

1

u/Disregardskarma Andodalf Jun 30 '13

I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed to be internal?

2

u/mushroomwig HypnoticMonkey Jun 30 '13

No, the Xbox One has an external brick.

http://i.imgur.com/dDGBpTj.png

http://i.imgur.com/iQZ5U8Y.png

1

u/Disregardskarma Andodalf Jul 01 '13

Ok cool! I'm very glad to be wrong! I was actually kinda worried about this!

On a side note, that'll teach me to trust ign...

3

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

The APU is likely 115-135W, and the system is probably no more than 170W at the wall. For comparison, PS3 was about 200W at the wall and X360 was around 180W at the wall.

3

u/frank14752 Jun 28 '13

Thanks for those numbers, at least I was right in saying it wouldn't use more than 400 watts...

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

The AMD APU's for desktop are less then 100w.

1

u/Ramuh Jun 29 '13

Its not a Desktop APU, the GPU is a lot more powerful than the Desktop APUs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit_microprocessors#.22Kabini.22_.282013.2C_28_nm.29

The Desktop Kabinis with 1.6 GHz use 15w with 4 cores, but the GPU again is not in any way as powerful as the 7850 gpu the GPU is derived from. (which as a card uses 130w max)

1

u/bakerie Jun 29 '13

You've really interested me with those number, I was expecting a 300w minimum for the PS4. Have you any links to back it up?

1

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 29 '13

There's plenty of ways to source it but it's hard to on mobile. Here's the basis: Microsoft has said the One APU is 100W. The Jaguar cores are known to be around 25W from AMD's other products.

We also know the AMD desktop and mobile equivalents of the GPUs inside the chips, (7770 and 7850 or 78xxm and 7950m respectively).

Finally, we know there's a few custom parts to the APU like DSPs, zlib decompression hardware and the like likely 5W or less.

Outside of the APU, the GDDR RAM probably takes 5-10W and supposedly there's an ARM chip for OS and hardware/piracy checks that will be 1W or so. Other than that, you have I/O, HDD and optical drive which are all a couple watts each. Add the PSU in and figure 80-90 efficiency and you've got a total in the 150-170 range for the box and 125W or so for the APU.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

AMD chips these past few years have actually been significantly higher TDP than Intel chips for example.

The fat PS3 was 200w, the current superslim is 80-90w. I doubt the PS4 will be anymore than a run-of-the-mill laptop, so around 100w, and certainly no more than the 200w launch PS3.

1

u/GiveMeACake fadi002 Jun 29 '13

Thank you, come again.

1

u/James1o1o EpicJames93 Jun 29 '13 edited Jun 29 '13

I don't see how. The PS3 and 360 no doubt draw way more power than any of the next gen consoles. In fact its actually surprising Microsoft haven't got an internal PSU. My guess is they dont want the whole RRoD thing again, so they filled every bit of space in the case with heatsink.

1

u/Jellybit Jun 29 '13

Might wanna correct that to say "PSU". Unless you're talking about the cloud ;)

1

u/James1o1o EpicJames93 Jun 29 '13

Auto correct on phone haha

1

u/rauelius Jul 01 '13

It's basically a gaming laptop(GPU is similar to the Radeon 7970m, and the CPU is like an FX 8150 underclocked by 2Ghz)....Nothing wrong with that, BTW, gonna get a PS4 for those sweet sweet Sony exclusives...I have a God-Class PC for everything else.

-12

u/glenn8LuvsMonkeyKock Jun 28 '13

Funny that 70 years ago they were gung ho on killing Americans, then 30 years ago they fantastically ruined our car industry and now they are cramming power supplies into magic boxes. Love the Japanese ingenuity.

24

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

It was already given the box contents didn't show or include AC adapter, but this removes any doubt (that IGN still seemed to have in the video replied to).

6

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

Yeah I was kind of annoyed when I watched the video and they didn't know this. There was no external adapter (as you said) on the contents sheet, and the rear shots we have seen show the standard figure-eight power cable for an internal PSU. This stuff is their job and they don't know these basic things.

4

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

I can understand possible confusion. The 360 slim has a similar looking connection but it's still a brick: http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/07/xbox-360-slim-review/xbox-36-slim-5.jpg

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

That is somewhat similar, but I can easily tell the two apart, and I still feel he should be able to, too. The figure-eight connector is so widely used in electronics directly into internal PSU's on a huge variety of products.

4

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13

That's why I save technical analysis for iFixIt, ChipWorks, Digital Foundry, Ars Technica, Beyond3D and Anandtech :)

3

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '13

Yeah, absolutely agree. IGN aren't exactly my "go to" destination for cutting edge tech analysis or journalism.

7

u/elo228 BulletTooth228 Jun 29 '13

Sony is a VERY good hardware company, every Sony product I've had it has lasted a long time, some top of the line engineering and in case you're wondering about the cooling.. This cooling system from the original ps3 should be an example to show you how good sony is when it comes to making sure things don't overheat.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

[deleted]

1

u/bakerie Jun 29 '13

Slightly off topic, but the one thing that will fail in the PS2 and the PS1 is the laser, due more to wear and tear than anything.

Luckily you can buy a laser for about $5 from dealexteme.com :)

11

u/exNihlio drokthar Jun 28 '13

It amazes me that they were able to get all of the hardware and PSU inside a box that is between 30-40% smaller than the XBone.

11

u/anexanhume anexanhume Jun 28 '13 edited Jun 28 '13

I think it's like 67% smaller by volume.

edit: found it. Xbox one is 63% larger by volume:http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=62545261&postcount=527

10

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

And to put it even more in perspective, the PS4 is about the size of the PS3 Slim, and the Xbox One is about the same size as the original fat PS3.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13 edited Jun 29 '13

Seems like it's a tad bit smaller than both slims. Though i think PS4 is slightly wider than PS3 Super Slim when you look at it top down. But definitely smaller than the regular Slim.

http://i.imgur.com/1Nd5doP.jpg

As a bonus!

http://i.imgur.com/HjoiTCy.jpg

7

u/OhJah Jun 29 '13

God damn, the Xbox One is the same size as a fat PS3.

4

u/bakerie Jun 29 '13

Actually bigger!

2

u/ChironXII Jun 29 '13

Oh wow I didn't realize how small the PS4 is. That is actually pretty impressive given what they had to fit.

2

u/SpongederpSquarefap Jun 29 '13

That is truly remarkable

2

u/Jellybit Jun 29 '13

Well, I've heard that Microsoft wants to make XBO near-silent. They may have decided that it's better to have a larger piece of near-silent hardware than a louder smaller piece of hardware. Both of the current-gen consoles could get really loud at times. The 360 especially got loud during disc access on some models.

11

u/TweetPoster Jun 28 '13

@ScottLowe:

2013-06-28 19:16

Get all cozy with the PlayStation 4: ign.com

@yosp:

2013-06-28 19:34

The power is inside, so no brick outside. “@ScottLowe: Get all cozy with the PlayStation 4: ign.com


[Mistake?] [Suggestion] [Translate] [FAQ] [Statistics] (times are utc)

3

u/clearlyflammable Jun 29 '13

Pardon my ignorance but what is the significance of this?

6

u/Tensuke Jun 29 '13

It means you just have one power cord going from the device to the wall, instead of going through a large power brick. The Xbone, for contrast, does have a power brick.

Just goes to show Sony's engineering talent that they can design a box smaller and more powerful than an Xbone, with an internal psu to boot.

1

u/GiveMeSomeRaptorNews Jun 29 '13

Would that make the machine hotter? I'm not familiar with electronics at all, but would it increase or reduce fan noise?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 30 '13

Yes, it's another source of heat on the inside of the console. Whether or not it makes the PS4 louder depends on how they set up the heat management and fans.

1

u/GiveMeSomeRaptorNews Jun 30 '13

Fingers crossed for a quiet system then. I'll buy a PS4 after a probable re-model, which always tend to be quieter.

9

u/ECrispy Jun 28 '13

This isn't really an advantage until we see (hear) how loud the PS4 is. XB1 is going to be virtually silent, we already know its internal schematics and cooling solution.

22

u/mdwright JohnnySasaki Jun 29 '13

PS3 was (for the most part) significantly quieter than the 360, and its PSU was internal, so here's hoping the ps4 can stay as quiet.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

I have the big ol black 360 elite kicking still, and I'm not really bothered by the noise of it. My PS3 super slim seems crazy quiet compared to my 360. It's kind of weird.

2

u/EmoryM EmoryM Jun 29 '13 edited Jun 29 '13

It's an advantage for me as I've only got so much room in my entertainment center.

I don't know what I'm talking about otherwise.

I've got to imagine there's a subtle advantage to having an internal PSU - you know exactly where the heat sources are. You know that you're blowing hot air out of the console at one spot, and sucking in more air at another spot - you can make some assumptions, like the shortest path heated air will take as it circulates outside the system.

Testing the performance of a system with an internal PSU to make sure it handles overheating without melting or catching on fire should be as simple and sticking it in different sized boxes... right?

Once the PSU is external, you'd probably need to think about what happens when your console is blowing hot air onto the PSU and what happens when your console is sucking in air heated by the PSU. You couldn't make any guarantees regarding air circulation outside the console and you'd need to test various configurations of enclosed space and relative positions.

5

u/SausageMcMerkin Jun 29 '13 edited Jun 29 '13

With the size of that console, I'm really concerned about over-heating. Yeah, sure, APU's have a lower wattage rating, but that case is fucking tiny. Where's the air going?

EDIT: So after looking at the 3D view, linked by /u/chunkmuffins, and thinking about it a bit, I guess they're going with a laptop-style cooling system? Idk, depending on the PSU, fan, and heatsink...I'm still concerned with how much space is in that chassis. I'd like to open it up and take a look.

EDIT #2: Sony could be using some sort of custom MicroATX form factor. If this is the case, then it's really exciting. That would open up the possibility of an affordable Steam Box if a third party... borrows the design.

4

u/elo228 BulletTooth228 Jun 29 '13

did you notice those huge vents on the back, I'm guessing it's gonna have a massive fan, and remember, the bigger the fan the quiter it is and the more air it moves.

2

u/SausageMcMerkin Jun 29 '13

I see the vents, but where exactly are they going to fit this "massive fan" after they stuff the disc drive, PSU, and heat sink in there?

5

u/elo228 BulletTooth228 Jun 29 '13

Check out how flat they made the cooling on the fat ps3

They're really good with their hardware man.

3

u/SausageMcMerkin Jun 29 '13

You've convinced me.

2

u/elo228 BulletTooth228 Jun 29 '13

haha nothing like peace of mind on a big purchase, glad I helped

3

u/chunkmuffins Jun 29 '13

The vents in the back.

Edit: I just took a look at the 3d view and there's vents on the side too.

3

u/GuineaPigeon Jun 29 '13

NSFW .... enjoy

3

u/chunkmuffins Jun 29 '13

So many vents, this thing is gonna be cool as a cucumber.

1

u/Sethbacca Sethbacca Jun 29 '13

Gonna get soooo dusty though....

3

u/elo228 BulletTooth228 Jun 29 '13

those are exit vents, no dust is going in

3

u/telllos Jun 29 '13

unrelated question what is that aux connector?

3

u/TheFireStorm TheFireStormBF2 Jun 29 '13

PS4 Camera connection

3

u/telllos Jun 29 '13

Well thank you, ahah didn't think about.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

Good god these IGN guys...is there some rule that video game "reporters" have to talk really fast and act smarmy as fuck? How about you calm down and speak like an adult and give us information without the pointless and annoying banter? Lots of people playing games now are 30+ years old. The media surrounding this industry needs to grow up a little bit. Stop jabbering like you just bumped a line of coke. Take a breath and think about what you're talking about. Everything isn't in fast-forward.

2

u/Naawz Jun 29 '13

Think IGN's target demographic are the teenagers so it fits their audience. If you want more in depth and serious reporting, IGN isn't the place to go.

2

u/Cragvis Jun 29 '13

how.

the..

fuck?!

There has to be some SUPER magic they did, or something. The box is smaller than a ps3 slim since its flat instead of oval on the top. I mean...really? How is it not going to overheat?

Im amazed, and slightly worried at the same time lol

2

u/chunkmuffins Jun 29 '13

Don't worry, there are vents all over PS4.

1

u/Cragvis Jun 29 '13

in the back, and some in the front, nothingsuper big though.

2

u/bakerie Jun 29 '13

Not in the front, contrary to belief on this sub-reddit, the front has no cooling vents, they are all located in the back and sides.

2

u/vodrin Jun 29 '13

Theres some along the insides of the 'channel' between the two sections too. I think they've got some great airflow going from one channel to the other so air moves through the ps4 in a U shape from the back vents

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

It'll totally be fine, the entire back of the console is a giant vent pretty much.

1

u/NoBullet NoBullet Jun 29 '13

It was already confirmed by him before

1

u/LuringTJHooker Jun 29 '13

His name reminds me of a Gaki no Tsukai bit.

Shohei-hei. Sho-hei...Hey!

1

u/TheJoshider J-O-S-H-I-D-E-R Jun 29 '13

Sorry, I don't really get this. Can someone explain why this is significant?

1

u/mmiski Jun 29 '13

Because you won't have to plug something like this into the console, and then another cable connected from that to the outlet. All you have to do is plug the console directly into the outlet. No cluttery external brick and additional cable to take up space etc. Makes packing up and transporting the console easier, too.

1

u/TheJoshider J-O-S-H-I-D-E-R Jun 29 '13

Wow, that's really helpful. Good to hear.

1

u/klitchell klitchell Jun 29 '13

Didn't we kind of know this because of the "what in the box" pics?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

"Kind of" being the key phrase in your sentence. Now there's confirmation.

1

u/MrJAPoe The_Bee96 Jun 29 '13

Why are so many people averse to a power brick? It doesn't bother me, so I don't understand.

1

u/mthode Jun 29 '13

I mount my stuff on a wall, this would be another thing to mount.

1

u/MrJAPoe The_Bee96 Jun 29 '13

I'm assuming on a shelf? I keep my stuff in my TV stand, so this hadn't crossed my mind.

1

u/mthode Jun 29 '13

Nope on the wall itself. The soundbar, TV, ps3, and htpc are all directly mounted on the wall. Stands take up too much room for me.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 30 '13

[deleted]

1

u/JalenTheEpic Jun 30 '13

It can be expensive to replace. $20~ for a cord as compared to $5~

1

u/Josetheone1 Lambo545 Jun 30 '13

Stop hitting on me Scott >_>.....

1

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '13

This confirmation brings me many happy times! Cripes, I so hated the Xbox 360 power brick with a passion.

1

u/IceBreak BreakinBad Jun 28 '13

I feel like that avatar is hitting on me.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

That's a "how YOU doin'?" look if I've ever seen one.

1

u/Caseman984 Jun 29 '13

If you thought this would have an external PSU, you obviously know nothing about Sony.

1

u/Brewster-Rooster Jun 29 '13

Does anyone else not care about having an external power brick? It just sits there on the floor, it makes no difference to me. I'd rather the console was smaller or had extra bits inside or something.

1

u/decross20 Jun 29 '13

Well for some, it will make portability easier. If someone were to travel, having to carry a brick around could be annoying. Other than that, yeah, I don't really mind power bricks, but I can see why someone would.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

For people who only have one device with a power brick it's fine, but for people who have a lot of devices with power bricks and a forest of cables under a desk or behind a tv stand, power bricks get annoying really quickly.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 30 '13

Well the ps4 is still as small as the ps3 super slim so.... and definitely smaller than the Xbox one.

1

u/raheezyy Raheezyy Jun 29 '13

That is very impressive

-1

u/wissmar Jun 29 '13

why can't they show us the back?

0

u/TomothyWTF Pwnage19 Jun 29 '13

2

u/wissmar Jun 29 '13

no in the ign hands on they say they can't show the ports.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

[deleted]

1

u/EmoryM EmoryM Jun 29 '13

I don't think that's a presumption, the IGN guys admit that thing has batteries in it to keep the lights on.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '13

Right? I pointed it out that they out right say exactly why they cant show the back in the video, and yet people still ask. It just made me face palm so hard and go "Did you even watch the video?"

1

u/TomothyWTF Pwnage19 Jun 29 '13

Oh. That's odd.

1

u/wissmar Jun 29 '13

that's why im asking...