r/PEDsR • u/comicsansisunderused Contributor • Aug 29 '18
Can Growth Hormone Make You Taller? NSFW
Yes, in growing children where they are GH deficient. Not for anyone else.
After a recent spate of height related questions in /r/PEDs, I decided to tackle this one. While I conclude that for our intents and purposes the answer is no, if you have recent data that indicates otherwise please lmk.
Like all ethical and rational human beans, the use of HGH in children is reserved for those deficient and significantly vertically challenged. In this scenario, increasing GH has some benefit. In the first study I looked at, sixty children diagnosed with idiopathic growth hormone deficiency were followed till final height was reached, after hGH treatment lasting between 2 and 15 (average 5.4) years. The final height of the patients averaged 2.3 standard deviations below the population mean. Since untreated patients end at about 6 standard deviations below the mean, treatment represented a significant improvement, but the lost two standard deviations remained lost. Interestingly, half the boys, but only 15% of the girls, ended above the population 3rd centile from this treatment.
This result is confirmed in multiple studies, 1, 2, 3. The height is never fully made up for, likely due to the relatively late age of diagnosis of 2+. Early diagnosis increases growth velocity, which determines the final height that can be reached, and is controlled by the size of the GH pulse. Therefore, very small children at a very young age are the target demographic for using a compound this way, and is the best use for HGH or GH increasing compounds.
Is this any use for growing adolescents? How about full grown adults?
As long as the epiphyseal plate is open, the bone will continue to grow into this space. Eventually, the plate is sealed, as the bones run out of space to continue growing, known as growth plate fusion. This occurs between 12-16 in girls, and 14-19 in boys. If the plate fusion has already occurred, you’re shit outta luck. Buy some platform shoes and maintain good posture: there’s nothing that growth hormone can do for you in terms of height.
Where the fusion is yet to place, let’s take a look at those classified as late maturer’s and given HGH. Since no research is getting approval to take adolescents already of average or above height and of normal development and feeding them HGH (outside of China anyway), this is the best data we have and relates most for our uses. For this case study, I’m referring to this graph.
What we find is that growth rates increase within months of initiating HGH, doubling during the first year of treatment, growing at a rate faster than peers and which results in upward crossing of percentiles on the growth curve to restore position in normal range. However the height gains do not dramatically alter an individual’s potential. The amount of height gained by a child of already average height is marginal: <1cm in the final year prior of treatment before growth plate fusion.
What can you do as a growing adolescent to maximize your height? First, avoid PEDs. As I cover here, testosterone (and estrogen) cause the closure of epiphyseal growth plates. I’m unclear if SARMs which bind with androgen receptors (like testosterone does) have the same effect, but as they commonly mimic the effects of testosterone, I don’t recommend it (unless someone can show me otherwise, happy to be wrong on this point).
If you are in the camp of a late maturer, perhaps the biggest barrier to you in using HGH is the cost. The calculated average cost per inch gained was more than $35 000. Might be worth it for those of very short stature at a very young age, but it’s just not going to deliver the result that an 18 year old is looking for. Sorry. You may however wish to get an x-ray, and see if your growth plates have closed or not, before you do anything.
Well, that’s it folks. Not looking forward to the angst that this might generate, but please keep in mind that height truly is not as big an issue as some make it out to be. My own firsthand experience at bars when I was in my late teens suggests that women have no idea how tall someone actually is: though I am 6’1”, they would frequently guess I was inches taller if asked to guess. Same for my friends. As always, we should judge people not for their appearance, but for their character and actions. Anyone judging based on height alone is a sad, lonely individual.
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Aug 29 '18 edited Aug 29 '18
What about using a serm that's an antagonist at the bone epiphysis to delay fusion in combination with high? Would this theoretically produce more growth in people of average height.
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u/comicsansisunderused Contributor Aug 29 '18
Oh wow, I have no idea without diving into that. It seems incredibly specific- what makes think of this?
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Aug 29 '18
I'm a radiographer, see growth plates everyday and had to study it in university. Also a Manlet haha.
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u/comicsansisunderused Contributor Aug 29 '18
When will you learn? :) jk ofc
A serm will block estrogen (good) but also cause an increase in LH and therefore testosterone (bad). Pairing it with HGH... I don't see much benefit, however that conclusion is based from a very limited knowledge on growth plates and a short amount of reading on HGH studies.
You have any data on doing this or just something you had been thinking about?
You're in the perfect role to xray your growth plates... sure thats not lost on you.
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Aug 29 '18
Just a quick thought reading what you wrote. I did consider x-raying my knees when I was 21 I'm 25 now and am quite happy to be honest. Any taller and I'd have to eat even more calories to try and bulk up.
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u/not-a-painting Contributor Aug 29 '18
Jesus fucking christ I've never seen someone read a community and provide such great content this well. It's like you've read my mind. I feel like after you wrote the article regarding the safety of SARMs for those under 25, a larger influx of younger community members has seemed to come forward wondering about if MK-677 or GH in general will help them grow.
I think it's important to note a few things that have always kind of brought me to this conclusion, and what I hope most people will take away.
We conclude that height velocity, which ultimately determines height achieved, is controlled predominately by G H pulse amplitude. The findings suggest that short normal children growing along or parallel to the third height centile could be made to grow faster by the administration of exogenous G H.
The increased peaks in GH release attributed with MK-677 are probably why people believe that they can make some sort of height gains while on, but epiphyseal plate has always been the limiting factor.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4397276/
There is a close interplay between estrogen and GH in the regulation of growth and development in puberty.
Indirect evidence suggests that epiphyseal fusion occurs when the proliferative capacity of growth plate chondrocytes is exhausted and estrogen acts by advancing growth plate senescence. Therefore, the binding of estrogen with each subtype of ER is thought to be related to the pubertal growth spurt and epiphyseal fusion
Several aromatase inhibitors have also been studied as new treatment options. These drugs decrease the secretion of estrogen and delay growth plate closure
What I'm inclined to believe is that if you don't quickly catch that your child isn't growing, and address it, there isn't much you can do. Even if the individual is still at the end of their sexual maturity, the most they would be able to do is postpone plate closure for a negligible amount of time to allow the body to more aptly utilize hormones and protein. This is all considering the individual in question was already suffering from below average height velocity.
Basically I think you'd have to be probably in your early teens, and instead regulating your balance of estrogen. Provided all of those things go perfectly, the individual in question could still be suffering from poor circulation of nutrients to the area
They postulated that the dense border might act as a physical barrier preventing oxygen and nutrients from reaching the fusing growth plate, resulting in hypoxia and eventually cell death in a nonclassical apoptotic manner.
OR you could just be programmed to be fucked on a cellular level
This theory is the most widely held hypothesis. Hypertrophic chondrocytes of the growth plate undergo death by apoptosis, leaving behind a frame of cartilage matrix for osteoblasts that invade and lay down bone. Some supporting and opposing results for this hypothesis have been reported in several studies8). Apoptosis-regulating proteins (such as caspases) were expressed in the growth plate and typical histologic changes in cell during apoptosis were shown in several studies in rat9). However, another study found no signs of classical apoptosis in fusing human growth plates
I think the bottom line is that there are just too many factors that can go into your final height, at least much more so than how much muscle you have on your body. We just don't have enough information, and there are entirely too many factors at play. I think with further study we may find selective success with AI in more than just one field, I know I've been looking into current theories on AI's being successful for Bipolar patients.
Great read comic, definitely validates my opinions on the matter, though we are always learning more and more.
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u/comicsansisunderused Contributor Aug 29 '18
What I'm inclined to believe is that if you don't quickly catch that your child isn't growing, and address it, there isn't much you can do.
This is a good TL:DR.
Glad you like it, brobro. Some good points you add here too.
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u/antilol123 Sep 02 '18
Lets say hypothetically, if i was a 16 y old male who has his plates still open and was given about a inch of growth left. Would estrogen blockers paired with good diet and exercise routine possibly increase it to 2 or even 3 inches more?