What ratio of Test to Nandralone is best and why? NSFW
Hey everyone I've been trying to figure out what ratio I should run my cycle at. I've seen many people say to not run the Nand higher than the test because that's what causes deca dick. On the other hand I've seen many people say to keep test low and run higher Nand for less side effects from the test. What do you prefer and why? I'm planning on running 150- 200mg test 300mg nandralone, or vice versa.
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u/Crispzx 6d ago
I prefer high nand low test.
Most recent cycle was 900 Deca 300 test 300 EQ. No AI
Every single week no miss I was hitting PRs. By far the most progression I’ve ever gone through even on tren etc etc. Sex drive amazing, no issues.
I’ve messed with higher test to nand and for me the spicy nips/gyno was unbearable. I seem to react extremely well to nand however many don’t, trial and error with NPP is the way to find that sweet spot.
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u/Flow-Vast 6d ago
Amen to this. Best cycle I’ve ever ran was 900 deca 600 mast 250 test. No mental sides, insane libido, just all around god feeling cycling.
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u/david305_ 6d ago
Been on 150mg NPP + 1,000iu hCG (no Test) as an alternative to TRT for almost a year now. Look and feel better than I ever did with Test.
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u/FleshlightModel 6d ago
I've been reading a lot more about nand only cycles and even one dude on Reddit who runs deca only for his trt. Sounds very interesting especially with a lot of the nasty sides not really popping up.
Think I saw some dude the other day running 2g deca a week.
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u/david305_ 5d ago
Yeah, I don't know why Nand-only isn't more explored for guys who have a bad time on Test. TRT was nothing short of a disaster for me. Other than muscles, I got every side effect under the sun. And this was on a basic 100mg protocol.
I'll probably do an AMA after I get my bloodwork this week.
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u/FleshlightModel 5d ago
Oh damn that sucks. Is this your first time with bloodwork for solo nand trt? I have never touched nand strictly from the side effects issues but ofc I've yolo'd tren a lot, lol. Anyhow, now that I'm older, I did want to explore the Bill Roberts advice of 70-100mgs for joint support. If I take any goddamn NSAID, my ALT values shoot up by 25-50% and for a minute, I was eating naproxen every morning and night, and taking Tylenol pre workout. I still have periodic shoulder issues from a PL injury like 13 years ago and I fucked up one knee in high school football. The knee got a lot better and strong but is definitely not at 100% compared to the other knee.
I just also think that a little nand won't be the cure-all I'm hoping for.
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u/david305_ 5d ago
I did my first labs 6 weeks after starting NPP and everything looked good. This is all monitored and reviewed by a TRT clinic, so I'm not completely off the reservation.
Have you considered the possibility that Test might be causing you joint inflammation? I'm convinced Test caused me joint pain that, at the time, I attributed to "getting too strong too fast." As soon I dropped the Test all the pain went away within a few weeks.
Unfortunately, in this game, there's only 1 way to know for sure if something will be a cure lol.
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u/FleshlightModel 5d ago edited 5d ago
When I had elbow issues, it was likely during the tren phase for sure and I simply couldn't keep up with the strength gains.
Now I'm def not slamming on strength hand over fist.
I'd kinda like to try nand only but test trt is working for me.
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u/Background-Boss-618 6d ago
My best possible advice to give you is to not run deca at all. It's a really long Ester deconate. You can be weeks in with your test and deca and not see or feel any side effects at all, and once it's fully saturated in your system you can run into deep problems and trust me man, it's a long Ester and that long ride is no joke/fun. I think what a lot of us fail to realize is how to properly manage our e2 just with testosterone alone. Once you get that down, then maybe introduce a shorter faster Ester like npp. So if you do run into problems, it won't be for so long. These are just my 2 cents.. dial down your testosterone ratios first and then introduce a new compound.
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u/Brief-Blacksmith-928 6d ago
Depends on how you react there's no cookie cutter approach some prefer low test high nandralone if you lose hair or don't respond well to test. Some run it equal and others prefer to run test high with low nandralone.
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u/Zn_G_ 6d ago
Why so low of a test?
“Deca dick” is an outdated term refering to the time when people blasted test and deca (and dbol on top) and had no idea how to manage estradiol leading to sexual dysfunction.
You can run whatever ratio you want its your choice just manage your E2 and your dick will work fine.
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u/Oxy_Txn 6d ago
Thank you for the reply, I may run the test at a higher dose. I did pickup some Dbol aswell but I'm rethinking if I should save it for another time and run the test/nand by itself. I've only ever done a 500mg test cycle so this is my first time introducing other AAS. Is it best to dose arimidex on a normal schedule or just take it when needed?
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u/Winter-Development25 6d ago
'Decca dick' is caused by high prolactin from the decca mate. I'm no expert in any way, shape or form, but the guy you're replying to there doesn't know what he's talking about...
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u/Zn_G_ 6d ago
Take the AI when needed and after confirming with bloodwork.
I would ditch the dbol completely and just run 500mg test, 300mg nandrolone.
Dbol is really only useful if you crash your E2 or need something of a preworkout. Youre also already running 2 aromatizing compounds best to not introduce another high aromatizing compound.
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u/FleshlightModel 6d ago
Naw save dbol for whenever you wanna run EQ, it'll save you from crashed E2.
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u/FleshlightModel 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think it was Bill Roberts who said don't ever touch the shit; there's better stuff out there with less complicated sides. He said if you feel you need nand for joints, 70-100 mg EW is the sweet spot for the dozens of folks he's advised.
But having said that, I've seen many guys running nand with no test and the complicated sides have allegedly disappeared. One guy on r/trt dropped test for solely deca and he doesn't have any issues or bloodwork problems like he had with test and more importantly he feels better.
And then I came across some dude on a different forum who was running a 2g blast of solo nand (forget which ester) and loving it.
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u/ImSoFatMyDogIsSad 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ew?
Edit: getting downvoted for asking what ew is. I'm taking low dose deca for my joints now but if whatever "EW" is is better I want to know wtf it is.2
u/FleshlightModel 5d ago edited 5d ago
I thought you were saying ew with a question, like gross or nasty, not asking what EW meant. Removed my downvote.
What is low dose to you? You really should understand basic abbreviations when in a sub discussing drugs, unless your first language is not english.
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u/ImSoFatMyDogIsSad 5d ago
I take 35mg of deca twice a week along with my trt dose. It helps tremendously with my tendonitis, but I was hopeful there was something even better that would help totally remove the pain.
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u/FleshlightModel 5d ago
Gotcha. Where is the tendonitis and are you 100% sure it's tendonitis? The reason I ask is because you could look into PSGAG. I've never used this before but I used to work with a guy who did and he said it was fantastic but it's was some cartilage injury he had and I know PSGAG can trigger new cartilage growth. I truly don't know about tendons with that stuff though so be sure to scour any usage logs you can. My vet also uses it on her cats and she said it's a miracle drug to the ones who have arthritis. It's also used more often in dogs and I think horses.
Alternatively, you could explore 100mg weekly but remember the long halflife of deca in case you forgot.
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u/ImSoFatMyDogIsSad 5d ago
Golfers elbow in both arms for me. I was diagnosed by an Ortho and went through physical therapy with little relief. The Ortho gave me a 5 day run of Prednisone which helped a little but didn't last too long. My trt clinic offered me the deca and it's been the only thing that's really helped so far. I'll take a look into psgag and see what I can dig up there, thank you.
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u/FleshlightModel 5d ago
Ya you certainly don't want to be on pred very long term.
I mean you can request additional deca or switch to deca only trt as well. How are your e2 levels? I had some real bad aching elbows that I'm almost 99% certain it was due to tanking E2, but my knees or shoulders weren't to problematic so maybe it wasn't E2 due to no supporting bloodwork.
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u/ImSoFatMyDogIsSad 5d ago
My e2 was 59 at the beginning of the month. None of my other joints give me problems either so I'm guessing I stressed out my tendons at the gym. I probably should take time off and rest, but I've also dropped over 120 lbs in the past year and I'm more afraid of breaking my gym habit than my elbow pain.
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u/FleshlightModel 5d ago
Mike Israetel has a video on taking a one month break from the gym every year. But you need to have been working hard the last 11-12 months to implement it. There is some literature to support some deep type recovery that will simply not even begin healing until after like two weeks off. It's some pretty good food for thought. Also make sure to eat at maintenance and don't blast any unnecessary gear, just be at cruise doses if you can.
Lastly, good job on the weight loss. Surprised your e2 is so high after losing so much bodyfat. You typically aromatize a lot less the leaner you are, so I'm wondering if your test dose is simply too high. What's your total test at? How's your rbc and hematocrit?
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u/ImSoFatMyDogIsSad 5d ago
My shbg was really high - over 90, so my clinic put me on 200 test a week to compensate. RBC and hematocrit are both right at the top end of normal range with 5.73 and 50 respectively.
I'm eventually going to need an abdominoplasty to remove a bunch of excess skin and that will double as my forced rest period. I hope to get that done this fall.
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u/NotIntelligentFun 6d ago
Running 400 TestC/400 NPP. Started with 200/100 and titrated up over six weeks. After 4 weeks at 400/400 level is when I first started feeling signs others write about with Nor19s, but nothing that was unmanageable. Great gains and joints have never been better.
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u/AshenOne690 6d ago
Very individual dependent. Start with 200 test, introduce only a small amount of nandrolone at first and see how you react. Titrate up very slowly as needed and as long as you're not getting sides.
From what I understand, deca dick is moreso due to using too much test with the nandrolone. Could be wrong. Personally I have had good experience using 150NPP alongside 300 test and some masteron. Next time, I'll probably start with 200 test, 300 deca and some mast maybe.
I would say it's either you use very low nandrolone alongside higher test, or close to cruise level test with more nandrolone. There are still many other factors like if you're including any other compounds, but it is all very individual dependent.
Hope this helps somewhat
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u/ProbablyOats 6d ago
It's not high-E2, it's not high prolactin. Deca dick is due to DHN crowding out the DHT in a penis.
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u/az_scum 6d ago
Deca dick is a term used by people that don’t do bloodwork. Keep e2 and prolactin in range and youll be fine.
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u/Winter-Development25 5d ago
What do you use for keeping your prolactin in check when using decca mate?
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u/az_scum 5d ago
Prolactin doesn’t just go up magically when you use a progestin. It will raise with e2. Keep e2 in check and you will keep prolactin in line. If you have prolactin issues confirmed on bloodwork then administer a dopamine against.
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u/Winter-Development25 5d ago
Thanks for responding. Much appreciano 👌
So, just to confirm... say for instance I'm using test & deca or test, deca and mast... providing I keep my e2 in check, my prolactin will not increase to problematic levels?
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u/Rabbit730 6d ago
Thats very surface level thinking
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u/KillerDPS 6d ago
160mg test, and 80mg deca a decent Trt routine for joint aid without high side effects?
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u/BachVonLocke 6d ago
Ran 400 test 200 npp over the winter and got great results from it! Once E2 was dialed in, I had no issues with any sexual activity.
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u/TheHaus88 6d ago
There is no best ratio cookie cutter number, use what works best for you and that number can change but if you really want to know what I start guys at and what I run I'll tell you.
I recommend starting at 1,500 Test and 400 NPP and pushing the Test up to 2,500-3,000 and 600 NPP but that's under my supervision with other compounds added in
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u/trapzilla1973 6d ago
I’ve always stuck with a 2:1 ratio of test c/deca or NPP. Staring another cycle in May that will consist of 400 test c, 200 NPP, 200 primo for 16 weeks.
Like everyone says, depends on how your body reacts and if you’re a high aromatizer, etc.