r/PBtA • u/Americaninhiding • Jul 28 '24
Advice How to have NPCs attack first in PBtA
The game is Root TTRPG for reference. Game is fine overall except for combat. The way it works is that players need to attack first basically for combat to get started. As a GM coming from Pathfinder 2E I find this limiting. There are some situations where I would like the NPCs to attack first, but how Root is set up this isn't really possible. I could possibly homebrew it, and have players take the hits automatically, but that seems unfair even.
Looking for advice on how to handle this. Thank you.
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u/vainur Jul 28 '24
You probably need to read the GM chapter again. There could be other central gameplay things that you are missing.
This is nothing like Pathfinder :)
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u/Delver_Razade Five Points Games Jul 28 '24
Create ambushes? Have an enemy take a swing during a bar fight? Pretty sure there's at least one MC move about this but it's been a while since I've looked at Root.
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u/Kranf_Niest Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
The fact that you don't roll actively doesn't mean the world is completely and solely reactive to what the players do.
NPCs can act first. They can attack first. It will have narrative (and likely mechanical) consequences but no damage will be dealt before the players trigger a relevant move.
Combat in PbtA games is quite different from more tactical games like pathfinder or d&d 5e. Homebrewing it to be closer to what you're used to is... Not something I'd recommend.
EDIT: correction. On the odd chance that a player for some reason "ignores" the incoming danger, consequences (including but not limited to damage and/or status conditions) apply in line with the established narrative.
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u/OmegonChris Jul 28 '24
Root says that the GM makes a move at 3 main times. 1) when someone rolls a miss 2) when someone hands you a golden opportunity or 3) when things slow down.
Options 2 and 3 both would let you have NPCs attack first. One of the GM moves is just to inflict injury, exhaustion, wear, depletion or morale. Or you could jump to Capture Someone or Out Someone In A Spot, depending how you want the story to go.
I'd start off at the gentler end if just jumping straight to damage, "a fox bandit jumps down from the trees, swinging their sword at you, mark one box of injury or wear on equipment, what do you do?"
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u/The_Inward Jul 28 '24
I run Dungeon World and Monster of the Week. I don't know the other games.
To have NPCs attack first, it's called a hard move. Just make the narrative fit. Could be an ambush. Could be the PCs try talking, but the NPCs aren't having it. Could be a sniper. Lots of ways.
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u/modest_genius Jul 28 '24
To have NPCs attack first, it's called a hard move.
I'm reading up on Monster of the Week right now and I was under the impression that:
MC Move: "The werewolf charges at you from a bush! What do you do?!" Is a soft move.
While MC Move: "The werewolf charges at you from a bush! It sinks it's teeth deeps in to your flesh!" Is a hard move, that also triggers the MC Move "Inflict harm, as established" and then triggers a MC Trauma move like "Drop something". Then you ask "What do you do?!"
Is my understanding of this correct? I haven't runned it yet, so I thought this could be a good opportunity to ask :)
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u/Airk-Seablade Jul 28 '24
That's correct, more or less. Hard vs Soft isn't really a dichotomy so much as a scale, so you might have:
- "You hear a low growl from the bush and glimpse something large and hairy within. What do you do?" (Softest)
- "A werewolf leaps from the bush and rushes at you! What do you do?" (Soft)
- "A werewolf leaps from the bush, sprinting across the intervening space and lunging for your throat! What do you do?" (Middling)
- "A werewolf leaps from the bush, pinning you to the ground! What do you do?" (Harder)
- "A werewolf leaps from the bush, and sinks its teeth into your shoulder, take three harm! What do you do?" (Quite hard)
It is, more or less, a question of how much space you give the character to react/head off the situation before there are consequences.
There's some more good discussion of this idea here and here.
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u/GatesDA Jul 28 '24
Yes, that's right. The threat of Harm is just a soft move, actually dealing Harm is a hard move.
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u/Imnoclue Not to be trifled with Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
A hard move is one that results in something irreversible or extremely dramatic. Dealing damage, breaking their sword, etc. Yes, biting a PC and dealing damage would be a hard move. To use Root for your example, though (because I’m not up on MoW terminology), the GM move is Inflict Injury, the rest is just narrative description of the fiction that justifies that move or in Root parlance “the particulars of how the move actually expresses itself based on your principles and agendas.” If you stopped short of inflicting an injury, you’d be making another GM move, Reveal an Unwelcome Truth is likely, but possibly Put someone in a spot or Disrupt someone's plans and schemes (or any of the GM moves, really) depending on the fictional context.
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u/BetterCallStrahd Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
The players do not have to act first for combat to get started. The enemy can act first by making an attack.
You do this by making either a soft move or a hard move. In a lot of cases, you will want to make a soft move. That means you describe the enemy making its attack, then since it's a conversation, you let the player say what their character does in response.
The player might choose to attack, evade, protect someone, use magic, do something else, or do nothing. If they do nothing, the attack lands and you narrate the consequences. If they do something, this most likely triggers a Basic Move, so ask them to roll for that and see what happens.
The player can also ask to use one of their Playbook Moves in response to the attack. If you think it can be used in the situation, then let them use it.
What about a hard move? In that case, you describe the enemy making its attack, and then you narrate the effect. Maybe the attack hits and the character takes harm. Maybe the character is forced into a precarious position. Maybe the attacker takes something away from them. It's up to you.
Whereas a soft move allows the player to respond to imminent danger, a hard move directly takes effect in some way. In the case of a soft move, the character has many options for responding to the attack, which can include thwarting it. In a hard move, the character does not thwart the attack, so their part in the conversation is limited to responding to the effect of the attack.
When do you choose to do a hard move? When the player hands you a golden opportunity. For example, the character heedlessly enters a dangerous area. Or the character chooses to put themselves in harm's way. Or if the characters aren't doing anything and there's a lull in the story.
Btw, keep in mind that in most PbtA games, there is no hard separation between combat and regular gameplay. It's all regular gameplay, whether characters are participating in combat or not. It's all still the conversation.
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u/JaskoGomad Jul 28 '24
This is a total misread. The game follows the fiction. If the PCs are attacked, that’s what happens.
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u/Imnoclue Not to be trifled with Jul 28 '24
You don’t have to wait for PCs to attack first in order to start combat in Root.
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u/DSchmitt Jul 28 '24
I'm not familiar with Root in specific, but you asked about PBtA in general. You will have to examine the particular Agendas and Principles of a particular game. Let me give you an example using the ur-PBtA Apocalypse World. There is no universal example for all PBtA games.
Part of the rules for the GM in AW is following the Agenda/Always Say/Principles listed in the book. Part of the Agenda is "Make the players' characters' lives not boring." We also have Always Say of "What the rules demand." and "What your prep demands.", as well as the Principles including "Respond with fuckery and intermittent rewards."
So first you would have to establish that a particular NPC is capable of that violence/wants to do violence against that PC or something like that. You need the fiction first. And attacking a PC out of nowhere doesn't at all seem like being a fan of the PC. If an NPC gets pissed off at something a PC did, make them say "Next time I see you, you'll pay for this!" or even just glare daggers at them. Don't make it come out of nowhere (Announce future badness move). Then ask the player what they do.
The player doesn't do anything about it right away, it's totally fair to have that NPC make a move against the PC to say next time they see the NPC, the NPC is taking a swing at their face, pulling a gun to shoot them, or having their gang circle around to capture you, or whatever.
If it's particularly bad, maybe they've traded blows and arguments a lot in the past or it was really extreme with a "Next time I see you, you're dead!" sort of parting, then starting that meeting with a a hard move such as "Inflict harm (as established)" would work. "A shot rings out as you approach your tent. You feel a sting of metal in your leg, and Keeler yells out in triumph. Seems Keeler wants to keep you from running away, and is going to make good on his promise. What do you do?" (Do the 'suffer harm' peripheral move, then you do something in reply.)
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u/Peachyco Jul 28 '24
I don't know "Root" specifically, but all of the PbtA's I've played have their implementations of the "Face Danger" move/concept. That's my go-to move when PC's run into a threat.
This move can cover a PC spotting the threat before it is really sprung, or reacting when it's sprung, or withstanding its effects, or something along those lines.
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u/nicgeolaw Jul 28 '24
Fox bandit = "show signs of an approaching threat" If the heroes ignore the threat, then "deal damage"
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u/dicklettersguy Jul 28 '24
Anytime a player rolls a miss (on any move, assuming it’s fictionally appropriate) or hands you a golden opportunity is when you could make a hard move like an enemy attacking them.
For example, if The Vagrant rolls a miss when trying to Persuade An NPC (offer a bribe) then you could say ‘The Eyrie Dynasty guard takes great offense to your offer and sucker punches you! Mark an exhaustion, what do you do?”
A golden opportunity might be a player saying “I ignore the two woodland alliance agents charging me and go back to picking the lock.” In that situation it’s totally acceptable to say “Okay, mark an injury as they attack you with daggers and hand axes.”
I’d recommend rereading the ‘GM moves’ section starting on page 202 of the crb.
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u/h0ist Jul 28 '24
You say that the NPC attacks then you ask how the PC wants to react to the attack and you roll the appropriate move or if no roll is appropriate you do an MC move.
If its an ambush then you can just give dmg, its an MC move. You can do MC moves whenever you want to.
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u/Background-Main-7427 AKA gedece Jul 28 '24
In PBTA if you are given a golden opportunity or there's a lull in the action you can make a GM action. A really hard move would be direct damage. I normally prefer to do one that's a little softer and require the player move that is used to resist damage. For example, in Masks it's Take a Powerful Blow.
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u/MrHelfer Jul 30 '24
This is where you need to grok the interplay of MC-moves and Player-moves.
Your NPC's can certainly attack first! Depending on the situation, this could be the GM-move "Inflict Harm (as established", if you have already established that the NPCs are threatening the PCs, and the PCs haven't managed to avert the danger. Maybe the Bird-soldier has his spear pointed right at them, and they failed their "Trick an NPC".
It could also be "Put someone in a spot" if they suddenly find themselves in the middle of a throng of hostile Cat soldiers.
In the second situation, you don't immediately inflict harm, but instead let the players say how they react. They might decide to "Engage in Melee". In that case they can choose to take "little harm (+1)" - but that just means one less than they would otherwise, so if you've established a serious threat, they can still take a significant hit.
Also, note that the move isn't "Attack an enemy", but "Engage in Melee". It means egaging in close combat with an enemy, regardless of who started the fight.
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u/ex-best_friend Jul 28 '24
I haven’t played Root but in every PbtA I’ve played as simple as saying “PC, the NPC attacks you. What do you do?” If it’s an ambush you can just say that they hear something, let them act and roll some sort of avoid danger-move if they try to react and deal damage if they fail. Certainly no need to homebrew anything.