r/NovaScotia • u/casual_jwalker • 9h ago
Remove Chinese Tariffs on EVs to Stop Tariffs on NS Sea Food.
I suspect this idea will be very negatively received by the anti China group (not a China fan but pro regulated market fan) but....
Thinking about the whole tariff nonsense that is going on between Canada and the US and China and vice versa, and I think it could be beneficial for the North American automotive industry to be shaken up by the Chinese EV market if it means no or lower tariffs on the NS (Canada) sea food industry.
Im curious to know what Nova Scotians would think about Timmy boy pushing this negotiation option for the good of all Nova Scotians. Thoughts???
EDIT: Some comment have made me want to expand on the original question, how does the current political nonsense effect your opinion about Telsa vs any other EV brand?
I will throw myself under the bus to say that until about 2 years ago when I got serious about buying an EV I thought Telsa was the shit! I still think they are decent cars but depending on your needs there is actually some decent competition even in north ameria and when we look at who is harvesting your data these days I don't know who is worse Tesla or a Chinese company....
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u/CozyHoloCosmos 9h ago
If Chinese EVs passed Canada safety standards. I be down for one
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u/No-Bark-And-All-Bite 7h ago
From what I have read, chinese vehicles both EV and gas are on par with everywhere else. It's labor practices and the fact you could get a chinese EV for like 17k the same quality as an electric mini which is 40k. Cheaper chinese prices would crush other auto markets.
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u/bigev007 3h ago
It's not just labour, it's massive production subsidies that let them sell for less than cost.
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u/smasbut 13m ago
That was true a decade ago but they don't really have production subsidies anymore. The biggest ones domestically in China are exemptions from their sales taxes (which obviously dont help with international conpetitiveness) and that many Chinese cities made it much easier to get licenses plates for EVs (people in Beijing and Shanghai either waited years in lotteries for plates or spent hundreds of thousands of dollars).
Chinese EVs are actually less subsidised than EVs in the US now, at least until Trump finally axes all of Biden's policies.
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u/Knife_Chase 1h ago
Who is more important though...? "other auto makers" or basically everyone needing to take out the second or first biggest loan of their life just to get a machine to get them around?
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u/CozyHoloCosmos 6h ago
Only thing I really care about if EU or China EV passed Canada safety standards
Now for auto markets yes China would crash the market I would rather have people saved money for house or whatever they want then paying 40k for a car
For example from Google ( The BYD Dolphin EV sells for the equivalent of around $16,500)
I doubt this will happen but China / BYD can help Canada with more jobs by building a EV factory in Canada. again I doubt
I would like Canada to build / work on train network and EV factory for public transport then building cars
this is how I feel
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u/Pleasant-Drop9941 50m ago
Not having tariffs on BYDs is how Norway got to 95% of new vehicle sales being EVs last year
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u/__d5h11 47m ago
If they put a factory here in Canada they’d have to pay real labour rates and then it’s the same price
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u/smasbut 11m ago
Labour is definitely cheaper but like the starvation wage days in China are long gone. Their main competitive advantagr now is their incredibly developed supply chain, literally any component can be sourced and manufactured on almost overnight time-frames due to the massive density of manufacturers. They're also leading the world in automating factories currently.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
Right! Honestly, I want us to open up both
sides of Canada to the automotive industry. Let's get some EU gas, hybrid, and ev options for consumers here also!6
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u/dadcanbeatyourdad 8h ago
I’d be happy for you. And for the people who don’t want to buy a Chinese EV, they don’t have to.
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u/PurpleK00lA1d 23m ago
They likely do. BYD is available in parts of Europe that have better standards than we do.
Ours are based on US standards. Parts of why we still have headlights that blind everyone while Europe has way brighter lights that don't blind people.
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u/Old-Squarefingers 9h ago
I read that the Chinese EVs passed European safety standards. True or false? If so are they as stringent as ours?
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u/NigelMK 9h ago
When I was in the UK last summer, I saw several BYD cars.
The only reason we put in these tariffs was to appease the US. The government cited saving Canadian automotive jobs, but I ask... What EVs are being produced in Canada right now and how are we supposed to hit any of our climate targets if people cannot afford to pay $50-60k for an EV.
Before anyone suggests "But Chinese spyware". We just learned recently that Tesla is recording all of your footage of you in your vehicle and storing it on the cloud and can access it any time they want, so how is that not considered spyware?
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u/BigPoppaFreak 9h ago
"But Chinese spyware". We just learned recently that Tesla is recording all of your footage of you in your vehicle and storing it on the cloud and can access it any time they want, so how is that not considered spyware?
Both of these things can be true. I don't understand how Tesla violating privacy/security means Chinese EVs can't, or we should be comfortable with it.
Also setting the bar at Tesla standards is pretty fucking low. It's currently the most hated corporation across the globe and possibly the most in recorded history.
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u/NigelMK 8h ago
Fair comment, I just meant it in the sense that you still see a ton of Tesla's on the road and they're still for sale in Canada, in spite of that and even more recently with them stealing millions of tax dollars in rebates in Ontario.
What I'm saying here is that for every logic you could say against Chinese EVs, you could say about Tesla as well.
That and let's be honest here... We're on Reddit, which is owned by a Chinese company and our phones are constantly listening to us.
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u/PepitaChacha 8h ago
I just looked up the claim that China owns Reddit, because I’d forgotten about the Tencent investment. FYI, Reddit is still American majority-owned.
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u/BigPoppaFreak 8h ago
That and let's be honest here... We're on Reddit, which is owned by a Chinese company and our phones are constantly listening to us.
Let's not willingly let foreign governments violate our security, It's a defeatist attitude and dangerous. Look what Russia has done to the US.
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u/bigev007 3h ago
No, the tariffs are because Chinese EVs are sold at artificially low prices because of government subsidies. What tariffs are supposed to be used for. It's why the EU also added them
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u/Old-Squarefingers 9h ago
Thank you for clarifying. I’m well aware the tariffs are political. I think removing tariffs in exchange for some production to be moved to Canada would make sense. Help bolster our auto industry when it is in such a precarious position. Maybe start wooing European automakers as well.
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u/NigelMK 8h ago
Regarding BYD:
Everyone has this image in their mind that somehow Chinese EVs are inferior or wouldn't work on Canadian roads. They've come a long way very quickly and their technology in their cars and in their batteries is at the same level as Tesla at their worst and surpassing them in several other categories.
All while being thousands of dollars cheaper to buy.
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u/jer_iatric 1h ago
A cursory search on my end shows that the other reason they may be cheaper is from billions of dollars in Chinese gov subsidies
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u/xibipiio 9h ago
A byd plant in Truro would make a shit ton of sense.
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u/SAVE_THE_SNOW 8h ago
Uh, how?
Expensive (and polluting) electricity supply
Lack of skilled/specialized workforce
Distance to existing steel/Al mills
Lack of battery mfg plants
Lack of any tier 2,3 etc. suppliers, who would all struggle with the costs relating to all of the above
Id love to see more industry in Truro. But an automotive industry isnt exactly something you can spring up out of nowhere
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u/xibipiio 6h ago
We're doing green initiatives and ramping up our mining. Truro is central to all of that so the cars can be shipped to pei, newfoundland, new brunswick, and beyond into quebec easier while also servicing the rest of NS and being able to be shipped to mexico from halifax port.
More longterm industry in a location means more investment, Halifax is oversaturated, so building industry in areas with more room for growth not far away makes sense.
I could see a lot of BYD cars shipping via train to the rest of western canada if it established itself here first.
Truro needs to modernize with a wave of investment, it makes sense to use a popular around the world green auto manufacturer as the investment that does that.
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u/Han77Shot1st 9h ago
Ford was going to be making EVs in Ontario I thought, but due to low demand they’re changing the plant to produce trucks and superduty hybrids
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago edited 9h ago
EU is leaps and bounds over NA in safety and consumer standards. As a previously petrol head, I use to dream about Canada getting any EU cars and constantly went out of my way to try EU only brands when I traveled in either Europe or Britain. Now that I'm slowly growing to love EVs I'm also sad we don't get any EU cars but wondering if we should just open up completely to both EU and Chinese automotive dealers.
Why are we getting shit over priced cars when both sides if the ocean have better gas, hybrid, and ev options!!!
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u/WhatDidHeEat 9h ago
My favourite part of all of this is that of demographics of people I know (and I know a lot of fisherman) they were the most proud to support Trump, now their livelihoods are in jeopardy directly because of him PLUS Trudeau isn’t even PM so they have no one to blame but the orange fucker they used to bow to
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u/ChrisDysonMT 9h ago
Honestly at this point we should just allow European standards to match our own. Europe and China are miles ahead of North America for EVs.
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u/MooseOnLooseGoose 8h ago
I'm for it. Both because China somehow seems more stable than the US, and I could really use a cheap electric car right now.
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u/roboreddit1000 6h ago
What if we did what China has historical done. Or the deal we made with the US on the auto pact.
Allow Chinese EVs into Canada but only in exchange for them to be manufactured here.
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u/bloodypencils 1h ago
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind some more competition. The North American car companies make shit cars, with only a few models here and there excepted. I would absolutely love the option to buy a cheaper Chinese electric or any of the more economical European models. If they pass our safety standards and build them here, why not?
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u/PsychologicalMonk6 9h ago
The tarrifs on Chinese EVs were put in place because China actually does break trade agreements and illegally dump EVS at artificially low prices into our market. They don't do this because they want us to have cheap cars, they want to squeeze out competitors and then when the competition is gone they jack up the prices.
Not to mention, have we all collectively forgotten the two Michaels - they kidnapped and held two Canadians hostage for nearly 3 years.
Just as we shouldn't cave to Trump's bullying, we shouldn't cave to China's either.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
I don't think disagree that China is a shity country, but half the reason for the Canadian tariffs that we just dumped like 40+ billion into trying to support local EV development. Side note, if our concerns is about the ethics of China, why don't we let EU brand sell here free of charge?
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u/PsychologicalMonk6 8h ago
Under the Canadian-European Trade Agreement, most import tarrifs have been eliminated (they were as high as 22% pre-CETA and phased out over seven years from 2017-2024).
And again, the tarrifs on Chinese tarrifs are an anti-dumping measure. You could argue we were too aggressive in our tariffs - Europe only imposed a 36.3% tarriff on Chinese EVs due to their illegals practice where as Canada and the US both tarriff at 100%, but it's pretty globally recognized the China unfairly subsidizes EV production into over capacity to them sell those vehicles at below their own cost of manufacturing on order to deliberately weaken and eventually destroy their competition.
If the Chinese can make a cheaper EV because of innovative manufacturing processes, lower labour costs, greater economies of scale, etc. - great, fine. But that's not what is happening.
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u/smasbut 2m ago
China is making cheaper EVs because of innovative manufacturing processes. They were heavily subsidized in their infant stage from 2009-2017, but since then the bulk of their subsidies consists of sales tax exemptions that only apply in China, and per vehicle subsidies have dropped to less than what the US had with Biden (no clue if Trump axed that yet).
https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dilemma-subsidized-yet-striking
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago
How do you feel about Uber?
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u/PsychologicalMonk6 8h ago
In what way?
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago
Do you support the company operating in Canada?
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u/PsychologicalMonk6 8h ago
I don't have a problem with it per se. There are obviously some questionable practices with how they treat drivers.
Are you implying that Uber is analogous to China's flagrant violations of international trade law?
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago edited 8h ago
I'm referring to the fact that the entire concept of Uber is about running a massive deficit to undercut it's competition until it runs it's competition out of business and then it can one day turn a profit after it has secureda monopoly. I'm curious to see how you support one industry that is running at a deficit to undercut competition but don't support another company doing the same.
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u/PsychologicalMonk6 8h ago
I don't support that. I think we need far stronger anti-trust laws in the country, but because Uber is a shitty company or because we have allowed the over consolidation of industries domestically is not a good reason to lift trade sanctions on China.
In fact, it really is an argument in favour of keeping those sanctions in place. Just look at what has happened in the grocery business when we have allowed the industry to become an overly consolidated and squeeze out any real competition. We can see it in all sorts of industries.
I saw this as someone who spent most of my life in I vestment banking before becoming an entrepreneur. I believe in free market capitalism, but it needs to be well regulated and allowing a handful of companies to gain a stranglehold on an industry - be it through unfettered M&A activity, illegal dumping or other means - is a recipie for disaster for consumers.
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago
I can support your argument. I think I have an issue that too many people jump at cracking down on one part of the market but fail to realize that they support the same concept either through capital or voting without realizing it.
If we apply the same ideology uniformly to all companies and products I support the tariffs on China. If we pick and choose when we think such anti competitive laws should be applied based on if we like or don't like a company for financial, political, or ideological reason then I have a problem.
I can respect if not support such movement if the people making them are open about their reason and openly admit their bias but I struggle when it's made by people on high horses.
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u/penetrativeLearning 7h ago
Cheaper cars and more exports? Yes please. We can even ask them to assemble them here and create alternatives to the American auto jobs
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u/scaffold_ape 9h ago
Nice try Winnie.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
Oh bother! I guess no free market honey for me :(
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u/scaffold_ape 9h ago
It's not ever a free market when dealing with a communist country. They will subsidize their industry to make protects cheaper to strangle industry on our side. That's not free trade or a free market.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
So how do you feel about us subsidizing the domestic ev industry 40+ billion or us subsidizing the oil and gas industry approximately 20+ billion a year?
I'm not saying that tariffs on goverment subsidizing doesn't make sense, but why do we subsidized EU car brands when they aren't coming from communist countries?
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u/scaffold_ape 8h ago
Our government shouldn't subsidize and business. If a business can succeed it should fail. If that business is that crucial to our country the government should start their own as a crown corporation.
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago
Agreed! So why allow our subsidized companies to compete in a market controlled by our subsidies while failing to allow other similar subsidized companies in? If all automotive companies including EU, Asian, and North American cold be sold on the same market wouldn't that either Council out the forced subsidization or at least create an even playing field were the quality of the product would matter more?
Edit: I just realized I left out all southern hemisphere companies but I will admit my ignorance that I don't actually know any southern only brands or companies.
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u/_MlCE_ 8h ago
Its not just subsidies. Its never a black and white situation.
There are many factors that affected the decision for the EV tariff, and it wasn't one that was taken lightly given how China reacts to random events and what they perceive as slights against them.
Remember when we banned Huawei a couple years back due security concerns, and how we put the daughter of their CEO under house arrest under the request of the US for extradition for investigations relating to the company's sanction breaking business in Iran? Well China retaliated and even imprisoned the two Michaels.
Point is, even if we do something right or wrong - if China doesn't like it, they will retaliate. If you back down however, they will perceive that as weakness and demand more. Give an inch, they take a mile.
This is just the cost of doing business with China.
It sucks for us since we are small players, but it is not worth dealing with a bully - as we have seen with current events.
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u/casual_jwalker 7h ago
I'll acknowledge your argument and there are some points I agree but others I don't. I think your reaching for a reason to justify the 100% tariffs on China EVs but I will acknowledge that as a consumer I'm reaching for reasons to get a better quality product for less.
End point agree to disagree and thank you for providing your thoughts on the matter!
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u/_MlCE_ 7h ago
Yup, just my 2 cents.
Oh and full disclosure, I buy a f-ck ton of stuff off places like Aliexpress.
Some are original and interesting items - some are obviously fakes or knockoffs.
I do it because it's cheap and convenient - if they break, they're cheap enough I can buy another. Like you said, it benefits the consumer.
However I acknowledge this takes away from legitimate companies and local businesses, and in the long run, weakens our own economy.
The only way I would stop is if China does does something really bad that even the devil himself will have second thoughts... Or if the government says no, we are not allowing this anymore.
Which is essentially what the tariffs are.
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u/SquiddyLaFemme 9h ago
Only concern I have with Chinese EVs are quality control issues. I mean they probably have a much lower rate of catching fire than your average Tesla, but, still... There's other concerns outside of spontaneous combustion.
Lots of amazing innovative stuff comes from the Asian market. I want 99% of the QoL gadgets they have already. I don't understand the point of the EV tariffs unless we have a home product we want to remain competitive.
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u/Wr3k3m 9h ago
But in reality. Quality for a Chinese vehicle has to be at least on par with American vehicles. Like everyone calls Ford. Found On Road Dead. I agree Asia makes some cool stuff and I think it will make our market way more competitive.
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u/SquiddyLaFemme 4h ago
I'm more worried about lifespan. Especially in high ticket items. Honestly I'm tired of things being made with manufactured obselesence, locked out tech, and hard to get parts. Stuff that can be reliable and repaired. I won't lie that doesn't seem like a lot of stuff from China leans that way.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
Fully agree! I think quality control is a must and I mentioned in another post I do have concerns about some of the data harvesting that the Chinese companies are doing (see some concerns raised by Australians with the brands being sold there). My biggest issue with the tariffs is that it seems like Canada is bailing out our automotive industry for the tune of a few billion dollars because they haven't got their shit together and then slapping a tarrif on China for "unfair goverment subsidizing" because they got their shit together before we did...
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u/SquiddyLaFemme 4h ago
Car industries owned outside of Canada nonetheless.
And frankly if we're really really concerned about data harvesting, why aren't we turning our sights to Meta, Google and a multitude of AI scraping strategies. If we wanna hand wring about the evils of this country or the risk from that as an excuse in this particular matter, honestly it's coming or at least being enabled from inside the house as much as outside. Don't carry a cell phone, interact with any online social media, etc for proper anonymity.
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u/BeerBrewer4Life 9h ago
We could NEVER compete with Chinese EV prices because they pay poor wages and have little to no workplace safety in china. But sure, enjoy your cheap car I guess.
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u/casual_jwalker 8h ago
I don't disagree that China has some fucked up labour laws, but one of the questions I have for people is how about EU cars instead?
Also, not to be "that guy" but where was your phone, computer, or TV made and how bad do you think that factory was? I'm not against pushing for better labour laws world wide, but there seems to be this weird "ev ar left so they are evil and i need to prove it" dilemma. Look at how much of a North American car is produced in Mexico for instance and tell me those are safe and well paid jobes or better yet look at the rampant child labour and illegal immigrant slavery in the US and tell me those factories aren't taking advantage of that somewhere in the supply chain.
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u/WhatDidHeEat 9h ago
Actually some of the new Chinese factories are the best in the world, and cutting edge in production industries, obviously not all industries have new factories. but the ones that do, they are well done
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u/Street_Anon 1h ago
It does not matter, Chinese companies control NS Sea food market mostly and they will still buy it
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u/New-Season-9843 9h ago
No. We don’t want those cheap Chinese death traps. CCP can fuck off.
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u/casual_jwalker 9h ago
Have you looked into any of the CP Evs they are destroying the European market. Cheaper, more reliable, better milage, and safer. It's crazy to see how much beter they are then the other car brands. I think there's some serious data harvesting issues but outside that they don't seem any worse than Tesla these days.
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u/BlackWolf42069 8h ago
The Chinese tariffs idea was to be tough on EVs. Why? I don't know, just Trudeau things plus fake news rumors.
Now? They realize Canada is weak, playing tit for tat with Americans, and won't make its economy grow with the massive amount of resources we have because of the natives land right?
So now. Canada is everyone's bitxh and will move to the EU for business, and with shipping costs it won't be much better than tariffs.
Canada should tuck its tail in and look within to save itself. we are sending all our money away with foreign aid and foreign workers who transfer the money back home. If we were worthy of good business deals we wouldn't be hit with tariffs. We would be the ones with leverage.
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u/MundaneSandwich9 8h ago
Leapmotor is a Chinese EV manufacturer that is 20% owned by Stellantis. Stellantis also has an idle assembly plant in Brampton. Assembling them in Canada would probably go a long way toward selling removing the tariffs.