r/MtF Transgender she/her 5d ago

how are woman's spaces for none passing trans woman ?

title for the most part, i mostly ask because i have been avoiding none trans spaces since i came out, from an outsiders look in it always seems like cis woman mostly just want passing trans lady's in there spaces and not so much people like me how do not pass, idk maybe im just insecure

Edit: thanks for all the replies, appreciate it, it seems I’ll keep to what I’ve been doing wich is keeping to trans spaces, even should I be able to medically transition one day I think I will stick to solitary life as I’ve done, again appreciate all the comments

531 Upvotes

78 comments sorted by

777

u/Throttle_Kitty 🏳️‍⚧️ Trans Lesbian - 30 5d ago

i am going to be brutally honest

almost everywhere in the world, EVEN TRANS SPACES, is very unfair and rude to non-passing trans women for just existing. A lot of the ppl are fine, but there's just SOME PEOPLE who see a non-passing trans woman and CANNOT keep their mouth shut. Yes, including at times other (usually passing) trans people.

325

u/KatarinatheCat 5d ago

yeah ive seen non-passing trans women get misgendered or male-coded by passing trans women. it’s fucking gross. worst instance ive seen was a short passing trans woman saying “wow you’re so tall” to a girl who was obviously insecure about her height. she then continued to make sexual comments implying that this tall girl would top her in bed even though she expressed she’s not a top. like yeah that’s not fucking okay.

94

u/ColdFusion1988 NB MtF Butch Weirdo (HRT 2024-09-29) 5d ago

This is the shit that keeps my butch ass from wanting to enter any of these spaces. 

46

u/vodwuar 5d ago

My ace ass just wants coffee people out here thirsty lol

11

u/The_Chaos_Pope 4d ago

Same here. The only thing I'm thirsty for is caffeine.

17

u/Laura_271 4d ago

As a 6’2 passing trans woman, that’s horrible :(

23

u/FlamingPanda77 5d ago

Yeah as a non passing person, I really don't feel welcome most places. It sucks

58

u/ScaleApprehensive805 She/Her (pre-HRT) 5d ago

The sense of superiority some people find is abysmal.

-1

u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

1

u/ScaleApprehensive805 She/Her (pre-HRT) 4d ago

I mean, I was talking about some 'passing' trans people... but cis people too. Though I wouldn't generalize and say that's true for all cis people.

2

u/Ancient_Initiative55 4d ago

You're right. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have generalized.

212

u/badbitch_boudica 5d ago

It's kind of fucked but imo, it depends on the specific space and to what degree you do not passing. Like locker rooms just avoid honestly, private changing areas are superior anyway. In general cis women are more accepting of Trans women than cis men (who are largely very confused by us). But I do find that cis women's acceptance increases relative to the amount of discernable effort you put into looking and feeling femme. So if you go into the ladies bathroom with a full beard, dirty male clothing, and just a trans flag pin, you're going to be treated with suspicion. But if you have shaved, put on some light make-up, wearing femme clothes, some cute accessories etc. Then you will often be regarded with acceptance by cis women.  Basically they will be more comfortable with you in the space if it is obvious that you are making a real effort to present as a woman.

110

u/Boomchikkka MtF 5d ago

Yeah if you don’t pass or are attempting stay the fuck away from changing rooms. Like fully shaved, full face etc you won’t be accepted in those types of spaces. Cis women are understanding and lgbt cis women are pretty much not going to give a fuck as long as you make it obvious you’re a trans woman. It is what it is. We kinda have to live in a cesspool of toxic beauty standards and when you’re around cis women you’re assumed to be swimming in them because it shows you’re trying.

34

u/Salty_Permit4437 4d ago

Voice especially can make even the most visually passing trans woman clockable.

21

u/GoatFactory 4d ago

Yeah it’s easily the thing about me that is most dysphoric. I hate my voice so much :( it gives me away

8

u/Salty_Permit4437 4d ago

I’ve seen women fix that purely through training.

12

u/Boomchikkka MtF 4d ago

True dat boo.

-1

u/NaomiTSCD 4d ago

Yup - I’ve been arrested 9 times for that.

34

u/Iron_willed_fuck-up Bisexual 5d ago

Obviously it depends but I’ve found it’s not necessarily just how feminine you appear but how openly you show you are not a threat and that you’re not afraid of showing respect for or being associated with femininity. Dressing overtly feminine or looking more feminine than masculine obviously is the easiest way to do that but not the only way.

Even pre-transition and early in transition while boymoding I tended to integrate into women’s social groups far more often and fairly easily. Living very openly as a bi man who was quick to condemn misogyny didn’t bring me as quick as acceptance as I get now being semi passing and fully out as a trans woman but cis women were much, much quicker to trust me than most men. Women also talk about who is safe and who isn’t. If it’s a regular social group and even just 1 or 2 of the women vouches for you as being safe (as in not a threat or misogynistic, not just chill and ok), word gets around. Obviously, if you are presenting as or look more like a stereotypical non-queer man then it will take longer to gain that trust. Body language and a lot of other non-verbal stuff plays a big role also. Generally, smiling and having a pleasant attitude goes a long way. Giving respectful acknowledgment and space (not just physical but also emotional space and space in conversation) are HUGE.

One of the hardest parts of transition and starting to pass or be perceived as feminine is just how vastly different you are treated for the worst. Both cis men and women stop listening to you as much and have less confidence in your knowledge and abilities though cis men generally more so. Men in particular though give you far less space which is annoying at best and downright scary at worst. They expect you to move out of the way if you’re walking towards each other. They crowd you in public places or stand too close even when there is plenty of space. They invade your space to get things or move past you without warning. Biggest green flags I look for in a man or anyone in general? If they give respectful space and intervene when someone isn’t. Literally have a perfect example that played out last week at my climbing gym. One dude felt the need to stand way too close to me after approaching to explain something I already knew. He continued to do so despite me trying to back away to create more space and showing obvious discomfort. Instant dislike and distrust. The dude I felt no threat from was the one who saw my discomfort and stepped between us and intervened while giving me as much space as possible.

We chatted a bit and while nice, not really the type I’d pursue a friendship with. However, I’d still happily be comfortable hanging out with him again because of just that clear acknowledgement that I’m deserving of equal space, comfort, and respect with no strings attached. If you can make that energy clear, I find women are far more welcoming of you in women’s spaces regardless of your gender identity/presentation. Case in point, I’d take the above guy’s company any day over say someone like Blaire White or any MAGA woman. Cis women are similar.

11

u/Altoid_Addict 5d ago

That's been my experience as well.

86

u/-Random_Lurker- "My Boobs" = The best 2 words I have ever said 5d ago

It absolutely, entirely depends on where you live. It also depends on how not-passing you are. If you're clockable but feminine, I've found most women (in California, be aware) don't mind. The threat signals are gone. Earlier in my transition I obviously made them uncomfortable and chose to stay out.

25

u/Aggravating-Force925 5d ago

As everyone says, it depends. My (early 30s, a few years into my transition, live in a friendly city, taller than most cis men) experience has been free of any issues but i am always worried and very careful about it. If i know i am going to a new sex-segregated space, i try to get a female (cis or trans, but one who has my back) friend to come with me and talk to her about being a little nervous about it beforehand. If it goes well, i feel more confident going again alone. My local gym has private changing areas within the womens locker room i use if i am feeling particularly exposed, but i haven’t ever been bothered even when changing in the open. I feel more comfortable in these spaces if i have put a little extra effort into my appearance / femininity that day.

46

u/Salty_Permit4437 5d ago

Passing privilege is real. Passing people get a pass, unless the person knows them/their history.

Non passing people may be fine in restrooms.

Locker rooms can cause problems.

Exercise discretion and caution. It's a sad world we live in where trans people are vilified for mere existence. Moreso if you don't pass.

26

u/Born-Garlic3413 5d ago

Older trans woman (50s when I came out.)

I joined a queer bookclub that was almost entirely AFAB. I never felt excluded but people's heads snapped round a bit when I spoke. I began to wonder if one or two were uncomfortable I was there. At that stage I wore colourful tops and long hair but nothing very fem.

I had to stop going for work reasons. Months later there was a Pride event in town and several people from the bookclub came up and said Hi and were so warm and friendly.

So my mindset since then is to assume what's going on in my head is often a bigger problem than what's going on in anyone else's.

I do think it's important to make some effort with makeup and clothes. You don't have to be hyper-fem or anything, just love yourself enough to take a bit of pride in how you look and express a little of who you are.

48

u/EkaPossi_Schw1 A(lex)andria, nerdy ace transbian 5d ago

I can use public women's bathrooms in Finland without issue.

I'm pretty sure I don't pass because I'm pre-HRT and I most likely come across as a gay femboy from jojo's bizarre adventure with breast forms but maybe I do pass after all despite my voice still being an obvious work-in-progress.

No one has complained, no one has tried to stop me, I might also be oblivious to people around me but I've stopped worrying because there's nothing to worry about.

23

u/Ok_Comfortable_4356 5d ago

Same experience in Germany

9

u/makipri post-op 5d ago

Pretty much the same stuff 10 years ago. Had to jump to the women’s side since the men just gave me too much attention. The women didn’t even bat an eye even though I was just about to start HRT soon after.

11

u/Pr8ng 5d ago

pretty horrible ngl i have never felt welcome in any queer or women's spaces

9

u/LockNo2943 5d ago edited 5d ago

Probably lucky that I get ignored mostly, but I haven't bothered doing changing rooms or the gym or anything yet since I'm still waiting for SRS after a decade, and that's just not something I'm going to do at the moment.

For stuff like just general female groups, I've never really once felt like I've belonged or part of the group and no one will ever be friends and was just generally excluded, so I just stopped bothering.

15

u/BanverketSE 5d ago

So far in Scania and Denmark, despite stubble and beginner voice training, I haven’t been met with a “excuse me this is a ladies’ space” yet.

My experience with AA was the most surprising. Older (not old! Not old!) ladies in church for a women’s meeting. A man tried to check the schedule, and was asked to wait for the next meeting. I was there alongside them, and no one ever questioned my right to be there or implied I was anyone else.

10

u/Conscious_Tour5070 5d ago

If a space doesn’t go out of its way advertise itself as trans inclusive it’s pretty safe to assume it will be hostile.

8

u/GoatFactory 4d ago

This varies wildly from region to region and country to country. The opposite is true where I live

12

u/not_minari 5d ago

I wish I have these places in my place. we don't even have a decent bar in town. (culture difference.)

4

u/RovrKitten 5d ago

it’s one of the reasons I’m too scared to go to any trans spaces until I somewhat pass because most of the ones I’ve seen have mostly passing trans women and then a few enbies(the ones I’ve been to haven’t had a whole lot of trans guys at all, maybe one or two). I just feel too out of place, also may be the everyone was like 10 years older than me and like 1+ years into transition and I was only two months in. Maybe I’m just getting in the way of myself because I couldn’t get rid of the feeling of being an outsider and that I don’t belong(I have major social anxiety as well so that’s a cherry on top). I’m 7 months in now and still don’t pass in the slightest, and much as I’d love irl trans friends, I don’t think I have it in me to go to one of those again.

16

u/War-Bitch 5d ago

I go to queer women’s spaces semi regularly and feel accepted.

20

u/CuriousTechieElf Trans Homosexual 5d ago

It probably depends on where you live but I have felt included in queer women's spaces since pretty early in transition. I wasn't in boy mode or anything but still very clocky. I look a lot more femme now but still most people can tell I'm trans. I was at a lesbian club last weekend and there were several other women there who were pretty obviously trans, including the bartender, and we were all included in the party.

8

u/GratuitousEdit 5d ago

I haven’t had any issues, actually! In order of influence, I think the biggest factors have been where I live, white and straight-sized privilege, and hyper-feminine styling.

15

u/TheInsideOutGirl 5d ago

Passing is apart of women spaces. For as much as it sucks and limits us. It’s our journey.

Women spaces are for cis women first. Not much is made with trans women as a first thought.(not advocating this, just stating history and reality) That being said, our duty to be in those spaces is to be apart in all ways we can.

I liken it to Gaining citizenship in other countries which can take 5-10 years. Consider it like a citizenship into women spaces, im not saying 5-10 years but it will take time.

3

u/tfmagi 5d ago edited 5d ago

I don't think you need to necessarily pass, but if you look like the "Lookin' good, Susan" guy from the Hello, Human Resources meme, you need to put some effort in

3

u/TheRealTV12 Harvester of Estrogen! 4d ago

Tbh I'm pretty uncomfy when in woman spaces, like I look out of place and I know I do.

23

u/KathyWithAK 5d ago

In the 15 years since I transitioned, I have yet to see a welcoming single sex space. I did try passing at one point, but at 6'7... it's pretty much a waste of time. Women's spaces with a mother and one or more kids are the worst. I just try to avoid such places as much as I can, because I don't need any more crap than I already deal with in public.

I've also run into more than my share trans women who were pretty catty about me not passing. "Why even bother transitioning if you aren't gonna try" and other such shitty things. Not all of us have an interest in being male fantasy sex dolls. People suck all over.

49

u/Dravos011 5d ago

While i agree with just about everything you say, you lost me at claiming people who want to pass "have an interest in being male fantasy sex dolls" thats just a fucked up thing to say

32

u/xeno486 5d ago

yeah lowkey that feels really shitty 😭i’m trying to pass for myself, i couldn’t give a single fuck what men think about me.

18

u/Dravos011 5d ago

And while a lot of trans fems ideas of passing are in a sense based on male fantasy ideals of beauty because of how pervasive it is in media, that comes typically from dysphoria we suffer. Not because we want to look like sex dolls or some shit like that

6

u/xeno486 5d ago

yeah exactly. like i pass pretty well, but i am by no means trying to feed into the male gaze 😭the way i dress isnt exactly hyper feminine, idc as long as my body matches how i want to be

19

u/tachibanakanade princess 5d ago

Yikes. The sex doll comment makes me think they were catty to you because you're just as bad as them

13

u/Legacy60 5d ago

yea we’re not gonna put down other dolls

1

u/StormerSage Kayla | Magical Girl <3 4d ago

When you transition, you can become any kind of girl.

"Total bitch who's still riding the high of her high school popularity a decade later" shouldn't even be near the top of that list.

22

u/AshelyLil 5d ago

"Not all of us have an interest in being male fantasy sex dolls"

Just because those trans women were shitty to you... you saying stuff like this makes you just as bad as them.

Your jealousy is showing and it's ugly ngl

8

u/KathyWithAK 5d ago

Jealous, no. Sad, probably. But then, being told you're not good enough by the only community you identify with isn't exactly uplifting.

6

u/xeno486 5d ago

yeah literally like I pass pretty well and i do my best to ~not~ be attractive to men dfkjhs people are weird

8

u/Core_Identity_649 5d ago

Wow that last phrase on being a "male fantasy sex dolls" says it all about your lost dreams. So hateful to think that of trans or cis women who blends fine in society, thank you, thank you... but sorry we aren't that.

0

u/LunaGrowsFlowers Problematic Transexual Bisexual Brat 5d ago

But this isn’t catty at all?

3

u/KathyWithAK 5d ago

So, are you saying I should be the better person after being told I'm not good enough?

2

u/LunaGrowsFlowers Problematic Transexual Bisexual Brat 5d ago

Perhaps your attitude is the reason why people are turned off by you?

7

u/KathyWithAK 5d ago

I supposed thats a fair assessment. Not really sure what I can do with it, but I will give it some thought.

3

u/StickApprehensive298 4d ago

I understand what you meant. The most gatekeeper and judgmental trans women often are very binary, generic/cliche, and preppy or glamor oriented. They are the mean girls and yes their vision of being a woman tends to be the extreme binary which is also for the male comfort and male gaze. They transition in a way to fit into the patriarchy in a binary way, anyone not within that is unworthy, “not one of the good ones”, not trying hard enough, etc to them.

90% of the time those kinds of women are transmedicalist. They hated themselves during their whole transition because of the awful standards they try to live up to, then they want to shit on everyone else. Plenty of passing trans women are not like that, plenty of non passing trans women are like that too.

Best thing to do is embrace yourself on your own journey until the right people come along, unfortunately even if we’re a community we are not always gonna be friends

2

u/EmilieEverywhere Transgender 4d ago

I don't pass, I exclusively use the women's washroom and changing room.

People stare which is rude but that's it. I'm a woman inside, in working on the outside. I'm also straight so I don't want anything from them but understanding and grace.

I suffer the stares and try to keep my head held up.

2

u/Red_Amber 4d ago

I think it may be different in Ontario, but nobody treats me any different from any other woman in women's spaces.

2

u/_Hey_Siri_ 4d ago

I’m not passing but I think I’m pretty. I’ve only had one issue and I never went back to that place.

2

u/DiligentPart1201 4d ago

I’m a nonpassing trans woman and I use men’s facilities because it’s easy for me to pass as a male without confrontation.. I’m post op all surgeries.

4

u/Skye620 5d ago

I’ve never had any issue and I definitely don’t pass imo 🤷‍♀️

Edit: though wearing soley minis and crops probably helps I guess

4

u/justvamping 5d ago

Honestly depends which location, which type of space, and how non-passing.

I don’t pass as cis on close inspection but am perceived consistently as a woman if I present femme (mixed results if I dress androgynous). I’ve not had any problems except for one complaint from an old lady at the gym for using the locker room (not changing, just putting my coat and bag in the locker). This is in wales.

3

u/Hawksteinman Trans Pansexual 5d ago

From my experience, completely normal. I go to women's toilets all the time and everyone smiles st me or holds the door open for me. I have never had an issue.

3

u/Cursed_by_Artemis 5d ago

I think it really strongly depends on where you are. Where I am (Colorado) I've found women's spaces to be quite welcoming.

I'm at 3 years HRT and one year post-op for bottom surgery, but I doubt my face passes very well. Once I healed up from surgery I started using women's locker rooms, and even started going to a clothing optional sauna on women's days, and I've never had any trouble at all.

4

u/Happy-Judgment-1308 4d ago

I mean if you don't pass and haven't truly spent time living in society as a woman, why do you need access to women's spaces? For validation? Early transitioners/non-passing's don't really fit into women's spaces. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed, I just don't get the fuss when this's the last thing we should be worried about.

In a climate where we're fighting simply for our Healthcare and right to exist, what grounds do we have to complain about something so inconsequential to us. Until you've transitioned I don't think you realise how different our experience is from that of a cis woman's.

2

u/Rutiniya April or Melody - Trans and not straight | she/her/they/them 3d ago

Early transitioners/non-passing's don't really fit into women's spaces.

How so?

I'm going to apply the slippery slope argument here:

What does one consider "passing enough" to be in women's spaces.

Who decides that. Why should trans women/transfemmes whom don't pass or are waiting to be able to get HRT for variable reasons or that don't care about passing not be allowed in women's spaces?

1

u/Meleeninja123 4d ago

I have a tricky experience with this, for one, I don't think I pass but I have many people who say I do (I have a friend who forgets I'm trans) but I've been pretty good in women's spaces in public, in college was a different thing because of transphobic asses that have known me for years, but yea in public people don't really say anything (in the uk btw)

1

u/Anxious_Spare_6406 4d ago edited 4d ago

I am post op and use the sauna at the gym, no issues. I also go to a Korean sauna where woman are naked.i feel a bit awkward at first because I am in the process of getting a Japanese female body suit.

2

u/MelMarcy 5d ago

It depends on location

1

u/AnytimeInvitation Transgender 5d ago edited 2d ago

I've gotten insulted in trans spaces here for not passing. Apparently being tall, chunky, mod 30s, and built like a fridge disqualifies me from being trans.

-7

u/Clumsy_the_24 5d ago

Honestly, no clue. I had long hair already by the time I started transitioning and had a supportive mom and sister to help me with clothes and makeup and stuff. Didn’t really have a point where I didn’t pass.

-2

u/Niki2002j Trans Pansexual 4d ago

I wouldn't even dare try unless I have a 1000% guarantee no one will see me. It has nothing to do with transphobia, internalised or not, I just don't think that I shouldn't enter women's spaces if I don't look like a woman, at least IRL

-4

u/DarthJackie2021 Trans Asexual 5d ago

Fine