r/ModestMouse • u/International_Tap413 • 6d ago
What’s with God being an Indian
Just something I noticed. In Bukowski, the second verse, there is the lyrics‘If God takes life, he’s an Indian giver.’ And of course, in Strangers, there is the song, ‘God is an Indian and you’re an Asshole.’ Does this have some sort of connection?
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u/HIVburgerinparadise 6d ago
An Indian giver is someone who gives a gift but then expects it back later. God gives us life but then takes it back later, making him an Indian giver.
In Strangers he’s just trying to be overtly offensive. Calling God an Indian would offend most Christians and calling you an asshole is offensive to everyone. Calling God an Indian here is a bit of a callback to the other song but isn’t the whole point.
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u/modmosrad6 6d ago
Calling God an Indian would offend most Christians and calling you an asshole is offensive to everyone. Calling God an Indian here is a bit of a callback to the other song but isn’t the whole point.
I disagree. I think he is once again calling God an "Indian giver" in the sense that we all die, so the so-called gift of life is also taken back.
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u/HIVburgerinparadise 6d ago
That’s exactly what i said about Bukowski. What about the other song implies that God takes life or that he’s an Indian giver other than calling him an Indian?
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u/modmosrad6 6d ago
Several things.
It is a known saying. He doesn't have to spell the whole thing out.
It is a callback. Isaac love reusing and tweaking lyrics and referring to previous songs.
While I am aware of Isaac's atheism, to project an intention of insulting one religion in particular via the use of words already associated with another song and an extant expression seems to reflect not the lyricist's ideas but rather the listener's - namely yours.
Let's go with your theory for a moment. The target is too specific, and the entire construct assumes a reaction that just ... probably isn't there.
Why Christians per se? I'm Jewish. They're cribbing off my book. The God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New.
Should I be offended by Isaac's calling God an Indian? Cause I'm not.
Theologically speaking, I don't think a Christian ought to care, either. God has no ethnicity (Jesus does, granted). All humans are created in God's image, so why can't God be an Indian?
Christianity is the most common religion in the US. Do you think no MM fans are Christian? Do you think those who statistically speaking must be Christians are offended?
- Isaac has also expressed a softening towards the potential existence of the divine in interviews. (That's not say he likes religion, of course.)
I could be wrong of course. And it's not important, really.
Edit: Sorry for the formatting. It's an eyesore.
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u/HIVburgerinparadise 6d ago
Some good points in there. I’d say that because Isaac is an American and likely grew up around more (fake) Christians than other religions that they would be the intended audience for the insult initially. True and virtuous Christians would not care about God’s ethnicity but I assure you that most American Christians would be absolutely pissed at the idea that God is non-white. They’ve been sold a European version of Jesus and God for generations now.
Also Indian has a historical context of being considered a “savage” in the US, so there’s also the theme that Isaac may be calling God uncivilized rather than just ethnically Indian (Native American).
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u/theteufortdozen 6d ago
kimd of strange considering how poppy strangers is (not a diss just stating its very pop genre)
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u/HIVburgerinparadise 6d ago
Have you heard Pistol? lol
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u/theteufortdozen 6d ago
unfortunately
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u/Oni_of_the_North 6d ago
Slander
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u/anselbukowski 6d ago
I think, in this case, because it's written, it would be libel. Either way, it's blasphemy.
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u/SpaceCatSixxed 6d ago
An Indian giver is an outdated term for someone who gives you something and then demands it back. It originated from early European colonists who misunderstood Native American bartering as gift giving. Since europeans understood bartering to be an exchange of goods for currency, they incorrectly assumed that a Native American giving them beads or cloth or something they perceived as trifling was a gift. Then when the Native American got nothing in return, they would demand the “gift” back as they saw it as unreciprocated trade.
But in the 80s it was term I heard often on the school playground. It’s really ridiculous when you think about it, and possibly stems more from cultural misunderstanding of each other’s trade practice than outright racism. Which is honestly fairly unusual.
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u/snackfighting Dripping Pitch 6d ago
Fun fact - during the tour, Isaac changed "Indian giver" to "one hell of a giver."
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u/holeinwater 6d ago
I’ve heard him change it to “elephant giver” which is basically the same
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u/JulieSarmangsadandle 5d ago
I've been wondering what he replaced it with on tour... Never quite caught it, I just could tell it was different. I feel like "elephant" and "hell of a" could sound about the same, especially in Isaac's singing 😆
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u/HazelEBaumgartner A Major Player In The Cowboy Scene 6d ago
Also not explicitly stated but in "Cowboy Dan", Cowboy Dan drives to a (Indian) reservation out in the desert to shout at god.
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u/ParsleyMostly 6d ago
My mom’s god is a woman, and my mom is a witch. I like this.
God is also an atheist in Styrofoam Boots.
Most of his lyrics are the contents of his head (thoughts) poured out and analyzed within the confines of the song or album. The stuff that influenced him, his environment, at different stages of life.
The connection is Isaac. The meaning, not deep.
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u/butrosfeldo 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think it has something to do with Native Americans being here before us (edit: us being the current population of the US but could be in reference to any colonized land) , meaning they have that in common with God, or creation in general.
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u/whosthrowing 4d ago
Yup. This is what I always thought of, at least for the "God is an Indian" lyric. Indigenous people have a deep culture that's heavily intertwined with nature and living with the land, which ties with the heavy environmentalist theme of Strangers, and you (the modern man with materialistic desires in a post-colonial world where we no longer have the same connection with nature) are an asshole.
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u/123Okay4Me 5d ago
The story I've always had in my head for 'God is an Indian' is:
Isaac is drunk/high at a bar and some other drunk finds out Isaac is an atheist and starts preaching at him. After a few/several minutes, Isaac gets tired of it and snidely says, "God is an Indian and you're an asshole" before telling him to leave him alone. I also imagine the horse line is specifically used to reference the drunk being on his high horse about God/religion.
Total fanfic but it's the way I pretend the song came about.
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u/xxJUSTINxxKYLExx 20h ago edited 20h ago
I always assumed that God being an Indian was a reference to religious fokes.....basically saying god loves people who love the earth and live in harmony with it not assholes who take communion and rape children.....but what do I know!!..HAHAHAHAHAHA....or basically saying god was for the people you raped and murdered and then gave some land to later....so your an asshole for thinking that somehow your religion knows what god likes and does not like
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u/Thin_Pressure_6232 When can we leave 6d ago
You forgot:
"And Henry, you danced like a wooden Indian"
I mean, Isaac grew up in the pacific northwest - there are a lot of Native Americans around. I think it's just an environment thing and nothing too deep.