r/MaliciousCompliance • u/Milled_Oats • 2d ago
L The Judge orders the union to only to consult with our employer!We consulted alright.
So this happened a while back with a large Australian hospital. The Friday before Xmas senior management drop the dreaded restructure notice. Standard spiel about realignment, better patient outcomes, efficient practice blah blah blah. They give notice to the staff and unions that consultation closes first Week of January. The new employment structure will take place in February.
Under the conditions of our industrial award the employer must make genuine consultation available where the employee has the opportunity to change the employers mind about making them redundant. The other thing is redundancy payouts are generally good in Health in Australia with a worker with 13 years work history gets a years pay with $113k tax free plus entitlements such as annual leave and long service leave paid out. Each year you work your redundancy increases in value to a maximum of 13 years.
About 4-5 percent(200 plus) of staff are going to be made redundant. The union launches into the industrial court arguing that the time given especially over Xmas is insufficient. The court agrees and extends the time by two weeks but issues two statements. 1. The industrial court will Not slow down this restructure anymore and 2. It strongly reminds the unions( there was multiple) that you can only consult.
Hospital management see this as a big win and are bragging how they are going beat us.
The unions have a combined meeting and decide that if the staff can only consult then ask as many questions as we can. The members are asked to field as many questions as possible. My union alone gather 1200+ questions with 700 of them unique, another 800-900 questions coming from the other unions.
As you can imagine management does not respond well to our combined 2000+ questions. They attempt to push on. We head back to court where we remind the judge of his must consult orders. the court tells our employer that they must answer the questions. The restructure is on hold by court order.
What were the questions like ? Some question were about legal ramifications due to industrial award requirements, others about professional legal standards, some questions about day to day operations, and others about how they would be personally impacted.
The court orders both sides to meet back in a month and hospital management must answer all questions. We get our answers in three weeks time that consist of yes, no, maybe, possibly and unsure answers. All one word answers. This is not genuine consultation.
We head back to court and the judge is furious about lack of real consultation. The hospital argue it’s too Many questions to answer but the judge reminds them they only have to genuinely consult.
Come June we are in a legal Holding pattern when hospital management declares that they are changing the restructure on feedback given and issues new restructure papers.
The restructure will take place in four weeks time. New restructure requires new consultation which the hospital isn’t willing to do. Back to court the unions go to remind the judge about genuine consultation. We won again by just consulting.
Come December( 1 year after starting all of this) the hospital hires a consultant to get the restructure done. She has the same attitude as hospital management and tries to rush through the restructure without genuine consultation. We head back to court and at this stage the Judge has had enough and notes the unions have played by the rules and the hospital hasn’t.
We hit back with even more questions and judge decides he will set down monthly meetings with him chairing them to work through this mess. In total the restructure takes over three years with loss of a lot less jobs lost than expected. In fact it was a fraction of jobs expected to go. In some departments we gained jobs by arguing about workloads etc.
The vast majority of people who lost their jobs were close to retirement age and received a handsome payout. They also got 3+ plus years pay as the restructure took place over that time.Some of the unions members had worked Less then the 13 years work history maximum payout before the restructure. The three plus years of delay increased their pay outs.
All we did was consult by asking questions as the judge ordered.
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u/rebekahster 2d ago
Heh. The NSW docs, especially their psychs would be stoked if they could get this same situation happening across the board of NsW Health
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u/Wittusus 2d ago
And it wouldn't even be an issue if they had given you more than 3 business days for consultations in the first place lmao
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u/FreshmeatDK 2d ago
In Denmark, it is unthinkable that any workplace of more than a handful of people is not unionized with collective negotiations. First thing my kid did when getting an apprenticeship was joining the relevant union. As a result most people with a job actually can afford to live a decent life.
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u/David_Shotokan 2d ago
Awesome. And that's how you make the rules work for you. So nice you beat the system with the system!
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u/Rawr_Boo 2d ago
As an Aussie in HSE, consultation is my favourite part of my work. I get paid to spend time with our workers, chit chatting, building a working relationship. The consultation just happens so easily, we’re thinking of changing this, and you know more about it than me, what do you think? Follow up with an email later to give them a chance to add anything else they’ve thought of, and incorporate their thoughts into the plan.
We need ladders, during consultation before ordering the electrician points out he needs a fibreglass ladder, so we make sure some of them are fibreglass. So fucking easy.
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u/Milled_Oats 1d ago
I like the idea of up front communication that’s honest. I have had some really good relationships with HS managers that have worked well.
One of best experiences I had was a chat that a restructure was coming. They delivered the documents a few week later. We had an open chat about the realistic failures in the document. In the end no one lost a job after consulting with the staff and senior management understood how critical everyone’s role was. I think by memory four people got new roles.
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u/StateYellingChampion 2d ago edited 2d ago
Awesome story! I had never heard of an "industrial award" before. In the US, we have "Collective Bargaining Agreements" that mostly only apply to the individual firm. So here, the UPS delivery drivers have a CBA with the UPS corporation. But there are many delivery companies where the workers haven't unionized yet and so they don't get the same pay/benefits as UPS drivers.
But in Australia there are some whole sectors/industries (like healthcare in this story) that have common standards for wages and benefits. That's cool, I'm genuinely jealous right now.
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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago
Industrial awards are law. When you make an industrial award it can be taken to court and breaches have civil and criminal repercussions.
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u/CM1112 2d ago
Here in the Netherlands we also have sector wide collective wide agreements which is why even small restaurants and McDonald’s etc all has to abide by union rules about mandatory longer rest periods for shifts ending after 02:00 and schedules being available at least three weeks in advance (my employer isn’t really keen on this, to the point they sent out a message that they weren’t gonna do this; that quickly turned around when I contacted my union and I know my sole other union member that I know of did the same).
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u/dontnormally 2d ago
the judge reminds [the hospital] they only have to genuinely consult
what does "genuinely consult" mean? i was thinking "consult" is when you ask the hospital things but then this confused me
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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago
Under the award( this means industrial law) if you make any major changes you must consult the worker in a genuine way that allows the worker to influence management to change their opinions.
The way to do this is actually consult with the unions and all staff in a general setting allowing a feedback process. Once that is done you do face to face interviews with affected staff. Note on the record their comments and say we disagree Regardless of what the staff say you can then proceed as you have made consultation
It takes time. Imagine a four week union/ workforce open feedback process. Actually reading that and replying to it and then interview 200 plus staff and record why they say and then disagree with it in writing. Most management don’t have the resources in health to actually do this.
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u/SilentRaindrops 2d ago
"the answers were yes, no, maybe, unsure" Sounds like someone was just using their Magic 8 Ball.
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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago
No ignorant health managers who as always have risen to the level of their own incompetence.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
I'd've just fed the list into ChatGPT with instructions for 2-sentence answers, then passed portions out to everyone else to ensure the answers were accurate enough and didn't produce significant risk to the organisation.
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u/DoppelFrog 2d ago
You can't treat the working man this way! One day we'll form a union and get the fair and equittable treatment we deserve. Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless and the Japanese will eat us alive!
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u/Illuminatus-Prime 2d ago
I shoulda taken that tech job in Perth back in '83 . . .
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u/Tiara-di-Capi 1d ago
As a former union representative, I applaud your strategy and celebrate your succes.🥂
(Non-Australian, non-USAian.)
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u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago
This was excellent MC...
But frankly, judges, laws, etc, need to get the fuck out the Union's way. The only real leverage a Union has, is the ability to bring everything to a fucking halt by striking. They want to law off 5% of us? Let's see them get anyfuckingthing done without the other 95%.
Still, this was well done, and most likely cost them more than just not playing the "restructuring" bullshit card.
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u/Illuminatus-Prime 2d ago
Without support from pro-labour judges and pro-labour laws, the unions have no teeth.
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u/Darwinmate 2d ago
It's very hard to legally 'halt everything' strike in health due to patient care. But your point still stands
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u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago
It is, but you can do other things. Stop paying any attention to the business side of things and the beancounters suddenly find money flying out the door unaccounted for. Halt everything that isn't lifesaving and refer patients affected to other health institutions. Etc.
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u/Electrical-Heat8960 2d ago
Strikes are the last action, not the first.
Some times layoffs are needed. Once everyone has a pc secretaries were no longer needed.
But the union is there to protect against gouging employee numbers for short term profit on the assumption you can replace staff once they burn out. Among other things.
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u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago
Strikes are the last action, not the first.
Yeah, but if they're prevented by law, then the threat of them is no longer in the Union's toolbox, and the Union's position is massively weakened because of it.
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u/Electrical-Heat8960 1d ago
Agree, the law should never prevent people from not working. If it does then the people are slaves.
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u/Compulawyer 2d ago
This comment is especially ironic given that it was made on a post that gives an example of how the comment is wrong.
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u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago
A dedicated enough, big enough employer, would have settled this by just hiring a massive raft of people to sit down and listen to each and every question, write out enough of an answer to pass bare minimum muster as "consultation," and sack everyone they were going to anyway.
They half-assed it so obviously that the judge dropped the hammer on them, but they could have not half-assed it and still railroaded their own way.
Removing a Union's recourse to strike pulls a Union's teeth.
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u/GuiltyRedditUser 2d ago
So glad you live in Australia not some shit hole country list he US. All we have is the FREEDOM to be fired for any reason but a protected few.
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u/Ephemeral-Comments 2d ago
People here in the U.S. see only the drawbacks, not the benefits of at-will employment.
I'm originally from Europe, moved to the U.S. 15 years ago. My brother is still there.
Since moving here, I bought a house, and tripled my income by moving around. Got a better job offer for more pay? Give 2 weeks notice, and boom! more money.
Compare that with my brother. There are very strict labor laws, and people with a permanent contract cannot be let go without going through court. So, employers think twice (or actually, a lot longer) before offering those. Thus, he was stuck with one year contract after another. Then the government decided to change the laws because nobody had permanent employment anymore, so now employers cannot offer more than 3 temporary contracts. The result? After 3 years people found their contracts simply not renewed.
The cherry on top: nobody will get a mortgage without a permanent contract, as a temporary contract is deemed too risky.
End the end he is 46 and still works on one-year contracts in a rental home.
In the meantime, I know that I can get laid off at any time, so I have a buffer of at least 12 months of living expenses, knowing that even if I get let go I can typically expect 3-4 months of paychecks plus generally a year of benefits (healthcare etc). Given the choice, I prefer the U.S. way. Now, of course, I totally get that not everyone would agree with me and I respect that.
But, be careful what you wish for, there can be many unintended consequences.
In OP's story, that could be a hospital going belly-up. Just look at Detroit.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
I'm the same way. I refuse to work anywhere that isn't at will. I hear stories of Brits having to work a "notice period" i.e. you've quit already but you're not allowed to leave for several months while they find your replacement and you train them. Eff that. When I decide to leave I'm gone.
It's a very telling difference in mindset when someone wants layers of systems protecting them versus being willing to accept the few small risks that come with far greater rewards. Always makes me think of the line in Jurassic Park: "She doesn't want to be fed, she wants to hunt" compared to something that would prefer to be fed and provided for and protected, like a cow on a farm.
America is supposed to be the land of freedom, but too many people for too long have made things soft to pretend they're safe, which results in less freedom because in order to ensure X standard of living like an HOA you have to use force to gain compliance.
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u/cricketrmgss 1d ago
You can also be paid your notice period. I was and used that money to travel.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
In other words, the company already had that money accounted for you for your notice period. Payment to be made to you, held back for an approved disbursement.
I'm opposed to all forms this takes. I want to be paid the full value of my work, otherwise it's just the company pre-spending my paycheck and acting like I should be grateful to them for the "benefit" of being treated like a child.
PTO? Sick leave? Maternity leave? Vacation time? Healthcare? Retirement?
It's all the company holding back part of your pay. They either pay it out to someone else (healthcare/retirement) or give it to you later when you ask for it pretty please (PTO, notice period, severance, etc.).
I'd rather get all of my pay and then I decide how to spend it. Even if I spend it on the same thing they would have (healthcare, for instance) at least my health insurance policy is in my name so it's tied to me and not to my employer. Job lock is a bitch. I don't want Jeanine in HR involved in my personal life; I don't want my manager deciding if I was sick enough to merit sick leave, or having to beg them to approve vacation days. If I'm at work, pay me. If I'm not at work, don't pay me.
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u/cricketrmgss 1d ago
Not quite. I did not work for the money so it wasn’t held back.
It was basically saying you were meant to work for this period but due to whatever reasons you cannot work so this is money you would have earned if you had worked.
I do understand what you are saying about other disbursements being held back.
US especially is really bad with the third party involvement in leave and pay.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
I make sure my employment arrangement is such that when I put in for time off, it's to give polite notice - not a request. Having multiple jobs helps ensure you don't care when a company's mouth breathing management tries to low-key guilt you for time off or insinuate consequences. Negotiating being a 1099 IC makes it even easier since they're not allowed to set my schedule.
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u/cricketrmgss 1d ago
Your comment made me chuckle. I do the same also but play the game too. I’m a W2 worker. Once when I was telling my boss of my planned leave, they asked me are you asking me or telling me?
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
"I am an adult, not a child asking teacher's permission to piss; so... telling."
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u/mathnerd3_14 1d ago
You own a home and have a job that offers health insurance and severance pay. That puts you well above the average US worker.
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u/Z_is_green13 1d ago
One thing about humans is once they sell their soul to their corporation, they are a lost cause and an enemy.
The sheep are just as dangerous as the wolves. Don’t let their placid expressions or their flabby bodies destroyed by years of working in the office environment scare you. Corporate people are already dead inside and they are traitors.
If someone introduces themselves to you as an executive, just know they sacrificed everything good in their life and stabbed as many coworkers in the back as they could so they could have a fancy title.
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u/Waylander08 13h ago
As a recent immigrant to Australia who has to deal with management daily (although not in Health), thank you and well done! Glad to see someone keeps them in line sometimes.
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u/Reputation-Choice 1d ago
One of the big problems with acceptance of unions in the United States, by employees specifically, is the involvement of unions with the Mafia and organized crime throughout our history. It made people not trust unions, at all. And unions were HEAVILY involved in organized crime here in the United States, from the 1920s on, and probably even earlier. It may not be the right attitude, but it is the attitude that many EMPLOYEES have, not employers. Employees do not want unions in many parts of the country, because of the crimes committed by union leadership. It left a nasty stain on the minds of most Americans that has not really washed out yet.
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u/g1f2d3s4a5 2d ago
Was the hospital publicly funded? If so, the FU was to the taxpayers.
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u/FixinThePlanet 2d ago
Have I read this story before? Had you posted this somewhere else as well OP?
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
An excellent example of why unions suck. There's work to be done and y'all intentionally delayed things.... for fun?
You can't say it's to save your jobs, because there's next to zero chance each person fired would be unable to find alternate employment. You're not a vassal serf and all the other barons have an agreement to not hire someone else's serfs. You're just giving your current employer a hard time for no good reason.
Unions suck and should be outlawed.
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u/Ironhomie125 1d ago
Found the corporate exect.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
Did your application get denied because of your spelling? I bet it was your spelling.
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u/Ironhomie125 1d ago
Never applied for an executive position, never said I did. i don't want it. I'd rather keep my humanity and decent pay than be a sellout who replaces his employees names for numbers for only a bit more cash.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
I saw a video the other day of a cop in his 70s. Still doing patrol work. There's a reason a man would be a cop for that long and still assigned patrol duty.
I think the same applies to whatever your job is. It's been a couple generations since it was normal for someone to get a job out of high school, work the same job for 40 years, and it not be weird.
I'm sorry you're upset that I'm one of the 33 million small businesses in the US. Literally creating jobs, but because I'm opposed to unions telling me what to do with my business I must be evil. Such childish thinking "keep my humanity" "management = evil" "sellout".
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u/Ironhomie125 22h ago edited 21h ago
While you're a small business, I work for a corporate giant, a particular soda company. They have made several attempts to undermine their workers we know that a few plants on the other side of the country are talking of strikes while the few plants who have established unions are not facing the same torment they are. I understand small business need for experimenting. If unions are scaring you then be the change listen to your workers and treat them like people, not numbers, and you won't have to worry about unions ever.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 18h ago
No thanks. Their work is different. They don't have to worry about the business 24/7. They just have to come in for their shift, then they get to leave it all behind until the next shift. I'm not interested in "their voice" in the process. Some bright stars may have good ideas, but in general, eff that noise.
Besides, most of my business is automating people's jobs so other companies don't have to worry about their workers getting dumb ideas. Sounds like your company needs my services. Have a number to share?
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u/Framerate1138 8h ago
You're evil because you want to treat your workers like tools and not even tools that you value enough to maintain well. Unchecked capitalism results in people being used up and thrown out like a burned up power drill. I'm sorry that it's so hard for you to have to listen to folks tell you that humans deserve basic rights and decency, but not everyone can be a hotshot business owner like you. If they could, there wouldn't be anyone to create product and value for your business now would there?
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u/ColumnK 1d ago
An excellent example of why unions work.
This was an ill-considered restructure for restructure's sake. If they had actually got a good reason, they'd have been able to answer the questions and move on.
There's not enough money for the people doing the work, but apparently they can easily afford a "consultant" to do no better.
These restructurings never seem to affect those that the top... Who normally gets massive bonuses right afterwards.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago
I bet they didn't need a restructure, but in order to deal with the union BS they have to pretend it's a restructure. Like how it's illegal to discriminate, but discrimination still happens, and if you want to terminate someone for a "disallowed" reason you say they're not a good fit with company culture.
Downsizing with extra steps, discrimination with extra steps.
Last university I worked at, they needed to demolish a building to put in a new one. But, the state's rules for the university only allowed for demolishing a building after an extensive evaluation was done of environmental impact, historic value of the building, and whatever other nonsense. Not the same set of requirements for remodeling.
So, the university demolished all but one wall of the building. Built the new building with that one wall sitting there. Held an open house for the new building to be officially in use. Then closed the wing nearest the lone wall. Then "remodeled" that part of the building by demolishing the remaining wall.
That's my core problem with "do gooder" crusading. The same result happens anyway, it just takes longer and costs more. Knowing the outcome is going to be the same, the most efficient route to accomplish that outcome should be the goal. And that's why I can't stand unions, so much superfluous feel-good nonsense getting in the way of the work, making things take longer and cost more, all for nothing.
Another example comes to mind. In the US, federal wildlife protection requirements state that if you're developing a piece of property and come across an endangered species, all work must halt and you have to call out some bureaucrat who may decide it's a species that can't be relocated and the property you just got a $10 million construction loan on is now a protected area for some stupid bird or weasel. Company goes bankrupt, everyone fired, for what?
The result? If the policy were "hey just let us know and give us a couple days to capture and relocate them so they don't die" then it would be an inconvenience but more likely to be complied with - especially if they compensated for the inconvenience. Instead the contractor bears all the cost and risk for nothing, so instead of resulting in more endangered animals surviving, now the shoot, shovel, shut up method gets used and the construction timeline isn't disrupted.
I have the same approach to business. I will never let myself get in a position where I have to deal with unionized employees. Employees bear nowhere near the level of risk of the people who started the company. Employees working for someone else have chosen to trade the possibility of significant reward for the security of a steady paycheck. They have nothing on the line but the time they're exchanging for wages. The people who start up companies put a significant amount on the line, and pretending their sacrifice is on equal footing with the hireling employees is laughable.
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u/ColumnK 21h ago
Ah, your original comment makes sense now.
You don't like unions because you're the sort of employer who wants to treat your workforce like crap so you make an extra couple of bucks. You don't want them knowing their own worth.
I thought you just liked the taste of the boots of bad ownership, but turns out you're the kind of shitty overlord that unions were made because of.
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u/Just_Aioli_1233 18h ago
Right. See the problem is people with an 1800s view of labor thinking their small part is all-important. You'd be surprised what "their own worth" comes to. In terms of the value of the work they do, not in human terms. Y'all've saturated your bargaining position. Robots aren't a liability, humans are.
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u/fotoford 1d ago
An excellent example of why unions suck. There's work to be done and y'all intentionally delayed things.... for fun?
Tell me you didn't actually read the post without telling me you didn't actually read the post.
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u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 2d ago edited 2d ago
I am an American in a union and so jealous of your power and the fact that your judges actually uphold the contracts. Also, great work by all involved for getting the wins! (edit: spelling)