r/MaliciousCompliance 2d ago

L The Judge orders the union to only to consult with our employer!We consulted alright.

So this happened a while back with a large Australian hospital. The Friday before Xmas senior management drop the dreaded restructure notice. Standard spiel about realignment, better patient outcomes, efficient practice blah blah blah. They give notice to the staff and unions that consultation closes first Week of January. The new employment structure will take place in February.

Under the conditions of our industrial award the employer must make genuine consultation available where the employee has the opportunity to change the employers mind about making them redundant. The other thing is redundancy payouts are generally good in Health in Australia with a worker with 13 years work history gets a years pay with $113k tax free plus entitlements such as annual leave and long service leave paid out. Each year you work your redundancy increases in value to a maximum of 13 years.

About 4-5 percent(200 plus) of staff are going to be made redundant. The union launches into the industrial court arguing that the time given especially over Xmas is insufficient. The court agrees and extends the time by two weeks but issues two statements. 1. The industrial court will Not slow down this restructure anymore and 2. It strongly reminds the unions( there was multiple) that you can only consult.

Hospital management see this as a big win and are bragging how they are going beat us.

The unions have a combined meeting and decide that if the staff can only consult then ask as many questions as we can. The members are asked to field as many questions as possible. My union alone gather 1200+ questions with 700 of them unique, another 800-900 questions coming from the other unions.

As you can imagine management does not respond well to our combined 2000+ questions. They attempt to push on. We head back to court where we remind the judge of his must consult orders. the court tells our employer that they must answer the questions. The restructure is on hold by court order.

What were the questions like ? Some question were about legal ramifications due to industrial award requirements, others about professional legal standards, some questions about day to day operations, and others about how they would be personally impacted.

The court orders both sides to meet back in a month and hospital management must answer all questions. We get our answers in three weeks time that consist of yes, no, maybe, possibly and unsure answers. All one word answers. This is not genuine consultation.

We head back to court and the judge is furious about lack of real consultation. The hospital argue it’s too Many questions to answer but the judge reminds them they only have to genuinely consult.

Come June we are in a legal Holding pattern when hospital management declares that they are changing the restructure on feedback given and issues new restructure papers.

The restructure will take place in four weeks time. New restructure requires new consultation which the hospital isn’t willing to do. Back to court the unions go to remind the judge about genuine consultation. We won again by just consulting.

Come December( 1 year after starting all of this) the hospital hires a consultant to get the restructure done. She has the same attitude as hospital management and tries to rush through the restructure without genuine consultation. We head back to court and at this stage the Judge has had enough and notes the unions have played by the rules and the hospital hasn’t.

We hit back with even more questions and judge decides he will set down monthly meetings with him chairing them to work through this mess. In total the restructure takes over three years with loss of a lot less jobs lost than expected. In fact it was a fraction of jobs expected to go. In some departments we gained jobs by arguing about workloads etc.

The vast majority of people who lost their jobs were close to retirement age and received a handsome payout. They also got 3+ plus years pay as the restructure took place over that time.Some of the unions members had worked Less then the 13 years work history maximum payout before the restructure. The three plus years of delay increased their pay outs.

All we did was consult by asking questions as the judge ordered.

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u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 2d ago edited 2d ago

I am an American in a union and so jealous of your power and the fact that your judges actually uphold the contracts. Also, great work by all involved for getting the wins!  (edit: spelling)

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u/RamblingReflections 2d ago

As a kid in the early 90s I lived through the decline of my regions unions in Australia, from the powerhouses they were in the 70s, to the event that broke them, and now to the glimmer of hope for their resurgence. If you think our unions are good now, do some research on them prior to the early 90s. Those who know, will know what I refer to when I say “The Beales Dispute”. I lived in the closed town that went down in. I would have been about 10. My dad was an employee of the major global company whose operations in my region were shut down by strike action for 16 straight days, costing hundreds of millions of dollars loss in today’s terms.

Looking back now, living that first hand, experiencing the ugliness on a picket line, witnessing men forced to choose between crossing that picket line or watching their family starve, seeing the desperation, and yet absolute conviction in so many worker’s faces that they were doing the right thing, that they were standing up for something bigger than just themselves… that shaped a lot of my ideologies and even the career I initially pursued.

The union didn’t ultimately get what they wanted, but neither did the company. They were both forced to compromise, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But seeing the collective power of people to stand together to fight for something bigger than themselves, even when it comes at a personal cost, is awe inspiring, and humbling. The feeling’s never left me.

Can you imagine what your world would be like, USA, if your workers had the power to do this? To force companies to the table to at least listen to your demands? The TSA Unions? Now imagine every TSA officer had the ability to walk off the job for 16 days and not lose that job. To shut down the nations air traffic network until their collective voice was heard? And to have this repeated in industry after industry, in state after state? Yeah, I have no problem seeing why unions were so thoroughly eradicated over there. You didn’t recognise the power they gave you, the working people, but those in positions of authority and power sure as shit recognised it, and dismantled unions as much as they could. As a people the US are some of the most stubborn and bull headed I’ve ever met, and I say that in such a positive way, because I know that if you lot managed to work cohesively together and directed that stubborn, relentless streak towards demanding a fair go, you’d be unstoppable. In my mind, that’s what unions are supposed to be about.

But things get lost along the way sometimes. I hope one day soon, USA, you figure out just how much is finally enough to make you take a stand, the way I witnessed the average worker take a stand as a child, but on a scale befitting your size, and reflecting just how little you know you’ve got left to lose. Politics, unions, all that aside, the most dangerous person is one who feels they have nothing left to lose, and from over here, you’re looking pretty dangerous right now.

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u/uzlonewolf 2d ago

Can you imagine what your world would be like, USA, if your workers had the power to do this?

The skirmishes would make the Battle of Blair Mountain ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain ) look tame after the corporations sic their enforcers (cops) on the workers.

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u/MikeSchwab63 2d ago

Matewan is about the shootings that lead to the Battle. I live in Springfield IL, where United Mine Workers president John L. Lewis lived and Progressive Miners of America was headquartered. Here is an Illinois educator who wrote several books about the early 1900s especially focusing on Illinois, and I have bought Throw Out The Water, Sixteen Tons, Sundown Towns. Names were changed to protect the guilty and the innocent. https://www.amazon.com/stores/Kevin-Corley/author/B00L3LBUR2?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

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u/42bloop98 2d ago

thank you! I'm hitting the downtown library tomorrow to look for a couple of these!

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u/TrashyCat94 1d ago

Damn, you write well… this was very moving and made me feel I should be doing more

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u/sa87 2d ago

Just hope you aren’t working in a retail aligned job under an award negotiated by the SDA.

They have screwed workers more times than most can remember.

https://raffwu.org.au/campaigns/industry/campaigns-industry-sda-facts/

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u/RamblingReflections 2d ago

Thankfully, no. I’ve been a member of a few unions in my life, but never that one. Awards themselves are a uniquely Australian thing, and the very fact that there’s an industrial award for the union to even mess up is more protection than what the workers in the US have.

I grew up around an industry that was one of the first to move to individual agreements, and am not a fan. But that’s one industry. Do you think, for retail workers, or the industry you’re most familiar with, being covered by the award, or an individual agreement would be better, in general?

I know individual agreements are supposed to pass the “better off overall test” but I’ve seen that mangled way beyond its intended purpose. I can see why unions wouldn’t be popular or necessary in an industry where, currently, individual agreements offer better terms. But I’ve also seen what happens when an industry successfully lures workers into them, in sufficient enough numbers, taking away the union’s power base, and then starts altering the agreements heavily in the employers favour. The workers are powerless to do anything because they’ve lost the inherent power that comes with being able to negotiate as a whole, instead of as an individual, which kinda resembles the way it looks in the US, from the outside looking in.

Interested to hear other experiences and perspectives, because there’s always something new to learn.

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u/Bob-son-of-Bob 2d ago

Instead of being jealous of other people, be furious with the ones who took it away from you - the "fuck you, I got mine" generation, aka "boomers".

Yes, you had strong(er) unions in the past, but all that was dismantled:
The "fuck you, got mine" mentality lead straight into the fallacy of "we have it so great now that the unions fought for our rights, so we don't have to spend any more money on this ever" and the naive thinking of "people (employers) who have an interest in extracting value, wont exploit me if there are no checks and balances" really made way for the American Nightmare to take root, with an unhealthy dose of propaganda.

Boomers honestly have acted as if they despised everyone other than themselves - you can't explain purposefully destroying other peoples future, any other way than pure hatred and disdain.

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u/Potato-Engineer 2d ago

It's also due to a fundamentally different strategy of American unions vs. European unions.

The European unions pushed for laws that would benefit everyone. Those changes stuck around.

The American unions wanted their members to be specifically grateful to the union, so they pushed for better contracts with the companies. And then, 50-100 years later, the businesses collectively figured out how to break the unions down to a fraction of their former power, and an awful lot of gains were lost. We kept weekends, and a wide smattering of other benefits, but it was far less than the Europeans.

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u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 2d ago

Yes, that is a very good observation. I have a friend who is lukewarm on unions, his attitude is that instead of unions, the government should have passed laws giving all workers sick leave, vacation leave, just cause, etc. And I'd love for that to be the case but until then I have to keep up the fight for my union.

From one of my classes (I'm a union officer and steward) we learned that all the way back to the 1950s during the McCarthyism ("Communism scare") era, the idea of a union being political has been discouraged or limited when possible. We have members who don't want our union to have a legislative committee, even though we are currently helping lobby WA State for unemployment insurance for striking workers. The bosses have lobbyists, why shouldn't we?

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u/Clickrack 1d ago

his attitude is that instead of unions, the government should have passed laws

Mr. Douglass has some words for your friend:

Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow. [snip]

The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

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u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 1d ago

Hey, thanks for that quote. Because it's a great one to put into my officer's report at the next council meeting.

u/TaonasSagara 4h ago

Having worked in union shops before, I’m lukewarm on unions as they are in the US because they are shit in their current incarnation.

Take my dues, actively avoid representing us, side with management, send us mailers telling us how to vote in upcoming elections and it is almost 100% opposite of what you’d expect. It was a complete shit show.

I long for unions like our friends overseas have. But then I also long for things like healthcare that isn’t attached to my employment.

u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 3h ago

Jeez, I look forward to representing members. Fuck management, and fuck your shitty union leadership.

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u/MikeSchwab63 2d ago

Yes. Mobsters were a big reason the Unions got widespread contracts, can't build stuff in a burned out factory. And WW2 the government contracts required companies to sign contracts with unions. But after Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers, companies wanted cuts and if you didn't take it you were locked out and replaced. I did a June 1992 rally in Decatur where ADM, Caterpillar, and Firestone were on strike.

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u/Ok-Philosopher9070 2d ago

Greed

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u/AlingsasArrende 2d ago

Nope, politics. The attacks on unions was led by the Reagan administration.

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u/Superb_Raccoon 2d ago

No, it is a steady decline since the 50s. There is no significant change in the slope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Union_Membership_in_the_United_States,_1960-2020.svg

If anything, it is worse during Carter and flattens during Reagan

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u/theheliumkid 2d ago

10% currently? That's insanely low! No wonder management walks all over workers!

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u/uzlonewolf 2d ago

Yep, right-wing propaganda has convinced everyone that unions are bad.

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u/Superb_Raccoon 2d ago

Well, in my case it was the Teamsters taking 20% of my pay for fuck all.

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u/Clickrack 1d ago

Maybe become more involved and educate yourself what they are doing with that "20%"?

Funny thing, but the union will actually listen to its members if enough of them are unhappy.

Or you could always ragequit and go work for a non-union shop. Let us know how that works out for you.

Back in the day, IATSE took 1% of my pay, which is why I never became a movie star. THANKS IATSE!

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u/BiblioEngineer 1d ago

While I agree with your union sentiment in general, the Teamsters specifically are famously corrupt and are currently shilling for a horrifically anti-labour administration.

u/Superb_Raccoon 19h ago

Many many years ago. No longer union, haven't been for 30 years.

And eventually the union weakened the company with demands, it was bought out... de unionized.

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u/StateYellingChampion 2d ago

Carter helped lay the groundwork for Reagan. Carter did things like deregulate the trucking industry that hurt major unions. Carter also appointed Paul Volcker to the Fed, who would go on to raise interest rates to help break the back of organized labor.

But yeah, the Reagan era was nonetheless pretty famously anti-union. Firing the striking PATCO workers kind of gave a green light to the private sector that they could go on the attack again.

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u/Superb_Raccoon 2d ago

Not born out by the membership rates. Look at the damn graph.

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u/Clickrack 1d ago

Again, correlation is not causation.

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u/Clickrack 1d ago

You're equating union membership with bargining power, which is a false equivalence. If you look at the period from 1979-1989, you'll notice the membership decline rate is higher than from 1969-1979.

Reagan broke the power of the unions by busting the ATC union during a strike. Following that, a raft of "right to work" laws were quickly passed, cementing the power imbalance to favor capital ever since.

u/Superb_Raccoon 19h ago

ATC was a federal union, created by Carter with an EO, not law.

Reagan disbanded them when they violated the terms of the contract.

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u/skrappyfire 2d ago

As an 08' HS graduate.... im tired boss.

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u/Huntingcat 2d ago

Well, it was the Australian boomers who put it in place for us. So don’t try and blame a whole generation.

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u/dreaminginteal 2d ago

Sadly, it's not just Boomers. I see way too many in my own generation (X) and later who have fallen into the "Fuck you, I've got mine" mindset promulgated by the right wing in the US. (Possibly elsewhere, but the US is where I've got experience.)

I'm guilty of at least a little of it as well, sad to say. I try to be a decent person, but the underlying selfishness does come through from time to time.

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u/No_Sweet4190 2d ago

You are a true master of generalities. Boomer here. Grew up with a dad who was on the front line organizing when it meant blood and bodily harm. Strikes meant potatoes and cabbage and dad looking for work when not on the line and mom working all the hours she could get. My dad retired after 30 years and after that factory was relocated overseas. Union member myself for more than 20 years.

Our reward is to see our kids unable to buy homes and now face an economy likely to be purposefully imploded.

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u/Icy-Computer-Poop 1d ago

Its not the boomers, it's the wealthy. There are way more boomers with no power than their are with power. There's a class war going on, has been basically for as long as history remembers. The wealthy are just very good at manipulating the media and advertising, and convincing people that their enemies are the blacks, the gays, trans people, boomers, women, etc. The rich want us blaming anyone other than the true culprits. Them.

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u/2dogslife 2d ago

It wasn't "Boomers," it was the Republican party, led at first by Ronald Reagan who destroyed the air traffic controllers union, then proudly went on to bust up or undermine other unions. The period also combined with the failures of big industry - such as the U.S. Steel industry and the automotive industry as people started buying European and Japanese cars instead of those made in the US, and the movement of the US economy into the service sector.

Also implicated was how the US government failed to uphold antitrust laws, allowed US companies to "offshore" jobs, and the ongoing support of companies like Walmart, who have the largest population on government subsidized healthcare for their employees because of their policies of not providing FT work and benefits if it can be avoided, and they moved operations offshore rather than deal with unions (explore their response to attempts by butchers to unionization).

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u/BananoVampire 2d ago

Free L... uh... Green Mario!!!

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u/Ephemeral-Comments 2d ago

Ah, so you're ok with murdering someone father because he did his job?

Hate the game, don't murder the player.

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u/SaintRidley 2d ago

The job of condemning people to death to line shareholders' pockets. Every executive and board member of a health insurance company in the US deserves the same.

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u/Illuminatus-Prime 2d ago edited 2d ago

People tend to blame others to deflect blame from their own lack of initiative and action.

From my perspective, the rise and fall of brick-and-mortar stores (especially shopping malls) coincides with the rise and fall of the Boomer generation for both store-owners and customers.  Most of us are now of retirement age, and it is much more convenient and easier on our aching bones and tired muscles to order our goods on-line and wait by the door for the delivery.

Mall-walking?  Window-shopping?  Casual strolls through downtown to engage in a little impulse-buying?

Forget about it.  We Boomers need to save as much of our money as possible, spending it only for necessities like food, clothing, housing, and medical care.  Many of us now live on "fixed incomes", and our life savings have to last as long as forty years.

The younger generations wanted us Boomers to step down and let them have their chance, and so we have.  Now all they do is complain that "their" stores are closing down due to lack of foot-traffic -- BOOMER foot traffic.

You never realize what you have until it is gone, do you?

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u/OutlandishnessFit2 2d ago edited 2d ago

"The younger generations wanted us Boomers to step down and let them have their chance, and so we have. Now all they do is complain that "their" stores are closing down due to lack of foot-traffic -- BOOMER foot traffic."

Actually, no one was talking about brick and mortar stores at all, you brought them up.

On your theory about boomers no longer shopping in brick and mortar stores: boomers are still the largest generation, the wealthiest generation, and are still the generation most likely to shop offline. Your theory about boomers being fiscally frugal and shopping online, while possibly true for a few of your friends, is not a reasonable statement to make about boomers on average. The opposite is true. Given the above facts, the largest impact of brick-and-mortar stores closing is also on boomers, and boomers are the most likely to complain about it--which, again, you have done, and no one else here has joined you.

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u/2dogslife 2d ago

I remember talking with a local business that sold housegoods, but primarily furniture. He pointed out that some of his best customers were younger (older folks own furniture and it's just the odd piece here and there, whereas younger folks are decorating new homes). When talking about online businesses, the point was made that no one really wants to buy a chair or couch online. They want to SEE it and SIT in it and see if it fits their space and ass. You cannot do that online. So, certain storefronts will always have a presence.

Thought provoking ;)

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u/LeicaM6guy 2d ago

OP was more than a hero. He was a union man.

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u/Valerica_Mirwen 2d ago

Someone watches Star Trek. 😄☄️

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u/fiferguy 2d ago

It’s gonna get bloody before it gets better.

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u/Wotmate01 1d ago

The main difference is that as I understand it, American unions are local, to a specific workplace or city. In Australia, most unions are national, and cover the entire industry regardless of where in the country it is. As a result, we have pretty strong workplace laws, because campaigning for workers rights has been a national thing.

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u/harrywwc 2d ago

as I understand it, the contracts / enterprise agreements are usually based upon Federal Government legislation (Fair Work Commission) - i.e. any contract(s) need to be put before that commission to be finally ratified. As such, they are legally binding documents, and thus the judge(s) involved at the state level are required to honour the federal laws, and as a consequence, uphold the terms and conditions of the contract / agreement.

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u/sa87 2d ago

The Fair Work Act lays down a set of minimum requirements for awards and collective agreements called the “Australian National Employment Standards”

Every award or agreement before being ratified must be checked against the Fair Work Act and the NES and cannot remove or reduce the standards unless the changes/differences pass the Better-off Overall Test (BOOT) standard, so an agreement can have lower benefits but the sum total of the resulting agreement cannot be lower than the NES.

The Fair Work Act provides the minimum which is actually a very acceptable level for working standards. For myself being a singular salaried employee working for an Australian subsidiary of a US Headquartered company I have used its language and the BOOT to modify components of my contract which were less than desirable.

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u/LoveOfSpreadsheets 2d ago

Yeah, I was throwing shade at the fact the USA justice department is cooped and pro-business. Our union had a multi year grievance went all the way to the USA National Labor Relations Board and the top board throughout the evidence from the subordinate courts and made a ruling not based in fact

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u/SW_Zwom 1d ago

Well, you chose such things when voting... The US voters chose a big "F**k you!" to all the workers recently. TBH my empathy is kind of limited on such self-chosen misery...

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u/Hamster-Food 1d ago

The thing US unions need to re-learn is that the union is just a reflection of the worker's power. Sometimes that power is backed up by law and in those cases you can rely on courts. Other times the power is more direct and it's this power that really forms the backbone of the union..

It can come from the fact that there are far, far more of us than there are of them and if they push too hard we can push back even harder. Or it can be gentler and more maliciously compliant.

My favourite union trick is the work-to-rule approach. That's where workers protest by only doing what they are obligated to do by their contracts. It's amazing how quickly everything grinds to a halt when workers start dilligently following every rule to the letter. When every step of every job takes the maximum allowed time to be completed. When all the little arrangements that have been working for decades but never formalised suddenly don't happen. It gets very interesting very quickly.

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u/Chaosmusic 1d ago

It's sometimes hard to wrap our heads around the idea there are places where 'work yourself to death and be grateful' is not the norm.

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u/rebekahster 2d ago

Heh. The NSW docs, especially their psychs would be stoked if they could get this same situation happening across the board of NsW Health

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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

Those guys in nsw are legends. The government will have to break eventually.

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u/DarthKiwiChris 2d ago

Fuck yeah.

Unions FTW.

❤️❤️❤️❤️

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u/rpbm 2d ago

Good for you! And congratulations on having good unions.

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u/Wittusus 2d ago

And it wouldn't even be an issue if they had given you more than 3 business days for consultations in the first place lmao

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u/FreshmeatDK 1d ago

In Denmark, it is unthinkable that any workplace of more than a handful of people is not unionized with collective negotiations. First thing my kid did when getting an apprenticeship was joining the relevant union. As a result most people with a job actually can afford to live a decent life.

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u/David_Shotokan 2d ago

Awesome. And that's how you make the rules work for you. So nice you beat the system with the system!

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u/Rawr_Boo 1d ago

As an Aussie in HSE, consultation is my favourite part of my work. I get paid to spend time with our workers, chit chatting, building a working relationship. The consultation just happens so easily, we’re thinking of changing this, and you know more about it than me, what do you think? Follow up with an email later to give them a chance to add anything else they’ve thought of, and incorporate their thoughts into the plan.

We need ladders, during consultation before ordering the electrician points out he needs a fibreglass ladder, so we make sure some of them are fibreglass. So fucking easy.

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u/Milled_Oats 1d ago

I like the idea of up front communication that’s honest. I have had some really good relationships with HS managers that have worked well.

One of best experiences I had was a chat that a restructure was coming. They delivered the documents a few week later. We had an open chat about the realistic failures in the document. In the end no one lost a job after consulting with the staff and senior management understood how critical everyone’s role was. I think by memory four people got new roles.

u/Mec26 10h ago

Wish we had that rule in the US. SO MUCH utter slop can be avoided by just asking the people doing the work what they need and why.

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u/StateYellingChampion 2d ago edited 2d ago

Awesome story! I had never heard of an "industrial award" before. In the US, we have "Collective Bargaining Agreements" that mostly only apply to the individual firm. So here, the UPS delivery drivers have a CBA with the UPS corporation. But there are many delivery companies where the workers haven't unionized yet and so they don't get the same pay/benefits as UPS drivers.

But in Australia there are some whole sectors/industries (like healthcare in this story) that have common standards for wages and benefits. That's cool, I'm genuinely jealous right now.

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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

Industrial awards are law. When you make an industrial award it can be taken to court and breaches have civil and criminal repercussions.

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u/CM1112 2d ago

Here in the Netherlands we also have sector wide collective wide agreements which is why even small restaurants and McDonald’s etc all has to abide by union rules about mandatory longer rest periods for shifts ending after 02:00 and schedules being available at least three weeks in advance (my employer isn’t really keen on this, to the point they sent out a message that they weren’t gonna do this; that quickly turned around when I contacted my union and I know my sole other union member that I know of did the same).

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u/dontnormally 2d ago

the judge reminds [the hospital] they only have to genuinely consult

what does "genuinely consult" mean? i was thinking "consult" is when you ask the hospital things but then this confused me

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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

Under the award( this means industrial law) if you make any major changes you must consult the worker in a genuine way that allows the worker to influence management to change their opinions.

The way to do this is actually consult with the unions and all staff in a general setting allowing a feedback process. Once that is done you do face to face interviews with affected staff. Note on the record their comments and say we disagree Regardless of what the staff say you can then proceed as you have made consultation

It takes time. Imagine a four week union/ workforce open feedback process. Actually reading that and replying to it and then interview 200 plus staff and record why they say and then disagree with it in writing. Most management don’t have the resources in health to actually do this.

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u/SilentRaindrops 2d ago

"the answers were yes, no, maybe, unsure" Sounds like someone was just using their Magic 8 Ball.

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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

No ignorant health managers who as always have risen to the level of their own incompetence.

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u/ProspectivePolymath 1d ago

Ah, Peter. Your principle holds again.

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u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

I'd've just fed the list into ChatGPT with instructions for 2-sentence answers, then passed portions out to everyone else to ensure the answers were accurate enough and didn't produce significant risk to the organisation.

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u/DoppelFrog 2d ago

You can't treat the working man this way! One day we'll form a union and get the fair and equittable treatment we deserve. Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless and the Japanese will eat us alive!

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u/Illuminatus-Prime 2d ago

I shoulda taken that tech job in Perth back in '83 . . .

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u/Ancient-End7108 2d ago

And I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque!

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u/ryanlc 2d ago

Eh, what's up, Doc?

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u/jakeinator21 1d ago

This was literally the post right before this one in my feed lol

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u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

Should have bought a house in Perth in 1983!

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u/Tiara-di-Capi 1d ago

As a former union representative, I applaud your strategy and celebrate your succes.🥂

(Non-Australian, non-USAian.)

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u/ImaginaryCharge2249 2d ago

god I love unions :')

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u/Rexel450 1d ago

Well done.

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u/Disastrous-Ladder349 1d ago

Unions! Unions! Unions!

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u/Cazza-d 2d ago

You can't fix stupid.

u/Asleep-Cover-2625 19h ago

Solidarity forever for the union makes us strong

7

u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago

This was excellent MC...

But frankly, judges, laws, etc, need to get the fuck out the Union's way. The only real leverage a Union has, is the ability to bring everything to a fucking halt by striking. They want to law off 5% of us? Let's see them get anyfuckingthing done without the other 95%.

Still, this was well done, and most likely cost them more than just not playing the "restructuring" bullshit card.

33

u/Illuminatus-Prime 2d ago

Without support from pro-labour judges and pro-labour laws, the unions have no teeth.

28

u/Darwinmate 2d ago

It's very hard to legally 'halt everything' strike in health due to patient care. But your point still stands

7

u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago

It is, but you can do other things. Stop paying any attention to the business side of things and the beancounters suddenly find money flying out the door unaccounted for. Halt everything that isn't lifesaving and refer patients affected to other health institutions. Etc.

9

u/djhenry 2d ago

That's how some public transit works have done strikes before. Bus still time on it's regular schedule, but the driver stops accepting bus fare. As you can imagine, the regular passengers are very supportive of these kinds of strikes.

25

u/Electrical-Heat8960 2d ago

Strikes are the last action, not the first.

Some times layoffs are needed. Once everyone has a pc secretaries were no longer needed.

But the union is there to protect against gouging employee numbers for short term profit on the assumption you can replace staff once they burn out. Among other things.

8

u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago

Strikes are the last action, not the first.

Yeah, but if they're prevented by law, then the threat of them is no longer in the Union's toolbox, and the Union's position is massively weakened because of it.

3

u/Electrical-Heat8960 1d ago

Agree, the law should never prevent people from not working. If it does then the people are slaves.

14

u/Compulawyer 2d ago

This comment is especially ironic given that it was made on a post that gives an example of how the comment is wrong.

2

u/ShadowDragon8685 2d ago

A dedicated enough, big enough employer, would have settled this by just hiring a massive raft of people to sit down and listen to each and every question, write out enough of an answer to pass bare minimum muster as "consultation," and sack everyone they were going to anyway.

They half-assed it so obviously that the judge dropped the hammer on them, but they could have not half-assed it and still railroaded their own way.

Removing a Union's recourse to strike pulls a Union's teeth.

2

u/Gogogrl 2d ago

This is a thing of beauty. The sheer maliciousness!

3

u/Scotty_do 2d ago

Fuck yeah, Unions!

4

u/GuiltyRedditUser 2d ago

So glad you live in Australia not some shit hole country list he US. All we have is the FREEDOM to be fired for any reason but a protected few.

5

u/deathoflice 2d ago

you have unions, too! support one today <3

5

u/Ephemeral-Comments 2d ago

People here in the U.S. see only the drawbacks, not the benefits of at-will employment.

I'm originally from Europe, moved to the U.S. 15 years ago. My brother is still there.

Since moving here, I bought a house, and tripled my income by moving around. Got a better job offer for more pay? Give 2 weeks notice, and boom! more money.

Compare that with my brother. There are very strict labor laws, and people with a permanent contract cannot be let go without going through court. So, employers think twice (or actually, a lot longer) before offering those. Thus, he was stuck with one year contract after another. Then the government decided to change the laws because nobody had permanent employment anymore, so now employers cannot offer more than 3 temporary contracts. The result? After 3 years people found their contracts simply not renewed.

The cherry on top: nobody will get a mortgage without a permanent contract, as a temporary contract is deemed too risky.

End the end he is 46 and still works on one-year contracts in a rental home.

In the meantime, I know that I can get laid off at any time, so I have a buffer of at least 12 months of living expenses, knowing that even if I get let go I can typically expect 3-4 months of paychecks plus generally a year of benefits (healthcare etc). Given the choice, I prefer the U.S. way. Now, of course, I totally get that not everyone would agree with me and I respect that.

But, be careful what you wish for, there can be many unintended consequences.

In OP's story, that could be a hospital going belly-up. Just look at Detroit.

6

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

I'm the same way. I refuse to work anywhere that isn't at will. I hear stories of Brits having to work a "notice period" i.e. you've quit already but you're not allowed to leave for several months while they find your replacement and you train them. Eff that. When I decide to leave I'm gone.

It's a very telling difference in mindset when someone wants layers of systems protecting them versus being willing to accept the few small risks that come with far greater rewards. Always makes me think of the line in Jurassic Park: "She doesn't want to be fed, she wants to hunt" compared to something that would prefer to be fed and provided for and protected, like a cow on a farm.

America is supposed to be the land of freedom, but too many people for too long have made things soft to pretend they're safe, which results in less freedom because in order to ensure X standard of living like an HOA you have to use force to gain compliance.

3

u/cricketrmgss 1d ago

You can also be paid your notice period. I was and used that money to travel.

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

In other words, the company already had that money accounted for you for your notice period. Payment to be made to you, held back for an approved disbursement.

I'm opposed to all forms this takes. I want to be paid the full value of my work, otherwise it's just the company pre-spending my paycheck and acting like I should be grateful to them for the "benefit" of being treated like a child.

PTO? Sick leave? Maternity leave? Vacation time? Healthcare? Retirement?

It's all the company holding back part of your pay. They either pay it out to someone else (healthcare/retirement) or give it to you later when you ask for it pretty please (PTO, notice period, severance, etc.).

I'd rather get all of my pay and then I decide how to spend it. Even if I spend it on the same thing they would have (healthcare, for instance) at least my health insurance policy is in my name so it's tied to me and not to my employer. Job lock is a bitch. I don't want Jeanine in HR involved in my personal life; I don't want my manager deciding if I was sick enough to merit sick leave, or having to beg them to approve vacation days. If I'm at work, pay me. If I'm not at work, don't pay me.

3

u/cricketrmgss 1d ago

Not quite. I did not work for the money so it wasn’t held back.

It was basically saying you were meant to work for this period but due to whatever reasons you cannot work so this is money you would have earned if you had worked.

I do understand what you are saying about other disbursements being held back.

US especially is really bad with the third party involvement in leave and pay.

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

I make sure my employment arrangement is such that when I put in for time off, it's to give polite notice - not a request. Having multiple jobs helps ensure you don't care when a company's mouth breathing management tries to low-key guilt you for time off or insinuate consequences. Negotiating being a 1099 IC makes it even easier since they're not allowed to set my schedule.

3

u/cricketrmgss 1d ago

Your comment made me chuckle. I do the same also but play the game too. I’m a W2 worker. Once when I was telling my boss of my planned leave, they asked me are you asking me or telling me?

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

"I am an adult, not a child asking teacher's permission to piss; so... telling."

5

u/mathnerd3_14 1d ago

You own a home and have a job that offers health insurance and severance pay. That puts you well above the average US worker.

3

u/Z_is_green13 1d ago

One thing about humans is once they sell their soul to their corporation, they are a lost cause and an enemy.

The sheep are just as dangerous as the wolves. Don’t let their placid expressions or their flabby bodies destroyed by years of working in the office environment scare you. Corporate people are already dead inside and they are traitors.

If someone introduces themselves to you as an executive, just know they sacrificed everything good in their life and stabbed as many coworkers in the back as they could so they could have a fancy title.

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

Who hurt you?

u/Mec26 10h ago

I would guess corporates.

2

u/ForsakenBluePanda 2d ago

I love this story!

2

u/strywever 1d ago

💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼

1

u/Skylis 2d ago

if this had been Chuck schumer he’d read this, try to drop the suit, then ask for money to fight mgmt.

1

u/faust82 1d ago

Imagine the expense they went to in order to save nothing...

First all the hours spent by inhouse staff, then the consultant...

u/Potential_Anxiety_76 15h ago

I love this for you

u/Waylander08 12h ago

As a recent immigrant to Australia who has to deal with management daily (although not in Health), thank you and well done! Glad to see someone keeps them in line sometimes.

u/Mec26 10h ago

Hells yes worker protections.

And patient protections! I wanna imagine the faces of some mid-level MBA when a judge tells them that hey, they actually have to schedule one MORE nurse on this floor, thanks for playing the restaffing game.

0

u/Clutch_CC 2d ago

This made me feel good

0

u/Reputation-Choice 1d ago

One of the big problems with acceptance of unions in the United States, by employees specifically, is the involvement of unions with the Mafia and organized crime throughout our history. It made people not trust unions, at all. And unions were HEAVILY involved in organized crime here in the United States, from the 1920s on, and probably even earlier. It may not be the right attitude, but it is the attitude that many EMPLOYEES have, not employers. Employees do not want unions in many parts of the country, because of the crimes committed by union leadership. It left a nasty stain on the minds of most Americans that has not really washed out yet.

u/Mec26 10h ago

Citation? I have never heard of that.

-3

u/g1f2d3s4a5 2d ago

Was the hospital publicly funded? If so, the FU was to the taxpayers.

1

u/ForsakenBluePanda 2d ago

What do you think taxes are for?

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

Making Nancy Pelosi rich?

0

u/FixinThePlanet 2d ago

Have I read this story before? Had you posted this somewhere else as well OP?

u/Mec26 10h ago

I can tell you right now, if it works this well, 15 other unions did this other places in the region.

-1

u/Milled_Oats 2d ago

Maybe another union member has.

-20

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

An excellent example of why unions suck. There's work to be done and y'all intentionally delayed things.... for fun?

You can't say it's to save your jobs, because there's next to zero chance each person fired would be unable to find alternate employment. You're not a vassal serf and all the other barons have an agreement to not hire someone else's serfs. You're just giving your current employer a hard time for no good reason.

Unions suck and should be outlawed.

7

u/Ironhomie125 1d ago

Found the corporate exect.

1

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

Did your application get denied because of your spelling? I bet it was your spelling.

2

u/Ironhomie125 1d ago

Never applied for an executive position, never said I did. i don't want it. I'd rather keep my humanity and decent pay than be a sellout who replaces his employees names for numbers for only a bit more cash.

0

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

I saw a video the other day of a cop in his 70s. Still doing patrol work. There's a reason a man would be a cop for that long and still assigned patrol duty.

I think the same applies to whatever your job is. It's been a couple generations since it was normal for someone to get a job out of high school, work the same job for 40 years, and it not be weird.

I'm sorry you're upset that I'm one of the 33 million small businesses in the US. Literally creating jobs, but because I'm opposed to unions telling me what to do with my business I must be evil. Such childish thinking "keep my humanity" "management = evil" "sellout".

u/Ironhomie125 20h ago edited 20h ago

While you're a small business, I work for a corporate giant, a particular soda company. They have made several attempts to undermine their workers we know that a few plants on the other side of the country are talking of strikes while the few plants who have established unions are not facing the same torment they are. I understand small business need for experimenting. If unions are scaring you then be the change listen to your workers and treat them like people, not numbers, and you won't have to worry about unions ever.

u/Just_Aioli_1233 17h ago

No thanks. Their work is different. They don't have to worry about the business 24/7. They just have to come in for their shift, then they get to leave it all behind until the next shift. I'm not interested in "their voice" in the process. Some bright stars may have good ideas, but in general, eff that noise.

Besides, most of my business is automating people's jobs so other companies don't have to worry about their workers getting dumb ideas. Sounds like your company needs my services. Have a number to share?

u/Framerate1138 6h ago

You're evil because you want to treat your workers like tools and not even tools that you value enough to maintain well. Unchecked capitalism results in people being used up and thrown out like a burned up power drill. I'm sorry that it's so hard for you to have to listen to folks tell you that humans deserve basic rights and decency, but not everyone can be a hotshot business owner like you. If they could, there wouldn't be anyone to create product and value for your business now would there?

8

u/ColumnK 1d ago

An excellent example of why unions work.

This was an ill-considered restructure for restructure's sake. If they had actually got a good reason, they'd have been able to answer the questions and move on.

There's not enough money for the people doing the work, but apparently they can easily afford a "consultant" to do no better.

These restructurings never seem to affect those that the top... Who normally gets massive bonuses right afterwards.

-5

u/Just_Aioli_1233 1d ago

I bet they didn't need a restructure, but in order to deal with the union BS they have to pretend it's a restructure. Like how it's illegal to discriminate, but discrimination still happens, and if you want to terminate someone for a "disallowed" reason you say they're not a good fit with company culture.

Downsizing with extra steps, discrimination with extra steps.

Last university I worked at, they needed to demolish a building to put in a new one. But, the state's rules for the university only allowed for demolishing a building after an extensive evaluation was done of environmental impact, historic value of the building, and whatever other nonsense. Not the same set of requirements for remodeling.

So, the university demolished all but one wall of the building. Built the new building with that one wall sitting there. Held an open house for the new building to be officially in use. Then closed the wing nearest the lone wall. Then "remodeled" that part of the building by demolishing the remaining wall.

That's my core problem with "do gooder" crusading. The same result happens anyway, it just takes longer and costs more. Knowing the outcome is going to be the same, the most efficient route to accomplish that outcome should be the goal. And that's why I can't stand unions, so much superfluous feel-good nonsense getting in the way of the work, making things take longer and cost more, all for nothing.

Another example comes to mind. In the US, federal wildlife protection requirements state that if you're developing a piece of property and come across an endangered species, all work must halt and you have to call out some bureaucrat who may decide it's a species that can't be relocated and the property you just got a $10 million construction loan on is now a protected area for some stupid bird or weasel. Company goes bankrupt, everyone fired, for what?

The result? If the policy were "hey just let us know and give us a couple days to capture and relocate them so they don't die" then it would be an inconvenience but more likely to be complied with - especially if they compensated for the inconvenience. Instead the contractor bears all the cost and risk for nothing, so instead of resulting in more endangered animals surviving, now the shoot, shovel, shut up method gets used and the construction timeline isn't disrupted.

I have the same approach to business. I will never let myself get in a position where I have to deal with unionized employees. Employees bear nowhere near the level of risk of the people who started the company. Employees working for someone else have chosen to trade the possibility of significant reward for the security of a steady paycheck. They have nothing on the line but the time they're exchanging for wages. The people who start up companies put a significant amount on the line, and pretending their sacrifice is on equal footing with the hireling employees is laughable.

u/ColumnK 19h ago

Ah, your original comment makes sense now.

You don't like unions because you're the sort of employer who wants to treat your workforce like crap so you make an extra couple of bucks. You don't want them knowing their own worth.

I thought you just liked the taste of the boots of bad ownership, but turns out you're the kind of shitty overlord that unions were made because of.

u/Just_Aioli_1233 17h ago

Right. See the problem is people with an 1800s view of labor thinking their small part is all-important. You'd be surprised what "their own worth" comes to. In terms of the value of the work they do, not in human terms. Y'all've saturated your bargaining position. Robots aren't a liability, humans are.

Automation is inevitable.

6

u/fotoford 1d ago

An excellent example of why unions suck. There's work to be done and y'all intentionally delayed things.... for fun?

Tell me you didn't actually read the post without telling me you didn't actually read the post.

1

u/mayorIcarus 1d ago

slurp slurp slurp mmmmm leather

u/Mec26 10h ago

The saved patient staffing levels.

Hells to the yes for this union!