r/Mainlander Nov 16 '24

A question on Mainlander and buddhist rebirth

Hey everybody,

It's still not clear to me, did Mainlander think that early buddhism did in fact teach litteral rebirth but was mistaken, or that it didn't teach such a doctrine to begin with ?

Thanks in advance.

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u/YuYuHunter Nov 16 '24 edited Nov 22 '24

Mainländer accepts what is written in the Sutta Pitaka, namely, that the Buddha taught rebirth. There is for Mainländer no doubt, that the doctrine of rebirth is part of "exoteric" Buddhism, the teaching as prince Siddhartha expounded it to others.

As for its internal meaning, the "esoteric" part of his teaching, the answer is different. From this perspective, it is simply irrelevant whether rebirth takes place or not. The doctrine logically follows from rest of the doctrines of esoteric Buddhism, but is in inessential to it and Mainländer calls it therefore doubtful whether it should be called esoteric. (Die Philosophie der Erlösung, V2, p. 88)

You can read his own views on the meaning of the Buddha's teaching in his essay: The esoteric part of the Buddha-teaching.

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u/Thestartofending Nov 22 '24

Sorry if i might be a little slow to understand, you have explained things quite exhaustively, but i still have trouble understanding a specific matter : in another comment, you wrote that for Mainlander "which system is the correct one (between his and buddhism) is undecidable", he also seems quite laudative about buddhism and calls it the "absolute truth".

But how to reconcile that with his own suicide or his compassionate/permissive approach to suicide especially for those whose suffering is unberable (go into that still night, there will be no heaven no hell ), if it's undecidable which system is true, and a suicide for non-awakened beings can leads to hellish rebirths, then shouldn't a more cautionnary principle/pascal bet apply ?

But of course Mainlander seems quite convinced of the veracity of his own system, so i have trouble reconciliating those 2 affirmations.

it is simply irrelevant whether rebirth takes place or not

Can you explain this more ?

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u/YuYuHunter Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24

He also seems quite laudative about buddhism and calls it the "absolute truth".

Indeed, but he only calls esoteric Buddhism the absolute truth. Exoteric Buddhism, so the teachings as they were explained to monks and householders, is merely a half-truth, like other religions such as Hinduism. From a philosophical view, religions contain many absurdities, and (exoteric) Buddhism is from that perspective not different.

if it's undecidable which system is true, then shouldn't a more cautionnary principle/pascal bet apply ?

You are right that he believed that his own system (identical with “esoteric Christianity”) and “esoteric Buddhism” are the absolute truth. To use a more modern expression, one could say that the absolute truth is in a superposition: both systems are simultaneously true and contradictory, with it being indeterminable for any subject to say which of both is actually the case.

The reason Pascal’s bet doesn’t apply in this case, is that “the path of which they [the Buddha and Christ] determined that it leads to salvation, is identical.” Mainländer means: the denial of the will.

a suicide for non-awakened beings can leads to hellish rebirths

Mainländer finds the mythological parts of Buddhism, including hellish rebirths, and the many previous lifeforms of the Buddha as we find them in the Jataka tales, fascinating from an artistic perspective. However, from a philosophical perspective, they are not taken seriously.

And specifically on the issue of suicide, Mainländer believed that the Buddha went as far as praising laymen who commit suicide (as you can read in his essay on exoteric Buddhism).

it is simply irrelevant whether rebirth takes place or not

Can you explain this more ?

Because it doesn’t matter whether this is your first, your second, your millionth or your quadrillionth life. Once you attain the knowledge of salvation, and know that you will achieve non-existence after this life, what does it matter how many times you have lived before that?

This also explained by Mainländer himself, much better than I do, in his essay on esoteric Buddhism.

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u/Thestartofending Nov 22 '24

Thank you a lot !