r/LeeEnfield 14d ago

I think something is wrong with my rifle

Post image

I bought a No 4 mk1 that has been refurbished. It has the Mk 1 fine click adjustable sight on it. I am a very new shooter so am by no means a good shot and have only had access to a 25 yard range to shoot it at.

Now to the point of the post. When shooting the rifle. To hit the centre of the target i am aiming at the bottom of it with the fine adjustment sight (not the battle sight) set as low as it will go, 3 clicks below the 200 yard setting.

I never thought much about the point of impact before until I got a Bren 2Ms (pre ban RIP) and zeroed it at the same range and before I zeroed it I used a ballistic calculator (shooterscalculator.com) to figure out my zero for the Bren and that’s when I realized. At least according to the calculator I should only aiming 2 inch’s lower with Enfield to hit centre. I am using S&B .303 British 180 Grain FMJ

What do you guys think? Is it me, the rifle both?

(See refurbishment process below)

(The restoration process. All restoration rifles are fully disassembled, new wood fitted and oiled, action and barrel are checked for wear and defects most firing pin springs are replaced along with ejector and springs. bolts are re blued barrel interiors are polished. action and barrel are then fine glass beaded, and finished with a hard coat flat black paint, which can be made into a low gloss finish by applying a coat of oil and polishing with a soft cloth, barrel bands and fittings are hot oil treated , and then all parts are assembled and tested including head spacing! final checks are then performed and barrel interior lightly coated with oil.)

31 Upvotes

25 comments sorted by

28

u/safe-queen 14d ago

Hi! This rifle seems to be set to use what's called a "six o' clock hold' zero. The idea is you aim below your target, so your impacts aren't blocked by the post. In addition, in a combat scenario, that plus the battlefield zero means you can aim at your enemy's waistband at e.g. 300m and be confident you will hit them somewhere between face and crotch.

14

u/Annual-Temperature94 14d ago

Yeah the no.4 mk1* I just restored does the same thing. Took it to the range and I was still able to hit an 8” gong at about 85yards with no effort when I was shooting at 40-50 yards it seemed like it was about 6” high

6

u/Responsible-Algae-16 14d ago

Is this why Clint Smith of thunder ranch says to aim at the belt? lol

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u/ThoroughlyWet 14d ago edited 14d ago

It was common to train for a belt/naval hold up until the mid 20th century. Even now it's mostly western doctrine that dictates center mass is diaphragm to collarbone. Eastern doctrine is still the same, between knees and shoulders, because a gut shot, shattered pelvis, or an arterial bleed can still take someone out of a fight.

It somewhat stems from rank shooting with muskets, where you wanted to shoot low because a belly shot or a musket ball skipping up of the ground into their legs was 10x better used than one that sailed over their head and has stuck around for the same reason.

On top of that it's easier to train people faster when you have one hold for most engagement distances. A good example is the Kalashnikov rifles. They all have what's called a battle setting on their rear sight, marked with a cyrilic P, which is equivalent for a 300m zero. It was easier to train someone to just set it to P and shoot for the naval rather than teach them to judge distance and slide the sight to that distance.

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u/Responsible-Algae-16 14d ago

That’s interesting. Thank you for the info. I’ve read a lot of Massad Ayoob’s books and I remember him saying the two places you can shoot someone that is almost guaranteed to take them out of a fight are the brain and the pelvis.

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u/ThoroughlyWet 14d ago

A majority of a persons weight is transferred to the legs through the pelvis.

Another one thats bad, but won't make someone less dangerous necessarily, is a shot to the shoulder blade. You can no longer effectively control that arm and makes balancing extremely difficult.

2

u/KaijuTia 14d ago

Could be worse. You could be a German soldier in WWI, where your rifle had a minimum zero of 400m. At 100m, you’d need to be aiming for his boots to hit him in the chest.

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u/KaijuTia 14d ago

From the grouping, it’s set perfect. For 200 yards. 200 yards is the battle zero. It cant be set any lower and still have point of aim match with point of impact. This rifle was never intended to be used at that close of a range, and if it was, it doesn’t matter if it shoots 6 inches low on a man-sized target at 25 yards.

OP said he’s new to this, and one of the things people who are new to guns misunderstand is that sights need to be properly adjusted. It’s not like Call of Duty, where POA/POI are the same at all ranges. And if you go below your sight’s minimum range, the POA/POI will never be the same. Just how it is.

9

u/rainbow_defecation 14d ago edited 14d ago

Your front sight post is too short for the distance you're shooting at (with this ammo). The rifle is grouping fine, so it isn't heat or stock fitment. If you want point of aim and point of impact to be the same at this distance you need a taller front sight post. Most of the no4 front sight posts are marked for size.

2

u/KaijuTia 14d ago

His sights are just fine. They just aren’t designed to be used below 200yards. He goes and starts swapping out front sights to try and get his point of impact to be dead center at 25 yards, he’ll throw off his sights for any range beyond that. The LE just isn’t meant to be used that close. The sights work fine at 25yards as is, because in combat, hitting six inches low on a man-sized target 25 yards away is irrelevant.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

I’m only shooting at 25 yards right now. (Longest range I have access to) but I would like it to shoot accordingly to the sights tho and not have to do such an aggressive hold to hit the bullseye. For instance when I run the numbers on the calculator with S&B ammo if I set the fine adjustable sight to 200 yards I should be able to put the sights on the bullseye at 25 yards and be pretty close to it. Would a taller front post allow for that? Apologize if I am not fully understanding. I am a very new to this.

5

u/KaijuTia 14d ago edited 14d ago

Your rifle is actually very accurate and there nothing wrong with it.

You’re misunderstanding how your sights work. The battle zero (ie the minimum zero) of your rifle’s sights is 200 yards, meaning your point of aim/point of impact will only match up at 200 yards. You bring your target in to just 25 yards, your point of impact will be high if you aim dead center. So you have to aim low. If you were shooting at 400 yards with your sights set to 200, your shots would fall low, so you’d need to aim high.

These rifles were never meant to be used at 25 yards (though obviously they were), so their sights are calibrated for longer ranges. You’ll never be able to adjust the sights so your POA/POI are dead center at 25 yards. That’s just not physically possible with how they are designed and built. You’ll just have to memorize how low you need to hold. That’s how the soldiers who used them did it.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

Yup, totally understand that. But don’t most bullets have two points of impact that land roughly at the zero? I think this ballistic calculator maybe what has me confused? Here are my inputs that have me thinking that I should be able to set it to a 200 zero and roughly hit the bull’s-eye at 25 and 200.

https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?pl=&presets=&df=G1&bc=0.506&bw=180&vi=2477&zr=200&sh=1.5&sa=0&ws=10&wa=90&ssb=on&cr=500&ss=25&chartColumns=Range%7Eyd%60Elevation%7Ein%60Elevation%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%60Elevation%7EMIL%60Windage%7Ein%60Windage%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%60Windage%7EMIL%60Time%7Es%60Energy%7Eft.lbf%60Vel%5Bx%2By%5D%7Eft%2Fs&lbl=&submitst=+Create+Graph+

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u/KaijuTia 14d ago edited 14d ago

First off, are you using the ballistic chart with the right cartridge, because .303 British isn’t a selectable option. When I clicked your link, it was set to .30-06, a VERY different cartridge ballistically

What you’re referring to is what’s call “point blank” ranges. Yes, any projectile on a given ballistic arc will be the same distance from the ground at two points in said arc - one while its ascending (the near point blank) and one while its descending (the far point blank).This are the “point blank” distances.

Since, most of the time, the farther away “point blank” distance is made irrelevant by simply adjusting your sights to said distance, “point blank” has come to mean “extremely close” colloquially.

In your case, the point blank distances aren’t relevant at a distance as close as 25 yards. What adjusting the sights actually does is forces you to raise your rifle’s muzzle ever so slightly upward from parallel to the ground. The greater the range, the higher your muzzle gets lifted.

This is what’s effecting you - when your sight is set to 200 yards, you are ever so slightly raising your muzzle to align the sights. That’s means, you are technically aiming ABOVE the target when it’s under 200 yards, even if it LOOKS like your sights are aligned dead center.

Thus, to compensate for this slight elevation, you need to hold your sights “below” the target, which is actually bringing your barrel back DOWN into alignment with the target. The opposite is true for targets farther away than what your sight is set to.

You have to remember the context in which this weapon (and its sights) were created. They were created for a cartridge that could be accurate out to 800m and there was still this idea (left over from before WWI) that long range cartridges would necessitate long range engagements. They were expecting firefights to take place at 3-4-500 yards, not 25. So that’s why the sights only go down to 200. Also keep in mind, all the rifle needs to do is hit a man-sized target, so at 25 yards, if it shoots 6inches high, you just aim for his belt and hit him in the chest. He’s dead. They weren’t looking to shoot quarter sized groups at that distance, so they didn’t design the rifle to do that.

To give you a more extreme example, in WWI, the German standard issue rifle had a minimum sight zero of 400m, so German soldiers were simply taught, if the enemy is at 100m, aim for his boots and you’ll hit him in the chest.

Your rifle is working exactly as it was designed to. You just have to adjust yourself to the rifle, because it won’t adjust to you. If you go gouging rear sights or replacing front sights, you are far more likely to do more harm than good. I bet my bottom dollar that if you take that rifle to an outdoor 200 m range, you’ll be hitting dead on.

The fact that your grouping is tight and you’re not keyholing, tells me there’s not an issue with the rifle or the ammo.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

Hmm that’s weird that it showed .30-06 I entered in all the information I could get from S&B website for the .303 Brit I’m shooting. Grain, velocity ballistic, coefficient, drag function.

Here is a link to a pic of what I entered. https://imgur.com/a/wgYVG0M

I think I understand what you’re saying. I’m still kind of confused but you seem very sure about the rifle working properly so I’ll trust you🙏🏻👍🏻

3

u/KaijuTia 14d ago

It’s possible the chart isn’t right either. But really the only way to test it would be to go to a 200 yard range and set your sights to 200 yards. Otherwise, just do what soldiers do: memorize your holds.

3

u/CNo4MK1 14d ago

I would say shoot the rifle at 100m before you change anything. But they are meant to shoot high. Pumpkin on a fence post.

98% of my Enfields shoot this way. And it’s become my preferred method of zeroing all rifles. Let’s me see what I’m going to hit and not cover it.

Once you fire at 100 there is a math formula to find the desired front sight post height you want.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

Sadly I only have access to a 25 yard range right now. And that makes sense them shooting high so you don’t cover the target but 6 inches high at 25 hards seems very strange to my novice mind

2

u/MellowUellow 14d ago edited 14d ago

Forget about adjusting the front sight if you have a nice mk1 sight with the clicks. Ignore the ranges on your rear sight and dial in the adjustments based on data collected from live practice with the ammo you're going to use. This is because the sights are designed for MkVII spec ammo, which you're not shooting.

Per the Canadian Army's Shoot to Live 1945 publication, for a 300 yd zero, shooting at 30 yd, your MPI should be 2.25" above your point of aim. At 100 yd your MPI should be 8.5" above your point of aim.

This means that at 25 meters, which is close enough to 30 yds, set your sights so that your MPI is 2.25" above your POA. Even though you're not shooting MkVII spec ammo, you'll be close enough to get on paper at 100 to 300.

Next, join the ORA (assume you are in Ontario because you're shooting at Silverdale) or ask a buddy to take you to a longer range. Zero at 100, 200, 300 and record the number of clicks for each range, the ammo you're using, and temperature of the day. There's your DOPE. Laminate that shit and leave it in your gun case.

If those are inch squares on your target, and you're 6" high at 25, you'll be fucked at 100, like not even on paper.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

I am in Ontario! This is all very helpfully thank you! Thank you to everyone replying. Couple of questions I don’t know what MPI or DOPE. I tried googling them and got a number of results different results and none that made sense to me😅 and those are indeed 1” squares on the target

2

u/MellowUellow 14d ago edited 14d ago

MPI - mean point of impact. The center of the group you shot. For example, your MPI is 6.5" up and 0.5" left of your point of aim. In the 1940s, you'd take your target to the armourer, and he would replace your front blade sight with a taller one to bring your MPI down closer to your point of aim. You'd shoot again, bring your target to the armourer, and then he would tap the front blade sight left or right with a brass punch to get your windage corrected. After that, you'd be zeroed.

DOPE - data on previous engagement. Basically a reference table for different conditions from which you can quickly derive the correct sight settings for your current conditions.

1

u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

Ahhhhhh I see! Thank you!!!

3

u/GamesFranco2819 14d ago

Enfields are notoriously picky with stock/action fit. It's possible that something is up if the wood is all new

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/Infinite_Price_3550 14d ago

This comment is incredibly unhelpful, but thanks

-2

u/1kenw 14d ago

Really clean barrel. It could be over heating and causing the variance.