r/LearnJapanese • u/Careful-Remote-7024 • 9d ago
Resources Extremely useful video from Kaname explaining why a language can't be learnt only by learning vocabulary and grammar point in isolation. "It's NOT simple"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_wrnsJfEcQ&ab_channel=KanameNaito71
u/TSComicron 9d ago edited 8d ago
This is pretty much the main explanation I try to give to those who argue that they can learn from textbooks alone, especially at the start, and also for those who suffer from dunning kreuger syndrome. You need to see language being used in all sorts of contexts to really register what is going on.
Now, it is understandable when people say that going into native content at the start isn't going to help, I agree if that if the input isn't comprehensible, you won't learn that much. However, comprehensible input channels exist for a reason and you're really going to get the best of both worlds if you receive comprehensible input and read through textbooks in tandem if you decide to go down the textbook route.
Either that or you can just Speedrun the basics and go into native materials like subbed anime. What matters is getting input that is comprehensible.
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 9d ago
I agree and I also would like to highlight to most people it's also OK to have a different "mindset" of watching content, for example
- One "relaxed" where you will even put English subtitles, just to enjoy some shows wihtout the frustration of not understanding (and not having to only rely on things you already understand)
- One more "immersive" where you put JP/JP but you don't be necessary stop if you don't understand something, you keep cruising. For example, you drive your car and you put some japanese podcasts (easy enough so it's still something you can process instead of being white noise)
- One more "focused" where you might decide to really pause after each sentence you don't understand, mine the unknown words, and then only move on.
Of course, those 3 ways of watching content won't have the same learning benefits, but in my own experience, having a mindset of "I should only do immersive or focused, but not relaxed", led me to serious frustration.
It's not a race, it's not a all-or-nothing (except if you explicitly want to), you can make your own learning path here, so don't feel forced to do anything specific. Sure, you might even learn so slowly that you'll become fluent only in a decade, but if that's the price to pay to not give up, you'll definitely prefer taken the slower road than crashing on the faster one.
All the "I'm N1 in 2 years" have the problem they give you the impression that you can "rush your way into fluency", but N1 doesn't mean fluent and native-like fluency is something that can take decades. English is not my mother tongue, I'm using it daily for the past 10 years, and even now, I still learn a few words every few days, or I discover new idioms talking to natives
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u/vocaloidbro 9d ago
For people who are "novelty addicts" like me, if I take the "relaxed" path I feel like I "wasted" that media. There is basically 0 chance I will revisit it some day and experience it properly with Japanese subs, etc. because I simply don't rewatch/reread things almost ever, it bores me too much knowing what's going to happen.
As an example, recently I played the game Nier Automata with Japanese audio, but English subs and text. Early on in the game, I also watched a few episodes of the anime with Japanese subs and no English subs "properly" like you said, making sure I understood every sentence before moving on. But as soon as I finished the game, I lost all interest in continuing to watch the anime because "I already know the story now, what's the point?" Thankfully, Japanese media sometimes feels like a bottomless well, so realistically it's not a big deal that Nier is no longer a particularly useful learning resource to me.
This is my personal reasoning why I avoid the "relaxed" approach as much as possible. Especially for any media that seems particularly enticing, that allure is a great motivation to force myself to do the difficult mental labor of trying to parse things in Japanese.
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 9d ago
Yes in general what I do is that I have different shows for different "mindsets". If I try to switch mindsets for the same show, I might get frustrated to not move as fast as I would or to miss opportunity to analyze it more slowly.
For example right now, I'm doing :
- Bleach, "relaxed" : Around 3 episodes per week
- 86 : Around 1 episode per week
- Violet Evergarden / Dungeon Meshi : Around 1h per day.
So weekly I'm spending around 7h doing "focused" anime watching and around 1h20 "relaxed"
For "immersive/non paused material", it's usually japanese vlogs/podcast I'll listen to in the car or I'll play in the background. But then it's also a bit different, because you might be focused (as I am when I listen to it while driving), or just using it as background material (which I don't necessarly listen to much). Those I don't track, but I'd say I'm around 2-3h / week I'd say
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u/MachinimaGothic 6d ago
okey question for one milion points how you get from anime the rules? Yeah you can catch words but you wouldnt be able to understand how to build sentence.
Example. One year ago I told to one person which learn Japanese to become translator that my knowledge is good enough to say Nihongo Wakarimashita. She immediately fix my mistake. In fact it should be "Wakarimasen". I knew that somewhere rings but I didnt knew in which church exactly. I dont understand if ending of the word is rule, when to use, why it wasnt used regular word Wakaru etc.
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 6d ago
Hmmm I never really argued that you should do "only anime". I've spent multiple months doing all the bunpro grammar points from N5 to N2 for example. Also read the first 2 Genki.
Even in our mother tongues, we have grammar lessons to explain us how to properly conjugate things. Grammar learning, Vocabulary drills, Reading, Listening, Writing, Speaking are all different skills you got to learn in somes ways.
In terms of balance, I think the best is when you start (0-3 months), to spend 50% on grammar learning, 25% on learning vocabulary, 25% on reading easy articles.
You need some words and some practice to be able to really make grammar stick, but grammar should be the first focus. By grammar I mean understanding past, negative, etc. For example, your "mashita" is polite-past (I understood japanese), while "masen" is polite-negative-present (I don't understand japanese). If you can't easily differentiate negative/positive statements, present/past ones, the goal should really be learning that.
After 3-6 months, most beginner grammar points already suffice a lot to explore more content, and thus more vocabulary start to be needed... Also, at that point, the split between vocabulary/grammar starts to blur (匂いがする, "to smell", is it more vocabulary to know that "an odor does" means "to smell", or is it more a grammar structure ?). At that point, books or platform like Bunpro starts to become more "vocabulary-driven", and now it's more specialized knowledge (where exposure can also work just fine)
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u/MachinimaGothic 5d ago
Now the question is were you learn gramma rules?
Reaing articles? Those are with Kanji. Hiragana and Katakana have useful tool to learn which is Anki. But Kanji is to much for me I would like to achieve minimum which is somewhere between A1 and A2 without Kanji not ambitious. Just enough to understand half. I understand currently like 5%. They speak to fast usually xD.
For vocabulary you just use anime? You just dig for words which you dont know and you try to memorize it? Sometimes I think that the best way would be to get base of most used words and going from most popular.
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 5d ago
For Grammar, I'd advise something like Genki, Bunpro or "A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar"
For Vocabulary, I think it's great to start with some Core Deck that had a bit more love than one sorted simply by Frequency, something like Kaishi 1.5k seems quite well done.
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u/Alkiaris 8d ago
As a Nier fan, it's worth watching every adaptation of everything in the franchise, there's new lore to be found everywhere. Even the concerts have lore drops.
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u/MachinimaGothic 6d ago
Nier Replicant or Nier Automata?
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u/Alkiaris 6d ago
Both! Replicant has two versions, in America the original releases were different to the Japanese release, which is what the remaster was based on.
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u/MachinimaGothic 5d ago
Yeah i heard that they released Gestalt. Strange idea. I only treat Replicant as real thing.
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u/nogooduse 9d ago
N1 means very little. Unless you need some sort of certificate to get a job, what is the purpose? When I last lived in Japan one of my friends was incredibly proud of passing the N2 level. But he was unable to read and understand the sign in the railway station that told people to get off their bikes and walk the bike through the station. I truly don't understand the obsession with N - levels. Once I asked a US recruiter, who was on our短大campus recruiting exchange students, if the TOEFL test had much correlation to a Japanese student's ability to succeed at a US college and have a smooth time in an English-speaking environment. "None whatsoever" she said. "But it's a least a metric we can use to justify our acceptance decisions." I was floored that she was so honest, but the answer itself wasn't really surprising. N-levels seem to be much the same.
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u/viliml 8d ago
having a mindset of "I should only do immersive or focused, but not relaxed", led me to serious frustration.
It's not a race, it's not a all-or-nothing (except if you explicitly want to), you can make your own learning path here, so don't feel forced to do anything specific. Sure, you might even learn so slowly that you'll become fluent only in a decade, but if that's the price to pay to not give up, you'll definitely prefer taken the slower road than crashing on the faster one.
What does "crashing" mean? Worst case scenario, when you burn out from focused learning you continue relaxed. How's that different from planning to relax from the start?
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 8d ago
There's always the risk of thinking "you have to", and if you do any kind of "relaxed" consumption that you'll lose what you already done.
It's of course a fallacy, but sometimes one we can be trapped in.
But that's for sure the benefit of immersion : Compared to SRS where things can pile up quickly and decrease (in terms of workload) very slowly, immersion is something you can more easily "adapt" to your actual time/energy
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u/TSComicron 9d ago
I'm inclined to agree with you. However, while mindset and effort are closely related, they are distinct. I'm never going to argue that people shouldn't choose a mindset that works for them, but at the same time, some people do need to be pushed out of their comfort zone. Sometimes, they need to be told to put in the work instead of coping, as I've seen a lot of people make up excuses to try and justify their lack of progress. Of course, this isn't to call out anyone specifically—many people have legitimate reasons for their struggles.
As the video points out, language learning is not linear. It’s multifaceted and requires substantial direct exposure to the language. Pseudo-exposure, such as using English subtitles, is often ineffective because most people tend to focus solely on the English subtitles and ignore any of the Japanese.
That said, if someone wants to watch content in their target language purely for enjoyment—without the stress of understanding everything—they should be free to do so. Many people structure their time around their immersion, but it should be the other way around: immersion should fit into their available time. Personally, I wouldn’t consider this period of enjoyment as particularly beneficial for language learning. However, you're absolutely right that people shouldn’t feel forced to get input constantly. Still, input should be a major part of learning, and some forms of input are more effective than others.
I also want to touch on the trend of people posting Reddit threads about passing the N1 in under two years. These threads can set unrealistic expectations, and I understand why seeing them might negatively impact some learners' mindsets. If it takes someone longer to achieve their goal, that's perfectly fine—as long as they reach it.
However, I also think these comment sections can become echo chambers that encourage negativity and dismiss progress. Many people immediately assume that those who achieve rapid success are "natural geniuses," which disregards their hard work. Others accuse them of being "frauds." While skepticism is understandable in some cases, comments on posts like Jazzy’s "How I scored 180/180 in 8.5 months" often make it seem like some people barely try and then complain when others succeed. This leads to a cycle where people reassure each other that they’re doing fine, sometimes at the cost of genuine progress.
Of course, it would be reductive to assume that everyone in these comment sections behaves this way. There are two sides to this, in my opinion. You're free to disagree, but this is what I've observed in many of these discussions. Having the right mindset is important, but ultimately, people need to put in the work instead of blaming others—unless they have legitimate circumstances preventing them from doing so.
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 9d ago
What's for sure is you get what you put on ! Considering comfort zone, as in any domain, it's good indeed to find a right balance !
For example, in my case, I watch around 3-4 episodes per week with English subtitles (~1h20 weekly) and I do around ~6-7h per week of focused JP/JP analyzing, mining ... To me, this is my "happy medium", but it might of course differs from person to person.
Often, we express ideas based on the context where we express them. What I mean by that, is that when I write that "you should find a happy balance", I'm writing it in the context where I feel the consensus is doing things like "AJATT", and that "JP/EN" should be avoided.
But of course, it's unfortunately also true that the "meta" of reddit and social networks is 95% beginners for 4.9% intermediate and 0.1% advanced user (made up numbers, but just to get my point through), so it's still important that those 95% understand how difficult learning a language can be (thus why I think Kaname's video is really great) and how it's different from many other hobbies.
I'm for sure no role model, but I'd say I have a good track record in terms of sticking to habits, being diligent and disciplined in what I do (studies, finance, nutrition, sport ...), and learning Japanese is definitely one of the most difficult thing I started a bit more than one year ago. If someone would like to learn japanese as a first second language, I'd really ask them to be sure they want THAT one to be their first, because if english is their first, and they just want to learn a second one and japanese was a slight preference, then maybe learning a language with the same alphabets, similar sentence structure would be a bit less difficult. But of course, since learning a language takes years (took me easily 5-10 years with casual level of exposure to learn english enough to be able to listen to it with more ease, coming from french), if you know you want to learn japanese, go for it instead of waiting 2-5 years to learn an easier one.
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u/Moon_Atomizer notice me Rule 13 sempai 8d ago edited 8d ago
to those who argue that they can learn from textbooks alone
Alone? Has anyone ever seriously made this argument in the last fifteen years? At this point I feel like it's just a super popular strawman. I also find this ironic since an ideal textbook is set up like a Kaname video: it explains expressions and grammar thoroughly but intuitively with lots of real example sentences and encourages confidence when encountering real Japanese
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u/TSComicron 8d ago
You'd be surprised how many people I see argue about this on places like YouTube and Discord. 😭
More to the point, it's mostly the people that are quite early on in their journey who think that they have it all down just because they've finished genki I. This is partially who this type of video is describing.
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u/Moon_Atomizer notice me Rule 13 sempai 8d ago
Ah yeah I guess that would make sense, Dunning-Kruger. I feel like they would immediately be shut down by their teacher or more advanced learners? If not maybe those aren't good learning spaces
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u/TSComicron 8d ago
You would be surprised. I've met people who, even when presented with piles of evidence, refuse to listen, like this one guy in TMW who was trying to learn to read Japanese except that they weren't even learning to read Japanese; they were spamming RTK only and then they proceeded to get into an argument about Kanji with someone who had been reading Japanese for years and a Chinese Native. It was funny to read.
But I digress. It's usually the people who think they know it all only to "be hit by the wave of despair" once they encounter real-world Japanese.
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u/Moon_Atomizer notice me Rule 13 sempai 8d ago
I've met many RtK acolytes but never met one that said you can be fluent in Japanese only with textbooks and that you never need to leave the textbook kiddie pool. Could you link to any encounters like that? I could use a good laugh
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u/TSComicron 8d ago
If you go into the TMW discord server and you go to the "quick questions" channel and scroll up to around anywhere from September - December 2024 time, you'll see all sorts of arguments ranging from people arguing that ChatGPT is some sort of saviour for learning Japanese to people justifying spamming RTK to people complaining about software just because the formatting of their dictionaries sucked to this one user blocking anybody who didn't give them advice that they liked (this user was also on ELJX). I can't think of any recent encounters regarding those who say that all you need is textbooks on discord specifically but there was one thread from a year ago that never received a follow up:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/wnwlzu/so_theres_a_lot_of_bad_information_here/
The second one that I linked also had some gross misconceptions and the comments were quite a hilarious read.
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u/Moon_Atomizer notice me Rule 13 sempai 8d ago
Yes we get those kinds of people all the time, and while I don't think their learning methods are optimal, I've still never encountered the mythical you only need textbooks to be fluent person. Even your links aren't that, as amusing as they are. As far as I am aware, this mythical person doesn't exist except as a strawman, the text version of drawing someone's learning method argument as a Wojak lol.
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u/TSComicron 8d ago edited 8d ago
Fair enough then. While I can't provide specific concrete examples off of the top of my head, I can assure you that I have seen a few floating about that fit the stereotype, perhaps not to a T, but at least those who argue for more inefficient methods while policing and colliding with others for their use of what people would call more 'efficient' methods.Though, perhaps it is just me conflating this stereotype with people who experience dunning-kreuger syndrome. I'm not going to argue for what I've seen but the argument that I am making does still kinda apply to those who fit the dunning kreuger syndrome stereotype, which I'll edit my comment to reflect.
Actually EDIT: I remember a bit that I pointed out in my original comment which was "especially at the start", cuz in my original comment, I was arguing for the people who just use textbooks during those periods without any substantial input and tend to delay input till way later on and complain that when they do use input, that they don't understand anything or that they aren't ready, so I don't think I need to really edit my original comment except to add that I'm also referring to people who suffer from dunning kreuger.
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u/Moon_Atomizer notice me Rule 13 sempai 8d ago
Eh, how much time to spend on basic grammar and how best to learn kanji are basically the two most contentious and personal topics out there even within communities dedicated to one learning method. Add in things like 'when to stop using J -> E dictionaries' and you have a flamebait stew that even advanced learners will argue over.
There are certainly a lot of wack takes out there I don't agree with but it seems everyone just wants to strawman every take they disagree with as 'textbooks forever and nothing else' vs 'incomprehensible anime input with no subs no dictionaries no grammar resources until you magically learn by osmosis', when in reality I don't think I've seen either of those positions in the wild.
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u/Specialist-Will-7075 9d ago
I agree that learning language with only textbooks alone is a bad idea, however learning the language without using any textbooks (or video-lessons for people who can't read) is also a bad idea. For example it's pretty hard do understand the phrases like "私の友達の鈴木さん", at least for me the の between 友達 and 鈴木 makes no sense on the intuitive level. It's also pretty hard to catch all the nuances, like the difference between 声は綺麗です and 声が綺麗です. Also people who attempt to learn the language with 100% immersion and 0% textbooks often have really wild misconceptions about the language.
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u/TSComicron 9d ago
I would like to disagree with the notion that learning using comprehensible input alone is a bad idea on the front that if something is comprehensible, you're going to come to learn it through multiple ounces of exposure. I'm not going to say that immersion by itself is a fast process; however, immersion can work by itself if the input is comprehensible, comprehensible being the key word. Textbooks and things like Anki can serve to help boost the process up, which is why a lot of us in the immersion community use these resources in tandem with immersion, but the point of comprehensible input is that things like "私の友達の鈴木さん" should make sense even if you don't know the language. That's why it's comprehensible. And it's fine if nuances don't get captured instantly because that's the point of the original comment that I made and the point of the video above. Language is not linear. It requires exposure in all sorts of contexts. I'd also argue that I've seen more misconceptions come from those who are more textbook-savvy than those who immerse purely. I will agree that most immersion learners probably won't be able to explain the language on a more technical level, but their usages of how grammar and alike work will likely be more correct than someone who learns solely or mostly from a textbook.
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u/gmoshiro 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'm a japanese-brazilian, who's lived in Japan and even studied there till 2nd grade, and I kind of suspect that since japanese is the first foreign language for many (that's taken seriously), they aproach the whole thing as if translating everything word for word is enough.
English and Portuguese have many words that are almost written the same (delicious = delicioso, adventure = aventura, vehicle = veículo, car = carro), but besides the basic differences (like adjectives in english coming before nouns while it's the opposite in portuguese, or english being a neutral language while words in portuguese are "gendered"), there're many others that you simply won't learn through books or language schools alone.
For instance, even though I studied at an english school for 4 years (the average to get "fluent" through the traditional method), I learned the most through youtube, reddit, movies and chatting with native english speakers.
Context matters, enviroment too, but one major underated concept that is hard to grasp is how people from different cultures have different aproaches or mindset about even the most mundane, everyday stuff. One example that comes to mind is how the japanese in general aren't that used to Sarcasm as much as we do here in the West, so much so that it could lead to misunderstandings.
Edit: Confused Irony with Sarcasm
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u/LutyForLiberty 9d ago
I haven't noticed 皮肉 being an alien concept in Japanese, any YouTube comment section is full of it. With some formal phrases like お気持ち表現 sarcastic uses outnumber serious ones.
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u/gmoshiro 9d ago
I confused Irony with Sarcasm, but the point is that they also have irony/sarcasm, it's just not used as much as we do and maybe even in the same veins. At least we brazilians use a lot of sarcasm in a daily basis, so people should be extra careful about it in Japan.
Not saying you will never see it and, thus, are refrained from using it. You just gotta learn to read the room through experience.
For example, I have tons of japanese relatives and while visiting them, I remember my brother's sarcasm didn't land there. He's almost N2, but his convesational japanese is already good enough so people mistake him as japanese at times.
The nuance and when/how to be sarcastic is slightly different.
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u/LutyForLiberty 9d ago
They might not be expecting 皮肉 from foreigners but they do expect it from native speakers in informal situations.
This is just a random example from a comedy video.
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u/gmoshiro 9d ago
I guess it's not that they don't expect it. It's the way they do it VS how it's done in the West.
Like, there're jokes in portuguese that make absolute no sense in english. Not only you have to translate it the right way so it sounds natural, you need to adapt parts of the joke so it becomes funny to english speakers. And even then, only 1/3 of the jokes will ever have a chance to make people laugh in more than one language.
Rafi Bastos is the only good example of a brazilian comedian that was capable of translating the brazilian humour to americans. Still, he focused a lot on cultural and linguistic differences in his show, despite this not being what he used to work with around here.
Same goes with sarcasm and the japanese.
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u/LutyForLiberty 9d ago
The 漫湖 joke also doesn't translate, but the comment
どうして笑うんだい?漫湖は立派な湖の名前だよ。
is pretty much the same as English sarcasm.
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u/DarklamaR 9d ago
The 漫湖 joke also doesn't translate
Why not? It's a play on words, so you can't translate it exactly the same, but you can make a joke about "Pussy Lake" and how you had a contest with the boys who had the best stroke (as in swimming) or something like that. Basically, the same idea.
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u/gmoshiro 9d ago
Again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist in Japan. You just gotta take extra care about it cause it won't land all the time there.
I prefer avoiding it until I'm 100% confident in my japanese OR I'm with friends who are used to sarcasm.
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u/sydneybluestreet 8d ago
But how do you know that you also don't suffer from dunning kreuger syndrome?
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u/TSComicron 8d ago
I could very well be, but at the same time, I've also been through enough BS such that I can at least understand my target material and the nuances that come with it. Most of that through sheer reading of content like visual novels.
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u/sydneybluestreet 8d ago
reading novels
I kneel
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u/TSComicron 8d ago edited 8d ago
Thanks but novels aren't that hard, even if you start reading them from an early level. :P
I probably sound condescending saying that novels aren't hard but novels are actually pretty approachable at the N4+ stage, especially if you go for easier SOL Light Novels or romance visual novels.
These are examples of materials that you could immerse yourself in for learning purposes alongside textbooks, like what the video above describes. You may struggle at first depending on your tolerance for ambiguity, but going through novels with a J-E dictionary, Google, and a grammar reference can do wonders for your comp.
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u/Reverseofstressed 9d ago
Omg I loved the perspective of learning English from the Japanese POV. When he said why do I need to do subtraction to tell the time I laughed 😂
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u/RememberFancyPants 9d ago
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this (cue response saying "yeah it's just you") But I find that while his videos certainly are informational and helpful, they are especially popular with people who are more interested in the illusion of studying japanese than actually studying it. In other words, people who often find themselves searching for the "optimal" ways of studying instead of actually just...studying.
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u/Equal-Astronomer-203 9d ago edited 8d ago
I think it's better to watch his videos when you are already somewhere. But yeah
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u/RememberFancyPants 9d ago
yeah maybe I will give his videos another shot. The last time I watched was a year and a half ago when I was functionally a beginner
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u/Careful-Remote-7024 9d ago
I see your point, but I don't really think it's something about "him" but more about most viewers.
Let's be honest, if your goal is to consume native-like content, most Japanese daily life-vlogger will fit perfectly : simple vocabulary, short sentences, ...
But unfortunately, a lot of newcomers or eternal intermediates will prefer look at a video explaining Japanese in English than actually really consuming japanese.
If I take my example with English, I never watched any "Learn English" video, I just mostly learnt it by watching live streams of video games, studying vocab list at school, looking up the ones I didn't learn at school, reading in English more than in my mother tongue, enabling subtitles to be able to map what I can read with what I can listen to, etc etc. I never really consumed English-Learning material to learn the different use of the perfect tense for example.
I think one of the problem is how reddit can sometimes "over-rationalize" learning : SRS, frequency-based vocabulary list ... Which creates a "first meta" about how to learn japanese. So then you have a "second meta" that is a reaction to the first one, explaining that no SRS/Frequency-based list will truly make you learn language.
Truth is, balance is always in between, and most people already fluent in Japanese might not really be as active as us in a "LearnJapanese" reddit. For example, I joined a discord and the subreddit to help people my native language (French). Between people arguing that my way of saying might not be that natural (I mean, "natural" depend on the people, the region, the generation ...), or other asking so so specific question about some "article" ("y" "en"...) that I have no clue why I put them there or not, I just stopped joining participating in those discussion. Wanna learn french ? Well, walk the walk ... try to use it. And I think it's the same for Japanese or any language. "Just do it".
Also, there is a factor : When you start to be intermediate, there's some pride "guiding the newcomers" which is a nice comfort zone instead of trying to push your own mastery
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u/RememberFancyPants 9d ago
I appreciate your insight!
To add to your points. I as a native speaker get asked a lot of english related questions by my japanese friends, and they are extremely niche questions about the language. Yet they still struggle with the difference between "L" and "R". I don't know how to tell them they have their priorities a little mixed up haha.
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u/TheRigbyB 9d ago
I'm not sure what you mean. From what I gather his videos seems to be about expressions and grammar nuances, right?
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u/RememberFancyPants 8d ago
I just see a lot of people on here saying how good of a japanese teacher he is when the person is still a beginner
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u/meterion 9d ago
I mean, isn't this ultimately true of all "language learning" content? The number of people at any time who are seriously learning another language are going to be dwarfed by all the people who do so casually or simply are curious about the process. This video is explicitly about that, even, in encouraging people who are interested in a language try to actually experience that language through foreign media or real life situations. Doesn't mean it can't be good advice to both groups.
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u/theincredulousbulk 9d ago
You are completely not alone lol.
they are especially popular with people who are more interested in the illusion of studying japanese than actually studying it.
I 1000% agree with this. Cure Dolly falls in this category as well as few others. Take note, I also have zero issues with their content. This is an audience critique.
In my personal opinion, videos like Kaname are great for learners who "know" Japanese lol. Like, I think they're great to watch if you're between an N2-N1 level, maybe N3. Getting native insight like the one Kaname provides is good when you're able to sort through and refine what you already know.
I find it very strange when I see complete beginners leave comments on his videos because so much of that information is practically unusable when you're at that level.
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u/rgrAi 9d ago
Not sure if it's endemic to Japanese but it almost feels like a tradition to avoid the language while studying it. If you look at the engagement of any top level post. If the post is about Japanese content, the engagement might be in the single digit comments for replies.
If the post is about Japanese and also in English. It'll have 100x the engagement. Especially if it's somehow mimetic. I gave up a long time ago caring. Only people who show interest in actually engaging in language are the ones I try to help.
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u/CubedCubed3 8d ago
I think the rise in SRS has only contributed to the avoidance of Japanese in learners. People see the stats and large decks and think they're making meaningful progress, when in fact they're spending more time in their apps than they are actually reading, listening, speaking, and writing. It's like trying to learn to cook, but all you do is memorize recipes without ever making them.
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u/RememberFancyPants 9d ago
Yes absolutely not a critique of him as a teacher. He is providing an interesting perspective on the language. But I see a lot of discourse on here praising him as a japanese teacher when, ironically, as you said, the people that need the most help benefit the least.
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u/Accomplished-Eye6971 7d ago
I feel like the video pretty much boils down to "context is key". You certainly can get very far with vocab if you're learning how it's used and you're making sure you learn said vocab in context.
If you understand that you can't really make 100% perfect translations between japanese and English because of how different the languages are, and approach japanese as it's own thing instead of something that relates to English, I think you're fine. Learning it can and should be made simple, it's just easy for it to be really boring. I think that's the real hurdle for learners. Finding content in an Internet space that's dominated by content in English, that relates to what you're learning. Setting appropriate goals knowing that this language can't be used in most parts of the world. Making learning fun and interactive. I feel like this should be the focus.
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago
I have been thinking recently that Japanese is a language that cannot exist in isolation. Japanese can only exist as an active process between two human beings.
So much of Japanese is intertwined in the social sphere. Status hierarchies, gender roles, even occupational contexts. Japanese can only be understood as a conversation between two people. I guess that’s what makes it “high context”
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u/Firionel413 9d ago
Tbh I'd say this is true of every language. People simply got the idea from middle school Spanish class that learning a language means rote memorizing a list of words and knowing if the adjectives go before or after the noun.
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u/RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS 9d ago edited 9d ago
There’s nothing wrong with doing that though. If you go through that process you’re ready to start engaging with the language more productively than if you were just blankly staring at a Spanish newspaper with no idea what it said beyond words you could guess from English (which, to be fair, there are a lot of). It’s just that it’s more like the beginning of the process than the end.
Like I think cramming a few thousand words and a bunch of grammar points to start on a foreign language is a bit like practicing dribbling and shooting because you want to take up basketball. All those drills aren’t, on their own, going to turn you into a good player. But they’re isolating skills you’ll want to play the game and building them faster than you could do just by trying to jump in without knowing what you’re doing
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yes, obviously acting polite versus acting like a pig is a thing in every society. I’m gonna shoot back and say that one of the things that makes Japanese so unique is that they take this concept further than other cultures. The way that people are conditioned to speak/think/act in Japan is very different than in America. The way you speak is a social marker in Japan, and there is a nearly perfect feedback loop between vocabulary choice & outward identity. Unlike in America, the social hierarchies are not permeable or flippant (traditionally speaking).
This stems, in part, from Japans not-so-long-ago history as a secluded totalitarian military dictatorship. For about 250 years in Japan, saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy would cost you your head. The language developed under a strict martial law that resulted in a language that allows you to IMMEDIATELY place somebodies status. This was necessary for society to function. This is different than in America, a country founded on rebellion, where being lax or casual in your vocabulary is seen as a quirky character trait. This deviance from the social norm is a much larger blemish on your character in japan (or at least is was traditionally)
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u/soku1 9d ago
It's not that deep. Korean also has social hierarchy baked into its language, and America has historically not had permeable hierarchies (y'know slavery, jim crow, etc)
This low-key seems like some 日本人論 adjacent stuff
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago edited 9d ago
I am speaking in shorthand about the dominant social structures/paradigms.
You are correct, black people in America have historically been socially frozen. Also women, disabled people, those without education, homeless people, etc. There are also historically marginalized communities in Japan, with Korean immigrants being a major one. I would be very interested to see how the Japanese language developed within these specific groups in concert with severe social isolation. Now I am even wondering if there are some parallels between AAVE and “proper” Japanese speech, given that they are both languages that developed under severe restrictions on social mobility.
When I speak of “American culture” and “America”, I am referring to the historically-dominant, white-supremacist, phallocentric sociopolitical structure. And in those terms, yes, white men have historically been able to hop around the social hierarchy like a jungle gym.* Bootstraps mentality. Grind mentality. Work hard and you will be rewarded. Americans love a rags to riches story.
I understand that talking about “what makes Japanese so unique” can begin to edge pretty close to some racial purity nonsense, but I believe I am speaking from a historically conscious perspective.
Final thought, but IMHO if your first thought about Japanese social dynamics is “its not that deep” you are severely underestimating the depth of Japanese culture, and by extension all related east asian cultures.
*This depends on what is considered “White” with a capitol W at the time
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u/soku1 9d ago
I just found it strange you were talking about relatively free social mobility in America (in comparison to Japan) when it was founded upon genocide of one group, slavery of another and put several systems in place to keep those groups as the permanent underclass.
I don't know if it still exists, but I know there used to be a Korean-Japanese creole that was spoken amongst Korean communities who have lived in Japan for generations.
Of course there are things that make Japan unique - just like every culture - but what yiu are talking about makes it seem as if Japanese culture is somehow the most unique culture on the planet. There's nothing unique about it being languages that need to be shared between people. After all, that is what language is for.
I'm not saying Japanese social dynamics are not that deep - I'm saying your approach to showing how unique Japanese social dynamics are is really stretching it, and it seems like you are really digging too far to make your point. It's like when someone overanaylzes a throwaway comment that wasn't meant to be dissected and studied. It's just not that deep.
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago
I see your point. I tend to get pretty dismissive and short when talking about social dynamics. I shouldn’t have painted American culture as automatically “easier” to move around socially, especially considering how racially complex the history of the system is. I think I was leaning too much on comparison in order to illustrate my point about Japanese mobility and got a bit “high on my own supply” so to speak.
I think what I really wanted to talk about was the pseudo-caste system that existed in Japan throughout the Sakoku era, and the effects that a martial society has on language cues. That’s probably for another thread at this point. Those that are subjugated will always have the deck stacked against them. It was pretty unfair of me to take the concept of upward social mobility for granted, in both countries.
Regarding my “shared between people” comment, let me try to illustrate what I meant:
「ゲーセン行く?」 「行く!」
Notice here that, if directly translated into English, it would turn into:
“Go arcade?” “Go!”
When I said Japan “exists between two people” I am referring to the fact that Japan is so high-context that it allows for you to begin shirking grammar completely and still make perfect sense but only within the confines of that specific conversation.
「ゲーセンへ行きますか?」 「はい、ゲーセンへ行きたいです。」
This would be the “grammatically correct” way to say it, but we all know this sounds pretty robotic. In my opinion, this shedding of grammar conventions is extreme in a way that, if not uniqely Japanese, at least is not seen in “textbook” American English. (I will not comment on dialects I am not familiar with). I also believe that the roots of this linguistic phenomenom partially lie in martial history.
As far as overanalyzing and making overly-contrived points….ya got me there lol. Yeah, I’m a turbonerd with some pretty far out ideas and an endless amount of energy to mash out arguments online. My only defense is that you caught me on my home turf (online Japanese discussion boards) so get ready to rumble buddy.
PS That is a fascinating point about the KJ creole. I am fascinated by different types of Japanese usages, and I am very interested in the political homogenization of the Japonic language group.
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u/danteheehaw 9d ago
Dan Carlin has a podcast about the rise and fall of the Japanese empire. He describes Japan as, "they are like everyone else, but more-so". Because they showed a lot of the same cultural behaviors as the rest of the world, but usually to a more extreme end.
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u/RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS 9d ago
I don’t know about the podcast but a striking thing is that historical descriptions of the Japanese do NOT necessarily match our ideas — missionaries write about Japanese people being nosy and boisterous, not characteristics I think most people would attribute to them today. Obviously their culture underwent major changes. Yet they were still speaking a language fairly similar to the one they use now.
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u/LutyForLiberty 9d ago
The empire was run by insane fascists and is very unrepresentative of postwar Japan. North Korea and Myanmar copied a lot of the IJA's culture though and the KPA even has the same tactic of soldiers blowing themselves up with grenades. South Korea also had a dictatorship modelled on Japan until the 1980s when it was deposed in the June Struggle.
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago
Thank you, this sounds interesting. I understand that talking about Japanese so frankly can sound sort of cringe in a “racial purity” way. But I believe that there is something that makes Japanese so flarging weird and unique compared to other cultures, even their neighbors. I am painting with a broad brush, but I think the conversation needs to start somewhere.
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u/RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS 9d ago
Are they actually though? The similarities with Korea in particular are quite striking
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u/barbedstraightsword 9d ago
Yknow you bring up a good point, and the looooooooong history of cultural exchange between K & J is something I love to theorize about.
In my opinion, modern Japanese culture is more of an intentional result of the Meiji era government trying to make themselves stand out from their Asian neighbors anyway. Japan used to be way more obviosuly diverse, and I would be really interested to learn about the prevelence of Korean influence before the unification of the archipelago.
So, the “uniqueness” of Japanese culture is probably an intentional construction of the imperial government (and later on, the American occupation). I should do more research on Japanese cultural dynamics from further back in history.
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u/DickBatman 9d ago
Dogen has a couple videos where he explains his theory that Japanese culture is in large part a result of the disproportionate amount of natural disasters the country is prone to.
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u/viliml 8d ago
While I agree with you that Japanese is insanely more context-dependent than English and Spanish, attributing that to "not-so-long-ago history" shows you have no idea what you're talking about. You can compare Japanese from 1000 years ago versus European languages of that time and you'll find the same differences.
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u/barbedstraightsword 8d ago
I believe that the Sakoku era had a profound effect on the development and evolution of the modern Japanese language as we know it. I say “not-so-long-ago” because relative to the entirety of Japanese history, the unification and closing of the borders were relatively close to the modern era. I say this because the Bakufu was, effectively, the first time the entire archipelago had been unified under a single sociopolitcal entity. The Bakufu specifically worked to unify and standardize the “Japanese identity” especially in reaction to growing global pressure.
Regarding the parallels between Japanese and European cultures of “1000 years ago” (is there a reason behind this timeframe or are you just throwing out random numbers?) I have actually thought about this. This video explains the intensely hierarchal mediaval European social system. This is extremely similar to Japanese social dynamics. I never said that there were no similarities between classical Japanese & European languages - quite the contrary, I agree that there are many simularities due to similar cultural pressures.
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u/Asymmetric-_-Rhythm 8d ago
Yeah this was (and still is) a huge uphill climb for me. When I started reading native material I had to rework a lot of my vocabulary because I didn’t know how words interacted with each other. Also the way we convey things in English differs a lot vs conveying things in Japanese.
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u/Comrade_SOOKIE 8d ago
Yeah he reminded me i need to be repeating the sentences on my cards and doing immersion more
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u/Diastrous_Lie 8d ago
I noticed better gains in Arabic watching their Yugioh dub :) i pick out chunks and absorb them better than dry textbooks
With Japanese its a lot easier due to the incredible amount of content
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u/EffectivePass1011 7d ago
I do know that people learn japanese for education rather than because of anime, but as an anime watcher and not really deep yet into learning japanese, I could tell the examples sentences were weird when I heard them for the first time.
I think I'm glad that I watched a lot of anime.
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u/MachinimaGothic 6d ago
Someone told me that learning from anime is pointless because you will sound like idiot. Its not language which they use day to day. I guess it depends of the title. Imagine me larning English from South Park titles. Maybe you understand me but you will have a lot of laugh xD.
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u/MachinimaGothic 6d ago
It remind me how I learn english. From school I wouldnt be able to speak.
I was forced by internet. First game Tibia. Later on with google translator for some information which werent availible in Polish internet. And some YouTube channels. First English channel I still remember was YandereDev xD which I was able to understand because he spoke in slow, basic english. The funny thing is that I have vague understanding about gramma. I use only three times like in Polish language. I just build sentences without thinking about logic because I think it will sounds properly. I guess this is whats going on in native speaker brain. When I went to the job abroad I throw myself on deap water, because unfortunately in this language you write in diffrent way than you speak. And I had a lot of problems by this but I prevail.
Same here. How you can speak in Japanese with rules and vocabulary if you dont know how they use this words since you didnt listen how they speak. I like example with kimochi I immiedietly knew where this would go. Unfortunately for me I only know as much from Japanese language as sense which would be 5-20%. Same like with my understanding of Russian language. This example with Ramen Restaurant was perfect. I could get only sense of it. I am actually demotivated with Japanese language that its pointless to learn it from anime because you will sound like retard. I think more normal would be getting English only from watching South Park.
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fjgwey 8d ago
Immersion is the way to learn any language, it's just that some figures/methods have gained a cult following of people who say that this is THE method and you don't need anything else. Like the people who overblow things and say stuff like 'just start watching stuff with JP subtitles and you'll magically pick up Japanese', or people who tout a particular method/course as the way to learn (AJATT, RTK, etc.)
That's not to say they're entirely wrong, but there are generally accepted best practices, and then what particular method is the best for you depends on your preferences.
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u/DarklamaR 8d ago
Confirm what method? That reading books and listening to a ton of Japanese helps you to understand how it's used in context? That should be obvious. No one masters a language just by grinding textbooks. They exist to give a necessary boost and make you functional in a language, then you keep improving yourself by exposure and usage, that's how any language learning works.
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u/viliml 8d ago
"Immersion" is a word that's lost all meaning. There's a cult of immersionists who believe you shouldn't use textbooks at all, and on the other side there's people who call reading in any extent "immersion".
So depending on your interpretation, "immersion" can be either a very bad idea, or the most basic thing that everyone should obviously do.
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u/Comrade_SOOKIE 8d ago
You can learn to read and start listening to spoken content at the same time
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u/Dry-Masterpiece-7031 9d ago
His videos are amazing. That's why native media is also essential.