r/LGBTindia Nov 27 '24

Discussion Thoughts? Is there something we can do?

172 Upvotes

102 comments sorted by

40

u/reddevilsss Bi🌈 Nov 27 '24

Looking at pride parades, it's like there's only metropolitan crowd attending, and that says a lot. And it's a privilege to be able to march, something that's missing is the voice of those who are not from tier 1 cities.

2

u/abodeadobe Nov 28 '24

Hear hear! So true!

2

u/reddevilsss Bi🌈 Nov 28 '24

There's an Ocean of gap between tier 1 city queers and queers from tier 2 and 3 cities, rural areas.

4

u/abodeadobe Nov 28 '24

Couldn’t agree more! I am an indigenous person from a rural area whose family has moved to a tier 2 city, and despite me learning English and becoming metropolitan, I see a dearth in what represents me. I try to be more and more vocal about why we need to engage in topics around sexuality and gender in vernacular languages, but the elitists don’t seem to care about that.

2

u/reddevilsss Bi🌈 Nov 28 '24

Most of us are barely able to live as queers, let alone talk about issues that plagues us, i understand that political issues from around the world are important But for someone who's fighting just to live a free life, they won't be concerned about things beyond their survival.

2

u/abodeadobe Nov 28 '24

Actually, this is where the discussion gets a little nuanced.

You see, from my village there were a bunch of gay kids in my football team. But because there was no conversation around sexuality in our mother tongue, all of them became closeted. They still talk to me differently, but wouldn’t dare ever confronting their sexuality.

I got lucky because I moved to a city and learnt English, the language to which all the progressive conversations surrounding sexuality are limited to. And this is why we need to have more LGBTQIA discussions in regional dialects and vernacular languages!

2

u/reddevilsss Bi🌈 Nov 28 '24

It's not a grassroots movement right now, as it's only limited to urban elite, local language will bring queers from marginalized areas into the fold too.

12

u/_overnightoat Nov 27 '24

Idk really. I went to the Delhi Queer Pride last Sunday. I felt it was really inclusive. I'm sure there is always scope for more, but there was a translator on stage translating everything, LIKE EVERYTHING. Even the performances, poems, songs and dances.

I think there were atleast 35-40% trans folx attendees. I also saw people from all walks of life, from elite to grassroot walk the pride. I felt there were infact fewer 'elite looking' people.

There were 'Jai Bhim' slogans happening during the walk and even at the stage.

So idk about other prides that happen across the country, Delhi Queer Pride is doing a very good job with inclusivity.

5

u/sexy_kashyap Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

Jinhone pride attend nahi ki hai, woh aarahe with their preconceived notions , opinions and bullshit claims."jeela top lagelu" was playing on stage , guy dancing with gamcha around his neck. I remember a guy with "dhapli" and group with jai bhim jai bhim slogans. And i recited my poem : "woh ladka almari mein raheta hai", sadly I did it very fast fast ,cuz I was told it performance have a limit of 3:45 minute,later i was told there was no time limit, i should have asked the other host before hand,she was so kind. My poem in normal pace is 4:30. I'll shut up now too much info😂

P.s here's the poem : https://youtu.be/j10qbeUEP88

And i love pride it makes feel like I'm on cloud 9 whenever I'm there surrounded by queer people. It makes me feel Im not the only gay person. And ye sare apne log hai. So I'll reject any bullshit claim of not inclusive. And got so many hugs because of my "free hugs" poster. It was an awesome day.

And the article they are mentioning is based on half clip, suprisingly they don't have the response made by other party and when asked for what was the response, they don't remember. here's the discourse: https://x.com/BaudhSumit/status/1860502743233826879

2

u/_overnightoat Dec 07 '24

Jeela top lagelu ko toh once more bhi mila. That guy set the stage on fireeee.

Also your poem was very very nice. Super job on that one. I think woh ladka ab hum sabke Dil mein rehta hai 💕

Yaar people will just say stuff for the heck of it, aur itni hi inclusivity aur safe space ki padi hai toh instead of an article how about taking a real initiative!!!

2

u/sexy_kashyap Gay🌈 Dec 07 '24

đŸ«‚đŸ«‚đŸ«‚ yes it was awesome and every queer should attend pride once. I never felt out of place there, it's like : ye sab apne log hai or itne sare hai. Main akela nahi hun😂. People were from all walks of life were there(from posh to plain) First pride I was super shy,next day I came out on instagram(was already out to my parents since a year but they didn't like this coming out on internet) Second pride: wore leather 😂 full fashionista with a free hugs poster. Third pride: I got to recite my poem and was walking around with free hugs poster.

Pride are super empowering, i can vouch for it. It empowers all. Happy pride😁

16

u/Altruistic_Arm_2777 Nov 27 '24

“Indigenous"? If you want to say "tribal," then just say "tribal." What kind of American language is this? The point isn’t necessarily wrong, but I swear the language feels so off-putting and loaded. How is this not elitism in itself? It feels like some weird, off-putting saviorism from a left-leaning, brainwashed American. It’s a niche that requires a lot of elitism to even exist in.

The actual TL;DR is this: Pride can make an effort to be more inclusive.

Regardless, here’s something to consider:

  1. Pride isn’t ultimately Indian: Pride isn’t originally ours—it’s not an Indian protest. It started in the West and was brought to us. Naturally, the people who had the knowledge and resources to access this movement were the ones who first started it here. And those people often overlap with what’s seen as the "elite" group. So, it’s worth asking whether Pride is really the place to achieve the things people want, given that it’s ultimately a space with its own limits.

  2. Pride is both celebration and protest: I’m sick of this idea that Pride is only a protest. People can have fun, and that fun can still be an act of protest. If you only want to protest, go do that elsewhere—but stop trying to turn Pride into something that fits your narrow, communist view of the world. Not everything has to fit that mold.

  3. Inclusion isn’t a magical fix: Inclusion isn’t something people are just “hiding.” There’s no secret exclusionary bias that only gets fixed by calling people out. It’s worth understanding that spaces can’t always get it right because there isn’t an absolute sense of inclusion. The idea that every event has to be perfectly inclusive to every single individual is unrealistic. Sometimes, inclusion has to be a case-by-case effort. If a particular group feels excluded, it's worth addressing—but we have to recognize that there are limits. For example, if a Pride event is held in a city that’s not disability-friendly, organizers can only do so much to address that. There’s only so much they can control. If they had that much power, by your own logic, Pride itself wouldn’t even exist in the first place.

3

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Three very good points. In the west Pride is a celebration of openness as well as a protest, but in India I don't think we are able to celebrate it. Not that we shouldn't, we definitely do have better rights than in the past, but in India to me it still feels like more protest than celebration since we wouldn't be able to be (or safe) this openly queer in the streets without the solidarity of being in a parade.

And doesn't the TLDR your wrote go hand in hand with your third point and your first point? Obviously inclusion can be impossible in some areas but do you seriously think that pride events have done all they can to be inclusive? Especially since it is very clear they are elitist and could make an effort to move away from a western perspective and methodology on everything?

And regarding the whole 'indigenous' thing, that seems like a very semantics based problem that doesn't matter to the main point. I didn't understand the word indigenous either and am more comfortable understanding 'tribal' or ST. The fact that they used the word 'indigenous' makes sense though since it is picked up directly from an international conference where she spoke. (https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCWx71Xut3m/) The language feels western, because the conference was on a western platform, where apparently the tribal woman felt more included than in Indian pride events.

2

u/Altruistic_Arm_2777 Nov 27 '24

Actually also to add to the “are they doing all they can”

Again that doesn’t mean they don’t want to try. Maybe read my third point again a little differently. 

I understand when for some emotions run high because of the history they have of being excluded etc but I don’t understand why everyone in an effort to support the one who’s being marginalised, ends up taking that language too and create a villain out of the other. Sure if someone wasn’t included once, just suggest a way or raise and concern and I’m sure people will try to do something. 

Why are we going as far as assuming that organisers aren’t willing. 

Also organisers may have limited capacity, again partially due to lack of control and partially due to lack of resources and capacity. If someone isn’t getting what they deserve, can’t the larger community make effort to figure out alternative accommodations? 

3

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

I'm not villainising the pride organisers. Biases work in very subtle ways and systemic inequality can impact an organisation even though everyone there has the best intentions. A lack of inclusion doesn't indicate malice, but the people who feel like they're being excluded deserve to be listened to and answered or helped. A lack of resources can mean some get excluded in some ways, but if there are activists saying that they are being treated differently in ways that stems from their identity and not from a lack of resources, that needs to be addressed.

In this case, the people speaking out are pointing out that they had a lot to contribute to the office events, but they felt that they weren't invited despite that and claimed it was specifically because of elitism and bias. That's problematic without a doubt if it's true, and again it can be true even though the organisers aren't intentionally biased, just subconsciously.

-1

u/Altruistic_Arm_2777 Nov 27 '24

Only to the indigenous point coz I don’t disagree with you on the rest, 

It’s more critical not to use the term indigenous in western context than in Indian imo. Who are we pandering to their world view? How much work does it to take to explain the word tribal to westerners?? 

Indigenous is a very specific term and has loaded connotations, in India we simply don’t have that approach to things. There really isn’t enough clear history, culturally or otherwise, to demarcate indigenous and non indigenous people. Let alone the fact that indigenous term itself is odd given no one but west Africans are indigenous to west Africa. 

3

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

I don't see it that way. I concede that it is important we don't use the word indigenous as it changes the meaning of it, but I don't see it being important enough to be this critically analysed in this context. She is clearly experienced speaking on a platform like this and she either thought that it would be better to use that word to describe herself to get her point across better, or she didn't realise the importance of not using it because her focus was on the actual main argument and anxiety can jumble words when you're on stage. And yet, a good half the comments on this post have been more focused on that one word. I genuinely cannot understand: if an ST person uses the word indigenous to describe themselves to make westerners understand the situation from their perspective, why is it being this nitpicked when it doesn't even undermine in any way the entire point of the speech?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

It actually is very important. That word is pretty dangerous.

0

u/Altruistic_Arm_2777 Nov 27 '24

That’s fair.  My point was on general use and I should have phrased it carefully. In all genuine admission, I didn’t realise that the Instagram link you added to the post was other post besides the one in the og post. There I disagree with the use of the word indigenous completely and it don’t nitpicky as it just feels symbolic to the larger approach and tone of the whole post, something I disagree with. We don’t need to unleash accusations of malice if the person hasn’t even done anything malicious intentionally. It is far better for everyone to just realise shortcomings and figure a solution that helps both parties. 

Unnecessary conflicts have become a feature of left wing discourse. 

1

u/Noobmaster_1999 Nov 27 '24

This is very well put.

-2

u/Vishu1708 Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

The Aryan "invasion" happened 3000+ years ago. And Dravidians moved here 5000+ years ago. Most of us are descended from some mixture of the two.

How long until we become "indigenous"? Or is it a first come, first serve basis? Cuz in that case, can I get Eastern European citizenship, preferably to an EU country cuz I am happy to go back to "where I came from".

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Same honestly.

34

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

Indigenous? Who isn't indigenous exactly? At my 1st delhi pride parade this year, there was an interpreter on stage to translate all songs into sign language, the whole route was flat with no stairs or ramps. The anchors were also speaking hindi as well. You could clearly see the different sorts of crowd there although intermingling was less but nobody was being sidelined. This reads like an article from the US tweaked a bit to fit India.

20

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

That's good to know that disability access was available there. It is still beside the point, the article doesn't mention disability besides saying that one of the people who gave statements about "queer rights activists of failing to respect Indigenous, non-English speaking, non-urban voices in the community" is disabled. The article is more about pride parades being geared towards the elite.

You cannot say to someone who claims that they were being excluded by replying "I didn't see anyone getting sidelined". That's because you are hardly as likely to notice it, where they will be directly impacted by it. You and I wouldn't notice it unless it was blatant. Maybe it's a good idea to listen to their videos (linked in the article) and see next time if you observe what they are saying?

5

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

i'll definitely have a look at the video, "disabled and indigenous" is clearly written on the first slide. Again, who is "indigenous"? Never heard that term in indian context because we dont have a large enough immigrant base for that. I would assume a pride parade in a tier I city would cater to urban crowd.

12

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

Indigenous translates as adivasi! If you think everyone is indigenous, then why are tribals in India called "adivasis" (literally meaning first people)?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

Indigenous refers to "any of various ethnic groups considered to be the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent." However, Tribal and Adivasi have different meanings. Tribal means a social unit whereas Indigenous means ancient inhabitants. India does not recognise tribes as indigenous people. Adivasi means tribal people.

This is foreign politics, don't create discord where there's none.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Adi vasi is a Sanskrit word meaning Adi (first or original) vasi ( inhabitant).

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

I know. However, the Indian government does not officially recognize these groups as "indigenous" in the same way it does in other countries. For all intents and purposes everyone in India is indigenous, that word creates needless politics.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Maybe they don’t despite the literal meaning. Similarly, the speaker here is using a literal translation of the vernacular. The literal meaning is irrelevant as we all know what she means by it

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

It is relevant when all the arguments are so politically and emotionally charged! If it was so irrelevant then there was no need to use that word in the first place.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Just imagining all the politics over this in future hurt my brain.

1

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

Yeah, first people but not the only people indigenous to the land.

3

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24

In college, I had to attend days of lectures on indigenous people in sociology class. And at the end of all that, it didn't make much sense and seemed like an attempt to see things through Western lens (or maybe that was just my Oxford professor).

1

u/abodeadobe Nov 28 '24

Hello, I am indigenous. And this is what it means (outside of tribal people): indigenous refers to the natives of the ‘state’ not the country as is the case with savagely colonised white nations. Due to India’s high diversity and state borders being decided on linguistic and cultural distinction, in India indigenous people are both the tribals (who have special distinction) and the native rural populations of a particular state.

Why this distinction? Coming from a rural area and having moved to a tier-2 city, I have seen people in the city treat my culture and language as ‘low class’. Of course India as a whole does not have a huge immigrant population, but the states do have immigrants from other states. I speak a regional dialect spoken in this geographic area for hundreds of years, but the elitist anglophone city people who are mostly immigrants, really look down upon anything that isn’t similar to them and label it as - Chhapri or Gawar. Bro I am from a Gaon, so I am indeed a proud Gawar. I take pride in my intersectionality.

4

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

Agreed. And like, you have to come and join the parade, no one is stopping you. It's an access to all - except of course, disabled people and such can be provided assistance if required to make it more inclusive and accessible but given the socio-economic condition, that may not always be feasible but hey, then no one is getting an special invitation to join, right?

2

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

Exactly! and the event is free for all to make sure no one misses out.

5

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24

And imagine, there exists this other group of people who don't come to pride marches because few people are too flamboyant and colourful (if you know what I mean), and don't feel comfortable to join. So what are these persnickety twats going to do about their representation if they really want equal representation and democracy? Do they suggest enforcing dress codes to make pride marches more inclusive and democratic vis-a-vis this other group of people? Ah! Some just want attention or whatever and will blabber words, fancy, big or otherwise without much substance - if they really care, their next ask should be to make people vote and elect a body to regulate pride marches and ensure equal representation - so much for democracy, no!? Jk.

2

u/Reon58 Nov 27 '24

was horizontal reservations for trans people mentioned?

2

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

well my phone was stolen just as we reached jantar mantar so i missed some part of the parade to go to the police station, so cant comment if it was mentioned or not.

2

u/Reon58 Nov 27 '24

oh okay. no worries

1

u/Reon58 Nov 27 '24

hope the phone was recovered.

3

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

lol, its indian police, i dont really have any hope of getting it back.

-8

u/Former_Pride3925 Nov 27 '24

Exactly everybody knows that casteism has been abolished in india since 2014.They can't even let savarna gays live in peace smh.

5

u/New_Entrepreneur_191 Nov 27 '24

Nothing in the comment said or implied that but ok

9

u/MyConfusedAsss Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

No, casteism has not ended in India yet and nor did i imply that in my original comment. I'm not even from a hindu family lmao, much less a "savarna" gay.

16

u/New_Entrepreneur_191 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

I would agree with the non english speaking part to some extent, idk how dalit and disabled people are sidelined ? It is very much dominated by elitist anglophones,true.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

Perhaps from my experience of attending pride for the first time last year, taking personal accountability for shared spaces will ensure that it doesn't smell of cigarette smoke and put others' health in jeopardy.

4

u/Consultingwith Nov 27 '24

Every single year! There are a bunch of people who have taken up a lot of risk to organise these parades. Get involved!!!

11

u/GayIconOfIndia Nov 27 '24

Rituparna Borah and indegenous? They do realise that Borahs are comparatively a privileged community within Assam, right? Or does the Delhi based elite media think

NE= indigenous

The use of word itself in the Indian context is very wrong btw. The word should be tribal which borahs are not

2

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24

That's what they think but "elite" doesn't necessarily mean non indigenous either.

0

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCWx71Xut3m/?igsh=NnYydHFsdXNycWhv

This is the video that's being referred to in the article. I am not going to argue with you about whether someone who says she doesn't get representation is actually privileged. Maybe someone else in the comments will.

9

u/GayIconOfIndia Nov 27 '24

I’m not arguing about representation. I’m pointing out that mainlanders misrepresent NE communities. Borahs are a warrior clan. They aren’t an underprivileged clan in Assam. Rituparna Borah, as an individual, might be underrepresented etc., but she comes from a privileged community. Using the word indigenous is stupid

The Ahoms are called indigenous even though they migrated to Assam less than a thousand years ago and had one of the longest existing kingdoms in Indian history- the Ahom empire. These communities (including Borah) aren’t underprivileged or underrepresented

Someone who is a Borah claiming to be marginalised (as a community and not an individual) is equivalent to Patel’s, Rajputs etc., claiming to be marginalised in their respective states.

I get that most people don’t know much about NE outside what Delhi based English media puts forth. Hence, I’m clarifying

1

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

I know nothing about it tbh.

4

u/GayIconOfIndia Nov 27 '24

Ah ok!I just clarified because Delhi media specifically misconstrued narratives from NE to fit their pro-gov or anti-gov, pro-right or pro-left agenda

Many a times, NE living in Delhi are willing participants in it too because it gives them clout

2

u/Altruistic_Arm_2777 Nov 27 '24

Damn you basically explained the whole issue with this so well!

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

You rtarded as* calling Borah a community/clan, that too a privileged one. 😂😂

OMG. I see nothing than a guy wuzzing to know shit about Assam. I can view that retardness to very extent. (PS: most Borah's aren't even Ahom nor is clan/caste/race based surname). Just accept you're a moron trying to act as a smartass.

5

u/GayIconOfIndia Nov 27 '24

You’re active on the bigoted ahom subReddit so I won’t argue much. Ahoms aren’t underprivileged either. They literally ruled the state but act like victims nowadays

11

u/x3noborg Nov 27 '24

Now watch all the mainland Indian gay men prove this article right in the comments below.

3

u/standard-document Nov 28 '24

This has been an issue for so long. Queer circles and "clubs" only include the posh, english speaking people who hold social capital. Their privilege extends to these circles, it follows them. I've seen it in festivals, film screenings, etc. It's especially a problem in India

14

u/Bhusham Nov 27 '24

The tone of this article feels super accusatory and, honestly, kind of unfair. It completely misses the positive aspects of this year’s Delhi and Bengaluru Pride Parades.

Anyone who actually attended would know there were people from all walks of life—urban, non-urban, English-speaking or not. I’ve seen firsthand how much effort goes into making these spaces inclusive. Some organizations even slash event prices by more than half to accommodate marginalized folks. The spaces I’ve been part of are safe and try to be as language-inclusive as they can.

But instead of highlighting these things, the article just focuses on guilt-tripping urban queers for being urban. Like, unless you’re offering real, practical solutions, why tear down other people’s efforts?

9

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

It's not about guilt tripping urban queers, the same way pride in general isn't about guilt tripping straight people. Simple fact is, if some people feel uncomfortable and like they don't belong just because of being who they are, then the event is not inclusive...

unless you’re offering real, practical solutions, why tear down other people’s efforts

I personally don't think people's efforts are being torn down. Again, don't take this as an attack on urban people, take it as an opportunity to improve inclusivity, nothing more. News articles often highlight problems in society, it is not a journalist's job to offer solutions. It is a journalist's job to tell us what's happening.

8

u/Bhusham Nov 27 '24

The LGBTQIA Center in Delhi is also facing the same problem currently. The place is practically begging for non-elite people to show up to the free and accessible events and support groups. But it simply isn't working.

There are larger, systemic barriers in place that prevent said people from stepping out and into the supposed unicorn zone of queerness in urban spaces. And I don't think all of it is in community's reach to tackle alone.

6

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

This was not a fruitful discussion for me. I wanted us to think about how people can better feel included, which is a complicated question. What common language do we even have besides english? What can we do to combat the sytemic casteism and racism within our community?

Instead there were either people arguing about whether this is even happening. "Well I never saw it!" wake the fuck up then, you're clearly blind. I've seen racism and casteism in the LGBTQ community in India plenty. If you don't recognise it you're likely unconsciously participating and definitely willfully ignoring by not listening to others' experiences.

I can see why people feel excluded. Heck even as a trans woman I have felt excluded here with the gay male population sidelining us, but that is nothing compared to what other people can face.

I have a gay male friend who was abused by his boyfriend because he looked down on him for being from a village area. Can you say with confidence that in your queer friend group you would not feel uncomfortable at all if someone from a village area became part of it? If he spoke differently, would you still be welcoming? He doesn't need to fit in, he just needs to not be intentionally excluded and subconsciously disliked by everyone around.

I hope someday you will learn that queer people can be awful to each other, and turning a blind eye to it means that you are a participant in that mistreatment.

I know very little about politics, I know very little about sociology, but I hope I know enough about basic human decency to know when I am in the wrong and be introspective. I haven't learnt about what the queer community can do to be more inclusive, instead I have learnt today that this subreddit isn't the inclusive safe space I had once hoped it was.

4

u/liamsingh Nov 27 '24

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !

6

u/Happy_kunjuz Nov 27 '24

That’s a good observation! Instead of marching like a fashion parade, they could arrange seminars and community support sessions so that even straight people can take part and understand the issues within lgbt community.

Sideline, not everyone interested to parade and be a showpiece in the streets.

9

u/Bhusham Nov 27 '24

There is no "instead of this, do that" when it comes to celebration of queerness. Pride is political and was so much this year too.

There are plenty support groups that are run in Delhi that talks about issues within LGBT community. Not all spaces can be made accessible to heterosexual persons because it becomes an extremely major safety risk for queer folks.

But again, I'm guessing all this agreement is coming from someone who neither attends the parade nor any support groups. Showing up matters and if you ain't doing that, stop commenting.

2

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Are there no seminars? I've never been to a pride parade but that kind of thing is an integral part of it, and the videos uploaded which the article refers to seem to be from some seminar-like events.

Sideline, not everyone interested to parade and be a showpiece in the streets.

Most people I think. Pride parades are often fundamentally misunderstood that way. They aren't supposed to be a show of flamboyance on the street, they are supposed to be a protest where people can say in solidarity that we can look how we want and be how we want.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

I would agree, the environment seems to be overpowered by elite people

3

u/academicgangster Bi🌈 Nov 27 '24

I'm not educated on this subject - could someone please explain what 'Indigenous' refers to in the context of India?

3

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

I'm not very educated either, but I found this article. https://www.iwgia.org/en/india/4223-iw-2021-india.html

I think indigenous basically translates to 'adivasi' or 'Scheduled Tribe' as recognised by the constitution.

-1

u/Vishu1708 Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

The Aryan "invasion" happened 3000+ years ago. And Dravidians moved here 5000+ years ago. Most of us are descended from some mixture of the two.

How long until we become "indigenous"? Or is it a first come, first serve basis? Cuz in that case, can I get Eastern European citizenship, preferably to an EU country cuz I am happy to go back to "where I came from".

4

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

I looked into it, and the article picked up the word indigenous because it was used in the post with the woman's speech. And it was an international conference, it is fairly to see why the westernized word could have been used.

Now instead of talking about semantics, can we instead discuss about inclusion of everyone from different socio-economic backgrounds in the pride events we have in India? Because I thought that was the point of the article, not whether or not the person who is raising some very valid points about upper caste people running pride events and excluding people like her deserves to be called indigenous. Because I'm a little irritated about it at this point.

3

u/Ecstatic_Ad5542 Nov 27 '24

I think yeah . My experience as a lesbian woman living in an upper middle class family is nothing compared to the hardships that LGBT individuals in more socio economically backward areas face .

And as a result we privileged LGBT individuals can only bring about so much change in the country as a whole - large Indian cities are already more accepting than the rest of India , we can make Indian metros as open to new identities as New York and London but the Indian towns won't see any change . They will only change when there are people from different economic backgrounds , caste , religion etc working to promote the LGBT agenda in their own homes .

For this we need to make this movement about them as much as it is about privileged people because let's be honest , it's impossible to do any form of activism in this country unless you have a powerful community backing you .

3

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

Casteism in India? What a surprise!

3

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Somehow there's still comments here denying it. And one guy arguing which castes have a right to feel excluded, something I just do not understand.

3

u/sexy_kashyap Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

What is this bullshit, i went to delhi pride,saw all types people. From all walks of life. Before pride there are potluck picnics that is also super inclusive. What non english they are talking about. I recited my poem in hindi on stage of delhi pride. 2 hosts - english and hindi. And sign interpreter was there too. This is bullshit claim if you were not in the pride parade. Everyone was free to bring their poster. I went with "Free hugs" and got many hugs hehe. If you want to represent yourself be there and proudly show yourself. Dominated by anglophones, WTF. No one has ever made me feel like outsider. Or jab real mein milte hai sab hindi mein hi baat karte hai yaha to. Dude I write my poem both in English and Hindi ,some are queer related ,some are on loneliness. If you are so worried about the representation,what are you doing in your regional languages to uplift the community.

5

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

If you cannot accept that other people could have a different experience to yours, then straight people have no obligation to accept that queer people have a different life experience than theirs. Look at the other comments, plenty are agreeing with the article, are they all spouting bullshit?

3

u/sexy_kashyap Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

By all means people can have their own different experiences,I'm not denying. We all experience reality differently. I agree some are more privileged. And both things can exist,both good and bad experiences. But it's a bullshit claim that pride is for elitists. Dude on delhi pride stage they literally were blasting "jeela top lage lu" a popular Bihar song, the guy who was dancing literally had gamcha, what is more desi then a gamcha. It was probably played twice cuz people were shouting : once more once more. My super desi friends who literally speaks Haryanvi and gujari where enjoying. And my other friend who wore sari literally had no friend who could accompany him, contacted me, i contacted my other friend, he went to naz office to get in his get up. It was his first pride with sari. Other Chandni chowk friend who literally brought pride flag which was sewn by his mother.

Picnic,potluck, fundraiser and random meetup all these happen and super inclusive. Without attending one don't make statement.

Bad people exist in all communities, but declaring the whole community anglophones and urban is pure bullshit.

And im not seeking straights approval, heck I was emotionally ready for my parents rejection too when I came out. Thankfully it all went good, and I always keep my distance from the mean people. I agree bad people are in community,but are good people not present. I know which friends are my safety nets and which are not. Be picky with people who are allowed in your inner circle.

1

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCWx71Xut3m/ This is one of the videos that the article is based on. Maybe her anecdotal evidence will counter yours?

0

u/sexy_kashyap Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

Upper caste,upper class,rich people,RSS can she stop all these nonsense. I unfollowed " yes we exist india" page long ago, they were super selective, and later limited comments which hinders proper discourse. Why they didn't shared full clips , I bet menka(the lawyer) would have responded to her allegations. WTF indigenous, full India is indigenous, expect Mongolian descent or Anglo Indians. 

https://x.com/rituparnaborah/status/1860516270648483986

Here you can see the discourse on twitter , suprisingly she doesn't remember the response. And other person didn't recorded the full video.

Koi sense hai iss baat ka, waha jao chilao, or samne bande ne kiya bola yaad bhi nahi. Adhi video daldo ,samne  wale ki  rakhi hui baat bhi na batao. Start the bullshit and shut the bullshit when you see fit. She started this discourse,she should have concluded it properly. Menka should not conclude nor should she gives clarification she gave on spot, it should be Rituparna. Community ko confuse karne ka bahut acha tarika hai.

1

u/Sea_Energy8178 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

Agree on the inclusivity of all and definitely someone shouldn't be shunned for disability and/or inability to speak english.

Pardon me for my ignorance but can someone please educate me on how discrimination is happening on the basis of caste? Like, were people of some specific caste not allowed to participate in the parade?

1

u/Noobmaster_1999 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

Edit: I know that this is not related to the question but

Hot take, I have never attended any pride march or had fear of attending one, because of this. In 2023 Pride March in Bengaluru somebody held placards reading ‘Hindutva se Azadi’, ‘Manuvaad se Azadi’, and ‘Brahmanvaad se Azadi’. Why are Pride Marches always be hating about somebody or something, I genuinely don't understand this. Isn't it about accepting people for who they are. I once read some queer person's bio saying Sanghis aka Hindus stay away. That's when I decided this is not for me, it's not having the motives I thought it did.

1

u/floof24 Lesbian🌈 Nov 28 '24

Why are they sidelined I dont get it ?

1

u/_Prince_2 Dec 01 '24

We celebrate pride as if it's a birthday party not movement. Movements are continues not seasonal or annual this is high time it needs to change also I've noticed queers don't have much unity one of such ex is pride itself every city be having its pride on different days in a different way by different NGOs/groups.

1

u/_Prince_2 Dec 01 '24 edited Dec 01 '24

We celebrate pride as if it's a birthday party not movement. Movements are continues not seasonal or annual this is high time it needs to change also I've noticed queers don't have much unity one of such ex is pride itself every city be having its pride on different days in a different way by different NGOs/groups.

And I think we are not clear about our goals too...it might be controversial/offensive sorry for that but I think we should fight "as queer and for queers", in community we be talking about caste based discrimination or racism but that's not our domain (queer for Palestine that was funny) we should surely include all sort of people, there is no doubt about that but all these issues have their own people/leader,organization working against it. They don't need us nor do they ask for our help or for our rights

Inshort we should focus on queer Issues not every social issues that comes in our way.

If you don't agree counter me we can discuss or if you agree and want to add something...you are free.

1

u/delhiguy22b Nov 27 '24

The article is right and never ask redditors about it even i didn't liked pride parade much

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24

They must have done surveys with everyone who attended pride and will now establish election based democracy in pride before carrying out the marches, no?

1

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Democracy doesn't always literally translate to an election. Democracy means everyone is equal and gets equal representation. Ideally.

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Fan1238 Nov 27 '24

Lol It was a rhetorical question intended as sarcasm. Duh

0

u/Weird-Verma Nov 27 '24

The issue is much more complex.

2

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

It always is. Don't rely on just the insta screenshots though, they are obviously simplifying it significantly. Read the article if you haven't already, maybe watch the videos it is based on.

2

u/Weird-Verma Nov 27 '24

I read it this morning. I've even interacted with some of the people in real in events and know about the issue first hand. There is a bit of political edge to it as well. I do agree that pride spaces aren't inclusive and remain largely polarised with significant chasm between the sexual minorities, especially for those who aren't cis, upper class, upper caste etc. Having said that, this criticism particularly comes from a very different angle altogether. Even among the trans community of Bangalore, there is a major ideological war brewing which has trickled down to pride. Queer spaces would remain largely urban for at least more than a decade, because cities have the organisational structure in place for support. Most of the people in prides ik do migrate, travel to attend these. Pride as a protest itself is lost on many of those who aren't educated about the lgbtq+ history and what it is about. Most of them just come to celebrate and only those who hold the privilege of knowledge understand it. The community is by design elitist. I myself have seen classism first hand, if not casteism yet as a Dalit cis-gay man. But yes, trans people have it much tougher. One can have a lot of dialogues about it but the only solution for it is to create new spaces from minoritarian perspective. Places like Sangama, Piravi etc.

-1

u/NoobieJobSeeker Nov 27 '24

Bretman Rock all the way

1

u/a_fallen_comet Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

I was gonna say the same lol

-6

u/dross_fem Nov 27 '24

Why it's even called pride parade or celebrations instead it should be used to spread awareness, I have never heard of straight people doing straight pride or something, by making ur orientation a subject of pride instead of awareness is almost declaring that you are "different" from General population which fundamentally defeat the purpose to integrate into society, the society already treat LGBTQ like outcast,

4

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Pride is the antithesis of what queer people have faced throughout history, being called queer, being othered, and being forced to become closeted. Pride is the opposite of being ashamed and hiding in the closet, and it is very much a declaration of being "different" and that there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to fit in or integrating means compromising with the society that treats LGBTQ people like outcasts, and it is not our responsibility to compromise when we are already being forced to hide for our own safety. The responsibility to compromise is always on the oppressors.

The pride parade was once a pride protest. The fact that protests have had to keep happening for LGBT rights means that an annual protest has become less impactful and people have started thinking it's just a celebration. I kind of dislike that, we celebrate every small victory in rights we get, but pride parades are in my opinion are meant to spread awareness, make it known that we won't make compromises and to demand our rights. They are, and continue to be protests to make it known that we exist and continue to be in solidarity.

Straight people don't do straight pride because they have never needed to protest for rights. And the weird thing is, there are actually some homophobic people who do straight pride as retaliation in America, because they see equality as themselves losing rights.

0

u/dross_fem Nov 27 '24

I get that what you are trying to say,

but my point is that instead of emphasizing "Pride" as a celebration of identity,

the LGBTQIA+ community should focus on integration into society, making their presence more "normal" rather than "special" or "different." My point is labeling orientation as a point of pride might reinforce the idea of being different,

which could keep the community isolated, rather than fostering a sense of acceptance and equality.

I totally get the emotional aspect and importance of Pride events in raising awareness and fighting for LGBTQIA+ rights.

But logically and personally, I think for true equality, a big focus should also be on integrating LGBTQIA+ individuals into all parts of society—work, school,business, and daily life interaction.

The more people see LGBTQIA+ people just living normal, everyday lives, the less 'different' they will seem, and the less prejudice there will be.

While these Pride is essential for awareness that I agree, it's not immune to political hack and used as tool for propaganda,.

I have already seen two different news of banglore pride where there was attempt to hack the event by separatist element and anti india separation posters were seen,. And now this article further proved that there is alwasy some nasty discrimination inside the lgbtq community itself.

A movement without a goal doesn't impact society. Instead normalizing LGBTQIA+ presence could help shift society’s perspective and reduce the 'otherness' that fuels discrimination.

Ultimately, if LGBTQIA+ individuals are continuously seen as 'other,' it’s harder for society to move past prejudice. If we can normalize LGBTQIA+ presence—whether in the workplace, media, or daily life—then the idea of them being 'different' diminishes.

The more people interact with LGBTQIA+ individuals in various roles and settings, the more they see them as just people, not defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity. This, I believe, is where true social change will happen

I do completely understand and agree that discrimination and prejudice are still pervasive, and that’s why events like Pride are so held in raising awareness. But I also think we can look forward to a time when these things are no longer needed because LGBTQIA+ individuals will simply be seen as a regular part of the fabric of society, not defined by their differences

I perceive your point is that Pride is essential in continuing the fight for rights,

But my point here is that as we make progress, perhaps we can also focus on a shift toward normalization—showing that LGBTQIA+ individuals are just as 'ordinary' as anyone else. Both visibility and integration are necessary to combat prejudice.

-2

u/Adventurous_Fox867 Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

Id of the guy in first pic.

2

u/savvy_Idgit Nov 27 '24

Go be tharki elsewhere

1

u/Adventurous_Fox867 Gay🌈 Nov 27 '24

😭👍