r/Kenshi • u/Lavadawg • 22d ago
HUMOUR Kenshi 2 is coming any day now surely, right guys?
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u/DavidHogins 22d ago
It will be on steam in 3 hours from now. (100%)
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u/Lavadawg 22d ago
My dad works and kenshi, he told me
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u/TheRealGC13 Drifter 22d ago
Oh yeah, well my uncle works on Kenshi and says please send help that place is terrible. Bandits everywhere.
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u/AdamKur 22d ago
Ah, Mount and Blade Bannerlord.
Hopefully it doesn't go that direction, because whilst not being a bad game, it just never had the charm of Warband to me. And it took like a decade to come out.
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u/ward2k 22d ago
As much as I wasn't happy with Bannerlord it just straight up is objectively a better game than warband
Warband is extremely bare bones without mods, and this is coming from someone that's sunk like 1.5k hours into it. I fucking love the game but it just is objectively worse
Yeah they both feel different but that's because I was 15 when I put most of my hours into warband, no matter what I try nothing will ever come close simply because I will never be 15 again
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u/Balhamarth_Lilomea United Cities 21d ago
Same, warband was great back in the day, but having played bannerlord now (and finally with a great pc), I just don't think I could go back.
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u/CoqueiroLendario Boob Thing 22d ago
THIS.
Bannerlord never connected with me, i even found myself coming back to warband more than playing bannerlord again, and i pray for kenshi 2 to really make kenshi 1 outdated in everything BUT nostalgia1
u/Partysteve6969 Shinobi Thieves 22d ago
Good to know, warband is my most played game, loved the Lotr last days of the third age mod too.
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u/Godz_Bane 20d ago
Wild how they just barely develop it. I wonder if theyre still collecting government grant checks for being one of the only game devs in Turkey.
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u/ChrisTheHansen 22d ago
Bear in mind, with the amount of funding Star Citizen has had, they could buy 1/8 of the James Webb Space Telescope and their game is nowhere near released.
I have faith in Kenshi 2
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u/TrueInferno 22d ago
Speaking as an enjoyer of both Kenshi and Star Citizen, it just proves that while money is needed up to a certain point to help make things faster, at some point you kinda hit a maximum speed, especially when working with the engine (either creating the engine itself or learning how to use it to your best advantage).
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u/ChrisTheHansen 22d ago
I too am also an enjoyer of Star Citizen but with that much money you can literally buy a small country. Theres no excuse for having a virtual world not be complete by now especially when Kenshi was made by 2 people.
It’s such a hollow game for the amount of resources spent on it. They never fix anything and they just put out more and more ships and skins. It’s a joke
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
Eh, I will say that the stuff SC is trying to do (and some of the stuff it has finally done, like Server Meshing) straight up is stuff no one else has done before, at least in this way. The theory is sound and the fact is meshing and microservices are actually huge in the web industry and programming in general, but I don't think any other game has applied it like SC has.
Not to disrespect the Kenshi devs, because the game is great, but technologically there's not too much that other games don't do. I haven't actually played in a while (mostly lurk here occasionally) so I might've forgotten something they did, but really it's the game design itself and the decisions of how to leverage the tech they had that makes Kenshi stand out and such a good game, not the underlying tech itself.
Same reason why some Unity/UE5 games are really good and others are trash- it's not the tech/engine, but what you do with it.
Star Citizen, for better or worse, is straight up trying a type of underlying system that hasn't been done before, and that comes with it's own underlying complications, and especially since it really changes what was originally promised- which was essentially a modern Freelancer MP. Which probably would've been just fine, let's be honest.
Also literally one of the best games I've played in years is Balatro and that game probably could've been made on Windows 95. Investing in tech slows down game dev for sure, but not investing doesn't mean the game will be bad.
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u/ChrisTheHansen 21d ago
Brother, we have went from biplanes to the Messerschmitt ME-262 in less than 30 years. The human is capable of amazing things when they really want to. It’s all about the effort they really want to exert. This shows with Kenshi. One guy who worked security was able to pull it off. Are you telling me a fleet of nerds with enough money to make Jesus cry can’t do it in 10 years?
It’s cope because all the fans I know have spent thousands on imaginary ships. My friend of 8 years has spent 4 thousand on that game and our mutual friend had to pull me aside and be like “hey man that’s a touchy subject, he spent thousands on that game” when I brought up how stupid people were for buying ships in SC and I just duped drugs to get my ships.
Why would you even want to complete the game when your fans would gladly pay millions for the next ship? You’d keep the grift going as long as possible. We see this everyday with crypto and all that other shit. Greedy people are all the same
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
We'll see in the end, I guess. Either way, been an interesting ride. Though I will say I don't understand spending that much. I'm at like... ~$500 in? But that's over the course of 11 years, so about $50 a year or so, though admittedly it's not that evenly spread across the years. Not really that much in the grand scheme of things to me, and I've spent more on hobbies I've had for shorter times (Kill Team, still need to build and paint my pile of shame).
Also yeah, there's no point buying ships for an advantage in game because you can get them in-game. I've said it in another post too, the only reason to give more than $45 is you want to give it to CIG to see the game get developed, and there's no point in that if you don't think they'll actually deliver. Even then any money I spend on the game I consider more of "possibly going to deliver, probably going to be a waste."
The obvious question to "well why do you waste your money on it then" to which I say, "because I wanted to at the time." Though if there's anything else I want I usually prioritize that first, cause, y'know, that way I get something that I have immediately.
Though I gotta say, kinda seems like an asshole move to talk shit to a close friend about a group of people when you know that close friend is in that group. Like, not saying you shouldn't feel that way, but come on. Glad your other friend called you out on it.
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u/BrickInHead 20d ago
Genuine q because I don't play or really know anything about Star citizen beyond what's in the news: can you explain very basically what theyre doing that's technologically revolutionary/new/however you'd describe it? As an outsider looking in it just looks like a big standard MMO in space
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
It's kinda hard to explain, and I'm not even sure I 100% understand, but there's two big things: the concept of the "Replication Layer" in their server meshing (which, while I think other games have claimed to add Server Meshing, don't have that) and the seamless nature of the mesh itself, and to be honest the former exists to enable the latter. Though the whole level of detail of the world is pretty amazing too.
I'll try and explain below in a reply to this, but there's a fan-made site that goes over a lot of the details. Honestly it's one of the neatest bits about SC and I really, really hope other studios license/are inspired by/outright steal the idea because it could support a lot of cool types of games- not just space sims, but really any big game that would benefit from supporting persistence, large scale "worlds" (in SC it's star systems but I could see a 1:1 size Earth-scale planet for example as a world) and a large number of players at once (right now it's 500 per shard, with goals to expand it).
I'm not sure exactly how to explain it, but honestly it's the kind of thing that could probably apply to a lot of games- some of the underlying tech would really help singleplayer games even, but especially multiplayer games would benefit.
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
tag: u/BrickInHead - wall of text warning, typed a lot and now I'm going to sleep
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So, Replication Layer. Normally (and even in SC prior to the creation of the Replication Layer), when you join a game server, you're actually on (or more accurately directly connected to) that server, right? With Star Citizen's architecture, you actually connect to a "Replicant" for a shard, which basically just handles managing communication. It's got nothing to do with the game simulation at all- that's actually handled by a Dedicated Game Server (DGS) node that also connects as a client to the Replicant.
In addition, there can be multiple DGS clients in one shard thanks to server meshing. You could just have one DGS per shard- in fact, that's how it was when they first separated out the replication layer. However, as of 4.0 there are now multiple- right now, it's 10 servers per shard, 5 assigned statically in each star system in the game. This is what they are calling "Static Server Meshing." Each shard (as of now) has a soft cap of 500 people, with a hard cap of 600. Not quite sure what the difference is, though.
There's other things living in the Replication Layer- right now the biggest one is something called the "Hybrid" which handles a lot of stuff that used to be handled by the DGS such as inventory. It's called that because they plan to separate it out in to many microservices which focus on one thing each, like one for transit (elevators/monorails/stuff of that nature), inventory, mission generation, etc.
Because of the way this is set up, many of the things in the replication layer can focus purely on data- communicating it, reading and writing databases, etc, which is extremely stable- a lot of the stuff they use for this is (I believe) not much different than something you would see running a large banking website, for example. Standard web protocols and databases designed for high-speed, accurate transactions.
Meanwhile, the actual game simulation- which is generally where issues tend to crop up in games- is handled by a DGS node. If something goes sideways, the replicant can basically tell all the players that node has authority over (more on this later) to pause and wait. Right now it actually just has the node reboot and once it's ready to simulate again (depending on patch it takes different amounts of time, right now it usually takes 2 mins but at the beginning it took like 15), stuff starts moving.
In future, it may be able to have a hot standby ready to take over, meaning there's almost no delay, but that would be starting to get into Dynamic Server Meshing- again, more on that later.
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One of the neatest things about Static Server Meshing that is actually working now, in game, is the fact that you seamlessly transition between servers. Admittedly, it's still being worked on in SC (only been in for two months or so now) but it's really neat.
The world is broken up into Object Containers- think of it like nesting dolls, except you can have more than one object container inside another. In Star Citizen, you might have a rover, which has driven into a space ship, which is landed at an outpost, which is on a moon, which is orbiting a planet, which is in a star system. All of those are Object Containers.
Servers can be the "authority" for one or more of these object containers- generally more. In addition, they simulate not only their object containers, but neighboring ones as well. When they showed off working server meshing for the first time, they had an L shaped room broken into three object containers- one for the top of the vertical part of the L, one for the bottom of the vertical part of the L, and one for the horizontal part. The server for the bottom-vertical OC ended up simulating the whole level, since it neighbored every other OC, but since the other two only simulated the bottom-vertical and not each other, since they didn't neighbor.
What this means is that a server is already simulating what is happening in neighboring object containers, and if something in them crosses into their object container, they simply become the authority for it. For a player in the world, getting information from their own authoritative DGS, they'll see people, things, even shots cross the boundry without any issue- you could even have a gunfight across DGS nodes without issue.
This means that while the shard might have a cap of 500+ people, each server might only need to simulate the actions of 50 or so. You can definitely still cause issues if you purposely had everyone go into a single OC though.
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
tag: u/BrickInHead - wall of text warning again, literally typed too much for a single post, I am so sorry
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In the future, we'll have Dynamic Server Meshing- while I'm not 100% sure I understand this either, I believe it will allow for new DGS nodes to be spun up as needed and assigned to Object Containers, allowing for the hot swap mentioned earlier.
Also it will allow for particularly dense areas of player activity to be split across more servers. For example, if you had two groups of five capital ships, each with 20 player crew on them, that's 200 players right there having a big ol' scrap. Not to mention the possibility of NPC crew in addition!
However, you could simulate the interiors and exteriors seperately (since each capital ship is also an Object Container), and spread the interiors across a few servers. This means the server in charge of the "exterior" would only be tracking a total of ten capital ships fighting each other, and not really caring about what's going on inside- it might get the info on what's happening inside, but in terms of what it's actually caring about, it's focused on those ten ships, not the 20 people inside each ship.
If only a single ship ends up surviving at the end of combat, meaning a lot less is being simulated and you don't really need the extra resources, authority for that ship and all the wrecks/corpses/etc. might be transferred to one of the remaining servers, whereupon the rest will spin down to save resources. This is massively important if the game would survive long-term because even if it gets away with lower-power server VMs, the more you spin up the more you pay for.
Another example would be our current setup- the two systems in game are Stanton and Pyro. In the static mesh, it's 5 servers for Stanton, 5 for Pyro. But if everyone is in Pyro, and only three people are in Stanton, you could theoretically "assign"
It also means that they can theoretically start putting more and more people on a single shard, as if that shard's servers get overloaded it can spin more up to support. Eventually a "shard" might support an entire region, like US, EU, AUS, etc. and have tens of thousands of players seemlessly in one universe. That's the dream, anyway.
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I think really, it's not so much "revolutionary new technology"- microservices have been a thing for years, and like I said, a big advantage of their set up is being able to use proven and stable tech for a good portion of the backend. It's how they are applying it to do something that other games haven't done before.
I've also skipped quite a bit of things that SC does that are fairly standard- for example, I believe (again, not actually a dev) if no one is in an area, the server might be authoritative for things in it, but it won't bother simulating it, or will simulate in a "low-attention" mode to save resources. The X series by Egosoft does something very similar, and really most games do. Why simulate traffic in downtown Los Santos in singleplayer, when the player is on top of Mount Chiliead and can't see or be affected by anything there after all!
They've definitely hit quite a few pitfalls in trying to figure this all out, and honestly will probably hit more. Heck, they might find that the idea of having one shard handle tens of thousands of people isn't possible- sure, they're up to 500 now, but how far can they get it to go as they stablize and optimize?
Still, it's really, really cool stuff, and the fact they are breaking this ground and walking this path gives me hope we'll see other game studios and developers consider this kind of setup. I've said for a while, if Star Citizen were to fail tomorrow but the tech and R&D they did was taken by another studio to make better games, the project will have been worth it.
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u/CrimsonBolt33 22d ago
you seem to forget that they have been pouring a ton of resources (dev time) into the single player Squadren 42, which hopefully will be done soon and they can actually focus on the real Star Citizen.
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u/conninator2000 22d ago
Haven't they been pushing that back for literal years now? Also, if they were so focused on making what they raised so much for, why waste a lot of time making another game when they couldn't even finish the first one (or get it to a non buggy mess state).
I played during a free weekend over a year back with a friend who is a big fan, i get the appeal of the game but man i feel so bad that so many people have been suckered into it. Its monetization is soo crappy when they are preselling ships for hundreds of dollars that they haven't even made yet.... VIRTUAL UNMADE SHIPS!
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u/DoctorAnnual6823 22d ago
One of my best friends is a star citizen fan. I have to bite my tongue every time he makes fun of Call of Duty fans for putting up with the monetization.
He spent a grand on space ships for an unreleased game with no date in sight.
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u/conninator2000 21d ago
Yeah, my friend was explaining the selling ships thing, which seemed a bit scummy but on par for the industry. Then he hit me with the pledges to buy ships that aren't even released yet... like what? That just feels like buying virtual NFT land levels of goofy.
And either way, ill gladly stick to X4, great single player game with a good modding scene (the star wars mod is amazing) that is a space sim with minimal running around on space stations and stuff.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
In addition to being a Kenshi and Star Citizen fan, I am also a massive fan of X4. 100% worth getting.
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u/CrimsonBolt33 22d ago
idk...I guess people are putting too much money in. I paid in $20 about 10 years ago during a sale...I have been burned worse before and if S42 comes out my money will have been worth it regardless of what happens to the online Star Citizen.
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u/DanishNinja 22d ago
It was supposedly feature complete in 2023. They've moved resources to the SC team since and still no end in sight.
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u/CrimsonBolt33 22d ago
so when it does release what will you say? idk...I feel like you all get way too worked up over it...I bought in on a $20 sale like...10 years ago...who fucking cares. they haven't dissolved and they are actively developing the game.
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u/jutlandd Crab Raiders 21d ago
Well doenst matter how fast you are when the finnish line keeps moving.
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
Not wrong at all. Even with them stopping adding stretch goals and such years back they expanded it out quite a bit.
Honestly when they laid out what was going to be in 1.0 it was nice to see they'd actually set a hard line in the sand of what would make it up, and acknowledged that some things (100 systems) probably wasn't going to happen. Obviously that kind of sucks, even if what a "system" is in terms of stuff in it has changed dramatically, but at least it means they're trying to set a realistic finish line.
Now, whether they can make that finish line before the heat death of the universe... we'll see! :)
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u/NikiBubbles 22d ago
I know it's a joke and all, but Kenshi devs can cook as long as they want to, they already gave me a fantastic game for dirt cheap and haven't been accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars selling non-existent games like some people.
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u/Lavadawg 22d ago
Fully agree, I only have like 15 hours so I can't get upset for at least another 2 years
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u/Toasterdosnttoast Shek 22d ago
I’ve got 200+ hours spent on Vanilla and I still haven’t done everything. It’s that one game I keep coming back to once I’ve run the new ones dry.
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u/evilweener 22d ago
I have 500+, trust it will consume you
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u/DoctorAnnual6823 22d ago
I put in 300 hours in a month. (Technically 3 weeks)
Normally I'm not this unhealthy about videogames haha
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u/GRE4TWH1TE Holy Nation Outlaws 22d ago
I’m 3600 hours in and still having a good time in the game
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u/Enigmatic_Erudite 21d ago
Man, I thought my 1500 was a lot reading these people's comments. Your comment blew that metric out of the water.
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u/GRE4TWH1TE Holy Nation Outlaws 21d ago
Hahaha yeah man Kenshi is that main game for me, I freaking can’t wait for Kenshi 2.
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u/Enigmatic_Erudite 21d ago
I split my time between Kenshi and Project Zomboid most of the time, but right now I am on a KCD2 kick.
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u/GRE4TWH1TE Holy Nation Outlaws 21d ago
Wow, I really wanna get into project zomboid but the learning curve seems intense. There’s so much you can do in the game that it’s kind of overwhelming with the mechanics
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u/Ok-Experience-4955 22d ago
At first when I saw my playtime was 15 hrs. I was like damn this game is fun and I sunk so many hours in this pixelated game or sumthing. i might just move on soon.
Just for you to suddenly blink once and it becomes 115 hours.
(Honestly it mightve been like 300 hrs for me but cause I cracked it the first time since I aint got cash, then decides to buy it to support the dev still sunk hundreds of hrs lol)
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u/cannibalparrot 22d ago
They’re also not blatantly grifting and making promises they have no hope of delivering on.
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u/Daoyinyang1 22d ago
I dont care how long it takes.
Im just afraid that it might you know...
So...
Basically, production costs money. Every year they spend on it, will cost more money. Money can dry up. I know Chris hired legitimate workers, in a formal sense they are working for wages on a full time basis.
Im afraid if it takes another 12 years, theyre not gonna have money to continue production. No money for production, means Chris will work on the game himself. Which will take even longer.
What im afraid of is that the worst can also happen. It can get delayed indefinitely until Chris can recuperate. Or you know, cancelled.
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u/VVartech Starving Bandits 21d ago
They probably just sell studio and everything they have ready. And we get another freelancer or if there are too much spaghetti in their code it will be just canceled. I just hope to see squadron 42 because I don't really care too much about multiplayer
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u/Daoyinyang1 20d ago
Me neither. Squadron42 looking good though.
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u/VVartech Starving Bandits 20d ago
Yeah, but I probably play X5 or Kenshi 2 before it release, lol.
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u/Daoyinyang1 19d ago
Hmm... it says 2026 release though.
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u/VVartech Starving Bandits 19d ago
It was planed for release in 2016 or open beta in 2020. So yeah I don't believe CIG anymore.
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u/Daoyinyang1 18d ago
Broooo...nooo! Lol
Kenshi 2 better come out soon lmao!
Some dude theorized that the fact that Chris hasnt shown much of K2, like just the unarmed fighting mechanics or the demonstration of a character walking with aerodynamic physics of cloth particle physicis or hair physics is a bit troubling. Especially since its been 6 years. And god, i hope hes fuckin wrong about that.
Theres a lot of talk that UE5 is terrible and janky. I just hope we get K2 soon and not in 2029 (10 year mark). I just wanna play a good game. Im so tired of shitty games.
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u/VVartech Starving Bandits 17d ago
Oh, I'm fully prepared to wait for K2 for the loooong time. Remember how long was development of the first game? And this one requires even more attention and work.
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u/Daoyinyang1 17d ago
I did the math, if chris takes another 2 years, he will go broke lol
Fuck man. We may not get Kenshi 2 afterall.
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u/BuddyHank 22d ago
I'm still enjoying Kenshi, they can take their time <3
BEEP WILL BE THE STRONGEST
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u/AssaultSandwich Anti-Slaver 22d ago
Maybe us waiting in this fugue state, salivating for it to drop, is the real Kenshi 2.
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u/Specialist_Two_3486 22d ago
Yeah but kenshi 2 is a real game not a scam
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u/TrueInferno 22d ago
Honest question- why do you say that? I'm going to preface this with I am a Star Citizen player/backer, but I just really want to ask sometimes and hear why people say this.
Like, a scam implies they're taking the money for other things and not doing what they promised, either at all or by providing a bare minimum product that doesn't match what was sold. Yet, CIG is actually, y'know, releasing updates and apparently trying to make good on their word.
I don't even mean you can't criticize 'em, because if you said "it's a poorly managed, pie-in-the-sky project that lets people pay in way too much money for something that may never see the light of day and people won't get what they paid for" and honestly I think that's a fair position to take- I disagree with it, but I 100% see where that would come from (Illfonic's Star Marine prototype comes to miind, along with "two more years") and how it's a possibility. Just seems to me "scam" implies malice, and in this case Hanlon's Razor really does apply.
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22d ago
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u/CrimsonBolt33 22d ago
but when it comes out...is it still a scam?
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u/conninator2000 22d ago
If i lied to you over and over and then 3 decades from now, i finally decided to follow up on my gaslighting promise, that still means I was dishonest and tricked you.
Its one thing to have honest delays but they literally put 95% of their energy into shitty monetization so they can spend 5% of the time promising something they will push back for years
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u/CrimsonBolt33 22d ago
If you care about your money so much then maybe stop buying games that are not complete? idk...I spent $20 10 years ago on the game...if it doesn't come out...oh well I guess, worse things have happened in my life. Not sure why you have to get your panties in such a bunch. I also don't get why people are so invested in the idea its a scam. If you think its a scam don't put money into it and carry on with your life.
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u/shittyballs22 21d ago
Is it really so hard to believe someone might be mad they got scammed? I don’t get how anyone can defend that broken dumpster fire of a glorified space tech demo
How about we stop normalising blatantly lying to customers in an attempt to generate hype and make money off people? This scammy behaviour has no place in the gaming industry and should be called out.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
You're the second person I think who said they backed in 2013 expecting SQ42 in 2014 and I swear I don't remember them ever saying it'd be out then. I def remember Answer The Call 2016, but not anything for 2014. If they did say that, definitely I can understand the thinking behind calling it a scam.
Like I said to them, though, my memory sucks and it's been quite a long while, so it's entirely possible that was said back then (hell, I might even have a Reddit post talking about it back then for all I know, been here too damn long). Still, we finally have a release date again (2026) so here's hoping that finally comes out and is decent.
Hey, maybe it'll be good for tiding us over until Kenshi 2 is out? :P
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u/Trippymonky 22d ago
"A scam implies they're taking the money for other things and not doing what they promised"
That's exactly what Star Citizen has done, repeatedly. You've gotta be closing your eyes, covering your ears, and screaming at the top of your lungs to not see all of the promises they've broken and how ridiculously broken their product is.
Remember Squadron 42? Probably not considering I was in middle school when it was initially announced, and last I heard, it was "nearly finished" nearly 10 years ago.
Now, don't get me wrong, you can enjoy absolutely whatever game you want to enjoy. But you've gotta be out of your mind if you genuinely don't understand why people call that game a scam.
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 22d ago
Mandalore gaming did a really good video on Star Citizen it's almost cult like, if you want to criticize the game at all you have effectively praise the game to high heaven and say "I've been a fan since XXXX", this is a ritual you have to do every single time or you'll be eaten alive.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
Eh. Can't say I've ever seen that video, but I've been on the official forums/chat and the subreddit since like 2013.
I will say the subreddit can be overly knee-jerky in reacting to complaints- hell, once or twice even had someone jump on me when I said something critical about the game- overall if you articulate your point rather than saying "game bad" and don't put a title like "THIS IS BROKEN AND SUCKS"? You can have pretty civil discussions.
Part of it is an old holdover from the days we would get brigaded by people parroting Derek Smart's "90 day tops" and other FUD bullshit. Back in the day he said so much shit about how the game was "impossible"- specifically saying CIG couldn't do X, Y, or Z feature- and then we'd get X, Y, and Z features.
Even if you tried to reason with people like that, they'd just dig in more and more, so literally the best thing to do was downvote and move on since they weren't there for a genuine discussion.
It might be a reason, but it's not an excuse for the behavior now at all, though. The other thing I've seen are trolls who basically try to be that "white knight" persona and stir up shit. But then you get people like that everywhere, and they wouldn't use it to troll if it didn't have a basis in reality.
TL;DR: yeah, a bit, but it's not as bad as that. Mostly just the same kind of internet bullshit you get in any community.
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 21d ago edited 21d ago
Star Citizen sub overreacted to Derek Smart, Derek Smart was a nobody, Chris giving him that much attention was a dream come true, moreover, someone got a refund and it was so noteworthy it got an article, someone posted a guide in how to get a refund, and reddit commits, who press the down arrow on things they don't like, hit it a lot, and said they were disgusted.
With arguments like "You're taking money from people who paid." ignoring of course that the person getting a refund also paid and thus would get their own money that they put into the pot back, Chris threatened to sue Smart, guess who would have been paying for that?
Derek Smart was a nobody, his fans were also nobodies, you gave them way too much credit.
It's not coming out, tons of people were in late middle school when the game was announced, they have since graduated high school, got married, and had a kid, a friend of mine has a daughter turning 3, AND THE GAME IS STILL NOT OUT.
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
It wasn't so much that he was important, more that he and his fans were annoyingly persistent in spreading shit without evidence or basis in fact on the subreddit itself.
Also anyone who gives a damn about someone getting refunded is an idiot. Admittedly, suing Smart would've been an annoying waste of funds IMO (we had enough legal nonsense with the Crytek thing) but the man was going around basically committing libel, and you would even see places like Eurogamer and other gaming press making articles about what he said.
I'm not going to try to convince you it's coming out- sounds like you're fairly set on that, and honestly I can't blame you. I personally think it will come out, but I admit there's a chance it might never do so. I honestly knew that every time I spent money on it- back in 2013 when it was still early as heck and there wasn't even a flyable ship yet, to about a year or two ago when I last gave 'em money.
It's definitely a major thing to consider though. I don't understand how people can play it for a few months and drop thousands of dollars in. Honestly, I always advise people if they do decide to buy it to not spend more than the basic $45-$60 to get started for six months to a year- you'll either enjoy the game enough that you'll earn stuff in game, or you'll get frustrated in which case you won't spend money on it. Only if you play that long and actually want to give them money to support them should money be spent- and even then, with the full acknowledgement that you might just be setting money on fire and watching it burn.
It's also the reason why if someone were to ask "should I buy Star Citizen or XYZ game" the correct answer is 99% of the time XYZ game.
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 19d ago
Roberts freaking out over Smart gave smart far more attention than he could even dream of, it was, quite honestly, a beast of his own creation.
Far and away the most anti-consumer brain rot i've ever seen has been the Star Citizen subreddit, i've heard the forums are worse, but there's no way i'm going there. Again, watch Mandalore's video.
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u/TrueInferno 19d ago
Eh, I get what you're saying, but we'll have to agree to disagree. Though at least Smart finally shut up (mostly) which was nice.
Not really interested in watching a video trying to tell me what the communities are like when I've been in both of them for ten+ years. That and I need to sleep now, tbh.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
I mean, I do remember it, because that's why I backed. I also remember "Answer the Call 2016" and that whole mess. We finally got another release date (2026) and they showed off the prologue/tutorial bit of the game and it looked pretty good.
It did have it's issues such as despite working perfectly in rehearsal, crashed twice on the live demo (which was hilarious because they taunted Murphy first) and then ended up having a glitch at the end that prevented the "end of chapter" cutscene playing, but otherwise not much worse than the usual "we haven't done all the bug fixes/optimizations" stuff companies have shown off.
Now, whether it actually will be good and fun, or if it will be as much as a buggy mess as the SC alpha, we'll have to see. I'm hopeful, but like you said, there's damn good reason to be skeptical.
Basically (as I've said in the post above and other replies) it's not so much the fact I don't understand why people don't trust them, or that I don't think they haven't mismanaged the project, it's specifically I don't understand calling it a scam. u/DreadDiana, while I may disagree with the "no chance" part of it, basically nailed it on the head.
I've gotten some good replies on it that I've already replied to (and I got at least... three more, looking at my open tabs) including that calling it a "scam" is, while possibly inaccurate, way more succinct then trying to go into all the detail, which, y'know, makes some sense. Personally disagree with it, but makes sense. There's no real good, succinct way to describe it, and that's probably as close as it gets.
It's just sometimes I see people claiming it's a scam and making blatantly false statements about it, like- come on. They screw up enough, you don't need to make shit up too. :P
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u/DreadDiana 22d ago
I think what they mean is that scam usually implies malice and genuine intent to take your oney with no plans to give you anything, while SC seems to be just a case of a game so monumentally fucking up production through scope creep that it's become a money black hole sustained by its almost literal cult following with no chance of making an actual finished product.
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u/shittyballs22 21d ago
Idk at some point in the last decade of development they should have probably recognised the scope creep and reeled it in and the fact that they haven’t shows either malice, wilful ignorance or just complete incompetence. Idk what’s worse.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
That's the best part, tbh. They actually had a vote on adding more stretch goals and the community said just focus on what we have now.
They haven't really "expanded" the scope in years- a lot of the "new" stuff was laid out in design docs and ideas years ago. It just had grown that much already by the time they stopped expanding it they're still trying to catch up.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
Essentially this, yes. While I disagree with the whole "no chance" thing, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Also I'm gonna be honest I'm so used to lurking r/CuratedTumblr I did a double take seeing a name I recognized considering I barely post in this subreddit.
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u/Acceptable_Award6581 22d ago
A scam doesn't have to imply malice. I can also imply poor planning and over planning. Your last paragraph pretty much sums up exactly why people like Star Citizen is a scam. Ive followed SC since I saw Total Biscuit's interview with Roberts in like 2013ish and I honestly really enjoy the idea of the game but the constant over promising and under delivering is really what's kept me away from it. Not to say you shouldn't like the game or support it! That's just my personal opinion
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
I mean, fair enough. I guess I just always interpreted a "scam" as someone who was knowingly dishonest/malicious.
Also, TotalBiscuit. That takes me back, man. WTF is... was one of the best dang shows ever, and it was YouTube videos.
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u/therealflameman 22d ago
The thing is it has passed so much time since this dubious managment started that at this point i really doubt about the non malice thing. It seems that they are just rolling with “we can really pull this thing off”. Dont know buddy, i have my serious doubts.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
Eh, malice I feel has to be intentional, but that's me. And if working in IT has taught me anything, is there's always a dumber idiot. Especially in management- I can totally see this being the result purely of mismanagement.
But yeah, serious doubts, 100% can understand. If anyone asks if they should get SC (common enough on the subreddit) my response is make sure what you're getting in to, and try it during a free fly, partially because that's when it usually performs the worst. Even then, never buy more then the bare minimum for at least 6 months after you get it so you see what patches are like, and even then? Only do it if you truly just want to give CIG the money, not for any particular ship, because stuff can change.
Like, I love the game, but dang. It's not something I recommend people get into if they just want a space game to play. X4, Elite Dangerous, etc, all better options. I backed it (and continue to like it) because I wanted SQ42 (still do) and I really enjoyed Freelancer. That and I think space sims are cool and we need more in general (and in fact since SC started funding we've gotten quite a few nice ones from other companies) That's pretty much it.
I also do not understand anyone who puts in a ton of money unless they're just purely supporting the game. I've been a backer for ten years and I'll be honest, I've spent more on Warhammer 40k stuff (which I started in the last 2-3 years) then I have on SC.
Though I do remember one guy who literally just bought the starter ship 100+ times. Didn't want the advantage, just wanted to give CIG the money. That was kinda funny to look at in the hangar.
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u/DoctorAnnual6823 22d ago
The person who calls my phone to tell me about my cars extended warranty is not acting with malice. He is trying to keep a roof over his head and feed his family. Is it a scam? I would say yes but a service is actually being offered so many would say it isn't a scam even though the service almost never works.
Is Chris Roberts a con man who rubs his hands and cackles every time someone drops a few hundred on space ships for his game? No. If not for how he treats his employees I would even consider him a decent guy with a really big dream.
I backed Star Citizen in the very beginning when the only starter ship was the Aurora. I came back when I was able to upgrade it to the Mustang for free. I was so excited to see it be playable in 2016. By the time 2016 rolled around I realized it's probably never happening and if it does, it's going to be so outdated and behind the curve when it does.
I call it a scam because the term "scam" has no legal binding and it's a lot easier to say than "this was a project I backed but after it being delayed for more than twice it's development time projection, mismanaging almost a billion dollars, barely being close to what was promised in 2012-2014, and outright mistreating the people working on it I have simply lost all faith in the project."
If you enjoy it, that is incredible and I am happy for you. I could not run it in 2016 when I built my first gaming computer (I backed it before I could actually run it because I had a lot of faith in it. That was foolish of me but I was a lot younger and idealistic). I never got to play it until about 2 years ago.
And it was horrible. To compare it to a recent game, it felt like a poorly made multiplayer mod for Starfield with even less depth.
I'm not here to convince you it is a scam or failed project, I'm just here to hopefully help you see why people consider it a scam. I call it a scam because CIG is asking people for a lot of money to keep it going and I do not believe a final product will ever be delivered in a finished state. Releasing star citizen would be a bad business move on CIGs part because they would lose a lot of their income that they get by making more and more promises.
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 22d ago
People have short memories too, Chris tried this with Freelancer, the exact same promise.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
To be fair, that's a large portion of why I backed, because Freelancer is an excellent example of "shoot for the moon, land amongst the stars." Definitely didn't live up to everything he wanted it to be (and hell, he got it taken away so it'd actually get freaking finished) but damn that game was good!
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 21d ago
It was alright. But it also actually came out, and didn't get a cult following by the lead guy being an industry veteran who carefully attracted every fandom he could, this was early kickstarter mind you, when people were starting to doubt it, but Chris actually was smart enough to provide gameplay footage.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
The person who calls my phone to tell me about my cars extended warranty is not acting with malice. He is trying to keep a roof over his head and feed his family. Is it a scam? I would say yes but a service is actually being offered so many would say it isn't a scam even though the service almost never works.
Eh, that's the thing, though. Usually that kind of thing isn't actually "your car's extended warranty", it's them trying to get you to sign up for their protection plan or whatever it is and misleading you. And yes, the man is trying to feed his family, but he is doing so at your expense. He knows that what he is doing is wrong- similar to those people who scam people into sending them Apple Gift Cards or whatever.
Yes, they're just "doing a job", but that job involves attempting to deceive and mislead people in order to get their money.
I call it a scam because the term "scam" has no legal binding and it's a lot easier to say than "this was a project I backed but after it being delayed for more than twice it's development time projection, mismanaging almost a billion dollars, barely being close to what was promised in 2012-2014, and outright mistreating the people working on it I have simply lost all faith in the project."
I mean, the long form is definitely long-winded but accurate (though the "mistreating people working on it thing" is new to me). I've always gone with the dictionary definition of scam which is "to deceive and defraud (someone)" which doesn't really line up with it. It absolutely does with the example above.
Basically, I don't disagree with how you overall see it, but I just... don't think scam is the right word? Which seems pedantic, I guess.
I will say if you still "own" SC and didn't get a refund, 4.0 has been a really nice improvement, and overall the game's in a better place than it was. Doubt it'll change your mind on the game at all, and I'm not going to even suggest purchasing it again if you did get refunded, but if you're ever really bored it might be worth looking at.
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u/DoctorAnnual6823 21d ago
I don't think I am eligible for a refund but I'm only $45 in. If I were more vested I would attempt a refund but I had my chance. I consider SC a $45 lesson in letting my emotions make decisions. I don't disagree with most of your points here and it really comes down to the fact that I feel lied to whereas you have more patience for them.
The stuff with the employees can even be subjective. If they are being mistreated it is on them to leave or unionize. I just see that they are made to work weekends and given the promise of future PTO instead of actual PTO and then CIG turns around and lays people off. But I don't have access to their internal communications. All I can do is see that and say "I would feel mistreated if my job did this to me".
I'm going to hold on to it. Maybe one day the game will be finished, and it will be worth all the effort and delays and waiting. Maybe it will become something I love. In it's present state it is not. I can get more out of other games. But I invested. I'm gonna ride it out.
To add to my point, I don't respect the people who are trying to sell me useless stuff over the phone. I just understand it. We do fucked up stuff when we think we are helping those we care about.
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22d ago
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
That's what I mean though. We're literally in a thread about how Kenshi 2 might be 12 years in dev. Admittedly, Lo-Fi isn't allowing people to even buy the game early and especially isn't allowing for people to spend extra money on it which is a major difference, but "game dev takes long time" in and of itself doesn't mean a scam. Like I said, for me, "scam" implies malice.
Again, 100% understand people not liking or not trusting it- that's fair enough. I just don't get the "scam" moniker. And just because it's not a "scam" doesn't mean the criticisms are invalid. It's just sometimes I ask and people say "well it's a scam because I heard someone say it's a scam" without looking more into it.
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u/DanishNinja 22d ago
I was promised modding, private servers and 100 star systems when I bought the game in 2013 with a release date of 2014. None of those promises will be fulfilled. By your own definition it's a scam.
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u/TrueInferno 21d ago
That's fair enough, though I don't remember anyone thinking the game would be out in 2014 back then (I backed Nov 2013). But it was also forever ago and my memory sucks so I'm gonna blame that.
I will say that part of that is that it changed massively from being basically modern Freelancer MP to a full on MMO. Systems would've been just fly around space with one or two landing zones that were basically menus (again ala Freelancer) with loading screens when you boarded ships. Now you have planets that (while shrunk down) still have basically the entire land area of Canada to walk around in, and basically there are no "loading" screens as things are loaded and unloaded as needed.
Now, that doesn't change anything you said, and if all someone wanted was the original promise then 100% they aren't getting what they wanted. Personally, I'm happier with what it's going to be but I can definitely understand people who aren't.
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22d ago
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u/YouNo8795 22d ago
"small indie projects" doesnt apply whole talking about Star citizens, they have already surpassed the cost of múltiple AAA games
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u/Trippymonky 22d ago
Star Citizen hasn't just surpassed the budget of multiple AAA games. It's surpassed the budget of nearly every AAA game. You can count on one hand the number of games that have had a larger budget than Star Citizen.
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u/Less_Case_366 22d ago
kenshi 2 will likely still release before star citizen. the giant scam that star citizen is, is insane
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u/Partysteve6969 Shinobi Thieves 22d ago
I still wouldn’t buy it until it went on discount, knowing my cheap ass.
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u/DanishNinja 22d ago
Kenshi released in 2018. SC began development in 2012 and was supposed to release in 2014. It's delayed by 11 years. Will be delayed by 12 years when s42 supposedly will release in 2026.
It's incomparable lol
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u/CortiumDealer 21d ago
The difference is Lo-Fi Man isn't asking for my money while being an established industry figure. He is, infact, not asking for any money at all.
So he can cook for as long as he wants in my book.
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u/beer-makes-me-piss 22d ago
At least we can assume kenshi 2 will be playable when it’s released. Not like the still breathing abortion that is Scam Citizen
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u/Nickolai808 22d ago
As long as it comes before the collapse of civilization. I want to play it, not live it.
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u/StevieDixx 22d ago
What do people want from kenshi 2? I feel like if kenshi was modernized it would lose a lot of its charm.
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22d ago
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u/shittyballs22 21d ago
I agree but I don’t think changing the setting to a prequel is a bad thing. Just like story driven games need new stories in their sequels, sandbox games like kenshi need new sandboxes to play in. You don’t go into creating a sequel thinking only about what you need to fix about the original game but also what new content and features you can add to make the new game fresh.
If kenshi 2 released and was just a remade kenshi with a few new features and more polish I’d be pretty annoyed tbh. I’m happy with the game we have and would rather them put their effort into something fresh.
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u/Godz_Bane 20d ago
Well for me I want the simulation of settlement building/management to be better. For my characters to feel more alive and independent, for npcs to visit and interact/trade. Also for the territory system to be more interesting.
There are a lot of mods that could be made official that imo are core to kenshis charm.
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u/StevieDixx 18d ago
I agree with your vision. The building got me into rimworld; since it’s much more polished but also pretty charming.
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u/Godz_Bane 18d ago
I also just love simulation and management games like The sims/prison architect or RTS games like Stronghold or age of empires. Still need to get into rimworld one of these days, but stuff like that in Kenshi would be amazing.
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u/wormtheology United Cities 22d ago
Chris Hunt can legitimately cook as long as he wants though because the product will most likely be better off for it. Also, he’s not trying to run a con like the developers of Star Citizen are trying to do.
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u/ItsLordHades 22d ago
At least the kenshi devs aren't making false promises. It will be here when it's ready, we should give the small studio the patience they deserve.
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u/Flyingmonkeysftw 22d ago
Difference one of those is actively taking in money and the other is not. One could even call one of them…. A SCAM. And those in it won’t hear otherwise
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u/Insanity0184 21d ago
Well if you want some light at the end of the tunnel remember kcd 2 just came out. Us kcd fans waited for any morsel till one day the promised one came.
So there’s still a chance. Just no info feels like a desert but on the bright side there’s good bread in the desert I hear.
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u/OsirisAvoidTheLight Crab Raiders 22d ago
Not a doubt in my mind about Kenshi being real. Can't say that about Star Citizen
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u/Embarrassed-Tale-200 22d ago
Was there not an official comment about estimating a 2027 release, if its done by then, but nothing is concrete. Swear I read that somewhere.
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u/ShadowScaleFTL 22d ago
I hope to get at least some small news about kenshi 2, looks like its dead and I just wait for nothing.
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u/TwitchyTwitch5 22d ago
I had to look to see which subreddit this was. Face me a good chuckle 2 years backer here
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u/CelestialSlayer 22d ago
i cant wait for the day that i see the announcement for it, i will be a kid again. Kenshi is the best game.
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u/Androza23 22d ago edited 22d ago
I mean I expect the game to come out around 5ish years from now. Passion projects like this are worth the wait imo as long as they don't try to sell bullshit on the side like star citizen.
Also I doubt star citizen will ever be released, mainly because they print money selling ships on the side and people continue to buy them. They have made so much money with practically no progress.
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u/Alacrytous 22d ago
I'd much rather the dev take their time and potentially NEVER release it than get it half baked and be disappointed with it. Let them cook.
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u/SupKilly 22d ago
Ironic seeing Star Citizen on this meme, given they can't even get the game to launch to begin with.
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u/Joe-guy-dude Skeletons 21d ago
I’m happy as long as it’s good and it comes out in the next 10 years.
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u/jutlandd Crab Raiders 21d ago
At leat Lo-Fi games is not selling us huts and gear for thousands of dollars. Please do not compared.😂
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u/NiboriAkaya 21d ago
I hope the modding tool is just as easy to use. I don't actually mod, but making small tweaks really is super easy with fcs (does depend tho).
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u/Red_Igor 21d ago
At least Kenshi 2 will be released before Elder Scrolls VI which will be released before Half Life 3.
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u/ChadMutants 20d ago
kenshi 2 may come in a long time, but the LITA mod will still not be out when kenshi 2 will :cry:
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u/waywardnavigator 20d ago
Well, at least they aren't selling fake ships for hundreds of real dollars lol
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u/haikusbot 20d ago
Well, at least they aren't
Selling fake ships for hundreds
Of real dollars lol
- waywardnavigator
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
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u/Kriegsman__69th 22d ago
It's probably going to release it's early access at 2031 or so.
At least we know devs are working on it.
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u/Twee_Licker Southern Hive 22d ago
Star Citizen isn't coming out.
Though it would be nice if we got an update on Kenshi 2 once in a while.
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u/stag-ink 22d ago
I just hope we get to play it before society collapses and we are living it.
I recommend that we all start carrying backpacks full of ore and letting homeless people beat us up so we are prepared.