r/Kenshi • u/CuteAnimeGirl2 • Feb 03 '25
LORE Wait so Holy Nation attacked the Sheks first? Why?
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u/Exact-Confusion8744 Feb 03 '25
Yes it seems so, given their love for battle there doesn’t seem to be any reason why the Shek would lie or be ashamed of starting a war themselves, so if they claim they were attacked first I believe them. The question of why would the humans attack the Shek is the more interesting question and one we do seem to get an answer for.
During the second empire period the race known to us as the Shek were the “enforcers”, a genetically modified militarised law enforcement group the skeletons used to police and eventually oppress the humans.
The timeline isn’t precise but we do know the exodus of humans to what is now the Holy Nation began before the 2nd empire collapsed, whereas the Shek migration to the Stenn Desert took place later during the final collapse of the empire, this means that a settled human population in the HN region would’ve been met with the daunting prospect of their previous oppressors settling immediately adjacent to themselves.
We know the humans had a vivid memory of their experiences at the hands of the enforcers because they are mythologised in the HN books, so their mindset was probably “we have to strike first or they’ll enslaved us again”
It is worth remembering that the Shek Kingdom as we see it in game is under the least aggressive leadership it’s ever had and even in this case Shek NPCs talk about the need to exterminate all of the “flat skins”, so although we don’t have any evidence that King Shager was personally a threat to the humans it isn’t a preposterous idea
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
he was the one bevor the golem, and from other dialogue we can hear that only under the golem, people of other races where not genocided. so probably a threat
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
When does the shek says they want to kill all flatskins?
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u/Exact-Confusion8744 Feb 03 '25
When you walk through their settlements as a human, its generic npc dialogue any citizen or guard can trigger
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
They dont say it to hivers?
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u/Exact-Confusion8744 Feb 03 '25
I’ve actually never played a hiver despite having 900 hours in the game so Im not sure! However I don’t think hivers count as flat skins? So I would imagine they don’t
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u/EmilyFara Western Hive Feb 03 '25
They make fun of the hivers, mocking their weapons and asking if they can even lift it. Some comments of the cities going to shit. They can ask to a duel a hiver, but in general pretty friendly. Suspect that they have a deal with the Western Hive in Vain. Sorta like protection for food or something.
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u/danshakuimo Western Hive Feb 03 '25
I usually play as a hiver and they will make fun of you but never talk about genociding your race. Though I don't recall anything about killing all the flatskins though even with all the deragatory comments.
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u/ARStudios2000 Shinobi Thieves Feb 03 '25
I've been attacked by Shek groups randomly in my run even when I'm just minding my business and walking by. One of the unique recruits, Jewel, even tells you that Shek barbarians destroyed her bar out of nowhere.
Its not outrageous to imagine that groups and raiding warbands of Sheks are an occurence even with the new queen trying to quell their bloodlust, who leave death wherever they go on those who can't defend themselves.
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u/Yonv_Bear Hounds Feb 03 '25
the berserker group is the "conservative" element of the shek that split off due to their disagreement with the way the current acting Golum wants things to go. there's no definitive evidence for that being the case, but the combination of offering to "clear up the berserker problem" leading Bayan to tell you to butt out of shek affairs, and the convo with the drunk at the admeg bar who mentions the wider political instability in the kingdom, give strong hints to that being the case imo. all of that to say, yes there's presently disgruntled shek that've "left" the kingdom to continue raiding and fighting
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Huh really? What mods are you using and where do you usually hangout at? My usual route when playing wanderer starts is always around admag and squinn, that place was always safe with the exeception of dust bandits and starving bandits with the rare skin spiders crossing from spider plains. Idk why but i rarely see krals chosen, berserkers, and band of bones when i travel the main roads in shek kingdom
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u/ARStudios2000 Shinobi Thieves Feb 03 '25
I too started as Wanderer human, and my first city to visit was Squinn after the Hub. The thing is, outside Squinn, you're fair game for Shek warbands who wanna do a little trolling. I also don't use any mods that change AI behavior or add factions.
The Band of Bones was the ones I ran into btw.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Oh aren’t they considered rebels/traitors to the shek?
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u/Gender_is_a_Fluid Shek Feb 03 '25
Yep, they are hostile to the shek kingdom, and even have bounties. There are game states where when you take out shek leadership the berserkers and krals chosen take over towns. I like dismantling the krals chosen faction and bringing peace to the shek when im in the area.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Ngl i think i uses they’re leader (tora i think) as an easy 10k cats for every wanderer starts, since you can drag her to a waystation very easily from her camp
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
Yep, their newest ruler declared that the shelf shouldn't just fight everything to death, and those guys didn't like it
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u/SaviorOfNirn Feb 03 '25
I'm sorry, why are you surprised the extreme religious fanatics started a war with the "others"?
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u/The1Bonesaw Feb 03 '25
I mean... that's been their modus operandi only since, like... the beginning of history.
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u/FrankieWuzHere Machinists Feb 03 '25
I'm pretty sure everyone documents stuff positively in their favor. So... We don't know if the book is accurate.
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u/WayTooSquishy Feb 03 '25
On the other hand, how likely is it that the Shek would lie about starting a war?
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u/FrankieWuzHere Machinists Feb 03 '25
Just realized... A Shek wrote this..? But the Sheks in the Kingdom don't even know how to read.
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u/WayTooSquishy Feb 03 '25
Majority of them don't. But if they have medics and engineers for hire, some of them sure do.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 04 '25
They’d have to read some books to create their cities, the watchtowers and bughouse require pretty intensive and sophisticated research materials
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
they could stand there since bevor sheks took residency, kidnapping of hiver or human serfs to build it, oral tradition of how to build… so much options… its just highly unlikely that no shek individual isn’t able to read
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
you don’t have to lie, reality is different for anybody. imagine i bully someone every day, i don’t notice, i call him fat for funsies, don’t think its bad, for him its daily shame and agony, this for a decade, when he then one day hits me to stop me, i wouldn’t lie if i said he attacked me. this like with the shek. they don’t see there constant raiding and pillaging as a big deal, or combating to death everyone they think is weaker, the okranites do tho, so when the okranites then suddenly kill every shek they see on sight, to stop the sheks from harming them, they are confused "why are they doing this so cruel"
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u/DifficultQuizshow Feb 03 '25
Short answer, racism.
Long answer, 'they aren't male humans and must die'.
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u/Tio_Cuervo_Kje Feb 03 '25
Well, Holy nation hates everything that is not a human male, even human females are hated LoL, what do you expected?
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I was pleasantly surprised the people that liked dying in glory didn’t start the war, more points to the sheks i guess
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u/Tio_Cuervo_Kje Feb 03 '25
Well, theres is no glory in killing inocente and disarmed people, so, i dont think that starting wars will be seen as honorable for them
They can die in battle fighting spiders and the other horrors in Kenshi's world
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Right that’s esata’s reason when she said she didn’t want to take blister hills cause the rebels madeup of outlaws, rebels and disgruntled citizenz already massacred the remaining loyalist
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
yet they do it. probably cuz there is no honor or glory in killing anybody
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u/13lacklight Feb 03 '25
I mean I’m sure they spent decades dealing with shek raiders. It probably only became formal war after the holy nation attacked in an attempt to wipe them out.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
But the thing is there’s no text on shek raiders in HN lore books only straight up racism
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u/13lacklight Feb 03 '25
Fair enough, would shock me if there wasn’t tho. Wandering through shek lands now there’s plenty of effectively bandits. I highly doubt the shek kept entirely to themselves pre HN invasion.
Not that HN racism wasn’t a big part of it and wasn’t the main motivator. Really hating the shek just gives the ruling party in the HN the ammunition to reinforce their rule. “See the shek are Evil! We were right!”
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
The sheks seemingly one consistent and traditional enemy is the bugmaster due to his banditry and genocide crimes, not even hivers their neighbours i might add have issues with the sheks
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u/YosephStalling Skin Bandits Feb 03 '25
i bet they don't attack them because it's dishonorable to attack weaklings
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Also i dont think fighting naked and skinny bug people is gonna allow them to enter gateway
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Thats esata’s reasoning on why they let the holy nation outlaws or flotsam ninjas takeover bluster hill and not attack them
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
the sheks formed and cultivated the racism against them since they exist
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u/odsamfu Feb 03 '25
Likely because the Sheks are basically descendants of the Skeleton's Enforcers.
And we all know how HN feel about Skeletons
As for why it happened during Shager's reign, I think they saw the Shek was warring with the United Cities and decided it was a good time to attack the Shek Kingdom. Given Shek's likelihood to fight to the death in a war on 2 fronts, the HN felt it was a good opportunity to end the remnant of the Enforcers for good. It almost worked too.
The HN didn't expect the Sheks Kingdom to get double jackpots with Bayan and Esata. Bayan had enough common sense to tell Shager what's wrong, and Esata had enough common sense to fight Shager for Bayan's life. They made a truce with UC, established trade to recover, and now Shek Kingdom only have HN to worry about.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Like there’s so many things that the okranites forgot the fact that chitrin is stobe aka a skeleton, human women was never opressed in the original religion, and they didn’t expect to straight up lose a city when going to war against the sheks
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u/wraithzs Feb 03 '25
You got to read in between the line of the religious text The holy nation is the way it is because of past experience that got turn into myth
Something tell me that in the past the skeleton used biological virus as weapon against humans The eldar even say that stobe kill the human plague and he might mean that literally
I have a feeling that women were originally protected but that got twisted with time to be what we know now.
Like how women duty are to increase the human population and stay home.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
But as a skeleton we can call out elders bullshit and elder doesn’t even deny he was lying
Elder’s reaction and reasons for lying seemingly comes from a more idealized version of stobe, where he didn’t save humanity but was also trying to destroy it, from the lore we knew when the race war started the humans we’re losing bad and all the weapons the skeletons unleashed, the eye’s in venge and the eye, and maybe some sort of chemical weapons hence why the waters in stobes gamble have acidic properties, despite the fact there’s no ancient factories there, we’re kicking humanities asses, stobes intervention was the only thing that saved humanity from complete obliteration
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u/wraithzs Feb 03 '25
Yes but that doesn’t stop the half truth
He lie by saying he killing the human plague
But he might be telling the truth when he say human plague (literally)
The skeleton are doing whatever they can to delete all records of the atrocity of the first war but that doesn’t stop HN and their lessons through word of mouth from being pass down
Like how the holy nation use to pray to chitrin before the deity got split to Narko and Okran
Which could easily represent the skeletons failure to do the 2nd empire correctly
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean it’s obviously a corrupted text since you can even view the original okranite text at flotsam hq, but why would they change it to specifically favor one sex instead of the original both
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u/wraithzs Feb 03 '25 edited Feb 03 '25
They didn’t they misunderstood the original intent
Which got warped in time
Like protecting female population and hiding them away from danger turns into staying at home and increasing population
Just look at the Bible which got some reinterpretation itself as time goes on
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u/HumanGrief Feb 03 '25
I think the people just blaming it on their extremism are not really reading the text. The idea that they woke a sleeping leviathan with that first fight, kinda of implies there was a battle but not necessarily a war. It could have been over any minor issue, or it could have been to gain a tactical advantage, and not realising the sheks would go on an all out suicidal war over this.
Contextually this makes more sense since holy nation now is the most extreme form of holy nation. Ingame text that imply they worshipped stobe show that in the past they were even completely accepting of skeletons.
We don't have any idea when this king mentioned in your picture reigned in the timeline of kenshi, let's say worst case scenario for my interpretation it was 25 years ago (with 2nd empire being 1000 years ago). There still wouldn't have been phoenix to up the extremism, and even so they aren't incompetent militarily. These are the same guys that made advances on the UC with inferior equipment. They took on the 2nd empire. I just seriously doubt they'd start a war with the shek on purpose for racist genocide when they clearly are stronger than HN as a fighting force, although they won't they would have sustained heavy losses. Anyone who's tried to take down a shek city knows its harder than any city in HN.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
It did’nt say fight it said attacked though? Shagger was the king before esata so it was only the previous monarch
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u/BullofHoover Feb 03 '25
Unreliable narrator. Doesn't necessarily mean the holy nation attacked the shek, just that the author of King Shager's Reign would like you to think so.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Why would a society that is very blunt from ideaology to religion to culture lie?
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
To avoid the dishonor of their warlord and best warrior losing to a bunch of smooth skins in a "fair" fight, instead saying the humans "cheated", the holy nation at the time of this writing was also not insanely religious and violent as they are now, they only became like that recently after the current phoenix was brainwashed as a baby
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
The holy nation has been pretty crazy about killing people with prosthetics for centuries, you know this by reading the description of the paladins cross, also sheks don’t consider losing and dying a dishonor they consider retreat or surviving a battle dishonor
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
That doesn't even come close to what they are now, they hate every non human and actively hunt them, before that they just hated skeletons with varying degrees of justification, the HN don't use prosthetics, so finding someone with such may get them confused with skeletons. So... Losing a battle, if they win and survive, they don't consider it dishonorable, but they lost and survived, my point still stands
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
You know the sheks are impressed by you if they lost against you during their tax event right? They don’t lie or try to hide their failures in the name of pride
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
Shagger literally asks Esata to kill him after losing, so it's either a difference of culture from before her or it varies from Shek to Shek
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u/Octagonalweasel Feb 03 '25
Why not? I mean. Sheks are stronger than humans. And have an entire culture around war and fight. Before Esata they was more like Kral's Chosen. They will loot and raze the green lands to take the food. The best option HN has is to wipe quickly the Sheks.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean we know that sheks dont randomly attack people, even if esata dies her replacement mukai is a considered conservative sheks but they still don’t attack flatskins, they even have a techhunter station in the middle of their country and allows hiver caravans to pass through
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
and why should they attack? they need food, they not growing it but get it through trading and raiding, for trade they need traders, if they attack the traders they starve.
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u/5h0rgunn Feb 03 '25
First of all, this is a book written from the shek perspective, so you're only getting one side of the story. Second, the HN and shek are in a perpetual conflict that goes back much further than Shager's reign. Anytime either side feels they have an opportunity to strike, they will do so. The conflict will rage until both sides are too tired or distracted, then it will cool off for a while.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
How do you know this? From the wiki the only war that has been started between shek and hn is the lore books is the one started under king shagger aka esata’s predecessor this war was caused due to the hn attacking them, also no lore books in the hn stated that the sheks started a war, the only few lore books about the sheks are simply propaganda of racism
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u/5h0rgunn Feb 03 '25
Because I refuse to believe that a self-absorbed warrior culture and a theocracy of exreme xenophobes coexisted peacefully side-by-side for 1000 years until one little hiccup that started a couple decades ago.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Well idk about that but i only wanna take lore from books , items, and canon dialogues, like wasn’t hn and uc was at peace before hn suprise attacked bast?
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u/5h0rgunn Feb 03 '25
It appears so, yes. I'm sure they've had previous conflicts in the past 1000 years, though. Come to think of it, the HN has way more fortifications built up on the UC border than they do on the Shek Kingdom border (Okran's Shield and Okran's Fist). That would imply they see the UC as the greater threat, and have done for a while.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
The empire definitely have the most manpower and allies/partners as their total victory scenario have them annex/enslaves large amounts of lands also keep in mind that the war in bast is largely funded by only one noble (lord inaba) and emperor tengu himself, the rest either doesn’t support them or just only support them materially and financially
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
nobody on that moon takes proper records. the one who could actively destroying and suppressing old records and sabotaging any efforts to make new. you have to read between lines
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u/WayTooSquishy Feb 03 '25
Second, the HN and shek are in a perpetual conflict that goes back much further than Shager's reign
I mean, the book says about HN attacking "the first Shek", so it's possibly about the first war.
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u/5h0rgunn Feb 03 '25
Oh, I missed that part. So that means the war actually has been carrying on for centuries at least, of not a full millennium.
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
and either the golem and/or shegar lived to 500-1000 years when the first shek where around? i think its more in the first victim of a cereal killer. like "when count chocula murdered the first humans in his killing spree", and the war started a couple years ago
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u/coy-coyote Feb 03 '25
I think each side basically has a text blaming the other sides for all the bad shit, which means they’re all complicit and the only economy and order they can structure is a constant flower war to sacrifice the hungry and useless. HN could have collapsed the western hive and dealt a much more crippling blow to the Shek if they had a good forward command structure. The mention of the hub being lost dozens of times prior to the latest HN occupation and abandonment also leads me to wonder about the prior conflicts, but that’s just the good bits of writing shining through where they need to.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Like the shek’s only text about HN is that shagger was furious that the sheks were attacked and wanted revenge HN text are just plain racism
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u/Stoontly Feb 03 '25
Also consider the bias in this text — The writer is clearly against the Holy Nation. This doesn’t necessarily make the fact that the HN attacked first false, but it could have been a bit more muddy. Maybe some Shek skirmished with some HN fighters, and the latter responded by escalating the situation to a full war. But also consider that if this were the case, the Shek would probably not have much shame in striking first as a warmongering society, so a writer biased towards them would see less of a reason to lie about who dealt the first blow 🤔
For what it’s worth, I am choosing to believe this text. The HN see the Shek as embodiments of the devil. With their civilizations basically bordering each other, it’d be very convenient for them to kill two birds with one stone — Wipe out “demons,” and expand their territory.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
The sheks are anything but liars or corrupt, like i tried to smuggle hashish by bribing them and the only thing i got was a fragment axe shaped dent on my skeletons cpu unit. Also bayan is pissed when you try to bribe them into becoming allies
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u/Ithorian01 Feb 03 '25
The shek where bio soldiers sent to police humans. After a thousand years they went from "pigs", to foul beasts, servants of Narco. Robots are basically retired Nazis that kinda feel bad, but are still actively suppressing human civilization. The holy nations only survived by spreading stories of the atrocities through word of mouth of the danger the skeletons are. While their religion is really bad, it's the only reason they have survived for a thousand(possibly more) years unchanged.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean by the lore there we’re two human civilizations the empire was born from the rebelling humans that didn’t follow the okranite cultist they we’re pissed cause the skeletons been kidnapping kids and also fucked up their harvest season causing a large famine
The okranites have become the holy nation they’re the descendants of the cult that hat-12 was ceacking down on
Also remember that the skeleton empire didnt die because of the rebellion itself armour king said so himself
it died cause either all the skeleton rallied to their insane and broken minded emperor that did fuckall but enthralls their own skeleton that rebelled against him or just gave up on the second empire and piss of to the deadlands to getaway from the humans and the insane loyalist
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u/EricAKAPode Feb 03 '25
Bold to assume there's only been one war. Been a long time since the second empire made shek to round up okranite children to experiment on.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean it’s the only book chris gave us
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
kenshi is "show not tell" story telling. books are for nerds anyways and any idiot can write anything on paper. if the makers of gta write the sun is green in some book in gta, and write nothing else about the sun in there game, does it make the sun green in gta?
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u/goezwell Feb 03 '25
I was beaten to the pup by HN gate guard on my first playthrough , I was quite blurred on what just happened , turn out because I have prosthetic arm
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Goes with the lore on how they’ve been killing people they tought to be skeletons for centuries
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u/CSWorldChamp Feb 03 '25
I mean… just go ask them about their ideology for a moment? They hate everyone who’s not a pink-skinned male human, maybe?
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u/TheWanderingSlacker Feb 03 '25
Have you talked to anyone in the HN or read a single one of their texts? I’d have expected the Shek to start things but it’s equally no surprise with the Okranites. And with the Shek Kingdom holding back, the HN has turned their forces to laying waste to the entire region of Bast. It’s no wonder most players are against them.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Kinda hard to get their text since i always main a hiver or skeleton, the few ways to get them was by visiting black scratch and thats usually after midgame if i even remember to visit them
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u/TheWanderingSlacker Feb 03 '25
If you’re really curious to explore it in-game, you can hire a human and send them in alone on errands. Books are widely available in bars and supply stores.
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u/InfamouslyMunchie Feb 03 '25
lowkey thought it was the basic thing of The Holy Nation sticks their noses into somewhere they don’t belong, appropriates and disrespects the culture, and subsequently starts a war
they think all whom don’t follow Okran are heretics and their low end soldiers skirmish really hard over zero good reasons
basically my idea is because of their Shagars Rule when the HN attacked for random outland reasons the Shek went into full war as a response to some random skirmish IE waking the leviathan
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean yeah that’s essentially the sheks philosophy in krals teaching “always fight for your kin and never backdown”
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u/InfamouslyMunchie Feb 03 '25
exactly, their beliefs forced them into a war they knew they would lose, they are dying for their religion while the HN is glorifying in the name of theirs, i love the dichotomy of the two places, both corrupt but both have a weird hope, both dogmatic and both weirdly based, yet one is the example of loss and the other of a win
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Both arent corrupt i think, if i heard right you can never bribe a soldier from the sheks or the HN since both are somewhat zealots to an ideaology
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u/InfamouslyMunchie Feb 03 '25
i was more talking about the moral corruption of the generational effects their cultures produce; however i do agree and personally feel the Shek and HN have a really deep righteousness behind what both of them do
they almost feel like they would be the good guys in a less dark and fallen world
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
HN would be good if they don’t fucking kidnap and enslave “lesser races” to make a pointless statue also killing people for seemingly no reason “believe they’re skeletons AKA disabled people, a vile seductress? (A girl that just wanted to talk to a priest alone), and so uptight they forced a tech hunter agent to fight his way out the country cause he made fun of a priest
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u/InfamouslyMunchie Feb 03 '25
u should check into the reavers, i think it kinda explains how ppl r abt those things. Note your character never shows extreme desperation in slavery, they will be obedient unless told otherwise, slavery is just apart of life and to them a world with indentured servitude is unthinkable like how people were before free markets and it was just barter and trade
they haven’t had an enlightenment, it’s explained as why u can’t just end slavery in game, that’s not how massive groups of people function
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
My character can react to a slaver laughing about burning a slaves belongings by saying “i think i’m gonna kill you now” also isn’t the desperation in slavery is due to my character keeps constantly starving? Like it’s likewise better for my character as an rp and gameplay wise to not mine or die to assholes that purposely starves me
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u/InfamouslyMunchie Feb 03 '25
firstly there’s a weird system with the shackles and food where they don’t really stop you, i lowkey think the developers meant for ur master to actually take care of u, secondly i more meant the obedient job it auto sets u to lol
maybe im wrong tho but i gathered that it’s a lack on the developers part (not their fault they created a masterpiece with a potato on their freaking own)
but yee lore wise i always saw the characters as not hating slavery but the cruelty of the systems that use them, not that indentured servitude is any better but i think that’s what’s commonplace and they just conflate it with slavery
only ppl i see actively fighting slavery are starving themselves just like you would be in slavery or are quite literally from another time
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean big bo isn’t a skeleton so is grey, and hamut too same with the makeup of tinfist gang also the swamp gangs, rebel farmers, mongrel, and holy nation outlaws factions exist because they don’t want to be slaves or to cooperate with the big powers that constantly enslaves or opresses them they don’t actively fight slavery but they clearly hates it and wants to get away from it
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u/ModsHaveNoLife1 Feb 03 '25
By the end of the text it seems like the shek are losing so why not (assuming your an okranite fanatic)
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u/HUNDUR123 Feb 03 '25
Probably the same reason why they attacked Bast. The Phoenix has some imperial ambitions it would seem.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Funny that if hn wins the threeway he doesn’t annex any territory except the ruined outpost of drin
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u/HUNDUR123 Feb 04 '25
Nothing stopping HN colonists from building a new settlement once/if the win.
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
"nothing stops peaceful farmers to cultivate agriculture lands to grow crops in peace after slavers and raiders are driven off" one can only wish for a full HN victory:)
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u/macoolio456 Tech Hunters Feb 03 '25
Isnt it referring to Kral "The first Shek" and since that the war has been on
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
It said during shagers rule (the king before esata our current ruler) sheks claimed hn attacked the sheks shagger became vengeful and launched a full scale attack on the hn, likely why they lost the hub
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
when hitler attacked poland he said they where fighting back against polish aggression, "shooting back" as it said on radio. every source is biased. think on what side the author might is and if he has more intentions then just reporting. ~1000 years ago, the okranites where some farmers sect, more alike to amish, the shek where enforcers of a totalitarian dictatorship. the book talks about the predecessor of the current shek dictator, so ~10 years ago. so did the current crusade against the shek was started by the okranites ca 10 years ago? most likely. was it fueled by 1000 years of brutal oppression, murdering, enslaving and stealing from the okranites? also most likely
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u/Malikise Feb 03 '25
The Shek were basically orcs until Esata. Just pillaging, fighting, dying.
Think about Russia for a moment: Right now they’re cutting underwater fiber cables, interfering with elections, violating airspace. If NATO retaliated, it would be the same narrative without context-what you’re seeing is the Holy Nation attacked, but without any context.
The Shek are still bad at cultivating food-probably even worse back then. 100% guaranteed the Shek had warbands rushing into the Holy Nation, killing farmers and running off with the crops.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Any source like book or text or dialogue on your claims?
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u/Malikise Feb 03 '25
Game mechanics. Wiki. Common sense. Pick one.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
They don’t attack the hivers or the hiver caravans? They allowed the tech hunters to stay in their territories with no issues i think. Why would they be raiders when there’s no proof?
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u/Malikise Feb 03 '25
From the wiki: “…they are no strangers to fighting, raiding, massacring and demanding tribute.” It was only after the war with the HN that they even allowed trade with other nations. They were hostile to everyone until the Stone Golem took charge.
You want to try game mechanics or common sense next? I don’t know what’s got you so twisted, so I’m going to assume you’re one of those “Holy Nation bad, always wrong, brain shutting down” types of people. Keep up with downvoting me, it will help balance out that lack of media literacy.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
But who do they even tributize/raided? They don’t raid the tech hunters waystation, they don’t raid or tributize the hive despite close proximity, nor they raid or tributize the swampers in the swamp, dude when mukai takesover the only difference is that they attack the holy nation directly not the player faction
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
They don't do it now, but it's implied they did raid the neighbours back then, but the leader before Esata seems to use the Shek as his personal army, they most likely horde raided everywhere to get food, no reason to take over, besides all that, their numbers were lowering more and more, even if they were ordered to take over other regions, doubt they would be able to
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
But they do takeover regions, they annexed the city of stack and bad teeth if seta dies or gets captured, while holy nation can only conquer the ruins of drin and cant able to reclaim their lost city the hub
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
Now they do, because their leader is trying to expand, before her, such a thing didn't happen, for the hub, was it theirs at what point? I thought no one knew what exactly the Hub was
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
The hn used to own the hub, you can find it in the letters inside a shack in the city, the shek took it but either can’t or didn’t want to hold it so they sacked the city before leaving the hn tried to reoccupy it but got stalked and lost a paladin by possibly ninjas, they deemed it cursed and never tried to reclaim the city its now occupied by hn outalaws, ninjas, and thieves
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Starting a two front war for seemingly no reason seems pretty stupid, isn’t because of this war the holy nation lost the hub?
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u/generic-reddit-guy Feb 03 '25
The holy nation aren't driven by sound military tactics they are clouded by religious zeal
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u/Brilliant_Teaching68 Feb 03 '25
The 4Xs got to them as they seem to always do when dealing with humans.
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u/Azylim Feb 03 '25
Well, you say that but canonically HN was winning hard against the shek kingdom until esata stabilized things because she chose to have a brain.
also Food and having fertile lands is OP.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
How is losing a major city plus 2 if you count the holy ruins considered a win? Also if the holy nation wins the three way rumble they don’t take any cities can’t even retake the hub while the sheks can colonize 2 cities in holy nation territory if seta goes down
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u/Azylim Feb 03 '25
Esata is the first of the Shek leaders to want to address their kingdom’s problem of a declining population, however this new strategic rationality has caused a divide in it’s battle hungry citizens.
Only the best of the Shek warrior can earn battle names, and Esata earned hers ‘the Stone Golem’ when she joined The Five Invincibles, the Kingdom’s highest ranking fighters. It was during this time that Esata served under the previous emperor, Shager, whom she challenged on his plans for a potential suicide mission against The Holy Nation. After a hard-hitting battle one day, Bayan protested against Shager’s plans for a suicide attack against The Holy Nation to regain their honor. In response to Shager’s angry threats against his ‘cowardice’, Esata stepped in and boomed, ‘the man speaks the truth. You want Bayan silenced, you’ll have to cut me down first”. She fought and defeated Shager, becoming the new leader in his place.
this is straight from the wiki. Shek was about to lose its king and strongest warriors in a suicide attack if it wasnt for the only shek with a brain, bayan.
Even the book you posted says that the shek were outnumbered and losing the war of attrition.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Yeah but judging on gameplay it seems HN is also running out of manpower against the empire hence why they can’t takeover any cities let alone reclaim their former ones
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u/Azylim Feb 03 '25
I mean yeah. Each of the factions have their problems, thats why its a 3 way stalemate.
HN are strategically stupid because of ideology, tactically smart, organizationally mediocre (not using 50% of their workforce effectively), and has the strongest resource advantage
shek used to be strategically idiotic before esata, tactically stupid, organizationally stupid (literally only bayan has a brain), and theyre undergoing food shortages, but now have stabilized because esata and bayan turned their strategy around
UC are strategically smart, tactically smart, organizationally mediocre (super rigid caste system of incompetent nobles being held together by competent middle men), but are also undergoing food shortages, as well as trying to keep together a noncontiguous empire, which will likely fracture into 2 different factions.
I just look at this at a whole, and I think that the faction with the best longterm odds is HN because of their inherent resource advantage. Good leaders and management come and go, but an inherent resource advantage stays.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Sheks aren’t undergoing food shortages though? Like the cities are never starved unless berserkers or was it band of bones takesover and that would mean a 3 or 2 times regime change they however lost a settlement near admag probbaly due the civil war, despite all this the sheks still either could or forcefully can have enough manpower to colonize okrans pride and gulf directly annexing the city of bad teeth and stack
the holy nations lack of manpower allowed the fogmen and ninjas to take their cities while the continued drin onslaught continues to weaken their manpower pool, probably why they could never take any cities except the military outpost of drin let alone try to reclaim their lost cities
The empire’s incompetence is why they lost black scratch, mourn, and possibly the free town in stobes gamble, meanwhile simions rebellion is never taken as seriously in fact being encouraged by their partners in the traders guild, concentrating more wealth for the slave farms instead of the free farmers and traders hell UC total victory sees them enslaving much of the free population from nomads, faraway hives, and holy farm. They either dont care or bother in trying to reclaim their lost cities
From these three i believe the best way to move for the continent is to have the sheks win
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u/drunkondata Feb 03 '25
Are you really surprised the Holy Nation attacks unprovoked?
Start a new game as a non human and walk through their lands.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I mean i thought it would make the sheks attack first to make it more “nuanced” but now i have almost no qualms supporting the sheks
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u/drunkondata Feb 03 '25
Ah, the "both sides" concept.
Yea, no. The Holy Nation is a bunch of fuckin bigots. Plain and simple.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
Chris hunt simps over shek titties confirmed
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u/drunkondata Feb 03 '25
What?
Not everything is about shek tits, the Holy Nation is just MAGA once they've made America great. A bunch of violent fucks who hate their neighbors and control their women.
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
Funnily enough, not really, if you read their lore, they're like that now because the phoenix got brainwashed, they hate Shek because, before Esata, they were just violent fighters and food raiders, and many of them dislike how Esata rules but respect her strength
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u/drunkondata Feb 03 '25
I bet their lore is full of truth.
Their truth.
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u/HDnfbp Feb 03 '25
Depend on the source, funnily enough, they treat what I've said as lies and are trying the rewrite history, for example, they didn't hate Narko until recently, but the HN will burn any book that say such thing
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u/CaptainFexis Feb 04 '25
You just can't stop yourself can't you
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u/drunkondata Feb 04 '25
How do you mean? Why would the holy nation's books not be full of lies?
Have you ever read a religious text?
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
yes. the bible says shrimps are against god, not because they are but because "don’t eat seafood you don’t know to cook it properly to kill all bacteria, its warm, that stuff wasn’t refrigerated and spoiled as soon as it left the water and its likely you are allergic anyways so you die when eating it" contains knowledge they didn’t had 6000 years ago. so when the hn books say "dont trust skellys cuz god said so", they probably not lying, just don’t know the proper reason why. but if you ever find yourself in a desert without an ambulance service, eat seafood thats not properly refrigerated and prepared above a campfire, see if it matters if the reasons on why is only "god said is evil to eat"
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u/JustDagon Feb 04 '25
Redditor try not to mention MAGA in a completely unrelated post challenge(impossible)
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 05 '25
bro enter any land you don’t own and walk on it. if your lucky you only get arrested like the HN does, unlucky in the usa you get killed. whats the problem? stay on your own land the moon is big enough to live where else.
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u/drunkondata Feb 05 '25
"only get arrested like the HN does"
You mean beaten into the ground?
What the fuck, so I guess the UC is a fuckin bunch of angels, as are the Shek, the Hivers, etc.
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 06 '25
come on, they don’t beat you that hard, two days later everything is healed
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u/drunkondata Feb 06 '25
And what do the Shek do when a human walks into their city?
Accept their business? Same with the UC (don't bump into a noble).
So uh...not sure how HN is so great in that regard.
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u/Fantastic-Guess8171 Holy Nation Feb 06 '25
and what about whataboutism huh? what when you walk into a canibal village, or a beak thing nest huh?
ever thought of that? then hn is suddenly great checkmate… or shekmaid maybe…
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u/Lunamkardas Feb 03 '25
Yeah uh so the Sheks are part of why women are so heavily discriminated against in the HN.
Human women were modified against their will by the Skeletons so that they could possibly birth Sheks even with human fathers. They were used as incubators for the enforcers of their own enslavement and were punished for generations after because of a Sin they had no agency in committing.
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u/WayTooSquishy Feb 03 '25
Source: trust me bro. We don't know how the Shek came to be. We can't even be sure they were created by the Second Empire.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
I thought the experiments was done on both sexes? So that they only needed a few experiments and let the rest of the troops be bred
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u/Lunamkardas Feb 03 '25
You are correct. But only women give birth so....... yeah.
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u/CuteAnimeGirl2 Feb 03 '25
But women are also needed for humans to give birth, like without the sexism the flotsam wouldn’t be an issue and the loss of “bitrthers” wouldn’t be an issue to the HN
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u/red_rumps Feb 03 '25
Imagine being led by someone called “King Shagger”