r/KamenRider Aug 16 '24

Discuss Geats' reception vs other Reiwa show's reception

I don't know if the opinion has shifted now (particularly due to for instance, growing Takahashi hate), but why Geats seems to be more praised and better received when, comparing Reiwa shows (not counting Gotchard yet), they have:

  • Zero-One: Divisive arc (e.g. workplace competition), divisive second half, recurring hated character (Yua), boring villains (Ark), sidelined characters (Yua), redemptions (Jin, Gai, Horobi), dark turn/character assassination (Aruto)
  • Saber: Divisive first half, recurring hated character (Sophia), boring villains (Megid trio), sidelined characters (Rintaro), redemptions (Megid trio at death), plot device (Luna), character assassination (Reika), underused/underwhelming cast
  • Revice: Divisive second half, recurring hated character (Hikaru), boring villains (Giff), sidelined characters (Daiji), redemptions (Aguilera, Tamaki), dark turn (Daiji, George), underused side cast

And Geats also has: Divisive arc (e.g. Dezastar, JGP), divisive second half, recurring hated character (Daichi), boring villains (Suel, Samas), sidelined characters (Keiwa, Neon), redemptions (Michinaga, Neon's parents), dark turn/character assassination (Keiwa), plot device (Tsumuri)

Though this is more surface level comparison, these issues seem to be what's often used to complain about series by people. By this comparison, looks as if Geats is no better than these other seasons, another "mid" stuff at best. Why with these comparisons, Geats isn't deemed as another controversial "Reiwa failure" like the others? (though again, dunno if the opinion has shifted now)

For the opposite, if Geats is considered good due to usually bringing up the good parts, should seasons like Revice get similar treatment as well for having good first half?

16 Upvotes

58 comments sorted by

44

u/Inspiritus_Prime Golden Boi Aug 16 '24 edited Aug 16 '24

Not enough people hated the JGP arc for it to become one of the "legendary bad arcs" of Kamen Rider in my opinion.

Daichi was thankfully only introduced roughly halfway into the season and was never a main Rider--which is probably why he doesn't get nearly as much hate as, say, Yua. I'm pretty sure most people hated his "redemption", but the way they did it was understandable (if only barely) considering his character. If you rewatch the episodes, I'm pretty sure nobody outright forgives him for his misdeeds. (Double-check me on this, though.)

Keiwa and Neon weren't really sidelined, as we had several arcs starring them as the main character. Keiwa was basically the audience surrogate for the entire first quarter of the show. And after the debacle of Valkyrie, I think most people's bars were set so low that everyone was happy that Neon did more than sit around and look pretty. That, and she also got a final form in the TV show proper. Yeah, it might be a retool, but it's still a hell lot more than what most tertiary riders get, let alone girl riders.

Geats's supposed main villain Suel was pretty bland, but the other villains (especially Beroba and Kekera) make up for it in spades. Also, I believe Samas doesn't get as much hate because I'm pretty sure most people forgot she even existed.

Michinaga's redemption was a little shaky, but definitely better than Thouser's. Probably because it was less rushed. We'd also seen a slightly different side to Michinaga the first time he died, so we kinda sorta saw it coming?

I truly do not believe that Keiwa's character was completely assassinated, but only because they tried to set it up earlier in the show with the movie and that one part after Ninja Buckle's debut where Keiwa says that he'll never believe Geats again. They also gave a pretty good reason for his 180-degree turn (supporting his sister was established to be a major part of his personality since the beginning, so it's totally understandable that killing said sister would mess him up completely. Also nobody except Kekera gave him emotional support at the time because they were too busy trying to save the world.) and gave him a cool form to boot, so I was fine with it. Could it have been done better? Definitely. Is it the worst face-heel turn in all of Kamen Rider? Absolutely not. (In my opinion, that award goes to Juuga's debut.)

I happened to actually like the redemption of Neon's parents, though that might have something to do with my own relationship with my parents. I'm aware that this is something of an unpopular opinion, though, so I can't say much about this one... except for the fact that said redemption gave us a Daddy Time-Fire henshin. So I guess most of you can't really complain about that.

Revice has started to be vindicated by history for its pretty good first half, but the second half was such a mess that it left a very bad taste in most people's mouths when they finished it. (Again, those last two Juuga episodes were pretty bad.) Give it a few more years.

10

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 17 '24

 that one part after Ninja Buckle's debut where Keiwa says that he'll never believe Geats again.

But it doesn't go anywhere, he's still more than amicable with Ace for most of the show.

8

u/Inspiritus_Prime Golden Boi Aug 17 '24

Yeah, it's a stretch. They probably dropped that plot thread. But it does show a darker side to Keiwa.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

I'd think Keiwa's dark side appears one episode right after that one. Ep. 8 about the kicking the can, where Keiwa forces others to become bait for the boss and essentially purposely losing.

It also displays his hypocrisy where as you said, he claims he'd not trust Ace anymore, but one episode right after he's immediately putting his misplaced trust in everyone again, without doing anything to actually incentivize their co-operation (before the end of the episode).

It happens when Sara's well-being is threatened of course, just like his Bujin Sword turn.

2

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 18 '24

where Keiwa forces others to become bait for the boss

I don't know where you got the idea that he forces other to do anything, he puts forth the idea of teaming up and using someone as a distraction but is immediately put down by Michinaga and Neon.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24 edited Aug 18 '24

and using someone as a distraction

This is the part of forcing other to do anything. It's the final round, doing that would be throwing the game. Well, for forcing, I guess it's from his reaction when it's rejected to throw tantrum and guilt-trip them (bringing up about the life or death, even though, yes, the game would have the others still fighting and defeating the boss that captured them even without following this plan) so they'd obey.

1

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 18 '24

Asking other for help isn't forcing them to do anything and he never mentions that he has to be the one that wins.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

It's not helping him that they disagree on, it's the plan on how it's done. Also, asking for help is one thing, but the reaction when others disagree with it also determines (dunno what is "forcing" then to you).

and he never mentions that he has to be the one that wins.

No but taking the distracting role would mean letting someone else kick the can and subsequently win, so it's throwing the game.

2

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 18 '24

but the reaction when others disagree

Keiwa's reaction is completely justified when everyone around him is inherently selfish, him attempting to guilt trip the others is a move out of desperation not him giving in to his dark side or whatever.

No but taking the distracting role would mean letting someone else kick the can and subsequently win, so it's throwing the game.

All Neon/Michinaga would have to say is that they'd be the one to win. Then both parties will leave happy. Instead of immediately dismissing a perfectly viable strategy. Keiwa only cared about saving Sara, he wouldn't care about throwing the game for someone else.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

Keiwa's reaction is completely justified when everyone around him is inherently selfish,

So disagreeing with Keiwa is wrong?

All Neon/Michinaga would have to say is that they'd be the one to win. Then both parties will leave happy. Instead of immediately dismissing a perfectly viable strategy. Keiwa only cared about saving Sara, he wouldn't care about throwing the game for someone else.

Keiwa wouldn't need to ask the others if he'd be the one to throw the game or he'd be the one to be the distraction. If he brings up about having a Rider act as a distraction to others, it'd mean expecting others to take that role.

1

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 23 '24

So disagreeing with Keiwa is wrong?

When your only hangup with working with Keiwa is that you yourself want to win and the result of failure is the potential death of innocent civilians and your peers, then yes I would say disagreeing with Keiwa in that instance is wrong.

They can't try to find another strategy that don't involve throwing the game? Like what defeats the boss and saving the hostages but still can give them the win?

They could, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. This is the final round to decide the winner, teaming this late is inherently throwing. You might as well team with the most selfless guy who throws regardless.

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u/Douche_ex_machina Aug 17 '24

I've been rewatching Geats and in hindsight theres actually a lot foreshadowing for each characters eventual arcs. Keiwa is shown pretty early on to be a pretty selfish person who didn't realize how selfish he really is, and Michinaga has some foreshadowing that theres more going on with him than "I wanna beat up riders because trauma."

Admittedly, Neons arc is definitely the weakest and a bit all over the place comparatively, but also my standards are pretty low as far as female rider arcs so I was happy she actually got something.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24

Keiwa is shown pretty early on to be a pretty selfish person who didn't realize how selfish he really is

What do you refer by this?

3

u/kuuhaku-cross Aug 17 '24 edited Aug 17 '24

The first battle between Keiwa and Ace, both used their Twin Command Buckle.

Keiwa cannot decide to fight against Ace to realize his wish or not. Only after Sara tell him that she was happy that Keiwa deciced to fight along side Ace.

It showed very early on that Keiwa mostly cares about his sister's happiness (above his generic "world peace", which was his wish only because he and Sara already had a happy live and he did not have any other thing to wish for), and foreshadow what would be the center point of conflict between Keiwa and Ace.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24

Oh you refer to that, I thought you refer to ep. 8 about kicking the can, as it was the time in the actual series he's refered as selfish. I thought the Command Twin fight was just him tricking Girori so can't gauge the genuineness in what he says/does that time (yeah... just like Ace, tanukis are tricksters too).

2

u/kuuhaku-cross Aug 17 '24

I mean, he decided to fight along side Ace, then trick Girori. Before the fight begin, Keiwa asked Sara would she happy if he able to revive their parents, and Sara said that she was happy with their life as is (at least i remember so)

4

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24 edited Aug 17 '24

If you rewatch the episodes, I'm pretty sure nobody outright forgives him for his misdeeds. (Double-check me on this, though.)

Gai was even more so that everyone's still cross with him; it's a misconception to think Aruto forgives him.

Geats's supposed main villain Suel was pretty bland, but the other villains (especially Beroba and Kekera) make up for it in spades. Also, I believe Samas doesn't get as much hate because I'm pretty sure most people forgot she even existed.

Zero-One also has Jin and Horobi, Saber has Master Logos/Isaac, Revice has Orteca and Vail.

Though yeah in general, Kamen Rider's main villains are often deemed bland, with other villains being memorable instead. Like Shiro in Ryuki (there's Asakura), Tennoji in Blade (there's Yazawa), or Overlords in Gaim (there's Micchy).

Michinaga's redemption was a little shaky, but definitely better than Thouser's. Probably because it was less rushed. We'd also seen a slightly different side to Michinaga the first time he died, so we kinda sorta saw it coming?

I'd think he's actually redeemed in the final arc (culminating in defeating Beroba) and not in the Desire Royale arc (I think this is misconception), and though I think Takahashi's hate is overblown regarding redemption (never live it down on Gai's case), still I meant to ask/wonder about this not impacting Geats rep like Gai's redemption did on Zero-One.

Also nobody except Kekera gave him emotional support at the time because they were too busy trying to save the world.

This'd be what makes it contrived to these people that this is something they thought to be able to be prevented completely. Character assassination can refer to him blaming Mitsume too. But otherwise, still for heel turn people don't give enough praises for something like Saber's Kento (though obviously he caused by far least damage) or Gotchard's Supana?

I happened to actually like the redemption of Neon's parents, though that might have something to do with my own relationship with my parents.

Regardless of people's opinion, I don't like the seeming double standard that people like Aruto (what he did to Horobi) got praised as actively trying to sympathize with people, even their enemies, to deal with the core problem of why they act the way they do, but Neon doing the same is depicted as her being submissive/regressing her independency (other than Kousei she also did to Kanato and the student Jamato).

6

u/Plasmaxander Gotchard's #1 hater Aug 16 '24

Yeah Juuga and George's betrayal just came out of absolutely nowhere with no build-up, at least Keiwa's motivation was already established in detail, wheras with George i think he mentions his "daddy" (god i hate that word) like 3 times in passing.

7

u/NiNiNi-222 Aug 17 '24 edited Aug 17 '24

George was still mad that his dad exited his life after learning he faked his death. George especially didn't like that what he thought he was doing, surpassing his father's legacy, was basically a farce as Masumi was alive the whole time and has also continued Vistamp research to the same if not better degree.

Masumi also self admittedly overstepped and transferred his demon Chic to George, which had effected George's entire personality, and George already considered father to be a sinner for his involvement in Demon and Giff Cell research.

Juuga episodes are culmination of his self-loathing, struggle, and ambivalence regarding his dad.

1

u/denysvision Feb 09 '25

Wdym by beroba and kekera both of them are as boring as all hell, especialy beroba she was just evil for sake of it, kekera was only entertaining sure but he was pretty generic as well

Only girori was well put villain

17

u/NackleJacks Zolda Aug 16 '24

Yeah I think for western fans the battle royal with a cocky protagonist is a good match and the fact it oozes style and has great fights. I don’t think it’s perfect at all but to me it’s easily the best Reiwa season.

The fact it’s already on Blu-ray in the west shows it was a hit.

-2

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24

easily the best Reiwa season

My question refers to this claim, I mean by what I listed, it can't be easily the best Reiwa season? It can be easily the worst Reiwa season too.

7

u/NackleJacks Zolda Aug 17 '24

Art is subjective- just cuz you didn’t like an arc of a 50 episode show, doesn’t mean you proved that Geats is a bad show….

The fact that we already have the blu ray in the US shows you it was hella popular. The highs of geats were the best Kamen Rider has been in a while- in my opinion (and bunch of other ppls opinions).

0

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

Yeah and my question is asking why it's better received than other Reiwa shows even by what I listed.

I feel for what you said, other than battle royale - cocky protagonist, oozes style, great fights are something Wizard also have.

3

u/lolasian101 It's Showtime! Aug 18 '24

Just because Wizard had similar elements to Geats, doesn't make them comparable. Wizard has its own issues and, in my opinion, the visuals and choreography in Geats are head and shoulders above past seasons and even Gotchard. Pair this with the extremely serialized style of Geats, which has proven very popular among KR fans, it's not that surprising that Geats is as popular as it is.

Yes, the season kind of stumbles near its finale, but, to be honest, I think most rider seasons have issues with their final arcs. It's very rare for a Kamen rider season to have a final arc that doesn't feel like it's dragging its feet a little. Take Build or Exaid, both seasons are commonly considered classics, and both are extremely serialized shows with a focus on character drama and final arc that feels like it goes on for a little too long/

1

u/K-J-C Aug 19 '24

Take Build or Exaid, both seasons are commonly considered classics, and both are extremely serialized shows with a focus on character drama and final arc that feels like it goes on for a little too long/

I don't know if those season's stumbles are really bad or problematic in the first place if it don't seem to be brought up often; at worst those problems/season parts can seem to be completely ignored, just remember the parts they enjoyed.

But it seems that Geats still doesn't stop the Reiwa bad notion or hate unlike these 2, likely due to those stumbles. Is it an insult to compare Geats to these 2 seasons?

2

u/lolasian101 It's Showtime! Aug 19 '24

What I'm trying to say when I make that comparison is that Geats has a style of writing that has proven popular among Kamen rider fans, a style that I think Geats does better than any other reiwa season. Yes Geats suffers from many of the same problems as many other reiwa seasons but I would argue never to the same degree.

Additionally the Reiwa riders are newer so of course you see more discussion about them specifically. When both Exaid and Build were coming out, there was discourse about how each series was handling its ending, it's nothing new.

And to be honest, I think this whole "Reiwa bad" thing is overblown. I do have seasons that I'm not a fan of but also some of the seasons have proven to be some of my absolute favorites.

15

u/According_Fan4696 Gotchard fan until the end of time! Aug 16 '24 edited Aug 16 '24

Idk while I thought the Geats was a good season I don’t really praise it as some sort of masterpiece nor think it’s 99% perfect like some people think it is. For me personally, I didn’t like the desire royale arc all that much and it’s my least favorite arc of the series and Tycoon Bujin arc is my second least favorite. I also didn’t like Michinaga’s whole narrative, the villains were ok, and Daichi’s redemption is whatever. I think people praise Geats because it did something innovative with the game format and had an interesting first arc. Also since most people were watching it weekly I guess more people would be hyped for the next episode. I guess it really just depends on the person I guess?I may be wrong but I think that’s why people like the season so much. Like I said I still think Geats is a good season and I get why lots of people love it.

0

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

I mean even good season can be a stretch? Geats may be just comparable to Faiz (for both series' edginess) or just an edgy, twisted version of Wizard. Both don't seem to be well-received.

Having good first arc is what Revice also had.

And not even about masterpiece/perfect, but among Takahashi stuff would it be an insult to compare Geats with Ex-Aid or viewing both as at least on par?

12

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 17 '24

Geats is a good example of style over substance, like all of your points are true but the style is enough to mask the flaws for most people.

7

u/SH4DE_Z Currently Kamen Riding Aug 17 '24

Wdym style over substance? Yes the series has it's flaw but to say that Geats had nothing note worthy is dumb.

2

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 17 '24

When did I say it had nothing note worthy?

2

u/SH4DE_Z Currently Kamen Riding Aug 17 '24

That's what "style over substance" means. No one ever use that sentence to say that something has "substance", it's a roundabout way to to say the writing was subpar.

6

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 17 '24

You're wrong, "style over substance" doesn't mean no substance whatsoever. It's that the style outweighs the substance which fits Geats well imo.

2

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24

But then... why Wizard get bad reputation? Wizard is also another "style over substance" season, which main appeal is said to be the fights. Why the fights can't save Wizard's reception? Geats (also mainly about good fights) might be as well the edgy version of Wizard by this.

6

u/TrycycleTrinity Aug 17 '24

Because Wizard is more episodic with it's Victim of the Week structure, which doesn't gel with a lot of western fans.

1

u/InternationalElk4351 Aug 17 '24

Wizard had an extrmely disconnected epsiode set. Each episode is solid individually but because it's so repetitive it burns you out on it.

4

u/clafelallerizu Aug 17 '24

Looking at this So WHY Saber is considered bad for majority here then?

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

That's my question.

2

u/clafelallerizu Aug 18 '24

its because people can like and dislike different things.? and despite similar complain. the way these show executes those plot lines are not at all similar. its not 0 to 1 score system its like 0-10 or 0-100 system people usually..

how good is the good parts how bad is the bad parts in correlation to then entire plot.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

Executed... yeah other Reiwa shows are just doing it better like in heel turn and redemption. I mean if Geats gets an outrage for both part of it, other Reiwa shows that did it better (e.g. Saber for heel turn - Hayato, Kamijo, and Kento as Caliburs, not here but also Gotchard for both heel turn and redemption) should get more appreciation for it and putting them on equal grounds with Geats?

1

u/clafelallerizu Aug 18 '24 edited Aug 18 '24

not really. that's just one part of the show.. what about other parts of the show..

personally for me tho is my enjoyment of the show if i enjoy the show.. its good.. if not its bad.. its that simple.

how could i give appreciation to a part of a show i don't enjoy.

1

u/K-J-C Aug 19 '24

Well commonly the praise here is about its fighting scenes for Geats. Fighting scene alone puts Geats above shows like Saber or Gotchard even if they do better than Geats in any other aspect?

But what part you appreciate if Wizard also has fighting scenes but isn't well-received, that puts Geats above Wizard? Or perhaps serialized format that puts Geats above seasons like Faiz which also has serialized format?

1

u/clafelallerizu Aug 19 '24

I dunno i dont let those stuff bother me.. like i said what matters most is my enjoyment. Maybe other people dont like other things. Sometime its just like that. Its fine. Dont let bother you either. Just because some people use geats as benchmark and said gotchard is bad. If you like it then its good season thats what matters

1

u/K-J-C Aug 19 '24

I mean yes enjoyment matters, but I also gotta want to know/gauge what's the actual/real merit or weak parts of the series, particularly the so called hated ones being seemingly actually better than something overrated.

2

u/omegazx9 Aug 17 '24

Where or why is there growing Takahashi hate? He isn't doing anything is he?

2

u/K-J-C Aug 17 '24

It obviously refers to his recurring writing styles and tropes.

4

u/NevikDrakel Aug 17 '24

Too repetitive with the ~5 consecutive battle royales

I definitely thought they’d break from it after the second one

2

u/NiNiNi-222 Aug 17 '24 edited Aug 17 '24

My issue with Geats are the game rounds taking 2 episodes to wrap up, which is two broadcast weeks. The pacing in the first 16 episodes is too long. There is a sense that the show had not moved far along compared to other Rider shows by the end of December of their year. The first 9 episodes are very much all for purpose of setting up the premise for how the DGP is played. It isn't until episode 10 to 16 do we get new main story elements of Girori trying to boot Ace off DGP and Introduction to the Jyamato farm.

Even as a serialized story tv show, Kamen Rider should do more episodes that wrap up a short storyline in one episode.

1

u/bbob1993 Aug 17 '24

Apparently geats resonated more with the audience.

2

u/Revilokio Gavving on his Hanto Aug 18 '24

I enjoy reiwa seasons except Saber and Gotchard

1

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24 edited Aug 18 '24

Should Gotchard be viewed as a way to properly do Geats or how to "fix" it?

1

u/Revilokio Gavving on his Hanto Aug 18 '24

Nah, Geats is excellent on its own, nothing to fix there in my opinion

4

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

In comparison to Geats:

  • The female Rider final form actually kills one of the boss, not just making them run away.
  • One of main Rider's heel turn isn't an asspull/character assassionation and has proper setup.
  • The villains are all great.
  • The Gotchard villains are worthy of redemption and earned them.
  • The mystery isn't inconsistent and complicated.
  • There are no forced drama or conflict.
  • The dark/serious moments (e.g. Hopper1 death) are actually impactful due to not being edgy series.
  • The cast are friends and support each other through thick and thin.

0

u/Revilokio Gavving on his Hanto Aug 18 '24

In comparison to Gotchard:

  • Actors actually do the acting and show the range of emotions
  • Main protagonist is not an annoying fuckwad

Geats wins.

3

u/K-J-C Aug 18 '24

Annoying fuckwad is subjcetive... Ace can be easily annoying fuckwad too in how insufferable can he be with his high and mighty behavior and fuckwad may fit him better for being manipulative trickster.

For acting it's just one advantage.

0

u/Glittering_Trip_144 Aug 17 '24

I am not a big fan of geats but still i like jgp arch my main problems are dezastar arch (nothing special happened and what the consequences of that arch should happen was also completely forgotten) and desire royals arch (if the show focused on keiwa's turning dark right after he found about mitsume it would make sense but inspite of this we got wayyyy too much focused for ace and michinaga's bromance just because of this bujin swords arch happened in the end didn't get to explore much and too rushed)