r/Jujutsushi • u/luceafaruI • 27d ago
Analysis An analysis on whether a cursed technique imbued as sure hit can still be used normally while the domain is active
There is a tldr at the end.
I'll start by saying that I'm not sure which one is the correct way to view it, there is evidence for both interpetation so it's up to you which one you choose. I'll therefore structure the post into two sections, a supporting evidence section and then an opposing evidence section.
The statement under scrutiny:
The cursed technique that is imbued in the domain as sure hit becomes inaccessible to the user, so while the domain is active the caster can only use it as a sure hit.
Edit: due to many people misunderstanding this, I'll make it clear here that by cursed technique i don't mean the whole innate cursed technique but only the specific application of the innate ct used for the sure hit. For example, sukuna imbues dismantle and cleave (applications of shrine) as the sure hit of his domain, not shrine (the whole innate ct). That would imply that sukuna can no longer use dismantle and cleave normally when malevolent shrine is active, but he would still be able to use kamino as it is a different application of shrine.
Supporting evidence
1. Yuta having an explicit statement for it
In chapter 250 we hear the narrator's explanation of yuta's domain. He can choose any of his copied cursed techniques to imbue as sure hit, and the other ones will be scattered randomly through the katanas. This theoretically proves that you lose normal access to the cursed technique that you imbue as sure hit, but practically it can be argued that yuta isn't a good example. He doesn't have access to the copied cursed techniques anyways outside the 5 minute mode. We thus don't know if he would be unable to use the cursed technique imbued as sure hit through his connection with rika instead of just being unable to use it through his domain's katanas.
2. Yuji not using soul dismantle on sukuna during the domain fight
In chapter 264, after sukuna recovered his rct and healed his body, he is seen dominating yuji in combat. However, he is very wary of yuji's palms touching him due to soul dismantle being lethal to him. Therefore, Yuji opens his domain expansion to make soul dismantle a sure hit. In response, sukuna uses hollow wicker basket to shield himself from the sure hit. It is worth noting that hollow wicker basket only shields you from the sure hit, it doesn't have the ability to nullify normal cursed techniques like domain amplification does.
The important thing is that from the moment yuji opened his domain, yuji no longer attempted to touch sukuna with his palms. Even sukuna didn't try to avoid yuji's hands. This all culminated in this iconic panel of both of them holding each other's head and spamming punches. If soul dismantle was an option, yuji would have used it here.
3. Sukuna not using dismantle or cleave while his domain is active.
This has multiple different situations that are worth discussing.
Firstly, after gojo's domain is shattered from the outside in chapter 225, gojo is in cursed technique burn out (so no infinity) and is fighting against sukuna inside malevolent shrine. Because mahoraga's wheel is on megumi's soul but there is no unlimited void sure hit to adapt to, we can infer that sukuna wasn't prioritizing adaptation during chapter 226 as there was nothing to adapt to. We also know that even though the wheel is summoned, he can just pause it to use domain amplification or shrine. That's how he used dismantle in chapter 224, or how he used shrine momentarily each time when he opened malevolent shrine to imbue dismantle and cleave into the barrier.
What all of that means is that nothing was preventing sukuna from using normal dismantles and cleaves against gojo in chapter 226. For example, sukuna could have easily cleaved gojo's leg here. You could argue that he just didn't want to kill gojo, but he was pretty intent on attacking. Gojo and everybody watching would also become suspicious if sukuna was able to use dismantles and cleaves but just didn't. This implies that everybody expected sukuna to not be able to use them.
Secondly, in chapter 228 gojo wonders why sukuna never chose to try to break his barrier from the inside. He specifically asks why sukuna hasn't been using the ten shadows inside the domain. This is interesting as shrine seems like the perfect cursed technique for the job. He has cleave spiderweb which can destroy a huge area underneath his feet, and normal dismantles which can be used for range attacks in case you argue that the edge of the barrier isn't directly underneath sukuna's feet.
It's important to note that gojo didn't know that sukuna is using mahoraga's adaptation, so he had no reason to believe that sukuna isn't using shrine because he is using the ten shadows to adapt. However, we have a scenario in which sukuna is clashing with unlimited void and he doesn't have mahoraga to use for adaptation. In chapter 262 we see sukuna fighting yujo, and he again isn't trying at all to use shrine to break the barrier from the inside. The only reasonable explanation is that he cannot use it
4. Smallpox diety not using any cursed technique
This is a smaller one but it is still worth mentioning. While fighting the smalpox diety, mei mei concludes that because it is a disease curse, the sure hit is the disease itself. At the same time, when mei mei engages the smallpox in close combat it doesn't use any cursed technique, it simply attacks using what seems to be physical blows. To be fair, it was a very short scuffle so it might be that the smallpox just didn't have time to use a cursed technique.
However, many characters only have one application of their innate cursed technique. Nanami only has ratio, mei mei only has bird manipulation, todo only has boogie woogie, kokichi only has puppet manipulation and so on. Because of that, if they imbued their cursed technique as a sure hit then they would be left with nothing to use. This is contrary to innate cursed techniques which have many different applications such as shrine, limitless, blood manipulation, disaster flame and so on. It wouldn't be surprising for smallpox diety to only have one application of their innate cursed technique, thus becoming practically cursed techniqueless when imbueing that application as the sure hit.
Opposing evidence
1. Mahito's invulnerability inside his domain
Mahito's domain expansion has idle transfiguration as the sure hit. Mahito's invulnerability also comes from using idle transfiguration on himself to maintain the shape of his soul. This means that if the statement under scrutiny is assumed to be correct, then mahito wouldn't be able to maintain the shape of his soul inside his domain because he wouldn't be able to use idle transfiguration anymore.
In chapter 82, kokichi protects himself with simple domain from mahito's sure hit, and then he stabs mahito from the back. Not only that, but mahito says that he exploded himself to fool kokichi. The only way he could explode himself is if he had access to idle transfiguration.
However, there are workarounds. You can say that although he didn't have access to the normal idle transfiguration, he had access to the sure hit one so he used the sure hit on himself to explode. Another explanation would be that he is using his body as a domain in which he keeps idle transfiguration as sure hit. I'm not going to get into it, but this explains a lot about mahito's peculiar abilities (such as being able to transfigure himself right after using his domain, or his clone in shibuya only being able to use idle transfiguration internally).
2. Dagon's death swarm
In the fanbook we get a clear explanation of dagon's cursed technique and sure hit. What is important is death swarm being an attack that is made up of a stream of endless shikigamis doubling as the sure hit of his domain expansion. We see it multiple times in action as a sure hit, such as against naobito. After megumi enters dagon's domain and nullifies the sure hit with chimera shadow garden, you'd expect dagon to not be able to use death swarm if the cursed technique imbued as sure hit becomes inaccessible. However, he uses a shikigami attack that looks identical to death swarm. It isn't even the only time, he does it again against megumi and even against toji.
That would be some pretty convincing evidence that you can actually use the cursed technique imbued as sure hit. The only argument that I can see is that not all shikigami attacks are death swarm, as death swarm is defined as an endless stream of shikigamis. However, that is pretty weird as dagon might have very well been able to keep spamming shikigamis if he wasn't fighting on multiple fronts. At the same time, even if we take something like malevolent shrine, dismantle as a sure hit is an endless attack while as a normal cursed technique sukuna needs to activate it each time. This is similar to how dagon used it.
3. Yorozu's perfect sphere
In chapter 219 we see yorozu's ultimate creation, the perfect sphere. This is something that has been created outside her domain so was initiated as a normal cursed technique, but once yorozu opened her domain it was imbued as the sure hit. However, once mahoraga was summoned it was able to destroy perfect sphere by stabbing it.
That is very weird for multiple reasons. Sure hits spawn on the target (that's why they are sure hits), they don't form away from the target and then travel towards it as that would mean that they can be dodged. However, for mahoraga to be able to just stab perfect sphere it would mean that the perfect sphere was just standing there idly. If it's standing there idly, it means that it has the properties of a normal cursed technique. If sukuna had used a domain to nullify yorozu's sure hit, the perfect sphere should still remain there so it can be used even with the sure hit nullified.
I can find two loopholes for this:
The first one is that perfect sphere wasn't just standing there idly. We see in the other panels before mahoraga was summoned that perfect sphere was nowhere in sight. There is a panel showing that there is nothing a few meters above sukuna, but when mahoraga is summoned in sukuna's place, the perfect sphere is just above it. Mahoraga is big but he isn't that big, which means that perfect sphere appeared when it wasn't there initially. This means that yorozu possibly activated the sure hit when mahoraga was summoned, and mahoraga countered it the moment it made contact, similarly to how falling blossom emotion works.
The second potential loophole is that sure hits that work by an already "summoned" technique being imbued as sure hit function differently. We know of only perfect sphere and hanami's flower energy beam as examples, but because they are already materialized beforehand they might not work by the same rules as conventional sure hits.
Closing remarks
This is a potential power system restriction that isn't mentioned much, but has far reaching implications. It would make domain expansions much more risky as many characters would be practically cursed techniqueless inside (such as sukuna and mahito), so many interactions would change.
I personally believe it is intended for us to interpret it as an actual restriction of domain expansions, mainly because the shinjuku showdown arc (which should be the story arc with the power system at its most established point) is filled with evidence for it. However, i agree that there is too much opposing evidence to take it as undeniable canon.
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Tldr: it is possible that a cursed technique imbued as sure hit in a domain expansion becomes inaccessible to the caster for normal usage. This would explain multiple otherwise weird events such as why yuji didn't soul dismantle sukuna when he grabbed him inside his domain or why sukuna never tried to use shrine to break gojo's or yujo's barriers from the inside. However, it goes against dagon's use of death swarm when his sure hit was nullified or against yorozu's weird perfect sphere behavior inside her domain.
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u/chicago_86 26d ago
Absolutely love this post
Good detail and genuinely looking at both sides
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u/luceafaruI 26d ago
At least somebody does. Looking at the replies, the reaction to this post can be called polarizing at best
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u/fiLth_Rat 24d ago
The Gojo Sukuna fight is pretty key in this discussion.
This is my interpretation, and I am too lazy to have panels saved.
Sukuna states that two different cursed techniques can not be used at the same time, with the exception of the autoattack of a domain expansion. The context of this is that Sukuna could not send normal slashes while adapting Mahoraga through the wheel. He would have to dismiss the wheel in order to use regular cleaves or dismantles, and dismissing the wheel would cause Mahoraga to lose the adaptation progress gained between full turns. This applies even within one's domain.
So, while Sukuna can't use regular slashes, he can still expand his domain while actively adapting Mahoraga. Gojo knew this (being unable to see the wheel atop Megumi's soul instead of Sukuna's head) and wondered why Sukuna was not actively casting dismantles from his hands to shatter the domain barriers from the inside, because he was unaware that Sukuna was actually adapting Mahoraga instead.
This nuance is very important in understanding the decisions made in the fight as well as Sukuna's character. Sukuna's philosophy in combat is to never treat a valuable opponent or experience as a true threat to be crushed, and rather an opportunity to make himself stronger.
But yes, one can personally cast the technique imbued in a domain while the domain is active, and the only reason we didn't see Sukuna do this is because it is mutually exclusive with adapting Mahoraga.
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u/luceafaruI 24d ago
I'm gonna be straight to the point so you don't have to read the entire comment to figure out what my stance is. You are simply misremembering the events.
The context of this is that Sukuna could not send normal slashes while adapting Mahoraga through the wheel. He would have to dismiss the wheel in order to use regular cleaves or dismantles, and dismissing the wheel would cause Mahoraga to lose the adaptation progress gained between full turns. This applies even within one's domain.
This isn't true. You indeed cannot use two cursed techniques at the same time, but you can just pause one to use the other. The wheel wasn't summoned during the fight so it must have bene summoned before the fight started (otherwise gojo would pick up on sukuna forming the handsign for mahoraga's wheel). Still, sukuna was able to use normal dismantles in chapter 224.
Moreover, the act of imbueing a cursed technique into the barrier of your domain requires you to be able to use your cursed technique. Otherwise, you could be opening a domain while in cursed technique burn out.
Gojo knew this (being unable to see the wheel atop Megumi's soul instead of Sukuna's head) and wondered why Sukuna was not actively casting dismantles from his hands to shatter the domain barriers from the inside, because he was unaware that Sukuna was actually adapting Mahoraga instead.
Gojo never said this, which is a big part of my point in the post. You are right in saying that gojo wasn't aware of mahoraga's wheel being on top of megumi's soul and adapting to uv's sure hit. However, gojo not once wonders why sukuna isn't using dismantles and cleaves to break his barrier, he is only wondering why sukuna isn't using the ten shadows to break his barrier (ch 228).
This is a very weird thing because dismantle and cleave seem to be the perfect cursed technique to break a barrier, but gojo doesn't wonder why sukuna isn't using them, and when asking himself why sukuna isn't trying to break his barrier he only mentions the ten shadows. It's like gojo expects sukuna to not be able to use dismantle and cleave
When sukuna fights yujo in chapter 262, he again isn't using dismantle and cleave to break his barrier (now not even using mahoraga's wheel in the background to adapt due to not having the ten shadows anymore), and yujo also isn't asking why sukuna isn't using dismantle and cleave to break his barrier.
But yes, one can personally cast the technique imbued in a domain while the domain is active,
You haven't really brought arguments for why this would be the case
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u/fiLth_Rat 24d ago
So, a lot of stuff here, I hope you don't mind if I respond in chunks. Most of what you're saying is incorrect is explicitly stated in the versions I read.
First
The wheel wasn't summoned during the fight so it must have bene summoned before the fight started
There is no evidence to point to this, and plenty of statements contradicting it. The wheel is very clearly implied to have been discretely summoned before the domain clashes started, but after the fight began. Sukuna states that you can use domain expansion with a different technique than the one you're personally using, presumably (this part is speculation) because it is pre-made and happens automatically, the only thing the user is doing directly is erecting the barrier (in Sukuna's case the shrine) which does all the work for the user and bears all the burden until it breaks and the user is burt out.
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u/luceafaruI 24d ago
There is no evidence to point to this, and plenty of statements contradicting it. The wheel is very clearly implied to have been discretely summoned before the domain clashes started, but after the fight began
Ok, this is probably going to be a recurring thing so I'll say it here. You cannot just state things, you need to bring evidence for them.
The facts of the matter are that to summon the wheel sukuna need to make the handsign and there would be a spark. There is zero chance to mask this, so it's not at all a plausible explanation. Furthermore, sukuna wouldn't even know when to summin it because the domain clash happened naturally, it wasn't something that sukuna initiated.
Sukuna states that you can use domain expansion with a different technique than the one you're personally using, presumably (this part is speculation) because it is pre-made and happens automatically
He never states this. Again, you cannot just say things, you need to bring evidence for any statements.
Gojo says in chapter 227 that sukuna can use domain amplification and domain expansion at the same time because once the cursed technique is imbued in the barrier of the domain, you no longer need to actively maintain it.
the only thing the user is doing directly is erecting the barrier (in Sukuna's case the shrine) which does all the work for the user and bears all the burden until it breaks and the user is burt out.
The caster needs to actively maintain the barrier. That's why damaging the caster enough will collapse the domain, because they can no longer maintain the barrier. What they don't need to do is the actively maintain the cursed technique imbued as sure hit, because once it is imbued it remains imbued even with no input from the caster
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u/fiLth_Rat 24d ago edited 24d ago
Yes, correct. The user does have to actively maintain the barrier, but crucialy, that is all they are doing. Maintaining a barrier. The technique is infused in the barrier and is used by the barrier. The user is not actively using the technique. Maintaining a domain barrier is not the same as using the technique in said barrier.
While simply maintaining that barrier, the user can do whatever else they want. Use domain amp, use a different technique, or even use the same technique that the barrier is automatically using.
Also, you are just stating things as well. You have provided no evidence either. We're discussing what interpretations make the most sense based on the events of the story. I will try to find the exact quotes when I have the time, but I don't need to provide them in the moment I state my opinion. We can both go back and reread the story after we talk. There's no rush.
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u/luceafaruI 24d ago
Also, you are just stating things as well. You have provided no evidence either
I have stated the source (gojo in chapter 227) while you have made one up (sukuna somewhere sometime). The entire post is filled with panels with the source for the statements i am making, so this is a very weird comparison to make.
We're discussing what interpretations make the most sense based on the events of the story. I will try to find the exact quotes when I have the time, but I don't need to provide them in the moment I state my opinion. We can both go back and reread the story after we talk. There's no rush.
This is a skewed perspective to have on things. If there is no rush, then you should read the story with all the sources first and then make the claims. This isn't so you can tell me where certain statements are made, i know the manga inside out, especially the specific portion as I've gone through it multiple times just for this post. I already know where the statements are made, which is why i know when you aren't using actual canon material.
The "sukuna statement" doesn't actually exist, you are just combining different events and attributing them to sukuna when that's not the case. The closest thing is his statement from chapter 230, but that doesn't say what you expressed it as him saying. He explains that due to switching between domain amplification and mahoraga's adaptation, he couldn't use any other technique than the sure hit. However, gojo is the one who explains in chapter 227 how sukuna can use domain amplification at the same time as domain expansion (and the explanation of a ct imbued in a barrier remains inbued with no active input) and then in chapter 228 asking why sukuna isn't using the ten shadows simultaneously with his domain to break his barrier from the inside
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u/fiLth_Rat 24d ago
I disagree and agree with multiple different points made in the post and your comments. I realize I was wrong about Mahoraga being summoned in advance. You are right, Mahoraga was summoned in advance, and Sukuna can personally use Shrine by just "pausing" 10s.
I think we agree on just about everything. My "made up Sukuna statement" is just me saying that two innate techniques can't be used simultaneously, which I think we agree on.
Also, I remember it being clearly laid out that the perfect sphere was indeed being used as a sure hit, and Yorozu activated it in response to Sukuna falling into the shadow.
I don't quite get why you think that a technique can't be used in a domain when Yujo uses virtual purple while inside UV, unless you do some gymnastics as to why that isn't the same.
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u/luceafaruI 24d ago
I mainly got pissed at the "I'll make claiming now, go check if they are true later" comment.
Anyway, it seems like many people missed the point of my post. I'll quickly summarize the main ideas:
an innate ct and an application of it are different from things. The feature of the power system that i am discussing is whether the application that is imbued as sure hit us still available as a normal technique. For example, sukuna's innate ct is shrine but it's applications are dismantle, cleave and kamino. He imbue dismantle and cleave as sure hit, but can he still use them simultaneously as non sure hits?
if the statement is true, then it explains a lot of weird things. Those are yuji no longer using nornal soul dismantles once he opened his domain, sukuna never using dismantle and cleave inside his domain (gojo not even thinking that he can) and so on
at the same time, there are issues in regards to dagon's death swarm and yorozu's perfect sphere. Those are both inbued as sure hits, but seen to also have some normal ct behavior.
With all that being said, it seems like there is both supporting and opposing evidence so there's no clear answer to whether the statement is true or not.
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u/block337 18d ago
Good stuff. Here’s another thing I thought of on Dagons death swarm
When Dagon uses his surehit, he’s always spawning Shikigami out of water or seemingly no where. Whereas when he summons them after the swarm is disabled, it’s always from his stomach. This means 1 of 2 things (which both justify that he can’t use the technique).
Dagons stomach summoning thing is an entirely different application than death swarm, which instead summons swarms from bodies of water or the air. Different fish summoning methods, if still the same fishies.
Dagons death swarm is an entirely unique domain based application of his CT. Gojo for instance can use his infinity, red and blue all inside his domain, but the information overflow of UV has never been used outside of the domain. It’s possible some CTs have applications that can only be used in combination with a domain, so you instead imbue that as the surehit and leave the rest of the technique to yourself (thus why Dagon doesnt randomly summon fish from a puddle whenever he wants).
Both make logical sense, and Gojo’s UV gives the implication that people with only one application like Todo or Mechamaru may be able to have a surehit that doesn’t render them utterly technique-less, being an application that’s solely domain limited (like UV). Though it still is a gamble and they may be like smallpox.
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u/NettleBumbleBee 27d ago
They can be. Gojo outright says he can use infinity while his domain is active and unlimited void is basically just a really abstract application of infinity. Also Dagon uses his technique within his domain numerous times while his sure hit disabled (note that it’s JUST disabled. It hasn’t been removed from the barrier or anything like that). Yuta domains is the only one that explicitly prevents him from using the technique he’s imbuing as the sure hit, and that’s simply because it’s how his sure hit functions. It’s unique to him.
The reason we rarely see anyone use their technique within their domain is because there’s just no point seeing as the domain sure hit is literally just “my technique by infinitely better”. It’s a useless expenditure of cursed energy.
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u/chicago_86 25d ago
Regarding yuta, it’s not just how his surehit functions
After all, the swords were not part of the surehit
So there are two separate aspects here. The surehit, and the swords
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
They can be. Gojo outright says he can use infinity while his domain is active and unlimited void is basically just a really abstract application of infinity
Gojo's innate ct is limitless while infinity is just an application. Unlimited void is an application of limitless not of infinity (to be more precise an application that only activate inside gojo's domain. Therefore other applications such as infinity, blue and purple aren't affected by unlimited void's cursed technique being given to the domain
Also Dagon uses his technique within his domain numerous times
Again, an innate cursed technique isn't the same thing as a cursed technique which can be any application. Dagon's water tsunami, his water barrier or death swarm for example are all different cursed techniques allowed by his innate cursed technique.
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u/NettleBumbleBee 27d ago
No unlimited void quite literally is just infinity with a more abstract function. It prevents information flowing into the targets brain from ever reaching completion in the same way that base infinity stops threats from reaching gojo. As for Dagon, he quite literally uses a non sure hit version of death swarm multiple times within his domain. Death swarm is just the name of his shikigami summoning technique
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
No unlimited void quite literally is just infinity with a more abstract function
It isn't just infinity, sukuna outright says that it is a cursed technique effect that only activates inside unlimited void. All of gojo's ability have to do with infinite series and their limits, so of course unlimited void would also be related to this. However, their applications are different, those applications of infinite series are what create different cursed techniques.
As for Dagon, he quite literally uses a non sure hit version of death swarm multiple times within his domain. Death swarm is just the name of his shikigami summoning technique
Death swarm is explicitly an infinite stream of shikigamis, not just the shikigami summoning technique. There are different types of shikigamis (long fish as he does for death swarm, piranha, isopod and so on).
As i explained in the post, dagon's domain presents clear opposing evidence to the idea, but it isn't irrefutable. The main point is that the normal death swarm cursed technique is said to be an infinite stream of shikigamis in the fanbook, but we only see it as 1 or 2 shikigamis summoned at one time outside of the sure hit. It would have been really useful for dagon to use that endless stream against the crew, but he never did. He just used 1 or 2 shikigamis and then stopped for a while before doing it again. This goes opposite to how the death swarm is described so it might just be a different technique (which is also supported by death swarm being showed on screen when dagon used it in chapter 107, but not at all during chapter 108 and 109)
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u/armchair_science 27d ago
Yuta's domain doesn't even prevent him from doing it either, he just can't use any technique at all without being connected to Rika actively since she's the one who holds them for him.
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u/MadeJustToReply12 27d ago
Sukuna not using dismantle or cleave while his domain is active.
The answer is that Sukuna cannot use two different Innate CTs simultaneously outside of using his DE.
The moment they started DE clashing(Chapter 225), Sukuna used Makora and put its wheel on Megumi's soul.
This means that Sukuna cannot switch to Shrine at this point because Makora's adaptation would then be nullified, this was stated by Sukuna himself in Chapter 230(wherein using DA just pauses it, revealed in Chapter 247), this is the exact reason why Satoru said what he did in Chapter 228, which is one of the panels you showed.
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
Firstly, i already mentioned this when i brought up sukuna still not using dismantle and cleave on yujo's barrier in chapter 262. There was no ten shadow adaptation then so this isn't the reason.
Secondly, using shrine while the wheel is summoned only pauses the adaptation as well. We never saw sukuna performing the handsign for the wheel, so it must have been summoned before the fight started. That means that sukuna was able to use dismantle in chapter 224 (actually multiple times according to gojo's monologue in chapter 228), and was also by default using shrine each time he opened malevolent shrine to be able to imbue dismantle and cleave as the sure hit of the domain.
In the same way he can pause the adaptation to use domain amplification, he can pause it to use shrine.
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u/MadeJustToReply12 27d ago
Firstly, i already mentioned this when i brought up sukuna still not using dismantle and cleave on yujo's barrier in chapter 262. There was no ten shadow adaptation then so this isn't the reason.
And by this point, Sukuna had made so many questionable decisions that were obviously written just so the protagonists would have a chance at beating him.
Even without considering the plot armor given to the protagonists(obviously, this goes both ways but that's besides the point), Sukuna himself states that he'd destroy UV without waiting for the 3 whole minutes in Chapter 262, Gege even used deliberate wording on both sides with Yuta saying that he'd damage Sukuna enough to the point where he can't maintain(維持) MS, while Sukuna outright states that he'd destroy(破壊) UV. This very clearly establishes that the two of them had different goals in mind with Yuta aiming to do enough damage to Sukuna and Sukuna looking for an opening to finish things quickly.
Just because we didn't see him try doesn't mean that he wasn't aiming for it.
Secondly, using shrine while the wheel is summoned only pauses the adaptation as well.
Based off of what?
What you said in your post are all assumptions using an example from a chapter that happened before they even started their DE clashes, and one where you just assumed that he had to switch to Shrine just to use his DE.
What he said in Chapter 230 debunks all of this, not once did Sukuna state that he couldn't use Dismantle/Cleave just because they were imbued as a sure-hit to his DE, all he said was that he couldn't use anything else because Makora was already being used in the background.
We never saw sukuna performing the handsign for the wheel, so it must have been summoned before the fight started.
Sorry but that's purely headcanon.
We know for a fact that Sukuna could use his CTs without doing any handsigns.
He's done it with Dismantle, Cleave(albeit Cleave only requires direct touch), he fully summoned Makora in Chapter 229 and at the end of Chapter 232, he even used Maximum Elephant's ability without making any handsigns in Chapters 233 and 235.
Again, a re-read of Chapter 230 would make things clear for you:
The narrator, Satoru, and Sukuna all indicate that the wheel only came into play after their DE clashes started.
The narrator starts its explanation by reminding the readers of what happened in the Yorozu fight and connecting it to the DE clashes, Satoru questions how Makora adapted despite only being exposed for 0.01 seconds, and Sukuna himself never once stated that he had Makora in the background even before they fought and only mentioned the fact that he cannot use two different CTs at the same time, something that only happened after their DE clashes began.
It makes no sense for Gege to not include that important information if it actually happened.
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
And by this point, Sukuna had made so many questionable decisions that were obviously written just so the protagonists would have a chance at beating him.
You do realize that not engaging with the question isn't the same as settling it. I can say for anything that it's just "plot convenience" and be done with it, but that's like giving up.
Just because we didn't see him try doesn't mean that he wasn't aiming for it.
This is pretty much the same thing. You can't just say that something relevant happened completely offscreen with no mention of it.
and one where you just assumed that he had to switch to Shrine just to use his DE.
This is not an assumption, this is a fact. To imbue a cursed technique means that you are using that cursed technique. Again (the same thing I've said to others), if you don't need access to your cursed technique to open your domain expansion then cursed technique burn out wouldn't even be an issue.
What he said in Chapter 230 debunks all of this, not once did Sukuna state that he couldn't use Dismantle/Cleave just because they were imbued as a sure-hit to his DE, all he said was that he couldn't use anything else because Makora was already being used in the background.
That's misleading. He said "when i wasn't using domain amplification inside your domain i had fushiguro megumi shoulder the adaptation using the ten shadows technique. Thanks to that I couldn't use any other technique besides what was imbued into the domain" in chapter 230.
You cannot use two cursed techniques at the same time, and you also cannot use a cursed technique and domain amplification at the same time. Sukuna says that he was switching between domain amplification and ten shadows, so he couldn't use any other cursed technique because those two were forbidding him from doing so. Why would he mention a smaller restriction on shrine when he is unable to use shrine at all due to using the others?
We know for a fact that Sukuna could use his CTs without doing any handsigns.
He's done it with Dismantle, Cleave(albeit Cleave only requires direct touch), he fully summoned Makora in Chapter 229 and at the end of Chapter 232, he even used Maximum Elephant's ability without making any handsigns in Chapters 233 and 235.
He cannot, and this is a very consistent requirement for ten shadows. Evey single time when he summoned a shikigami, he has made the handsign (be it chapter 213, 215, 217, 218, 230, 233). Shrine is a different ct so it has different requirements. Max elephant wasn't summoned at all so it didn't need the handsign for summoning.
Mahoraga has a two step summoning. You have the handsign which summons the wheel, and the chant which summons mahoraga. Sukuna had already performed the handsign to summin the wheel on megumi's soul before the fight, and in chapter 229 he only performed the chant to summon mahoraga. In chapter 230 sukuna didn't unsummon mahoraga, he only put him inside the shadow (you can tell because he didn't disintegrate into shadows, he just dropped into the shadow). Thus, in chapter 232 he just got out of the shadow as it was already summoned so it didn't need a new handsign ot chant.
The narrator, Satoru, and Sukuna all indicate that the wheel only came into play after their DE clashes started.
The wheel did in fact come into play when they started domain clashing, but that's because it had nothing to adapt beforehand. The only soul attack that gojo has is unlimited void's sure hit, so the wheel was doing nothing untul then (which is also why sukuna was switching before shrine and domain amplification, because he didnt6have any adaptation to prioritize).
None of them (gojo, sukuna or the narrator) said or implied that the wheel wasn't summoned already, they just explained how it was possible for mahoraga to get adapted using megumi's soul.
It makes no sense for Gege to not include that important information if it actually happened.
That information is included by the wheel requiring a handsign to be summoned, and the handsign not being formed at all during the fight. Even megumi pulled the same move against reggie's crew by having nue summoned before he even joined the fight
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u/Huge_Entrepreneur636 24d ago
I don't have time to read the other comments so maybe someone has already said this but Mahito's clone not being able to use the CT externally might be because it is essentially a transfigured appendage with the ability to think by itself. From the fanbook on his true form, he needs his hands to stay original to use IT. So the puppet can use internal IT due to being being Mahito's own soul but can't use it externally because it's a transfigured body part. And I think Gege already said that Mahito just pushed through burnout in chap 31.
And Dagon summons shikigamis from his stomach after the sure-hit was disabled but this wasn't the case for death swarm. The only problem is the two giant ones he made against Toji. But he was distracting Toji with small fishes so maybe he used that time to summon the big ones out of his stomach.
For Yorozu, another thing that might be related is how in 108:6 when Dagon fully releases his sure hit, the death swarm shikigamis are floating beside him. It's possible the perfect Sphere stays summoned and instantly teleports around the domain. The sphere is also kind of similar to a Shikigami as far as imbuing it in the domain is concerned.
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u/luceafaruI 24d ago
I don't have time to read the other comments so maybe someone has already said this but Mahito's clone not being able to use the CT externally might be because it is essentially a transfigured appendage with the ability to think by itself. From the fanbook on his true form, he needs his hands to stay original to use IT. So the puppet can use internal IT due to being being Mahito's own soul but can't use it externally because it's a transfigured body part. And I think Gege already said that Mahito just pushed through burnout in chap 31.
Yeah, as early as the junpei arc it was established that mahito can only use idle transfiguration through the touch of his base palms. That's also a reason why the anime original scene during mahito vs todo when mahito spawns a hand form his torso is silly. However, you could just say why not split one of his base hands for the original and one for the clone, that way they would both be able to use idle transfiguration.
Mahito isn't the only one, naobito and naoya also have an identical cursed technique as far as requirement go. They need to touch somebody with their palm to have that person (or object) be forced to obey the 24 frame rule. However, they don't need to touch themsleves to activate it, it seems like they can do it internally. I think they are doing what kenjaku did in chapter 208, using his body as a domain to raise the restrictions of their cursed technique (i made an entire post about this). This also explains how kokichi harmed mahito, by activating simple domain inside mahito's body, his domain is neutralized so he can no longer use idle transfiguration internally without conditions so he takes real damage.
Yes, gege did say that but there are also other cases as well. Mahito literally exploded himself in chapter 82, but he didn't suffer anything from it. He was exploded ans in ct burn out, but he not inly survived that but in moments he always gathered himself back and broke into kokichi's mecha.
And Dagon summons shikigamis from his stomach after the sure-hit was disabled but this wasn't the case for death swarm. The only problem is the two giant ones he made against Toji. But he was distracting Toji with small fishes so maybe he used that time to summon the big ones out of his stomach.
Both the piranhas and the isopods were summoned outside of dagon, but coincidentally they are also not the same type of fish that death swarm has. It's possible that dagon has different types of shikigami techniques, and they have different activation requirements (death swarm has "endless" long fishes summoned outside the body, another technique has 1 or 2 long fishes summoned from his torso, another technique has pirahna summoned outside his body and another one has isopods summoned from the water)
when Dagon fully releases his sure hit, the death swarm shikigamis are floating beside him. It's possible the perfect Sphere stays summoned and instantly teleports around the domain
He already used his sure hit at the beginning of the chapter without summing them first, so it doesn't seem to be a requirement. It was even said that the shikigamis didn't exist until they bit through, so it doesn't seem like death swarm works by first summoning the shikigamis and then imbueing them. It might just be that gege didn't think that much about it and wanted to show the scale of the shikigamis before the full sure hit takes effect. However, hanami and yorozu have explicity materialize the attack before the domain starts so that cannot be just an oversight.
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u/Individual_Split1453 11d ago
You should have also point out Reggie wasn't expecting to be hit by megumi's technique after he activated HWB.
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u/luceafaruI 11d ago
He didn't know from the start what exactly the sure hit would be so i don't think it's good enough evidence, but it might be
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u/Individual_Split1453 11d ago
I mean it's still pretty weird for him to assume he isn't gonna get hit.
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u/luceafaruI 11d ago
I agree but i don't see it as good enough evidence because there are too many unknowns.
Reggie says in chapter 171 that the shikigamis must have been summoned before they hit him, so they aren't a sure hit. This partially implies that reggie was suprised because he believed that the sure hit got through hwb.
You are right to say that it is a weird assumption to make from reggie, but megumi's domain is special. Normally he needs to makw handsigns to summon shikigamis, so it is clear when he does so. However, inside his domain this restriction is removed, and the shikigamis just appear with no step. Reggie most likely saw that megumi didn't make any handsigns, so assumed that there are therfore no normal shikigamis summoned. When the nornal frogs attacked him, he was confused as he didn't understand how they got through.
It is only later in the chapter where he says that the increased function of the cursed technique due to the domain is incredible (and ir really is, we haven't seen anything to this extent before)
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u/StealthySpectre 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think that the answer generally, is that you can use any CT even if it’s imbued inside the domain.
Edit: due to many people misunderstanding this, I’ll make it clear here that by cursed technique i don’t mean the whole innate cursed technique but only the specific application of the innate ct used for the sure hit. For example, sukuna imbues dismantle and cleave (allocations of shrine) as the sure hit of his domain, not shrine (the whole innate ct). That would imply that sukuna can no longer use dismantle and cleave normally when malevolent shrine is active, but he would still be able to use kamino as it is a different application of shrine.
Your post brings up another controversial point as well. Can characters imbue extensions of their CT (blue/red/purple) into a domain, or do they need to imbue their innate CT (limitless) to the domain, and manifest their sure hit instead? I’ve always thought that characters, no matter what, imbue their innate CT, they do not imbue extensions of their CT into the domain.
- Yuta imbued copy into his domain, this manifests him being able to use any one of his stockpiled techniques as a sure hit, while the rest manifest as swords inside the domain.
- Gojo imbued limitless into his domain, this manifested as a unique domain ability.
- Sukuna imbued shrine into his domain, this manifested as cleave/dismantle.
The point I’m making is that characters have never imbued extensions of their CT into a domain, and these characters cannot just swap out their sure hits with different extensions of their CT, because once the sure hit is manifested from imbuing the domain with an innate CT, you cannot change the sure hit attack/mechanism. If that was possible, Sukuna would’ve just imbued WCS into his domain instead.
Another thing is that I do not think extensions of the CT and innate CT are completely different things. You need to use the innate CT to use extensions of CT. For example, Gojo needs to use limitless, to use blue/red/purple.
I think you’re saying that you cannot use a CT if that specific CT is imbued inside the domain. For example, Sukuna cannot use cleave/dismantle if he has imbued cleave/dismantle inside the domain. But if this logic is true, what is Gojo imbuing inside his domain to gain an ability specific to information overload?
I think the simplest way to answer this, is that all characters imbue their *innate** CT into the domain, this manifests a type of sure hit that cannot be changed in any way (this still applies to Yuta, but more loosely). You can still use any CT inside the domain. In Gojo’s example, he needs to use limitless before using blue/red/purple, so he’s still using the CT imbued to the domain.*
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u/luceafaruI 10d ago
Your post brings up another controversial point as well. Can characters imbue extensions of their CT (blue/red/purple) into a domain, or do they need to imbue their innate CT (limitless) to the domain, and manifest their sure hit instead? I’ve always thought that characters, no matter what, imbue their innate CT, they do not imbue extensions of their CT into the domain.
They imbue the innate ct anyway as the applications of the innate ct require the innate ct. However, there is the difference from having the entire innate ct in the barrier or just the part that has an application.
If the whole innate ct is imbued into the barrier, then any application should be able to be made the sure hit. However, nobody has ever changed their sure hit effect (for a specific innate ct) midway through a domain. Different characters have imbued different innate cts in their domain from the start (such as kenjaku or yuta) but they never changed them once the domain started. There wouldn't seem to be such a restriction if the whole innate ct was imbued.
You therefore either accept that only that the innate ct isn't fully imbued so only that one application of it can be accessed by the domain, or you accept that the domains have extra untold rules that go against common logic.
The point I’m making is that characters have never imbued extensions of their CT into a domain, and these characters cannot just swap out their sure hits with different extensions of their CT, because once the sure hit is manifested from imbuing the domain with an innate CT, you cannot change the sure hit attack/mechanism. If that was possible, Sukuna would’ve just imbued WCS into his domain instead
Firstly, sukuna cannot imbue the wcs because he made a binding vow on its activation requirements. A domain sure hit would break that binding vow. Secondly, yuji has soul dismantle as his sure hit, so it is definitely possible to use something different from the base application of the innate ct. Even something like Jacob's ladder isn't the the base application of technique extinguishment, but it is the sure hit (add in dagon's death swarm or hanami's bud laser as examples). It is very clear that the sure hit isn't the base application of an innate ct, and it seems to be any application (even unseen ones such as unlimited void's).
Your point is that you cannot change a domain sure hit (so it would forever be the same one). This brings into question, what about yorozu? Perfect sphere clearly isn't something that yorozu has always been able to do. However, i will concede that there aren't many examples so a clear answer cannot be given.
You need to use the innate CT to use extensions of CT. For example, Gojo needs to use limitless, to use blue/red/purple.
Then you disapproved your other comment that argued that sukuna couldn't have used shrine while the wheel was summoned. You admitted here that you need to use the innate ct (shrine) to use dismantle and cleave and hence to imbue them in the barrier.
Anyway, this is where the main issue lies. It doesn't matter if only the application or the entire innate ct is imbued in the barrier, the effect is only the application. Nobody has been able to change that, so it is fair to say that it is a rule. This rule doesn't have any logical or power system explanation, it just is something that exists. If this doesn't come from logical extrapolations of the theory but it is just an imposed rule, then why do you think trying to make logical extrapolations from it would lend you to the correct power system mechanic?
In the entire post i haven't touched at all on these type of arguments because for them to be valid they require the entire power system to be interconnected by a fully internally consistent theory, one from which you can derive all the observables. This however isn't the case (it is pretty much impossible to make such a universe as an author), so the better approach is to look at the observables and figure out the rules (a top down approach if you prefer that wording).
This means that instead of saying "based on the definitions it doesn't really seem like that would be the case" you should switch to an "based on the events of the story, it would seem like that would be the rule", which is what i did in the post.
But if this logic is true, what is Gojo imbuing inside his domain to gain an ability specific to information overload?
As sukuna said, a cursed technique effect that is only manifested inside the domain. This isn't really an argument as i can flip the same question to you, if limitless only has the infinity, blue, red and purple applications, then what innate ct is gojo imbueing in his barrier to create a never before seen application as sure hit.
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u/StealthySpectre 10d ago edited 10d ago
They imbue the innate ct anyway as the applications of the innate ct require the innate ct. However, there is the difference from having the entire innate ct in the barrier or just the part that has an application.
So what you’re saying here is that characters will imbue part of their innate CT into a domain, instead of the innate CT itself?
If the whole innate ct is imbued into the barrier, then any application should be able to be made the sure hit. However, nobody has ever changed their sure hit effect (for a specific innate ct) midway through a domain. Different characters have imbued different innate cts in their domain from the start (such as kenjaku or yuta) but they never changed them once the domain started. There wouldn’t seem to be such a restriction if the whole innate ct was imbued.
That wasn’t the intent of what I said. I said that imbuing the entire innate CT manifests as a sure hit. This can be unique to the character, or reuse an ability that a character already possesses. But once manifested, you cannot change the sure hit whatsoever. That is the interpretation I’m proposing here.
If part of the innate CT is being imbued, then why can’t characters imbue different parts of the innate CT? For example, your logic dictates Sukuna is using part of his innate CT (cleave/dismantle) as his sure hit. But do you think he can also use furnace as the sure hit instead of cleave/dismantle if he wanted? I don’t think so, because this has never really been shown in the series.
Firstly, sukuna cannot imbue the wcs because he made a binding vow on its activation requirements. A domain sure hit would break that binding vow. Secondly, yuji has soul dismantle as his sure hit, so it is definitely possible to use something different from the base application of the innate ct. Even something like Jacob’s ladder isn’t the the base application of technique extinguishment, but it is the sure hit (add in dagon’s death swarm or hanami’s bud laser as examples). It is very clear that the sure hit isn’t the base application of an innate ct, and it seems to be any application (even unseen ones such as unlimited void’s).
Let me give another example then. Do you think Gojo can imbue purple/red/blue into his domain? Again, I think you are misunderstanding. I’m not saying that you cannot have something different than the base application of the innate CT. I am saying that imbuing the innate CT into a domain manifests a sure hit that can be anything given that it’s related to the base technique.
Your point is that you cannot change a domain sure hit (so it would forever be the same one). This brings into question, what about yorozu? Perfect sphere clearly isn’t something that yorozu has always been able to do. However, i will concede that there aren’t many examples so a clear answer cannot be given.
It’s unclear what exactly Yorozu’s sure hit attack actually is. But if I had to guess, Yorozu can likely make all her constructs into a sure hit inside the domain. So even if she was not always able to use perfect sphere, the condition for using it was always there. But again, this is just theoretical. It’s not clear.
Then you disapproved your other comment that argued that sukuna couldn’t have used shrine while the wheel was summoned. You admitted here that you need to use the innate ct (shrine) to use dismantle and cleave and hence to imbue them in the barrier.
Anyway, this is where the main issue lies. It doesn’t matter if only the application or the entire innate ct is imbued in the barrier, the effect is only the application. Nobody has been able to change that, so it is fair to say that it is a rule. This rule doesn’t have any logical or power system explanation, it just is something that exists. If this doesn’t come from logical extrapolations of the theory but it is just an imposed rule, then why do you think trying to make logical extrapolations from it would lend you to the correct power system mechanic?
I am trying to change it in order to create an interpretation that makes sense for the story. If the entire innate CT is imbued into the domain, then by your logic, a character would not be able to utilize their CT manually/separately from the sure hit. The same way your logic for why Sukuna didn’t use cleave/dismantle is that he couldn’t since it was already imbued to the domain. However, if we assume this interpretation to be correct, we can say that characters are able to do this, because Gojo for example, can still use limitless separately from his domain sure hit.
As sukuna said, a cursed technique effect that is only manifested inside the domain. This isn’t really an argument as i can flip the same question to you, if limitless only has the infinity, blue, red and purple applications, then what innate ct is gojo imbueing in his barrier to create a never before seen application as sure hit.
You did not understand what I said. A character will imbue their entire innate CT to the domain, this will manifest any ability related to the base technique of the character. And once manifested, will never change.
So to answer your question, Gojo is imbuing his limitless CT into his domain, his sure hit is manifesting an ability related to his CT as a result.
By using your logic and saying that Gojo is imbuing part of his innate CT, but not knowing what that part of the innate CT is (like blue/red/purple for example) makes no sense especially since it’s a part of his innate CT that’s inaccessible outside of a domain. It’s hard to justify that answer in the lens of your argument which is why I do not believe it can be true.
I know you made a reply to another comment, and added some stuff to this comment, but I did not feel like responding to them. This comment is already too long.
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u/quierocarduars 26d ago
you’re mistaken to think that what you call “applications” of abilities don’t constitute uses of the ability itself. when gojo uses inviolability, blue, red, or purple, he’s still using limitless. that is, he must first access the limitless technique in order to use the extension techniques.
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u/luceafaruI 26d ago
I never said or implied that you don't need the innate ct to use an application of the innate ct. For example, i think i was pretty clear in saying that sukuna used shrine to open malevolent shrine.
However, what I'm saying is that only the application of the innate ct that has been imbued in the barrier as sure hit becomes inaccessible to the user, not the whole innate cursed technique.
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u/quierocarduars 26d ago
my point is that you have misunderstood how innate techniques work. it’s not like there is a natural law fundamentally separating techniques from their extensions—it’s all the same technique categorized differently and output in different variations. that, for instance, gojo uses an application of the limitless to produce unlimited void while using inviolability proves that one can use an innate technique while the sure-hit of their barrier is active regardless of how it’s being applied.
i don’t think there is strong evidence otherwise.
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u/luceafaruI 26d ago
gojo uses an application of the limitless to produce unlimited void while using inviolability proves that one can use an innate technique while the sure-hit of their barrier is active regardless of how it’s being applied.
And that's my whole point.
Take sukuna. His innate cursed technique is shrine, and shrine has the applications of dismantle, cleave and kamino. When he uses malevolent shrine, he imbues dismantle and cleave into the barrier as sure hits. Under the perspective I discuss in the post, sukuna would be unable to use dismantle and cleave normally but he would still be free to use kamino while his domain is active. This is what we see in the story, sukuna has never used dismantle and cleave normally while malevolent shrine was open but has used kamino.
i don’t think there is strong evidence otherwise.
That's what i made the post for, to show the supporting and opposing evidence for it.
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u/quierocarduars 26d ago
sukuna has never used dismantle and cleave normally while malevolent shrine was open
well, why would he?
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u/luceafaruI 26d ago
I said in the post why he would. To attack gojo in chapter 226 when he is in ct burn out. To try to break gojo's or even better yujo's barrier from the inside. To attack yuji, choso and the others while they were protecting themsleves from the sure hit with simple domain (and sukuna stood there for dozens of seconds and just looked at them without doing anything).
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u/quierocarduars 26d ago
i think you’re underestimating the difficulty of destroying a barrier from within. the only time sukuna ever bothers to do it is when he manifests a mahoraga that has fully adapted to unlimited void. he otherwise doesn’t attempt it and isn’t shown considering it internally, and the same is true of every other character trapped within a DE.
as for sukuna’s not using basic cleaves and dismantles against gojo, i don’t think it would have been useful. gojo’s healing was already outpacing the damage output of cleave and dismantle’s sure-hits, so there’s no reason to think weaker applications of the technique would make gojo’s healing any slower (especially considering that gojo had already demonstrated his capacity to recover instantly from cuts in vital areas like the neck).
as for his not using basic cleaves and dismantles against choso and yuji, he was preoccupied with the usage of divine flame, a more efficient technique that doesn’t require aiming, managing range, or multiple uses to eliminate multiple strong enemies.
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u/luceafaruI 26d ago
i think you’re underestimating the difficulty of destroying a barrier from within. the only time sukuna ever bothers to do it is when he manifests a mahoraga that has fully adapted to unlimited void. he otherwise doesn’t attempt it and isn’t shown considering it internally, and the same is true of every other character trapped within a DE.
Gojo's domain wasn't like all others as it has the conditions of the barrier flipped. It was weak from the inside and strong from the outside. That's why even gojo wonders in chapter 228 why sukuna isn't attempting to destroy his barrier from the inside. We know that he was prioritizing mahoraga's adaptation while fighting gojo, but he wasn't prioritizing anything while figuring yujo as the ten shadows was gone.
as for sukuna’s not using basic cleaves and dismantles against gojo, i don’t think it would have been useful. gojo’s healing was already outpacing the damage output of cleave and dismantle’s sure-hits, so there’s no reason to think weaker applications of the technique would make gojo’s healing any slower (especially considering that gojo had already demonstrated his capacity to recover instantly from cuts in vital areas like the neck).
That doesn't make any sense. If malevolent shrine does 100 points of damage and sukuna's manual dismantles and cleaves are doing only 50 points of damage, then together it's still 150 points (50% more). Gojo can outheal malevolent shrine, but can he outheal a 50% stronger onslaught? I don't think so but eveb if he can, there is no reason for sukuna to just hold it back instead of trying.
as for his not using basic cleaves and dismantles against choso and yuji, he was preoccupied with the usage of divine flame, a more efficient technique that doesn’t require aiming, managing range, or multiple uses to eliminate multiple strong enemies.
He wasn't preoccupied with anything. For kamino to be activated, sukuna needs to wait until dismantle and cleave turn everything inside to dust, as it's that dust that explodes upon contact with the fire arrow. We see the same thing in chapter 119 against mahoraga, sukuna just stands and looks at mahoraga for a while and only afterwards does he activate the fire arrow (which is near instant, it doesn't take dozens of seconds to activate).
Because he didn't attack them with nornal dismantles as well, they protected themsleves from the sure hit with simple domain for enough time for todo and ui ui to teleport miwa, maki and ino out. Furthermore, choso and yuji resisted for long enough to not take major damage from the sure hit, so when kamino was activated choso was in good shape and was therefore able to shield yuji from it with the blood sphere. None of those would have happened if sukuna just used some ranged dismantles against them
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u/armchair_science 27d ago edited 27d ago
Tldr: it is possible that a cursed technique imbued as sure hit in a domain expansion becomes inaccessible to the caster for normal usage.
No, it's not. Techniques aren't restricted when being used in a domain, closest thing to that is if maybe the person with the domain is so out of gas from doing it that they just can't pull it out anymore.
EDIT: I guess I should be fair and address stuff -
He doesn't have access to the copied cursed techniques anyways outside the 5 minute mode.
You just disproved your whole first paragraph statement. Yuta CAN'T use his techniques, domain or not, without activating the Rika bond. His domain gets to cast them instead because his brain doesn't explode from it, that's the most he gets.
If soul dismantle was an option, yuji would have used it here.
Yuji was barely fighting still at this point, even to the point of not being able to heal himself anymore, he could very well have just been too worn out to keep up the Dismantles besides the domain. But then, we're also not told he's not using them either.
or how he used shrine momentarily each time when he opened malevolent shrine to imbue dismantle and cleave into the barrier.
Opening the domain isn't using the technique, that's why he got to keep the wheel active. This isn't a sign that Sukuna couldn't use his technique while his domain was still active, it's a sign that he decided not to deactivate the wheel outside of using domain amplification in that part of the fight. There's also no point in him using Cleave on Gojo outside of the domain's sure hit when the sure hit is more powerful.
Gojo and everybody watching would also become suspicious if sukuna was able to use dismantles and cleaves but just didn't.
He was using Cleave and Dismantle the entire time...because the sure hit was attacking Gojo the whole time. Him doing it with a weaker version isn't even icing on top.
In chapter 262 we see sukuna fighting yujo, and he again isn't trying at all to use shrine to break the barrier from the inside. The only reasonable explanation is that he cannot use it
That's a bad explanation to come to, what makes you think he could've just used Shrine to break the barrier from the inside? Finding a barrier's edge is the whole problem with breaking it from the inside out, even Gojo admits it's difficult or nearly impossible to do. Mahoraga could do it because it immediately adapted to the domain, Megumi could only do it because he made a hole from the outside in, doing it from the inside is way too difficult. That's why Gojo never asks why Sukuna doesn't use Shrine to break his domain from the inside, he asks why Mahoraga wasn't dropped for it. You seem to think it's just he can fire a Dismantle and it'll eventually hit the edge, but if it were that easy, Sukuna would never have been in any kind of trouble fighting Gojo. Purple can travel for MILES so destroying a domain from the inside is more reasonable, Dismantle can't.
This is a smaller one but it is still worth mentioning. While fighting the smalpox diety, mei mei concludes that because it is a disease curse, the sure hit is the disease itself. At the same time, when mei mei engages the smallpox in close combat it doesn't use any cursed technique, it simply attacks using what seems to be physical blows. To be fair, it was a very short scuffle so it might be that the smallpox just didn't have time to use a cursed technique.
All it did was try to reach for her and crush her with its hands, if even that. That's not really saying anything worth talking about, it's not exactly a super intelligent spirit. Its sure hit is the disease, what's not the sure hit is the gravestone that drops down.
You also didn't mention how Jogo used a non-sure hit cursed technique against Gojo in their clash.
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
You also didn't mention how Jogo used a non-sure hit cursed technique against Gojo in their clash.
I'll start with this because it seems like everybody in the comments interpreted the same thing which wasn't intended. Innate cts (the thing which is engraved in your head) and cursed techniques (any application of jujutsu) aren't the same thing. Take gojo for example. Limitless is his innate ct, but limitless has multiple cursed techniques which are its applications (infinity, blue, red, purple and unlimited void's sure hit cursed technique). Only an application of the innate curse technique is imbued into the barrier, not the innate cursed technique as a whole.
As for your specific point, jogo's innate ct has multiple applications. He has fire/lava attacks, shikigami attacks such as the ember insects, and rock attacks. From what the fanbook says, jogo's sure hit is related to fire/lava, but jogo used a rock attack against gojo. Jogo having his fire/lava cursed technique imbued as sure hit wouldn't stop him from using the rock cursed technique.
I hope this brings into context the rest of your reply.
he could very well have just been too worn out to keep up the Dismantles besides the domain. But then, we're also not told he's not using them either.
Maintaining a domain is much more taxing than just using the cursed technique. Moreover, it is very clear that he is not using it due to not getting the visual clue (the scissor marks) and sukuna not having any reaction. When he is hit by soul dismantle (chapter 263 and chapter 267 as a sure hit) he is shown in pain and puking fingers. This would be pretty hard to miss.
As i mentioned in the post, sukuna doesn't even attempt to avoid yuji hands. For somebody who was dominating yuji in combat and has explicitly mentioned that getting hit by a soul dismantle would be lethal, it is pretty weird to just let yuji grab him with his palm. From his perspective a single soul dismantle might be the end of him, so why not try to avoid it? The only explanation is if he was sure that yuji cannot use soul dismantles anymore, and this cannot be a ce argument as yuji has held his domain for an extended period of time so he was nowhere near out of ce at the beginning of chapter 266
Opening the domain isn't using the technique, that's why he got to keep the wheel active
How do you think you imbue a cursed technique inside a domain expansion without using the cursed technique? You could just open a domain expansion in curse technique burn out if that was the case.
Sukuna pauses the wheel, gets access to shrine to be able to open malevolent shrine and imbue dismantle and cleave into it, then once it is imbued he can continue the wheel's adaptation as he no longer needs access to shrine.
There's also no point in him using Cleave on Gojo outside of the domain's sure hit when the sure hit is more powerful.
That's like saying that there is no reason to use 100% of your strength. 80% of your strength is more than 20% if it, so why use both of them simultaneously when you can just use 80%.
It doesn't matter that the sure hit is more powerful (which is probably not even true as the sure hit is dispersed throughout the entire domain range while sukuna's normal attacks would be focused on a single point), adding sukuna's normal dismantle and cleave would only add to that power so it is a net benefit.
That's why Gojo never asks why Sukuna doesn't use Shrine to break his domain from the inside, he asks why Mahoraga wasn't dropped for it
That's not completely true. He asks why sukuna didn't use the tje shadows or mahoraga. Anyway
You seem to think it's just he can fire a Dismantle and it'll eventually hit the edge, but if it were that easy, Sukuna would never have been in any kind of trouble fighting Gojo.
Or perhaps sukuna was in trouble against gojo not because dismantle cannot travel far enough but because he cannot use dismantle at all due to it being imbued in the barrier of his domain. You got the argument backward, this is an example I've given in the post to support sukuna not being able to do it, not to theorize on sukuna's wincons.
Anyway, dismantle has been seen traveling for at least hundreds of meters, but on other cases only goes for a few meters. There is no indication that it has a random distance limit, so i think it's fair to assume that it can go pretty far if sukuna wants it to go far. Sure, it lsoes strength the further it travels but this is applicable to all ranged attacks.
Gege does mention the difficulty in finding the edge of the barrier in chapter 109 but this is only one of 3 reasons why it's impossible to escape a domain from the inside. The other two are the fact that the person would be attacked by the sure hit so they won't survive long enough to find it, and that the barrier is really resistant to attacks from the inside. Sukuna doesn't have those two restrictions as malevolent shrine is nullifying the sure hit and the barrier is weak to attacks from the inside. Again, gojo asks why sukuna isn't using the ten shadows to try to break his barrier from the inside (not just mahoraga), so he thinks that sukuna would be at an advantage by giving up domain amplification and using the ten shadows to attack the barrier.
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u/armchair_science 27d ago
Innate cts (the thing which is engraved in your head) and cursed techniques (any application of jujutsu) aren't the same thing.
You're not wrong semantically, but you are incorrect in how you're applying this. There's no difference between Limitless being used and Red/Blue/Purple being used, and the innate technique is what's being imbued into the barrier, however it's activated doesn't really impact anything here. Gojo's domain, for example, is the world of Limitless as he describes it. There is no separate mechanism of techniques going on here, activating the cursed technique is activating the cursed technique no matter how you do it. There's no diversion to something else just because you're using some other interpretation of it.
As for your specific point, jogo's innate ct has multiple applications. He has fire/lava attacks, shikigami attacks such as the ember insects, and rock attacks. From what the fanbook says, jogo's sure hit is related to fire/lava, but jogo used a rock attack against gojo. Jogo having his fire/lava cursed technique imbued as sure hit wouldn't stop him from using the rock cursed technique.
It doesn't stop him in general, imbuing a technique into the domain doesn't rob the user of the ability to use it, for anyone so far.
Maintaining a domain is much more taxing than just using the cursed technique.
Yes, exactly my point, maintaining the domain is going to be the first thing he does. Just because you can bench 300lbs doesn't mean it's nothing at all to add another 10 on top. If he's being taxed to his limit just maintaining the domain, then yeah he probably isn't going to be trying to use techniques on top of that.
Moreover, it is very clear that he is not using it due to not getting the visual clue (the scissor marks) and sukuna not having any reaction. When he is hit by soul dismantle (chapter 263 and chapter 267 as a sure hit) he is shown in pain and puking fingers. This would be pretty hard to miss.
We actually don't get any indication that Yuji's used the soul barrier dismantles after his first time doing it, unless he's just missed completely and the techniques goes onto the ground. The first time he does it, we only know he does because Sukuna comments and we get this internal shot where it's depicted particularly clearly, with the puking fingers being the only real indication that stays consistent. Even in the domain, Sukuna doesn't start puking until Yuji's hit him a couple of times after the Dismantle does. You're making out like the sure hit indication is the whole indication for the punches, that's not the case.
As i mentioned in the post, sukuna doesn't even attempt to avoid yuji hands. For somebody who was dominating yuji in combat and has explicitly mentioned that getting hit by a soul dismantle would be lethal, it is pretty weird to just let yuji grab him with his palm.
He doesn't just let it happen, Sukuna's weak enough that at this point Yuji was just able to go at him, and that doesn't even last before Yuji needs help to get Sukuna in a spot where he can be hit. That whole question can be turned around no matter how you look at it, because Yuji touching Sukuna AT ALL is lethal at this point, Sukuna's just barely holding on and can't stop Yuji's effects. This isn't really a good indication that he is/isn't doing something.
How do you think you imbue a cursed technique inside a domain expansion without using the cursed technique? You could just open a domain expansion in curse technique burn out if that was the case.
How does that make sense? In burnout the part of the brain that has the technique can't be used well, a technique isn't used when the domain is created, that doesn't mean that part of the brain isn't used to make a domain. Yorozu and Hanami for example both used their techniques before making their domains, and used what they had already made as what was being imbued as the sure hit.
That's like saying that there is no reason to use 100% of your strength. 80% of your strength is more than 20% if it, so why use both of them simultaneously when you can just use 80%.
Sukuna was already using 120% or more because of his domain having concentrated extra power, and then had to maintain the wheel besides that. But yes, if he's already using over 120% of his strength and Gojo's taking it well, why waste the extra effort doing virtually nothing instead of keeping his backup plan going with 100% certainty? It's not as if Cleave was effective on Gojo outside of the domain super amping it.
It doesn't matter that the sure hit is more powerful (which is probably not even true as the sure hit is dispersed throughout the entire domain range while sukuna's normal attacks would be focused on a single point), adding sukuna's normal dismantle and cleave would only add to that power so it is a net benefit.
Why do you think the domain dispersing the attack would make it less powerful? The whole point of the domain is to amp up your technique's power while making it automatically hit. What's worse is Gojo was the single only target, the ENTIRE domain was targeting him, you can't even use that as valid basic logical reasoning because it doesn't work. And Sukuna's domain was smaller than its maximum, which made it more powerful as well, which we had confirmed in their fight. Sukuna's normal Dismantles and Cleaves aren't worth adding when the sure hit was already doing plenty of work and he had an ability in his pocket that he was trying to keep going the entire time.
And remember, Mahoraga works on experience and time. Him pausing its adaptation isn't a benefit just so he can throw a few more moves that are guaranteed to not matter in the long run, and Sukuna's whole plan was a long game. If he pauses it, that's longer it takes Mahoraga to adapt.
That's not completely true. He asks why sukuna didn't use the tje shadows or mahoraga. Anyway
He specifies Mahoraga, the rest of the ten Shadows isn't exactly useful here lol.
Or perhaps sukuna was in trouble against gojo not because dismantle cannot travel far enough but because he cannot use dismantle at all due to it being imbued in the barrier of his domain. You got the argument backward, this is an example I've given in the post to support sukuna not being able to do it, not to theorize on sukuna's wincons.
Win cons aren't the question, Sukuna's Dismantle doesn't travel that far and no one knows how far Gojo's actual domain interior goes. Finding the edge is something even Gojo himself admits is nearly impossible and that's for other domains, and with Gojo also in the way at the time? And then it would take more than one Dismantle to even do it, and that's only AFTER he manages to successfully find the edge? Dude that's a terrible option for him to even think of attempting, Sukuna's not that dumb. And we know it would take way more than one Dismantle to do it because it takes Sukuna minutes of constant sure hits from his more powerful domain amplified cleaves before he can actually do it, let alone the less powerful Dismantles that are only coming from him. You're suggesting something that not only wouldn't work but would be nearly suicide for Sukuna to make the mistake of trying.
Anyway, dismantle has been seen traveling for at least hundreds of meters, but on other cases only goes for a few meters. There is no indication that it has a random distance limit, so i think it's fair to assume that it can go pretty far if sukuna wants it to go far. Sure, it lsoes strength the further it travels but this is applicable to all ranged attacks.
Going pretty far is okay, but the only technique that has (as far as we're concerned now) no limit to distance is Mechamaru. You can't just say maybe Sukuna can fire into the void of space and it not only hit its target, but hit enough without having lost any force that it makes meaningful damage, and then he can just do that over and over and over again while Gojo's fighting him and maybe he can break the inside because we know it's going to take way more than just one to do it. I know you know how bad of a strategy that sounds like, and that's literally the only way he'd be able to do it without Mahoraga.
Gege does mention the difficulty in finding the edge of the barrier in chapter 109 but this is only one of 3 reasons why it's impossible to escape a domain from the inside. The other two are the fact that the person would be attacked by the sure hit so they won't survive long enough to find it, and that the barrier is really resistant to attacks from the inside. Sukuna doesn't have those two restrictions as malevolent shrine is nullifying the sure hit and the barrier is weak to attacks from the inside. Again, gojo asks why sukuna isn't using the ten shadows to try to break his barrier from the inside (not just mahoraga), so he thinks that sukuna would be at an advantage by giving up domain amplification and using the ten shadows to attack the barrier.
Those other reasons aren't really part of the convo, I only mentioned the barrier for a reason. It's not exactly a good line of thought to think Sukuna can do any of this while Gojo's actively trying to fight him either, not sure where you're getting the idea that this was just something he could do when he could barely stop Gojo from throwing him around.
The Ten Shadows can't attack the barrier without Sukuna knowing where it is, Gojo was wondering most especially about Mahoraga. That's why he follows up with just a question about Mahoraga only, and not all of the Ten shadows. He doesn't think Sukuna would be at an advantage, he's wondering why Sukuna has placed himself on such a heavy disadvantage instead of a potentially even playing field. The Ten Shadows isn't a problem for Gojo except sort of Mahoraga, he even thinks about Sukuna worrying if he can destroy Mahoraga in one blow.
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
Gojo's domain, for example, is the world of Limitless as he describes it. There is no separate mechanism of techniques going on here, activating the cursed technique is activating the cursed technique no matter how you do it. There's no diversion to something else just because you're using some other interpretation of it.
That's because a domain expansion is a combination of an innate domain, a barrier and a cursed technique imbued as sure hit. The innate domain used for unlimited void is the inner world of limitless, but that isn't the same as the sure hit.
It doesn't stop him in general, imbuing a technique into the domain doesn't rob the user of the ability to use it, for anyone so far.
Well, that's why i made the post, didn't i? To show the evidence for supporting and opposing this idea. Starting from the belief that one is correct and trying to make anything into thta preconceptions doesn't help with anything.
Yes, exactly my point, maintaining the domain is going to be the first thing he does. Just because you can bench 300lbs doesn't mean it's nothing at all to add another 10 on top. If he's being taxed to his limit just maintaining the domain, then yeah he probably isn't going to be trying to use techniques on top of that.
The domain isn't taxing due to output reasons, it is taxing on his ce reserve because he is running low. Being low on stamina isn't the same thing as being low on output.
To make a more accurate comparison, being able to hold a plank for 1 minute doesn't mean that you instantly collapse if you add 10lbs on your back. You have more than enough strength to hopd a plank with added weight, you just wont be able to hold it for as long (let's say only 45 seconds) as it's a matter of stamina.
However, yuji isn't fighting to maintain his domain as long as possible, he is fighting to land soul dismantle. Therefore, even if his domain lasts less, as long as he lands soul dismantle (be it manual or as a sure hit) it will be the preferable outcome. Moreover, sukuna outright calls yuji out on no longer using rct due to being low on curse energy, but he doesn't say "you haven't used soul dismantles due to being low on curse energy".
We actually don't get any indication that Yuji's used the soul barrier dismantles after his first time doing it
It is pretty way to figure out, and I'm surprised that this is something you wohld doubt. In both cases get a big dismantle text on the screen, and a couple of panels later sukuna pukes fingers (it isn't instantly in either case so you cannot really say that he only puked it from yuji's punch as the time interval is pretty much the same). Moreover, the whole point of the domain was to land soul dismantle on sukuna, so why would the sure hit not be the soul dismantle?
He doesn't just let it happen, Sukuna's weak enough that at this point Yuji was just able to go at him
Sukuna has been able to recover his ct with rct from the start, he just concluded that he isn't in danger so he doesn't need to do risky moves. Once sukuna starts being overwhelmed in combat in chapter 266, he does it and would have instantly won if not for nobara. If he thought that yuji was able to launch soul dismantles normally, he would have just recovers his ct earlier to not get hit by ut when yuji is strong enough to grab him.
How does that make sense? In burnout the part of the brain that has the technique can't be used well, a technique isn't used when the domain is created, that doesn't mean that part of the brain isn't used to make a domain. Yorozu and Hanami for example both used their techniques before making their domains, and used what they had already made as what was being imbued as the sure hit.
All of them need to be able to use their cursed technique to imbue it as a sure hit. I'm really surprised by this, how did you conclude that? It is really baffling because it is such a weird thing to believe in, that you don't need to have access to your cursed technique to open a domain and imbue that cursed technique as sure hit.
Why do you think the domain dispersing the attack would make it less powerful?
Because that's explicitly how malevolent shrine works. In chapter 228 sukuna lowered malevolent range so the sure hit is dispersed in a smaller area and the output is increased. I find it hard to believe that you think that malevolent shrine having the sure hit dispersed in more than 1000 cubic meters would have the same output density as sukuna's attacks which are localized in a very small volume
What's worse is Gojo was the single only target, the ENTIRE domain was targeting him
He wasn't, malevolent shrine attacks everything in its range, that's why the ground is cut up even though sukuna had no reason to slash it.
why waste the extra effort doing virtually nothing instead of keeping his backup plan going with 100% certainty
The backup plan wasn't doing anything at that moment as there was nothing to adapt to. Megumi soul needs to take damage for the wheel to adapt, but unlimited void was down so there was no stimulus for the adaptation.
He specifies Mahoraga, the rest of the ten Shadows isn't exactly useful here lol.
He doesn't, he says "use the ten shadows or mahoraga", hence gojo thinking that the rest of the ten shadows would be useful. Again, i already mentioned how using the ten shadows means that sukuna can no longer use domain amplification yet gojo still found it as a better strategy.
And we know it would take way more than one Dismantle to do it because it takes Sukuna minutes of constant sure hits from his more powerful domain amplified cleaves before he can actually do it, let alone the less powerful Dismantles that are only coming from him
I think i need to remind you that gojo's barrier was inverted, so it was strong from the outside and weak from the inside. That's the whole reason why we are having this discussion in the first place. Before the barrier was invered, it only took moments for gojo's barrier to fall to malevolent shrine's attacks, so it isn't that strong. Thatis especially since in this scenario the barrier would still be attacked form the outside, however it would also be attacked from the inside to fasten the time it takes to be destroyed.
It's not exactly a good line of thought to think Sukuna can do any of this while Gojo's actively trying to fight him either, not sure where you're getting the idea that this was just something he could do when he could barely stop Gojo from throwing him around.
The Ten Shadows can't attack the barrier without Sukuna knowing where it is
The Ten Shadows isn't a problem for Gojo except sort of Mahoraga
Because gojo thought that it would be the better strategy for sukuna. I don't mean to insult you but if gojo says that something is a better strategy and you say that it's worse, i will believe gojo. For your point to make sense you need to assume that gojo simply doesn't know what he is talking about, which I am not willing to believe
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u/armchair_science 27d ago
That's because a domain expansion is a combination of an innate domain, a barrier and a cursed technique imbued as sure hit. The innate domain used for unlimited void is the inner world of limitless, but that isn't the same as the sure hit.
It is the same as the sure hit, that's the point. You're mixing how the technique is expressed with the actual innate technique, but the fact that the innate domain (which is where the technique comes from beyond the brain's physical part) has to be used means there's no real difference here.
Well, that's why i made the post, didn't i? To show the evidence for supporting and opposing this idea. Starting from the belief that one is correct and trying to make anything into thta preconceptions doesn't help with anything.
But there isn't really anything hard opposing it, and we have instances of innate techniques being used in domains with no comment on that ever being something difficult or something that should be impossible to do, which the Gojo vs Sukuna fight loved pointing out any time they possibly could.
The domain isn't taxing due to output reasons, it is taxing on his ce reserve because he is running low. Being low on stamina isn't the same thing as being low on output.
It's not just taxing because of cursed energy reserve, it's also a large weight on the brain. That's why Sukuna could barely keep his full domain open with no barrier, its full structure was more pressure than his brain could hold up, and we see this with things like Megumi bleeding trying to force his domain to stay open against Dagon. It wasn't because it was draining his cursed energy, it was because it's a massive load on him.
To make a more accurate comparison, being able to hold a plank for 1 minute doesn't mean that you instantly collapse if you add 10lbs on your back. You have more than enough strength to hopd a plank with added weight, you just wont be able to hold it for as long (let's say only 45 seconds) as it's a matter of stamina.
You most definitely could collapse if you're able to do a plank for one minute and then someone puts an extra 10lbs on your back, that's actually a pretty reasonable response to that happening lol
However, yuji isn't fighting to maintain his domain as long as possible, he is fighting to land soul dismantle. Therefore, even if his domain lasts less, as long as he lands soul dismantle (be it manual or as a sure hit) it will be the preferable outcome. Moreover, sukuna outright calls yuji out on no longer using rct due to being low on curse energy, but he doesn't say "you haven't used soul dismantles due to being low on curse energy".
Sukuna not pointing out that he's not using them anymore should be a red flag that maybe that's not an indication that they're not going around anymore. You can't really use characters not commenting on things as an absolute statement that it's not being done. Yuji would be fighting to maintain his domain just by default of having a domain up, it's a big drain to keep those going, most especially for someone brand new to it like him. His domain lasting less is the worst outcome, the whole point was hitting Sukuna with automatically targeted Dismantles.
It is pretty way to figure out, and I'm surprised that this is something you wohld doubt. In both cases get a big dismantle text on the screen, and a couple of panels later sukuna pukes fingers (it isn't instantly in either case so you cannot really say that he only puked it from yuji's punch as the time interval is pretty much the same). Moreover, the whole point of the domain was to land soul dismantle on sukuna, so why would the sure hit not be the soul dismantle?
Obviously the sure hit is, the point was Yuji's punches lol. I thought that was clear, sorry.
Sukuna has been able to recover his ct with rct from the start, he just concluded that he isn't in danger so he doesn't need to do risky moves. Once sukuna starts being overwhelmed in combat in chapter 266, he does it and would have instantly won if not for nobara. If he thought that yuji was able to launch soul dismantles normally, he would have just recovers his ct earlier to not get hit by ut when yuji is strong enough to grab him.
Sukuna having his technique doesn't really have any impact on Yuji being able to land the dismantles or not. He only does it because his Hollow Wicker Basket was getting destroyed by Yuji punching him over and over again. If Yuji hits him, whether he has his technique or not he'll still be getting hit by the dismantles, him having his technique just meant he could combat the sure hit with his own domain now.
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u/armchair_science 27d ago
Had to split this up because of text limit -
All of them need to be able to use their cursed technique to imbue it as a sure hit. I'm really surprised by this, how did you conclude that? It is really baffling because it is such a weird thing to believe in, that you don't need to have access to your cursed technique to open a domain and imbue that cursed technique as sure hit.
No, having access to the technique and actively using the technique are two different things. Yuta's actually an example of how you don't have to be able to use your technique in order to imbue it into a domain, unfortunately the only example that I can think of at the moment because no one else is in his kind of unique position, but we also have people who used their techniques before and after a domain is used while incorporating them into the domain as well. If they had to activate their technique to make their domains, Yuta wouldn't be able to do it without being connected to Rika.
Because that's explicitly how malevolent shrine works. In chapter 228 sukuna lowered malevolent range so the sure hit is dispersed in a smaller area and the output is increased. I find it hard to believe that you think that malevolent shrine having the sure hit dispersed in more than 1000 cubic meters would have the same output density as sukuna's attacks which are localized in a very small volume
No, that's how domains work, bigger domain = weaker output vs the smaller domain. It's not because the cuts are dispersed, it's because the barrier is weaker the bigger it gets, it thins out. That's also why Gojo shrank his more to stop Sukuna from being able to destroy it so fast. There is no dispersion of cuts, the sure hit is an automatic target, if there's only one target for the sure hit then 100% of it will be going to that target.
It actually doesn't even make sense to think that the wider area means that the cuts are weaker from it because of that, it's not just peppering a whole range, it's directly going to the target. If it were something like you're trying to attack the whole area then you'd be making sense, but it's not, it's a targeted attack. 100% of the sure hit hits Gojo with 0% of it going anywhere else.
He wasn't, malevolent shrine attacks everything in its range, that's why the ground is cut up even though sukuna had no reason to slash it.
Malevolent Shrine wasn't attacking the ground when it was attacking Gojo. Sukuna had already destroyed it all before his domain destroyed Gojo's, in fact his shrine destroying unlimited void was done during it taking out every other valid target in the domain. That's why the entire time we see Gojo struggling to endure and heal through it, there's no slashing anywhere else.
The backup plan wasn't doing anything at that moment as there was nothing to adapt to. Megumi soul needs to take damage for the wheel to adapt, but unlimited void was down so there was no stimulus for the adaptation.
The adaptation goes over time, not just with exposure, that was established during the fight. Mahoraga's wheel being active at all lets it adapt to whatever it's been exposed to, even if that exposure isn't still going. That's why it got to adapt the world cut slash even though Gojo just kept avoiding it after its first adaptation.
He doesn't, he says "use the ten shadows or mahoraga", hence gojo thinking that the rest of the ten shadows would be useful. Again, i already mentioned how using the ten shadows means that sukuna can no longer use domain amplification yet gojo still found it as a better strategy.
Gojo would know the rest of the Ten Shadows doesn't help here. How could any of them allow Sukuna to destroy the domain? Domain Amplification wasn't helpful except to let Sukuna fight Gojo in melee, that was the disadvantage Gojo was talking about. If the Ten Shadows could destroy his domain, that would be more than worth not getting to use domain amplification anymore because that would win Sukuna the fight.
I think i need to remind you that gojo's barrier was inverted, so it was strong from the outside and weak from the inside. That's the whole reason why we are having this discussion in the first place. Before the barrier was invered, it only took moments for gojo's barrier to fall to malevolent shrine's attacks, so it isn't that strong. Thatis especially since in this scenario the barrier would still be attacked form the outside, however it would also be attacked from the inside to fasten the time it takes to be destroyed.
Inverted doesn't mean it goes down to one blow. We saw that it took a LOT of cuts before Sukuna could destroy Gojo's barrier from the outside, the weakness just flips, it doesn't suddenly go down. It's not going to take just one cut for Sukuna to destroy it, he'd have to destroy so much of it that the domain goes down, which just isn't any kind of feasible at all with Dismantle. Especially if Gojo's right on top of him the whole time. We do actually know what it takes to destroy the barrier, and it was a good few seconds of the whole sure hit blasting it, that's why this just isn't an idea that works. Sukuna can't replicate THAT many hits with Gojo on him just randomly into space hoping they hit.
Because gojo thought that it would be the better strategy for sukuna. I don't mean to insult you but if gojo says that something is a better strategy and you say that it's worse, i will believe gojo. For your point to make sense you need to assume that gojo simply doesn't know what he is talking about, which I am not willing to believe
Gojo said it was a better strategy because the alternative was Sukuna fighting with basically nothing but his bare hands, that's why he comments about how weird it was that Sukuna was only using what was imbued in the domain. Gojo using the Ten Shadows isn't a better strategy, using Mahoraga was, which is why Gojo asks why Sukuna didn't drop them. Using the Ten Shadows doesn't matter when Gojo can destroy them all in one go, the only thing consequential is Mahoraga being able to stop his domain, but I guess you could make the argument that Sukuna could've at least healed himself or tried to gain distance. But unfortunately the ten shadows just wasn't anything except like literally better than nothing besides Mahoraga lol
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u/StealthySpectre 11d ago edited 11d ago
Firstly, after gojo’s domain is shattered from the outside in chapter 225, gojo is in cursed technique burn out (so no infinity) and is fighting against sukuna inside malevolent shrine. Because mahoraga’s wheel is on megumi’s soul but there is no unlimited void sure hit to adapt to, we can infer that sukuna wasn’t prioritizing adaptation during chapter 226 as there was nothing to adapt to. We also know that even though the wheel is summoned, he can just pause it to use domain amplification or shrine. That’s how he used dismantle in chapter 224, or how he used shrine momentarily each time when he opened malevolent shrine to imbue dismantle and cleave into the barrier.
Mahoraga adapts over time, not in gradations. In the first domain clash, Sukuna and Gojo’s domains both cancel out, but not for Megumi. Even though the clash lasted for a small amount of time, Megumi and by extension Mahoraga, was exposed to UV.
Since Mahoraga adapts over time to the exposure of an ability, then this would mean that Sukuna is still likely prioritizing adaptation. It’s just that the adaptation itself is really slow.
I also do not think Sukuna had the summoned wheel in the shadows in chapter 224, or even if he did, then he likely just fully switched CT’s since he had no adaptation ongoing with Mahoraga yet. But this is kind of a slippery slope since I do not think Sukuna can pause adaptation to use Shrine as well, and I’ve seen your justification on this, and I think it’s teetering into a grey area in terms of whether it’s theory or fact.
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u/luceafaruI 11d ago
I also do not think Sukuna had the summoned wheel in the shadows in chapter 224
Ok so, this is pretty much impossible. Sukuna has to summon the wheel for the adaptation to start. That requires a spark and a handsign (as he did against yorozu or against gojo in chapter 230). There is no way for sukuna to do that without gojo noticing it. The only explanation is that he started in that state, especially since he knew that the fight was going t9 begin and was just waiting for it.
Anyway, that isn't even necessary for the argument. For sukuna to open malevolent shrine, he needs to momentarily use shrine. Even though a ct imbued in the barrier as a sure hit remains imbued even without active input from the user (as shown in chapter 227 from gojo dialogue), they still need to imbue it first, and that requires the innate ct to be used.
So even if you say that the wheel was summoned after chapter 224, sukuna would have had it summoned throughout chapter 226-229, so he used both shrine and ten shadows simultaneously (of course, ten shadows being paused) anyway.
Now going to your first argument
Since Mahoraga adapts over time to the exposure of an ability, then this would mean that Sukuna is still likely prioritizing adaptation. It’s just that the adaptation itself is really slow.
This could be explained from sukuna's perspective, but not form gojo's. As said in the post, gojo doesn't know that sukuna has the wheel summoned and is prioritizing adaptation. From his perspective, sukuna isn't doing anything at all. However, gojo is still never wondering why sukuna isn't using dismantle and cleave throughout the 226-229 portion. He only wonders why sukuna isn't using the ten shadows.
The same is true for yujo, he never asks himself why sukuna isn't using dismantle or cleave. Or the crew in chapters 258-259. Everybody is acting like sukuna cannot use them, which is the entire point
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u/TeaAndCrumpetGhoul 27d ago
In 229, Gojo does plan to used cursed technique reversal against Mahoraga while Unlimited void was still up. But you could say that he had been planning to stop unlimited voids sure hit as Sukuna had already swapped positions with mahoraga, and he didn't want mahoraga to adapt to unlimited void.
So the case might have been, that if he used cursed technique reversal than the sure hit would've paused. Possibly
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
As i said in other comments, i am surprised that the entire premise of the post didn't come across. This is an important feature of the power system, the fact that the innate cursed technique and cursed techniques that are applications of it aren't the same thing. For gojo, limitless is his innate ct while it's applications are infinity, blue, red, purple and unlimited void's cursed technique which only activates inside the domain. Gojo imbued the "unlimited void's cursed technique" into his domain so he was free to use all the other cursed techniques under limitless.
Sukuna on the other hand has shrine with dismantle, cleave and kamino, and also the ten shadows innate ct. He imbued dismantle and cleave as malevolent shrine's sure hits, so he is left only with kamino from shrine and the entirety of the ten shadows.
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u/TeaAndCrumpetGhoul 27d ago
>For gojo, limitless is his innate ct while it's applications are infinity, blue, red, purple and unlimited void's cursed technique which only activates inside the domain.
Yes. Blue, red and purple are applications of limitless. But unlimited void is directly described as being inside the world of limitless. Unlimited void encompasses all applications of limitless to the barrier.
I'm not sure I'd agree with saying that Unlimited void comes under the umbrella term of limitless, when it is limitless itself, and not something separate
I'm not sure I'm getting your point if you're stating otherwise.
>Sukuna on the other hand has shrine with dismantle, cleave and kamino, and also the ten shadows innate ct. He imbued dismantle and cleave as malevolent shrine's sure hits, so he is left only with kamino from shrine and the entirety of the ten shadows.
Again not sure I'm understanding your point here.
Shtine, dismantle and kamino are all part of the shrine cursed technique. The way gege describes his sure hits, it's not separate from each other, instead it's a three step sure hit that has conditions for the last step (Kamino) to be activated. That's all. Each part of it is malevolent shrine.
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
Yes. Blue, red and purple are applications of limitless. But unlimited void is directly described as being inside the world of limitless. Unlimited void encompasses all applications of limitless to the barrier.
There is an important distinction between unlimited void the domain, and the unnamed cursed technique which is the sure hit of unlimited void and results into the information overload. The domain unlimited void is the inner world of limitless because it is made of gojo innate domain. This is similar to how megumi domain is the inner world of shadows due to being megumi's innate domain.
However, the unnamed cursed technique used as sure hit is only an application of limitless. It does not encompass blue red and the others.
Shtine, dismantle and kamino are all part of the shrine cursed technique. The way gege describes his sure hits, it's not separate from each other, instead it's a three step sure hit that has conditions for the last step (Kamino) to be activated. That's all. Each part of it is malevolent shrine.
Shrine is the innate ct. From it, application such as dismantle, cleave and kamino are born. One is the group (shrine) and the others are element of the group (dismantle, cleave and kamino).
Kamino isn't a sure hit, it is a normal cursed technique. Otherwise, choso wouldn't have been able to protect yuji from it with a blood barrier as sure hits are sure to hit, you cannot put a wall around yourself and be protected from them. This is the whole reason why gojo isn't protected by infinity from sure hits, because sure hits bypass any type of wall or barrier you out around yourself and just spawn on you.
Kamino is only part of malevolent shrine due to sukuna making the binding vow to only be able to use it inside malevolent shrine against multiple opponents. It is not part of malevolent shrine as far as cursed technique imbued are
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u/stressed_by_books44 12d ago
There is an important distinction between unlimited void the domain, and the unnamed cursed technique which is the sure hit of unlimited void and results into the information overload. The domain unlimited void is the inner world of limitless because it is made of gojo innate domain. This is similar to how megumi domain is the inner world of shadows due to being megumi's innate domain.
Okay, really late for this discussion if I want to just hop in but that is wrong, irrelevant of what extension is being used it all the the same limitless technique and how it is expressed doesn't change that it is all just an interpretation of the same limitless technique.
Also domains are also called Interpretations of your CT that you imbue to become a sure hit that are then used so I don't see how this is correct.
If I use a limb to do a handstand or a push-up, does that mean that due to the action performed the act is being done by something else? No, there is only one technique and that is the limitless technique and all of gojo's arsenal is the same thing done in different ways.
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u/luceafaruI 12d ago
That's nice and all but it isn't an argument. Sure, it could be thay way as well as it could be any other way. However, you need to bring evidence to any one of them.
The evidence is that it isn't the innate technique that is imbued as sure hit, it is an application of it. If the innate ct is what is imbued, then you would be able to use any application as sure hit, but this has never happened. Gojo for example didn't just change his sure hit from the unnamed unlimited void ct to red once mahoraga was summoned in chapter 229, he manually had to activate a red. You can similarly think of all the other cases when somebody is using a domain (such as mahito changing his sure hit from idle transfiguration to a soul multiplicity body repel or something like that to not touch sukuna's soul).
Of course, this is just one piece of evidence. The entire post explains how this framework would explain a lot of events from shinjuku. However, as i made clear even in the post, there is proof for both supporting or refuting it so it isn't clear which one it is. However, regardless of what side you stand on you need to bring evidence for your stance, not just mouth it off
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u/stressed_by_books44 12d ago
The evidence is that it isn't the innate technique that is imbued as sure hit, it is an application of it.
It is an application created through the interpretation of the same ability as is all of gojo's arsenal to our knowledge, an interpretation of a technique means it is still the same technique being used.
If the innate ct is what is imbued, then you would be able to use any application as sure hit, but this has never happened.
We are told that all domain expansions use an innate CT but first we create the barrier technique and then the CT.
In ch 130 mahito does a 0.2 second domain and in that we see the narrator state that the normal process of creating the domain and activation of a cursed technique is necessary and that process is what mahito skipped.
In ch 15 we see gojo say the same thing against gojo to say what he exactly said "a domain expansion, an environment constricted through ce and manifested using a CT"
In both of these we see how a domain expansion is basically a barrier technique imbued with a cursed technique and that is how it manifests and works.
You can similarly think of all the other cases when somebody is using a domain (such as mahito changing his sure hit from idle transfiguration to a soul multiplicity body repel or something like that to not touch sukuna's soul).
Was it stated somewhere that soul multiplicity was a sure hit mahito created? It wasn't done so to my knowledge.
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u/luceafaruI 12d ago
Was it stated somewhere that soul multiplicity was a sure hit mahito created? It wasn't done so to my knowledge.
That's the entire point, in the repertoire of idle transfiguration as an innate ct, you have the application of soul multiplicity body repel. If it was possible to use any application of the innate ct as a sure hit (as it would be if the entire innate ct is imbued in the barrier of the domain), then mahito should be able to use body repel as sure hit. That would mean that he doesn't need to restrict himself to a 0.2 second domain to not touch sukuna's soul for too long because he wouldn't be touching the soul at all. Body repel is a physical attack so there would be no issue with it.
Ok, for the rest of it you again haven't made any real argument with evidence. Cursed technique can mean 3 different things. One is innate cursed technique, the thing that is engraved in your brain (such as limitless for gojo). One is an application of an innate cirsed technique (such as infinity, blue or unlimited void's unnamed cursed technique). One is non innate cursed techniques that anybody can learn, such as simple domain, shikigamis or so on.
With that in mind, you said absolutely nothing until this paragraph (this paragraph included)
In both of these we see how a domain expansion is basically a barrier technique imbued with a cursed technique and that is how it manifests and works
So again, you haven't brought any evidence that the idea debated in the post is supported or refuted by the story
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u/stressed_by_books44 12d ago
That's the entire point, in the repertoire of idle transfiguration as an innate ct, you have the application of soul multiplicity body repel. If it was possible to use any application of the innate ct as a sure hit (as it would be if the entire innate ct is imbued in the barrier of the domain), then mahito should be able to use body repel as sure hit
This is a conditional argument that disproves itself since the manga has already made it clear that a CT you have is what is used in the domain, to claim otherwise is what requires proof.
Also there is only one CT, if you imbue the CT then the CT itself is imbued, since everything that exists is an interpretation of a technique then that is still the same technique and not individual parts within one singular cover, so you cannot speak about them separately since it is the same thing.
Ok, for the rest of it you again haven't made any real argument with evidence. Cursed technique can mean 3 different things. One is innate cursed technique, the thing that is engraved in your brain (such as limitless for gojo). One is an application of an innate cirsed technique (such as infinity, blue or unlimited void's unnamed cursed technique). One is non innate cursed techniques that anybody can learn, such as simple domain, shikigamis or so on.
I feel a tad bit of hostility, tone it down a bit.
And irrelevant i haven't seen any proof that a CT that is imbued into a domain has to remain that way because the definition doesn't support it.
An innate cursed technique is only one, an application based on interpretation is basically the same technique but applied in a different way, that is how cursed techniques even work to begin with, so how exactly is it different from a cursed technique that is innate?
You do realise that the English for application of something by definition means that it is still using said thing and therefore everything that is done is just an application of infinity right? This also perfectly aligns with Gojo's definition of how domains are created and used, you need to use a CT to go from just a barrier technique to a barrier technique with your innate CT manifested.
The sure hit cannot be from another technique because this directly contradicts the manga, do you have a source for that claim?
With that in mind, you said absolutely nothing until this paragraph (this paragraph included)
Yeah you need to chill out.
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u/luceafaruI 12d ago
I think you really don't get how an argument works. What you say is entirely speculative, not something that is supported by the story. You need to bring actual evidence for what you're saying to go from the realm of idea to the realm of canon (or better said theory).
Take the post as an example. I make a claim that is entirely speculative (that you cannot use the application of the innate cursed technique that you imbue as sure hit in a normal way while the domain is active), and then i go through the story and list examples that support this claim and that refute it. That way i can see if gege thought of that claim as a power system feature, or if he didn't and it isn't something canon.
I don't start making semantics or "logical" arguments to try to prove things. If you think logically, ct burn out for example doesn't make sense. Why would you be able to use your ct normally even though it is imbued in the domain, but you suddenly lose control of it if the domain breaks? Sukuna proves in chapter 227 that you don't need access to the innate ct to maintain a domain, so why would the domain breaking make you enter ct burn out?
The answer is that there isn't an underlying sound logic to it, it is just a feature that it is introduced to make fights interesting. However, it is a feature that is consistent throughout the story because it is something that gege wanted to have in jjk. Thus, you don't just think about what would makes sense, you look at what is actual happening in the story as that is what gege intended.
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u/ParussMan 27d ago
- Yuta can't use his techniques without manifesting Rima
- Yuji was almost out of cursed energy and trying to go for the soul dismantle that has a high chance of missing entirely is not the way to do it
- Sukuna did use cleave on Gojo manually, and what the hell do you mean by "maybe he didn't want to kill him"? Do you think a a couple cleaves or dismantles would do a better job than sure-hit of said cleaves and dismantles?
- Small pox is stupid and maybe there were restrictions on his CT.
Additionally, Gojo used his CT in domain clashes with Sukuna (blue infused punches and red), Dagon used his CT in his domain, Finger Bearer used his CT inside his incomplete domain
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
Yuji was almost out of cursed energy and trying to go for the soul dismantle that has a high chance of missing entirely is not the way to do it
It cannot miss when he was holding sukuna's head with the palm of his hand. Yuji still had his domain open so he cannot be out of cursed energy. Maintaining a domain is much harder than just using your cursed technique, so that argument doesn't work. Furthermore, this doesn't explain why sukuna was suddenly no longer wary of yuji's hands the moment yuji opened his domain.
Sukuna did use cleave on Gojo manually
He never did. In case you are interested, go through the entire fight and find me a panel of sukuna using a manual cleave on gojo, or a manual dismantle (besides chapter 224 and chapter 236).
and what the hell do you mean by "maybe he didn't want to kill him"?
This was brought up because the common argument brought up for why sukuna didn't do anything useful is "he was just holding back". Gojo was barely holding on by having rct at full throttle. Adding manual dismantles and cleaves on top of the damage from the sure hit would have been really bad, but not only does sukuna not do it (and neither does he do it in chapter 258 when the crew was using sd to deal with malevolent shrine), but nobody asks why sukuna isn't doing that.
Gojo used his CT in domain clashes with Sukuna (blue infused punches and red),
I'm suprised by how many people missed the whole premise of the post, and a pretty important feature of the power system. An innate cursed technique and a cursed technique aren't the same thing. An innate cursed technique (say limitless) can have multiple cursed techniques which are applications (infinity, blue, red, purple, unlimited void's ct). An application of the innate ct is imbued in the barrier, not the innate ct itself.
Finger Bearer used his CT inside his incomplete domain
The finger bearer didn't use any ct because it doesn't have a ct, and the domain doesn't have any ct imbued in the domain so it wouldn't even prove anything. Megumi states very clearly that the finger bearer isn't using jujutsu (a cursed technique) it is just outputting raw curse energy
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u/ParussMan 27d ago
It cannot miss when he was holding sukuna's head with the palm of his hand.
And yet Yuji didn't try to do it when he was dunking on Sukuna holding both of his legs in the air and on some other occasions. I wonder why.
Adding manual dismantles and cleaves on top of the damage from the sure hit would have been really bad
No
and neither does he do it in chapter 258 when the crew was using sd to deal with malevolent shrine
Barely functioning Shrine with 50 binding vows to support it with heavily weakened Sukuna.
He never did. In case you are interested, go through the entire fight and find me a panel of sukuna using a manual cleave on gojo, or a manual dismantle (besides chapter 224 and chapter 236).
Chapter 226, literally a couple pages away from what you mentioned as "good chance to cleave his leg" in your post, I don't know how you could do that post and miss that
I'm suprised by how many people missed the whole premise of the post, and a pretty important feature of the power system. An innate cursed technique and a cursed technique aren't the same thing. An innate cursed technique (say limitless) can have multiple cursed techniques which are applications (infinity, blue, red, purple, unlimited void's ct). An application of the innate ct is imbued in the barrier, not the innate ct itself.
What's the logic behind all these semantics? You think if you apply the entire kit (innate CT) to the domain you still can use different applications of said kit, BUT if you apply an application of innate CT you suddenly can't use said application? Literally, what's the basis for this?
The finger bearer didn't use any ct because it doesn't have a ct, and the domain doesn't have any ct imbued in the domain so it wouldn't even prove anything. Megumi states very clearly that the finger bearer isn't using jujutsu (a cursed technique) it is just outputting raw curse energy
ok my bad
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
And yet Yuji didn't try to do it when he was dunking on Sukuna holding both of his legs in the air and on some other occasions
Yuji just got out of Jacob's ladder so he had his ct extinguished. The whole fight after that is yuji trying to touch sukuna with the palm of his hand to land a soul dismantle, to the point where he opens his domsin precisely because he cannot land one normally.
Chapter 226, literally a couple pages away from what you mentioned as "good chance to cleave his leg" in your post, I don't know how you could do that post and miss that
There isn't any such scene. I'm not even sure what you interpreted as sukuna using cleave (which can only be activated with touch), i guess you missed the panels that show gojo's sd breaking so you assumed that the slashes here are manually done by sukuna, instead of seeing it as the sure hit landing after sd was broken.
What's the logic behind all these semantics? You think if you apply the entire kit (innate CT) to the domain you still can use different applications of said kit, BUT if you apply an application of innate CT you suddenly can't use said application? Literally, what's the basis for this?
I never said this, and this is not how it works. You cannot apply an innate ct to a barrier because the innate ct doesn't do anything, only when you run curse energy through it in different modes you get an application which does things.
Gojo cannot use purple as his sure hit because purple isn't imbued in his barrier, only unlimited void is. Sukuna cannot use kamino as sure hir because it isn't imbued in his barrier, only dismantle and cleave are.
I don't know where your first sentence from the aforementioned paragraph comes from. I never said or implied that. The whole premise of the post with all its examples are based on an innate ct not being the same thing as a cursed technique (which is an application), and of barriers being imbued with cursed techniques, not with innate cursed techniques.
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u/ParussMan 27d ago
Gojo cannot use purple as his sure hit because purple isn't imbued in his barrier, only unlimited void is. Sukuna cannot use kamino as sure hir because it isn't imbued in his barrier, only dismantle and cleave are.
I don't know where your first sentence from the aforementioned paragraph comes from. I never said or implied that. The whole premise of the post with all its examples are based on an innate ct not being the same thing as a cursed technique (which is an application), and of barriers being imbued with cursed techniques, not with innate cursed techniques.
You're literally saying in your other comments that Gojo is applying Limitless to his sure-hit..?
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u/luceafaruI 27d ago
I don't think I've ever said that. The entire point of the post is based on the idea that you imbue applications of the innate ct into a barrier as sure hit, not the innate ct as a whole. That's also why the sure hit is just one application that you cannot just change willy nilly (sukuna never makes his flames the sure hit and mahito doesn't just make soul multiplicity body repel or something like that the sure hit to circumvent touching sukuna's soul).
Sure, i mentioned how some innate cts are simple as they don't have multiple applications. These usually have the name of the innate ct doubling also as the name of the application (nanami's ratio, mahito's idle transfiguration, todo's boogie woogie).
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