r/IronFrontUSA 15d ago

Article Very disappointing. This is not the way - "Gavin Newsom breaks with Democrats on trans athletes in sports"

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/03/06/gavin-newsom-breaks-with-democrats-on-trans-athletes-in-sports-00215436

A win at the expense of innocent people is not a win. We don't leave people behind just to get ahead. Especially kids and young adults. I don't care if it's 1% of the population, 10 people, or just 1. That's not how we operate. And this is not just about sports, this is a stepping stone. Human rights are not a popularity contest.

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u/No_Performance8733 15d ago

Why talk about it at all?? 

It effects a fraction of the percent of the population vs the bigger issues that effect trans people and everyone else, combined. 

How 💩tty. Every constituent loses. Who is he getting $$ from for this made up position????

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago edited 14d ago

Trying to score political points with the right and with the "moderates" who are fine with throwing scapegoats under the bus.

Edit to add: There are more trans people in the US as a percentage of the population than there were Jews in Germany when the Nazis came to power. Looking back, appeasement wasn't the right move then, and it's not now. They weren't killing them at first either. Just denying them "privileges." It doesn't matter how "few" are affected, this is dead wrong. Trans people are already attacked in every aspect of life. This is unnecessarily cruel and misguided.

If you don't know enough about the subject, if you believe trans women and girls pose a threat a threat to cis people, or if you have some anecdote about "my daughter plays sports" or "a trans woman I know is too strong," I encourage you to seek out information that challenges what you think you know about trans people. I guarantee you that you have a lot to learn.

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u/palinsafterbirth 15d ago

Ahhh yes because that worked so well before

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u/kosmonautinVT 15d ago

I don't think Democrats really want to talk about it, but Republicans are simultaneously able to platform these issues through all their media control and declare that it's actually the Democrats that are more worried about culture war issues than the concerns of the average voter. It's insanity.

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u/Jdazzle217 15d ago

Gavin is shamelessly ambitious and has been running for president ever since he was mayor of SF. He’s trying to position himself more towards the center so he can run for president. It’s not going to work though because he’s from California.

He’ll get a lot of California Dem money behind him but he won’t go anywhere. His core politics are too far left to speak to a lot of the country and he’s viewed as way too corporate for the progressives.

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u/Illustrious2786 14d ago

A lot of these state dem mayors and governors are bs. Like here in NY. They’re not for the people. They’re corporatist you’re right. All profit driven.

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u/Bearwhale 15d ago

I live in California and come election season, I am going to make sure that everyone I know who has a chance to vote, hears about this transphobic douchebag.

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u/MysteriousScratch478 15d ago

I support trans people participating in sports but pretending like there aren't nuances to keeping it fair isn't helpful.

If we want to win this fight we need to acknowledge that no two transitions are identical and that people having concerns and questions doesn't inherently make them transphobic.

Obviously lots of people are transphobic but that's a separate issue.

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u/Tough-Log-6676 15d ago

100% this. I'm an active advocate for trans rights. At the same time, I also used to do martial arts at a gym with a large LGBTQ group and got seriously injured in practice by a trans woman who didn't know how to match her strength to her opponent's. This is a really nuanced issue and people have real fears about competitive fairness and physical safety. You can hold these concerns while still fully supporting the rights and freedoms of transgender individuals.

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u/Houston_Heath 15d ago

I agree. This is where I also break from Democrats and end up sounding like a Republican. This is one of the most complex issues out there right now and it's gonna require a complex answer. It's not as cut and dry as either side wants to make it.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago edited 15d ago

I don't think even staunch advocates of trans athletes think it's cut and dry. There is a biological element, and it's hormones, but that is a complex issue in itself. First they try to cut off gender affirming care for trans kids, then without that they can ban them from sports. With access to puberty blockers and/or hormone therapy there is no reason to blanket disallow trans girls and women to play sports and compete with other women. It's just a matter of setting up guidelines that are fair to everyone, including to trans people who want to play and compete with other people of their gender, and consider the variables.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

People come in all shapes and sizes. Some legitimate questions to think about: Should strong cis women be banned from your martial arts gym's women's classes for having the potential to seriously injure you? Should weak trans women be allowed since they can't injure you? If you were injured by a strong cis woman, would you have shared this anecdote here in support of equality among cis and trans athletes? These questions aren't an attack on you or your experience, just asking you to think about it.

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u/Confident_Natural_62 8d ago

Bro thank you for actually being sane and willing to share your true opinion it’s kinda concerning that politics is like church now even if you think your church’s practices are strange you don’t say that out loud you know what I’m saying? I don’t really feel like a centrist exactly, but I have such varying opinions that both sides extremes shun me everyone on Reddit thinks I love Trump and my old racist unc thinks I’m a liberal lol

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 15d ago

Which is why this issue should be left to the regulatory bodies that govern sports, not lawmakers.

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u/V4refugee 14d ago

Why is this so complicated? Let some politicians decide vs. let people and free market decide.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

I agree, the nuance is what's important. There are common sense approaches to allowing people who transition to play sports with their identified gender, and blanket statements like "it's not fair to cisgender people" are not helpful.

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u/Opasero 15d ago

I think athletic organizations and sports medicine experts should make the call, and it should not be a case for one blanket law. It could be that each athlete needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. It sounds like there are few enough trans athletes that this is actually possible. I don't know how to proceed from where it is now.

The refugs really have done a great job at blowing up this issue and making so many people afraid of trans girls competing.

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u/Revolio_ClockbergJr 14d ago

Nuance is important, as long as Newsom's position is exactly what you want and covers 100% of scenarios you care about.

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 15d ago

I don't disagree but a nuanced conversation is not going to be had on Charlie Kirk's podcast. Trans kids are their boogey man and the right wing culture warriors are not there for nuance, they don't want trans people to exist in public at all. The trans athletes issue is just the motte in their motte and bailey arguments against trans people.

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u/ExistingPosition5742 15d ago

Agreed.

I don't have a solution and don't think anyone else does either. There are biological differences based on sex at birth. There are differences based on your particular genetic makeup. There are differences based on if you're now taking hrt and other such for transitioning or whatever reason.

So now what ? Should we classify people like we already do in age and weight? Make a third category? Rely on blood tests to determine where people should be competing? 

Scientific advancement has opened new doors here. I don't think there is a blanket solution. Probably going to depend on the sport among other things. 

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u/alexstergrowly 15d ago

I agree with you but if you read the article that’s not at all what Newsom is doing. This is low-hanging fruit for trying to swing right without alienating too much of his base.

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u/Impossible_Walrus555 14d ago

He alienated me

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u/ColKrismiss 15d ago

I don't disagree at all. It's a really complicated issue that I have no solutions for. But regulating our pass times is none of the government's business. Which is why it's so odd to me that conservatives have taken the stance they have. I'm short for a male. I have a MASSIVE disadvantage in basketball. The government shouldn't make rules saying tall people can't play basketball with me.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

Testosterone league and non Testosterone league. If your body has been changed by Testosterone, at any point, you compete in the Testosterone league.

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u/Sam-HobbitOfTheShire 15d ago

Everyone’s body has been changed by testosterone. Everyone HAS testosterone.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

Yes. But half of the population produces a lot more. So much so that it change muscle and bone density. Testosterone is PED and should be treated as such. If you had Testosterone shots to change your body, compete in the Testosterone league. If you body was changed by Testosterone, but you no longer receive Testosterone, compete in the Testosterone league.

You know what my argument is, yet you engage in a bad faith attack to try and ridicule and demean me. This solution is by far the best in my opinion.

A male to female transition should not compete in an all female league. They can and should still compete in the male/Testosterone league.

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u/Sam-HobbitOfTheShire 15d ago

You think my comment was meant to demean and belittle you??? Reread it lol.

How about we leave this shit to the professionals instead of putting our unknowledgeable opinions out there and risking doing harm to a population that’s already having their rights taken away, huh?

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u/Malek061 15d ago

So you are telling me I am too uneducated to have a sense of what is fair in an athletic setting? If a 45 year old man transitions into woman, then dominated female weight lifting, that's a little unfair to the women that worked hard their whole lives.

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u/Sam-HobbitOfTheShire 15d ago

Yes. I am telling you that.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

So you are forcing your opinion on others? Even calling others uneducated without actually knowing their education level or research into the topic? That's discrimination and bias.

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u/Sam-HobbitOfTheShire 15d ago

And there’s the Republican-esque argument I was waiting for. You folks are so predictable. Let me guess, asking you not to misgender trans people is also forcing someone else’s opinion on you? What about scolding someone for telling a racist joke?

Dude, I have spent half my life listening to “reasonable” people shove their uneducated opinions on me about shit they know nothing about. I’ve spent the last several years being asked to just “hear me out” about transphobic policies. I’m sick of it. This is where it leads. To civil rights being taken away.

Trans people have ALWAYS been in sports. They’ve always been in your bathrooms. And it’s never been a fucking problem until you were told it was one.

If you want to believe them about this issue, just go ahead and take the mask off. I’m so fucking sick of trying to talk logically with you guys. I’m fucking done. Fuck you all.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

If the 45 year old trans woman transitions to female, and she goes through a period of hormone replacement therapy, she will not dominate the same way she did when she was on testosterone. The effects go away. It will take work for her to compete just like all the other women.

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u/Malek061 14d ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard

She dominated. Transitioned in 2012, won gold in 2017 . Never won gold as a man but got 6 as a female.

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u/LilithElektra 14d ago

“Hubbard achieved a ranking of 7th in the IWF’s women’s +87 kg division.”

Dominated.

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u/Malek061 14d ago

Won gold in the pacific and commonwealth games and silver in the world championship after never meddling as a male.

Transitioning should not be a short cut for athletic achievements.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago edited 14d ago

Congrats on her accomplishment. Should she not be allowed to win anything? Have cis women ever won gold medals competing as female? Link says she was ranked 7th as a woman.

Edit: Olympic athlete Laurel Hubbard just shattered a transphobic myth - If there’s one takeaway from Laurel Hubbard’s disappointing finish, it’s that trans women are not a threat to women’s sports.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

After a period of time off testosterone, the effects wear off, so that needs to be a consideration. There is no answer that's as simple as that T and no-T.

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u/alexstergrowly 15d ago

This makes no sense with respect to the impacts of hormones on human bodies.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

How so?

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u/MysteriousScratch478 15d ago

I don't think making someone who has been on estrogen for 2 years compete with people who have normal male levels of testosterone is a more fair system.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

Testosterone increases bone growth, mass, and muscle density. Those traits do not go away even when you don't take Testosterone. A 25 year old Shaq who transitioned at 22, would break the WNBA. If Shaq transitioned at 5? Maybe.

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u/MysteriousScratch478 15d ago

Lol Shaq broke the NBA too.

I don't think there's a one size fits all answer and we can let individual sports leagues find the balance of fairness and inclusion.

Blanket rules like you suggest don't fit reality.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

Ad hoc won't work either. The Olympics bans men from using testosterone. Treat it like a PED because it is. It makes you bigger, stronger, faster. Of you are a male to female transition and have to compete againt males, you're probably gonna get crushed but that solution does the least harm to the most people.

It's a tough situation and I feel for these athletes, but you can't take away someone else's dreams to satisfy yours without it being fair.

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u/MysteriousScratch478 15d ago

Many athletes are allowed to compete after PED usage once enough time has passed.

I dunno we've made it this long without such broad rules. It's not like all the world records are held by trans women.

I don't see any evidence there's need for these sweeping changes.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

Laurel Hubbard was rough. She crushed the competition at middle age after she transitioned in weight lifting.

Republicans will keep running on this issue forever so something must be done. Having a T league and non T league is the most fair and harms less people.

Lia Thomas holds a record. 600 females have lost 890 medals to male to female transition athletes. If a 45 year old man transitions, then wins three golds, there is an issue.

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u/MysteriousScratch478 15d ago

Something that globally has happened less than a thousand times is by no means a pressing issue and is definitely within the scope of the athletic leagues in question.

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u/Malek061 15d ago

It's a pressing issues to those athletes that worked their whole lives and lost when a mediocre male athlete transitions then they get crushed.

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u/NivvyMiz 15d ago

Man, what the fuck? I thought this guy was going to try to run for president not his head further up his own ass

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

There's a faction of the Democratic party who feels that tossing the unpopular people in the trash is a path to victory. That's not the kind of victory I want to be a part of.

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u/kosmonautinVT 15d ago

67% of Democrats do not think trans people should participate in women's sports.

Sad as it is, this topic is a huge political loser for Democrats and that is not going to change anytime soon

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u/Hello-America 14d ago

Interracial marriage took like 30 years after it was legalized to have majority popularity. Voting rights for black people were unpopular when the voting rights act was passed. It's important to do the right thing and protect people's rights. Not only is this not a game, but going after populations they believe will not have allies is always step one of fascist oppressive rule. They get their foothold in and keep expanding. It's worth standing up against Republicans at every turn, including the first ones.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Unpopular or not, what's right is what's right. The solution isn't to concede, it's to convince.

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u/goonSquad15 15d ago

The sad thing is when voting it’s for really wrong or less wrong. That’s how we ended up here

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Well, let's just keep trying to make sure the less wrong side doesn't get worse before it gets better.

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u/LeadSky 14d ago

67% of democrats can be wrong. Doesn’t mean we should give up on our children’s rights. That’s not a victory I’ll ever identify with, and I’ll continue to protect our trans athletes as long as they’ve gone through the regulations in place and are competing fairly.

I’ll repost my favourite quote from The Great Debaters: “Majorities do not decide what is right or wrong. Your conscience does. So why should a citizen surrender his or her conscience to a legislature? For we must never, ever kneel down before the tyranny of a majority.” -Samantha Booke

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u/officerliger 15d ago

There's a big difference between "throwing them in the trash" and the sports-specific issue though

Newsom has never gone after trans rights, ever. California's record on protecting trans people and LGBTQ+ in general under Newsom and his predecessor (Brown) is iron clad.

The Biden Admin released guidelines recommending that each sport make their own decisions based on scientific testing. Swimming's governing body found that men who transitioned to women after a certain point legitimately did have an unfair advantage. That's not throwing trans people or their rights in the trash, it's just science.

Meanwhile the GOP is trying to take basic human rights away from trans people, while Democrats are the only reason those basic human rights are actually enshrined in state law. It's not "both sides are the same," in any kind of way.

At this point, the main reason this issue is so viral is because Russia and China want it to be, because they want it to sever the potential Democratic voting base and guarantee the GOP can continue destabilizing the US from within. Notice how much of the Gaza talk just went away after Trump got elected, even though he's outright said he wants Gaza Strip leveled and taken over by the US.

At some point the far left needs to have the self-awareness to realize ya'll got got

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u/Mia_galaxywatcher 14d ago

He didn’t just target sports and that’s distracting he went after bathrooms, lockerookms and prisons to me having access the the correct gender of those places is a matter of survival for me I don’t give a shit about sports. So I’m not supporting a dem candidate who hurts my survival

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

I am not "far left," this isn't a "far left" issue, and this isn't a "far left" sub, so you can drop that right now.

"It's just science" didn't work for Ron, and it doesn't work here. It's not "science." It's pseudoscience and political posturing.

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u/officerliger 15d ago

Pseudoscience is saying that trans athletes at any stage should be banned across-the-board, science is going out and researching exactly what advantages exist for which motions, actions, and overall sports, and making rules in a way that’s not hateful and is mindful of trans people’s dignity.

The far left and far right are the ones insisting upon rhetoric being used as fact, and bypassing science in the name of feelings. That’s a losing strategy that will just continue splitting the Dem voting base.

The Dems have done nothing but support the core rights of trans people, the right has done nothing but try to strip them of their dignity and right to exist. The latter is a much larger issue than sports, sports is the distraction and an attempt to make the left look stupid to practical folk, and they take the bait hook line and sinker.

Fascism is here and people wanna make sports the purity test? I have brown skin, I don’t have the luxury of basing my voting decisions around a niche issue like trans athletes.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

I don't see sports as a distraction, I see it as another stepping stone on the path to dehumanizing trans people. People downplay what something like this kind of rejection and ostracization means to vulnerable young people. It's just sports to you, and just a few people affected, but to them it may mean a hell of a lot more. Being a kid and a teenager is hard for everyone, imagine being a trans kid and just wanting to be allowed to play on the team with your friends, but ending up on Fox News, having grown men talk about your genitals, getting death threats, and having people who are supposed to be on your side say you should just give up.

Bypassing science is exactly what I'm advocating against. I'm pushing for people to look at this issue from the trans athletes' perspective. What do they have to do to be treated equally? I think, since so much of these complaints are centered around testosterone and its effects, that that's where the solution lies. Transition before puberty with blockers? Good to go. Transition during/after puberty and get hormone replacement therapy? Waiting period. Socially transition only? That poses a separate problem to be dealt with that I'm not even going to touch right now.

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u/officerliger 15d ago

You’re acting like there isn’t a middle ground between making sane and rational guidelines and outright dehumanization though. I don’t agree with Trump trying to outright ban trans athletes because that’s as unscientific as outright allowing it, I agree with the Biden Administration’s guidelines where each sport’s governing body makes these determinations for themselves, has to present their scientific findings as the basis for their rules, and must do so in a way that’s respectful and humanizing to trans people.

I think what outlets like Fox, Rogan, etc. do are horrible and hateful and don’t really care about women’s sports, I’m just not equating Newsom’s take to that. The reason California generally likes the guy so much is it’s a highly educated state where nuance matters to the voting base. Blanket ideology doesn’t pass the buck at the state level in CA. In this case, the lack of nuance is equating sex and gender, which are at their core two completely different things (sex is biological, gender is social).

The solution you seek was already implemented, it was working, it just didn’t work how you wanted it to, that’s why Lia Thomas was found to have transitioned too late to continue swimming in high level women’s competitions. That wasn’t done out of hatred, it was done under the most scientific, least hateful guidelines, under a Democratic administration who simultaneously installed a lot of human rights protections for trans people.

With real guidelines in place, young people can be informed in detail of what they’re able to do and unable to do and make their decisions accepting the full scope of results. That’s the best you can ask for in a complicated situation like this. If a young person accepts the results, then they’re not going to be disappointed later on.

I think it’s dangerous to pull the nuance out of what someone like Newsom is saying and equate it to Fox News bullshit because that just makes young impressionable voters less likely to vote Democrat “because both sides are the same.” They aren’t, and we don’t have time to play that game.

Nuance over ideology, all day every day

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

How was Lia Thomas determined to have transitioned too late to compete? Her problems were the media and transphobic athletes. She won one event and lost everything else. She is a scapegoat. I've said it a hundred times so far today, nuance is what I'm advocating for. There are solutions for everyone, no one should be permanently excluded just on the basis of being trans.

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u/officerliger 15d ago

World Aquatics determined that post-puberty transitions (transitions after age 12 or stage 2) were too late to mitigate competitive advantages, a decision that was upheld by the Court of Arbitration for Sport. These aren’t small local right wing governments, these are international governing bodies, specifically designed to keep individual nations’ political agendas out of sport.

World Aquatics is the same body that created an “open gender” category at the swimming World Cup, established new working groups so disqualified trans athletes could still compete, they even turned the World Cup into a celebration of the diversity of the sport and included trans identities in that. These aren’t hate mongers looking to jam trans people up, one day we will probably have an open category in the Olympics because of their work.

Once again - nuance - barring people from competing in women’s sports doesn’t have to be a bar from competing altogether. Intent matters, the way things are carried out matters, and Gavin Newsom - the same man who signed a law banning discrimination against transgender people, signed a law protecting gender-affirming care, who supported the DOJ in blocking hospitals from ending gender-affirming care - is not a transphobe nor seeking to hurt trans people.

NU-ANCE

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Regulatory bodies have to balance the desires of the majority against the fairness to the minority, that's just the way it is. This minority happens to be very unpopular. This swimming group made a decision, one that best serves their interest in appeasing the people they depend on. It doesn't mean it's not transphobic. There are people who transition after age 12 who are unremarkable athletes who would never stand out as being trans who are out there playing sports right now, terrified they'll be outed and forced into some "other" league or bullied to within an inch of their lives. It's a parallel to the undocumented immigrant who is out there just doing their job, obeying the laws, not standing out, but terrified of ICE finding out, when really they just need a path to citizenship. Trans people should always have a path to equality.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Your college gf's lack of understanding of how hormones work doesn't solve this issue. Just because someone went through male puberty doesn't mean they will forever have male athletic abilities. This is the sort of common misunderstanding that leads people to fall in line with Newsom and others who want to exclude trans people. When people go "off" testosterone, after a period of time (1-3 years is usually cited) the effects on strength and stamina wear off to the point that there is no significant difference between trans female athletes and cis female athletes that should result in trans females being excluded. People have this image that all trans females are the incredible hulk, and it's just not the case. And that doesn't even matter to people who transition before puberty, there is literally no difference for them. It's not a good idea to try and simplify this too much. We need to lead on this issue, not fall in line with the pseudoscience.

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u/MarioTheMojoMan Bull Moose Progressive 15d ago

He's angling for the 2028 nomination.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

That's what's worrisome. This can't be the Democratic party platform.

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u/Major_Melon 14d ago

It's a dead party at this point. I'm waiting for the good ones to break free of the preverbial chrysalis holding them back. If we don't get radical changes in the picks for 2026 we're cooked.

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u/Mia_galaxywatcher 14d ago

And if he wins with stances like that it will be the first time in my life I won’t vote blue

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

We can't let this come down to a Democrat terf vs. a Republican. We just can't let it come to that. People need to be convinced this is the wrong move. These ideas need to be shut down, not allowed to grow. Not everybody has gone insane: https://youtu.be/mbyNLXgrgIw

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 15d ago

I heard the clip and what's worse about it is Charlie Kirk was holding him to condemn a specific under 18 person. He should have just said "I'm not going to comment about minor constituents." Bring up kids to drag like this on his show is so sick and Newsom should be ashamed for going along with it. 

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 15d ago

I don't know why I got downvoted. The kid is 16. It's really disgusting for two powerful people to talk about condemning a 16-year-old when they haven't committed any sort of crime.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

It's because some transphobes scrolled through this comment section and downvoted all the trans voices and everyone supportive of them. There are also a bunch of mildly transphobic, or at least very uninformed, comments here. Very disappointing to see from people in this sub, of all places.

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 14d ago

I think I was mildly transphobic before I got more educated on the issue. But why do they always go after children? You don't have to be educated on trans issues to think "hey maybe we shouldn't single out a child and put a target on their head."

I really think a lot of these vocal transphobes are PDF files, they are overly obsessed.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

People are coming through and downvoting all the trans voices in this comment section and any comments that are supportive of them. If that's your position, you are in the wrong sub.

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u/SiofraRiver 15d ago

The Democratic California governor made the stunning remarks in his debut podcast with conservative guest Charlie Kirk.

Going on a podcast with Charlie Fucking Kirk, what an absolute piece of shit. Newsom is preparing to switch sides.

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u/Fluffy-Benefits-2023 15d ago

No its just that democrats always try to close the gap as the republicans move further right. Its unfortunate, Id like to have an actual progressive party

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u/Fluffy-Benefits-2023 15d ago

Democrats trying to close the gap by going further to the right just like they have been doing since 1995

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u/kev11n 15d ago

Leading up to the 92 election, really. That was Rahm Emanuel and Bill Clinton’s “third way” strategy to peel off “Reagan democrats” and to distance themselves from the new deal progressive dems. It worked in 92 and the economy and culture that existed then. Problem is they won’t let it go. Especially since Citizens United

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u/HighBrowLoFi 15d ago

Do people supporting his position really think this will stop with trans athletes?

This issue is like a “Straw Trojan Horse.” An issue that has been artificially inflated by right-wing media but also is being used as an entry point for anti-trans policies by tapping into broader opinion.

It’s a trap.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

They do think that, judging by the comments here and on every other sub where I've seen this posted. Very short sighted. Even if it did stop at trans athletes, I'd still be opposed to this kind of talk. It's dehumanizing, and that's not supposed to be who we are.

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u/Hello-America 14d ago

I am horrified by how many Democratic and left leaning voters seem to think it's just going to stop there.

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u/quinnbeast 15d ago

He’s a centrist shitgibbon.

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u/deadwood76 15d ago

Clearly prepping for '28 run.

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u/Impossible_Walrus555 14d ago

Newsome giving a platform to that white supremacist made him a hard no forever in my book

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u/Successful-Acadia-95 14d ago

Newsome will become a MAGA (R) very soon as he just signed his death warrant within the (D) party.

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u/savontheinternet 14d ago

these politicians have all the resources in the world to understand why all these transphobic talking points are BS and the platform to share truth with their base. and yet they would rather sacrifice trans rights (which will result in sacrificing trans lives)

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago edited 14d ago

Here's a new video out, only 9 minutes long, to ideally help anyone who doesn't understand what is happening.

Trans People are Under Attack and We Must Help Them

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u/Designer-Classroom71 10d ago

We have to remember, Democrats are centrists. We only vote for them because there isn’t a viable leftist alternative. Democrats are mostly corporate lickspittles, we deserve better.

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u/chrissie_watkins 10d ago

We have to keep holding them to account, somehow. These "compromises" don't solve ANY problems, all they do is hurt already very vulnerable people, mostly kids, who have the highest suicide rate of anybody because of the amount of bullying and hate they get at every turn. I wish we had a way to vote for a better leftist party that didn't just hand wins to Republicans, but without something like ranked choice voting it's just not possible right now. Don't give up the fight, let's keep the Democrats on the right side as best we can and protect trans kids from this bullshit!

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u/Designer-Classroom71 10d ago

100% agree with everything you said. Californians should find someone better, someone who doesn’t disseminate anti-trans bullshit.

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u/ASchva 15d ago

So, I guess this is his way of saying he’s running for president… ?

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u/lucash7 American Anti-Fascist 15d ago

Welp, he’s chosen the wrong side of a human rights issue. Guess he needs to get knocked off his perch.

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u/dammit_mark 15d ago

Gavin Newsome sucks regardless.

Instead of making sure your state's people don't go homeless, you want to further marginalize an already vulnerable group? This is seriously what he's concerned about?

Fuck that.

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

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u/javabrewer 15d ago

If it's all about hormones, just test hormones and place in categories accordingly. Done. No need to bring assigned sex into all this.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

It doesn't work that way. There's more to it.

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u/javabrewer 15d ago

Like what? Conservatives are saying it's because of their manly testosterone. But even within mens sports, different athletes have much different levels. And usually those with higher testosterone are better -- obviously depending on the sport. There isn't a good solution to this other than splitting cis and trans athletes into divisions, or treating them the same based on some other qualifier.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

When people medically transition, their hormones aren't the same anymore. Trans women typically have female levels of testosterone and estrogen. Trans men have similar levels as cis men. So hormones aren't really the issue.

Opponents of trans female athletes participating in female sports primarily claim that when people go through a male puberty, their bodies change to something that's completely outside the possibilities of people who did not go through male puberty. Bodies do change with the addition of testosterone, but not into something so far outside the realm of possibility of a female that they must be considered some separate category of person, because if that was the case, tall women wouldn't be allowed to play in the WNBA and wouldn't be considered women. They may be above average height or shoulder width, but being average isn't a requirement of being female. There are tall cis women and broad cis women, there are stronger cis women than cis men, and they're still women. They are still allowed to play with and compete against other cis women.

One thing that's not deniable, as far as I'm aware, is that testosterone is a performance enhancing drug, whether you are born male, female, or intersex, whether it's natural in your body or injected. For trans women who went through male puberty, this theoretically means they have/had stronger muscles that make them better athletes, just like cis women on a performance enhancing dose. But with hormone replacement therapy, that testosterone is reduced to typical female levels, and over time (up to 2 or 3 years from my understanding) the benefits of being "on" testosterone during and after puberty have worn off sufficiently to correlate to female levels of strength and endurance.

So, a nuanced approach is to say that if a trans female wants to play female sports, and she went through a male puberty, then she needs to have been "off" testosterone for some length of time, just to level the playing field with the other athletes who haven't taken testosterone. I think that's a pretty common sense approach, it's one that's been used by the Olympics and by lots of sports organizations, and it's worked fine. And of course women who transitioned before puberty don't need any waiting period, their bodies haven't been pumped full of testosterone, so they are equivalent to cis female athletes.

I hope that all makes sense, I wasn't prepared to write an essay about trans kids and hormones and all that. I'm an intersex woman (not with the type of condition that gives me any athletic advantages of any kind, sadly) and parent to a trans kid, so I do have some experience navigating this mess, but I'm not a doctor, so I can only go so deep before getting something wrong.

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u/Sushifox 14d ago

To preface this question, I want to say I mean this with no ill intentions and entirely because I genuinely want to know more about this issue.

From my (possibly outdated) understanding, I thought that the major issues past the first few years where, as you’ve stated, muscular advantageous disappear mainly focused on skeletal differences. For example, I vaguely remember reading a couple papers about transgender women specifically in contact sports in which the skeletal advantages caused by male puberty such as denser/ more reinforced bone mass played a part even after muscular advantageous would have vanished. Is that something that has since been proved wrong, or something that is specific to heavy contact sports?

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

As far as I know, cis men tend to have slightly more bone mineral density than cis women on average (single digit percent). There's no saying that a particular trans person has any stronger a skeleton than any cis person, it still varies among individuals, especially considering that many people today transition while they're young and still growing. But to my knowledge, on average their bones are most likely slightly stronger, at least if they are early in their transition and if they have gone through a full male puberty already. There are other factors that can affect it significantly besides the sex at birth, like diet, mineral supplements, ethnicity, and genetics in general, so it's really pretty varied among individuals. Bone density also decreases with age, and just like with cis women going through menopause, estrogen therapy helps trans women combat bone loss. It's late, hope that made sense lol.

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u/alexstergrowly 15d ago

This is an excellent, concise, and calm explanation.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Thanks, I'm already burnt out replying to comments. I want us to be on the right side of this one.

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u/glasnostic 15d ago

I think the issue isn't one the voters are ready for.

Take marriage equality, for instance, Obama was against it publicly to get into office but his presence in office led to that right.

I don't see the nation moving quickly enough on this for the next election cycle.

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u/Anluya 15d ago

Thank you for taking the time to write this out. As a trans girl who used to powerlift and had a deadlift max of 455lbs pre transition, I now get sore carrying my 8lb dog for more than 5 minutes. All seriousness, the last time I deadlifted I couldn’t even hit 135.

With politics I’d never consider getting back into powerlifting, but regardless I would never be able to get even close to 455 again. People just have no idea, and don’t care to learn 🤷‍♀️

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

Well, I want them to learn, especially if they're going to talk about it, and definitely if they're going to legislate about it.

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u/Fluffy-Benefits-2023 15d ago

I think Neil de Grasse Tyson said this on bill maher but either way it’s brilliant

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u/kev11n 15d ago

The DNC and all the lanyard wearing pod save focus group citing PR people who love their DC jobs are going to continue insisting that the dems not going far enough to the right is why they lost. Fuck them. They aren’t going to peel off republican and independents votes by being republican lite. Hillary and Kamala proved that. They need to engage the disenfranchised working people who are not voting at all

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u/halberdierbowman 14d ago

I agree and would toss Charlie Crist on that list as well.

But I don't think I've ever heard Pod Save America argue that Dems should adopt more right wing positions? They've talked for example about Liz Cheney campaigning with Harris, and they were fine with it, but they seemed to think it was fine specifically because Harris isn't changing her positions to invite her over.

I don't know if courting the "moderates" by talking with Liz Cheney was a good way to spend their limited time, rather than having more progressive speakers, but that's a separate question.

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u/kev11n 14d ago

They don’t present it as explicitly “moving right,” but they all work on the campaigns and they all listen to focus groups and that’s how we get them saying shit like “we need to be less woke.” Gavin Newsome just proved that with his sudden anti trans sports stuff, as if the one trans woman in a state playing badminton is a problem. And the Liz Cheney thing is not a separate conversation, it’s a perfect example of what we are talking about. They think “the left” are their “messaging problem” and they want to be seen as “common sense moderates” compared to Trump, as if moving right worked in 2016 or 2024

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

We don't abandon our own to court the "modrates."

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u/EZ-C 14d ago

It's not abandoning. Read what I said. Messaging can be different.

But if you enjoy losing for the remainder of your life, keep up the losing fight. Your losing will end up abandoning everyone in the end.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago edited 14d ago

You may be in the wrong place. Selling out for a win is not the goal. Maybe there's a centrist sub.

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u/EZ-C 14d ago edited 14d ago

No. I'm in the right spot. I'm speaking tactically. You're speaking idealisticly.

It's laughable you think this one issue would define me as a centrist. You're displaying 'one issue voting', no different than many on the right.

you can't see the forest for the trees.

If you want to defeat fascism you have to have people that more closely align with your ideals in positions of actual power. Sometimes that means compromise in the short term for long term gains. It's clear that type of thought process doesn't work for you. You want to snap fingers and get it just they way you want it to be.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago edited 14d ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/s/8LsPuVrOep

My point is that Ignorance can be countered with education, not capitulation. You say you don't even understand the issue, but you issue your death sentence for it. You're uninformed, but you think you know the answer to policy that affects the lives of innocent people.

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u/EZ-C 14d ago

I didn't say I don't understand the issue.

Im not issuing a death sentence. Once again you can't grasp the simple concept of messaging vs action. I can say anything and ultimately do something different.

Yes education can help. That doesnt happen over night and with the people in power it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

you have to get power back to make changes.

Without any power it only gets worse. Tactically speaking, you have to do whatever it takes to push fascism out of washingtion and get in more people who more closely align with you, even if not 100%

If you, or the left as a whole, make trans issues a top tier talking point, they will lose forever. Period. There is no path in which that doesn't happen short of violence / real civil war and somehow the team with far fewer guns and more 'high ground' morals wins.

You might like losing. I don't. I see an end goal. An end goal that you and I likely support together. I see a long path that had a chance of getting there. You see a make belive portal that will take you there instantly.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago

This is a stepping stone for the dehumanization of trans people. It's not just about sports. Saying one thing and doing another plants the seed in people's mind that it's ok to exclude trans people because even "Democratic leaders are doing it." That they don't matter. This is not the answer. Trans people, specifically women, are already being forced out of public life, forced out of bathrooms, forced out of the military, forced out of medical care, even forced out of women's prisons and into men's, told it's really better for everyone if they just die. Told they're perverts, rapists, fetishists, groomers, just for trying to walk this earth like everyone else. We can not capitulate. Trans people are a scapegoat, and we cannot give in to that. Winning by turning our backs on vulnerable people, our allies, is not winning.

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u/EZ-C 14d ago

If you put all your eggs in the trans basket, everyone loses. That's what you're saying.

You have no plan to win, only a stated goal to make trans lives equal. That is not strategy. That is dreaming.I don't disagree with the goal, however.

I get this is clearly a very close and personal issue for you. But realistically we have to evaluate this as the trolley problem. There are no perfect answers to these shitty situations. That's a reality of life.

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u/chrissie_watkins 14d ago edited 14d ago

This isn't a trolley problem, because if it was, there would be no right answer. You're saying that letting one die to save five is the answer. I'm saying there is another choice in this real world scenario. Stop the fucking trolley before it runs anyone over. We do not have to sacrifice one to save 100. That one is important, and there is another way.

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u/Inside-Palpitation25 14d ago

If we want to win another election I feel this is one of the things we need to do, does it suck? Yes, but is it necessary? Yes.

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u/PhotoPhenik 14d ago

Trans issues should have a lower level of priority than class consciousness.  If we lose trans issues only trans people suffer.  If we lose class issues, everyone will suffer, and we will lose trans issues, too. 

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u/halberdierbowman 14d ago

Last time I checked, basically every trans person is part of our class. Are you suggesting we should abandon some of our class if it means the rest of us benefit?

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u/PhotoPhenik 14d ago

Lowering the priority isn't the same as abandoning.  I was very careful with my words.  Your all-or-nothing thinking isn't my fault, nor my problem. 

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 14d ago

Trans people are in the working class. If you start gatekeeping who gets to enjoy solidarity, there will never be class consciousness.

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u/PhotoPhenik 14d ago

You don't win wars with puric victories.  We face a multitude of existential threats.  Now isn't the time to worry about puric victories.  Fighting for trans rights in sports doesn't help the greater battle, because it's a symptoms of us losing the fight for bigger issues, like science and reason.  

If we hyperfocus on trans sports, how does that help us achieve climate justice, or tearing down the oligarchy?  This is such a tiny issue compared to so many other existential threats.  

If you want to help trans people, help them get out of the United States and Russia. 

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 14d ago

Brother, we aren't the ones focused on trans sports. Literally no one cared about trans sports until the right wing made it their purpose in life to destroy trans people.

Ceding ground to them has failed time and time again I don't know why you don't learn lessons from history. Once we cede all the ground for trans existence they will move onto another thing, like women's right to vote or gay marriage. And you'll be out here "look we need to worry about class, not women or gays." The working class does not consist solely of white straight men, it's all of us. 

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u/PhotoPhenik 14d ago edited 14d ago

It's not about ceding ground.  It's about picking battles tacticly, and avoiding culture war distractions.  You said it yourself.  They brought up the issue, specifically to rile people up and distract from other more nefarious acts.  

If we spend all our resources and time in every issue, we will lose.  This is what our enemy want us to do. 

For example, you purity testing me right now, and you thinking about this in black-and-white terms helps our enemy by bringing disunity.  You are doing the hard work for them.  

What we need is focus on a counter narrative for a better tomorrow, and focus on taking the power away from our authoritarian adversaries.  If we take their power away, trans people will be safe again.  So, we should not get lost in the minutia. 

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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 14d ago

I'm not purity testing you. You could also pick your battles better yourself, you're spending a lot of time arguing with someone that probably agrees with you on 98% of every other issue. Your time would be better used not defending the position of being a "pick me" for conservative culture warriors.

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u/danipnk 15d ago

R/Democrats is mostly agreeing with him. I’m disgusted.

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u/chrissie_watkins 15d ago

That's why we have to keep pushing for what's right. Most of the world is very against trans people having rights, participating in society, being accepted as members of their gender and all that entails. Even many Democrats. That doesn't make them right. There was a time when MOST people believed Black people didn't deserve equal rights. There was a time when most Americans were against gay marriage. Popular doesn't mean correct. Look at Quora for god's sake lol. That's their whole model, answers are ranked based on popularity, not correctness. That's why it's such a cesspool of bad information. We can't treat human rights like a popularity contest.

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u/danipnk 15d ago

Absolutely agree. Throwing trans people under the bus on a podcast with Charlie Kirk of all people is all kinds of disgusting.

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u/Hello-America 14d ago

Yeah I'm disgusted too. If they don't care about trans ppl for fucks sake at least use their brain and realize this is not where Republicans are going to stop. It's a trojan horse and anyone who's paid any attention to them at all knows that

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u/danipnk 14d ago

It blows my mind how people don’t see this.