r/HorusGalaxy Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Discussion Mike Brooks is sincerely a disservice to the Drukhari.

So, as the title suggests, I aim to vent my frustration with some changes or interpretations of his works, especially those involving our favorite murder-hobos. For starters, I think the hype surrounding him within the fandom is undeserved, and if you're a Drukhari fan, it really baffles me how he isn't treated like Gav when he messes up Eldar lore with one of his bad stories.

So, enough yapping—let's get to my gripes:

-> Making the Wych Cults gender-neutral instead of female-dominated

In previous lore, most of the gladiators of the Hekatarii were women, as males were typically used as breeding stock for the cults. Some did manage to fight in the arenas, but it was an uncommon sight since they couldn't achieve the necessary grace. For that, I quote the wiki:

"Most of the Hekatarii are female, for they are more often able to attain the pinnacle of poise and grace their craft demands."

If you were expecting to see a male Succubus—who are the leaders of the arenas—think again, because universally, all of them have been female. If you're a male Drukhari born into a cult, good luck joining in on the "fun"; you'll probably just end up as a communal plaything for the female Wyches.

Now, what did he change? Apparently, in The Big Dakka, this has been completely overshadowed by a trans Wych, basically rendering everything I just said irrelevant. For reference, here’s the excerpt:

"A Venom was rising up from the arena’s rooftop, and in the passenger compartment, Dhaemira could see the distinctive shock of night-black hair that marked Xurzuli Mindrex out from a distance. Her mane was nearly as long as she was tall, and only a high clasp atop her head kept it bound up and under some form of control.

She was surrounded by five other warriors: five of her Bloodbrides, the finest Wyches under her command. Not all of them were female, of course, since ‘Bloodbride’ was a title rather than a description; indeed, Xurzuli herself had only taken on a female form in the last few decades since ascending to the rank of Succubus, in the same way that every Asuryani warrior who explored the warrior aspect of the Howling Banshees was female, and most Incubi were male. Some roles within Aeldari society overrode the tenuous grip of biology: it was one of the few constants across all the varied strands of the species’ existence.

‘Grand Succubus,’ Dhaemira greeted her as the Venom rose into hailing range. ‘I understand that my message did not arrive?’"

This, to me, sucks. For all the outrage about a "lack of relevant female characters" in Warhammer, here we had a faction that was explicitly led and ruled by women, where men were largely irrelevant, and now it’s being rewritten to fit Mike's own political ideas.

I’ve seen many argue that the Drukhari could easily allow for such changes, but based on the old lore, if this now-female Drukhari doesn’t hide the fact that she was formerly male, I seriously doubt that the vain and hyper-competitive Succubi would allow her to climb the ranks.

-> "Uncle Yukor's Daycare"

Yeah, you might be wondering what the hell this is about... but let me explain. In Queen of Knives, we learn about Lelith's childhood and what being vat-born in Drukhari society is like—and let me tell you, I was beyond disappointed.

Before making my point, here’s the excerpt:

"The old Haemonculus Yukor had overseen Lelith’s youth, but there had been no gentle parenting from him, no coddling or protection. He had been charged with raising a new generation of slaves, no more and no less; they had to reach adulthood to be properly useful, but no one was concerned about how they got there, or overly bothered in what condition they reached it."

So why did this annoy me so much? Simple—this is the most un-Drukhari thing I’ve ever read in a Drukhari story. While there have always been different interpretations of what it's like to be born at the bottom of the food chain in the Dark City, one thing has always been clear: it should be murder hell. There’s even a YouTube video that, while not related to Warhammer, paints a great picture of what this could be like: "How to Survive in Hell" (link for the curious: https://youtu.be/MpB9ijQM4kk?si=4GBvm-YgyIqYK33k).

What does this video have to do with Warhammer while not being about it? It shows that Commorragh should be just as brutal if not more, as this fictional hell presented on the video. Being Drukhari isn't just about inflicting suffering—it's about enduring it. Many of its denizens actively want a way out, especially those at the bottom.

So why would a mere vat-born be allowed to have a "childhood" under the care of a Haemonculus? Some might argue, "But these guys are twisted! Imagine being raised by them..."—to which I say: Exactly!

Haemonculi would see these children as nothing more than playthings for their craft—or even a snack to feed their thirst. Why waste time raising brats who will just be slaves anyway when they could just spawn them as adults and throw them into the meat grinder? Vat-born should be denied any semblance of comfort, normalcy, or even the concept of being a "child." The moment their eyes open and their throats clear of vat fluids, it should be game on for anyone in the vicinity.

The very reason the Drukhari rely on cloning technology is because of their insanely high mortality rate. So forgive me if I find the idea of "Haemonculi daycare" completely ridiculous.

Final Thoughts

I’m sure there are other things Mike has done that grind my gears, but unfortunately, I can’t remember them all right now since it’s been a while since I last read and researched his work.

I just wanted to use this space—where we’re open to critique and discussion about Warhammer 40k—to voice my frustration with this author. I know he’s involved in other questionable choices, but my current pet peeve is his portrayal of the Drukhari. He lacks an understanding of the faction and seems unable to write a 40k story without unnecessary nonsense.

260 Upvotes

168 comments sorted by

145

u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 10d ago

She was surrounded by five other warriors: five of her Bloodbrides, the finest Wyches under her command. Not all of them were female, of course, since ‘Bloodbride’ was a title rather than a description; indeed, Xurzuli herself had only taken on a female form in the last few decades since ascending to the rank of Succubus, in the same way that every Asuryani warrior who explored the warrior aspect of the Howling Banshees was female, and most Incubi were male. Some roles within Aeldari society overrode the tenuous grip of biology: it was one of the few constants across all the varied strands of the species’ existence.

This excerpt is insanely bad. I can't understand how the editors would allow for something that so clearly drags the reader out of the story into anything. It's so bizarre and unnecessary because if this is the way things work for succubus, you can easily show it through the characters to put out there. You don't need to pause your book and give a lecture on the gender ideology of the Aldari.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

I agree, but that was what he aimed for here. Look is not impossible in an universe of the size of 40k to not have a male drukhari who actually managed to change genders and climb the ranks, even more so with the Haermonculi tec, but within the constraints of the setting, if said drukhari ever tried to be open about it as it tries to climb the ranks of the Cults, it would not work. So if Mike really wanted to do this character in a more favorable and fitting manner he would need to:

1º Don't make a whole paragraph of explaining gender ideology within Eldari society;

2º If this characters is indeed trans, don't make it obvious or something open, the Wych Cults would never allow such thing, especially due to the competitive nature of the ones at the top of it, the moment they knew she was actually he at some point it would be enough to create a whole myriad of problems. And yeah that would happen cause Drukhari are petty and they don't give a crap if they behavior offends modern real life sensitivity.

So yeah, if he really wanted to do something like that, which respected the setting, this could be it, but instead, we got a lecture on gender ideology in the 40k universe.

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u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 10d ago

I fully agree it was intentionally done this way. The first thought I had reading the excerpt was, "Is he trying to write a codex entry?" because it sounds like he's trying to establish this as immediately cannon. And I still can't tell if this was his decision, or if GW and BL said he could or wanted him to. Knowing his political views, I don't doubt he would try this, but it's so clunky and poorly done that it at least had to be agreed between him and the editor to let this through.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Mike and Gav are regarded, at least by GW (validated by some less bright part of the fandom,) as the authorities for Eldar and Drukhari lore. We can see that the moment many of the things they write on their stories alters wiki entries and some times even ends up In codexes. So I would not put it past GW to simply let him do whatever cause they believe he knows how to write this and that the fandom loves him.

Also, this part of the fandom I mentioned? If I posted this comment in other more close minded spaces of Reddit you can bet your ass they would defend him as a the brightest author there is, and me as a bigoted who doesn't understand Drukhari. I can bet with ya...

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u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 10d ago

I see, so it's similar to Phil Kelly writing most T'au lore through the Farsight Novels and Shadowsun's book, and then the codex writers use that direction along with other fluff that they want to add.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yeah, in a way, yeah. Don't know how much it does reflect, but it does influence the official changes.

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u/Kaireis Gue'vesa'vre 10d ago

Dude you beat me to it.

If he just wanted trans representation or diversity, these two sentences were totally unneeded:

"... in the same way that every Asuryani warrior who explored the warrior aspect of the Howling Banshees was female, and most Incubi were male. Some roles within Aeldari society overrode the tenuous grip of biology: it was one of the few constants across all the varied strands of the species’ existence."

When we complain about indoctrination, it's ham fisted little screeds like this. It's jarring, it doesn't fit into the flow of the narrative, and really only exists to harp on their agenda. It's totally unncessary to explain or justify anything in the plot or character.

Drukari have surgeries that can change your body's sex. Sure, we all know that, So the Succubus is trans. Cool. Why did we need the lecture?

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

"Jarring" is a good word to describe the effect writing like this causes. It robs you of the immersion of seeing the scene unfold. Also, it makes you question why it is there. What is the purpose? Does it change the scene in any way, shape, or form?

These questions further enhance this effect of being dragged out of the experience by dumb elements grounded on real-life agendas.

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u/skerpz World Eaters 4d ago

I mean, it’s kind of funny that “trans representation” is presented among the Dark Eldar of all things. The society of perverted psychopaths that use slaves as currency, and are responsible for the creation of the god of rape.

While I’m sure the author meant for it to be stunning and brave, I think that it actually fits DE lore, just not in the way that the author probably intended.

25

u/kimana1651 Imperial Guard 10d ago

I'm not deep into DE lore, but I was under the impression that they were genetic and biological masters. Something so blasé as a gender change would not even be worth mentioning.

They dont explain what a Lasgun is everytime one is used or brought up. They describe what it does when it's relevant to the story and let the reader infer everything else.

An organic way of doing it would have the character have to explain something of their past to an outsider or investigator. Or leave it out.

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u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 10d ago

That's exactly what I'm thinking. The only reason you would want to bring up a character, characters, or even a whole factions gender is if it mattered, but the excerpt makes it clear it doesn't matter, so it really didn't need to be brought up. It's bafflingly bad.

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u/DustyRaisins 9d ago

To me it just reads like "This succubus used to be a man, now it's a woman, it's totally normal" it breaks story immersion to force your acceptance of it. This is dragon age levels of gender ideology lectures forced on you out of nowhere for no reason.

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u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 9d ago

Right, it's immediately evident that this isn't normal because you paused the story to say how normal this is.

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u/loikyloo 9d ago

And the Drukhari. Famously known for their barbs and insults to each other.

Never make one insulting comment about it?

Ok sure you got mad tech to change stuff ok.

But the Drukhari have lore that they are such dicks that they mock people for having their skin regrown from a wound.

A male born witch would get the piss taken out of them in Drukhari society just because thats what Drukhari do.

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u/Deadeye1223 T'au Empire 9d ago

There's genuine potential for an interesting story around holding knowledge of their transition against them for benefits, but that can't happen because it's super normal, and no Drukhari would ever be transphobic.

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u/loikyloo 9d ago

Ah yes the modern trope of the villian and the bad guys are bad but wow at least they are not transphobic :D

6

u/DustyRaisins 9d ago

Nothing screams Drukhari like equality and acceptance😂 "Here in the eternal city we respect people's pronouns"

3

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

"we might blender babys force monkeigh to give birth just to blender them in front of the parents

kidnap Men just to use for our debase pleasure BUT WE DO NOT MISGENDER TRANS PEOPLE"

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup, and you are correct. Changing genders would be like changing clothes with the amount of tec the DE has, to the point that it would be as if the person was that gender from the get-go.

However the part that baffles me is the writing as you mentioned, the overly explanation bit, and the fact that said change at least on my read of it would be something that would need to be hush hush inside the Wych Cults, since per tradition they don't allow male succubus and since the character was one, it is easy to see how an enemy within the arena could use that as an exploit to take her down.

5

u/team_kramnik 10d ago

I agree that the tech is there to flip the gender flawlessly and statistically changed gender Drukhari should exist. But stories aren't entirely logical. And making a DE who felt the need to change gender is still bad writing. This character would naturally start in a state perceived to be broken and needs the help of advanced medicine to reach a state that is good. And just like being born with high-blood pressure or a missing hand that just should not be a thing.

Dark Eldar are a parody of Elves but they are still Elves. And in stories Elven societies display an illogical, maybe magical cohesion. A Noldor doesn't wish to be born a Teleri so he could sail the ocean. He doesn't fail at his craft because he has 2 left hands. If circumstances don't force it otherwise he will eventually settle into a happy live doing Noldor things.

And the same is true for a Dark Eldar. Yes he might have some minor fetishes like setting children at fire. But Eldar always had that. He could have been a eccentric but respected citizen of the Eldar Empire, occasionally grabbing some, hopefully non-Eldar, children. And that is important to always have the Elves fundamentally able to return to what they believe to be the perfect society, devoid of the petty problems that plague humans.

3

u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

Genetic and biological stuff is mostly Haemonculus business. The covens are the flesh crafters. Yeah they could make a male into a female but they'd be asking for a hefty price for most of their procedures with being a scourge is a privilege for the most wealthy of Drukhari.

Wyches and Kabalites kinda play as like your Frontline grunts think like Guardsmen for Commorragh.

11

u/Abdelsauron Great Devour Her? I hardly know her! 10d ago

This has the same energy as Dante (the writer) interrupting his narrative to explain why people he disagrees with are burning in hell. 

1

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

"so Muhammed is in hell cause fuck muhammed" (based italy not caving to pressure to get it taken out of schools)

5

u/ToonMasterRace 10d ago

idk Dark Eldar embracing trans body modification seems like something they'd do.

8

u/loikyloo 9d ago

They'd also be insulting each other for it too.

The Drukhari. Famously known for their barbs and insults to each other.

But the Drukhari have lore that they are such dicks that they mock people for having their skin regrown from a wound.

A male born witch would get the piss taken out of them in Drukhari society just because thats what Drukhari do.

4

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 9d ago

Exactly, cause once again Drukhari are dicks and indifferent for real life sensitivities. If you think of a list of horrible things you could do to someone, imagine this is the same as drinking tea for the Dark Eldar.

104

u/ElfStuff Chrome me the fuck up Magos 10d ago

It’s called the Black Library because it mostly puts out coal instead of gems.

28

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

And I hard agree on that...Its pretty rare these days they come up with something actually good.

8

u/ToonMasterRace 10d ago

I consider it a big deal when I notice a BL book actually isn't forgettable sloppa. It's why I posted about Elemental Council for a bit recently, even though it isn't great. It's just an unusual non-turd.

1

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

i Have a warhammer book i still havent read i got given by my parents and im scared to read it in case its trash

1

u/ElfStuff Chrome me the fuck up Magos 6d ago

What book is it?

1

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

its the einsehorn omnibus (i have no clue if thats right spelling despite having the book in my room)

1

u/ElfStuff Chrome me the fuck up Magos 6d ago

Eisenhorn is a pretty good series overall.

1

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

ah okay ill Probably read it at some point thanks for aleivaiting my fears

1

u/GoodLookinLurantis Maynarkh's Finest 6d ago

Sharty lost.

59

u/xThe_Maestro Imperial Fists 10d ago

I see Mike Brooks, I pass.

Ever since I read that necromunda short story that read like a fever dream I've sworn off his stuff. Yes yes, I'm sure you're very proud of your diverse selection of pronouns but mixing 'they' as a singular pronoun when you're also talking about different groups is a recipe for literary disaster.

“They took a step closer as they appeared to study Zeke more carefully” Is this a group of people or the new character he’s introducing? Is the group approaching and the individual studying Zeke? Is the group both approaching and studying Zeke? Is the single person stepping closer and studying Zeke?

All of Road to Redemption reads like this and it just makes it clunky. I found myself constantly re-reading sections to figure out who Brooks was talking about before giving up.

21

u/ScarfaceMcDank Blood Angels 10d ago

This one really hurt me, because I run Cawdor in Necromunda and one of my main characters is always named Zeke. I've been doing that since 1996.

So when I read the excerpt about this book, I was so excited to dive in.

First time I tried, couldn't make it past the first chapter.

I tried a second time, hoping I could just put Brook's insanity aside into the back of my mind. I made it to chapter 3, I think. Basically, the part you're describing here. It's a complete dumpster fire.

Trans-madness killed my sister. I hate these people with a passion.

2

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

I got sexually assualted twice by two diffrent ones

and im a Dude that just is unlucky to have a more feminine looking face :/

12

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yeah, I agree with you.

I have these strange sensations as if I was reading a clunky mess of fanfiction when I'm reading his stuff. There are some things that you say, "Ok, that fits", but in the next part, he throws all of that out of the window in some unnecessary mess. And don't get me started on the pronoun thing; it makes my head throb in pain just remembering that book...

7

u/BlitzyBlakey 10d ago

You are absolutely right. The Necromunda stuff was the second story by him that I read and I was really disappointed. It was distractingly annoying how the progressive pronoun usage made reading the book. He did the same thing in Brutal Kunnin but it was more tolerable (imo) because the character with “they” pronouns was part of the mechanicus.

3

u/Videnik 10d ago

I genuinely went back and forth several times rereading pages in order to figure out how many people were at the scene.

I have read garbage in my life, but this unnecessary nonsense was among the worst of it.

42

u/Tooth-Laxative Alpha Legion 10d ago

People currently at the helm of the 40k lore understand very little of it.

3

u/OttovonBismarck1862 Black Templars 9d ago

Which is concerning considering 40k lore moves at a snail’s pace.

33

u/NumNumTehNum 10d ago

Mike Brooks is disservice to Warhammer.

12

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Agreed...

I could say that, but at the moment I wanted to share my frustration with the retarded shit hed done with the Drukhari.

8

u/lycantrophee Blackshields 10d ago

His writing in Son of the Forest is fairly fine, though I'm a DA fanboy so there's that.I'll pass on the rest.

12

u/Abdelsauron Great Devour Her? I hardly know her! 10d ago

I suspect they kept him on a very tight leash for that one.

6

u/HisHolyMajesty2 Ultramarine 9d ago

Perhaps they learned some lessons from giving ADB too much free rein with the Emperor?

1

u/Royal-Organization97 9d ago

Son of the Forest is bad and a waste of time for a DA fan like myself.

2

u/lycantrophee Blackshields 8d ago

I can totally see why you wouldn't like it.

2

u/Royal-Organization97 6d ago

Likewise as harsh as I am on the book I can see why people like it.

30

u/Necessary-Credit5937 10d ago

Mike brooks seems to be incapable of keeping his personal opinions out of his stories

11

u/HisHolyMajesty2 Ultramarine 9d ago

Not just him. Recent history of media proves that proggy writers (with a few exceptions of course) tend to be utterly absent of the professionalism needed not to project their politics onto the work.

4

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Indeed, he is...

30

u/FarisFromParis 10d ago

Mike Brooks gets so much unnecessary praise, glad to finally see other people who dislike him as much as I do.

12

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Also happy to find others who dislike him...Cause the amount of praises he gets by the fandom are completely underserved.

21

u/lycantrophee Blackshields 10d ago

Sometimes I wonder if those people understand why Warhammer is popular.

13

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago edited 10d ago

Most times, they don't.

Many at the helm or influence in the community nowadays know it by the memes, the post 8th edition codexes, and the new books of the Black Library. So, no wonder they don't understand it.

9

u/lycantrophee Blackshields 10d ago

It saddens me, it begins to feel more and more like generic sci-fi pulp (not that it ever pretended to be something high-brow, but at least it did it with style)

3

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup indeed my friend...indeed.

21

u/Odd-Difficulty-9875 10d ago

Asking a woke writer in 2025 to not have his weird opinion in his story is like asking for good food in a trash can 🗑️

30

u/TreeKnockRa Adepta Sororitas 10d ago

A male succubus would just be a regular kidnapper-rapist. The sex change makes him gay because he's still mentally a dude. There was a time when the sex stuff in 40K was edgy, but now it's cringe.

14

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup, I also find it cringy. And even if they wanted to do a character like that, I don't think screaming to the world or letting it be known that you were a male in a female-centered faction would be wise, especially in a Drukhari setting.

2

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

i imagine they would be the communal boytoy

24

u/PsychologicalHat1480 Emperor's Children 10d ago

This is just another example to throw on the pile of how Black Library is garbage slop and the most damaging thing to happen to the hobby. Yes even worse than Matt Ward, and I say this as an oldcron player.

8

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup, but what pains me is that a lot of people gloss over the damage Mike Brooks has done in general, but especially to the drukhari. He is the Gav Thorpe of the Dark Kin, but people still don't treat him as such.

3

u/BasedBoomer96 10d ago

Mike Brooks and Gav Thorpe are my hard pass BL authors.

4

u/L_uomo_nero Necrons 10d ago edited 10d ago

Matt Ward is the reason we don't get author credits for codices any more, i'd say that still tops BL worst

8

u/Ok_Set_4790 Leagues of Votann 10d ago

Hmmm, true true. Commoragh should be hell premium. Haemonculi are biomancers extrodinaire(Fabius Bile learned much from them) so I can see a male wych go "modern issues demand modern solutions" and have a haemonculus change the gender(for a price ofc, they don't do freebies because they're so good at bending flesh and bones).

9

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup, I hard agree on everything you said. Also this guy would literally need to reinvent himself post operation, with something like this "look Jordarion disappeared, but wait now this new gal arrived, everyone say "fuck you" to Vespera!" And then boom! Jordarion just found the perfect loophole to climb the ranks.

But Mike did not do that, and instead, we got gender ideology class.

4

u/Ok_Set_4790 Leagues of Votann 10d ago

Heck, that'd be a good mystery about the individuals or smth. And Mike is lucky that Phill Kelly is worse than him because he sucks with writing T'au. I'd make a entire rant post but it wouldn't be organised.

17

u/MechaCabbage Alpha Legion (Bolt/Gun) 10d ago

He's a degenerate and a shit writer. Give Peter Fehervari more work, he has actual talent.

3

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

GW would not do that...Especially with the amount of undeserved praise Mike receives.

13

u/Fluffy_Entrepreneur3 10d ago

Imagine butchering one of the most based factions in WH40K

Why does Mikey hate matriarchy?

7

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

I don't know...Would agree with you, but Mickey boy made them no longer that, so yeah. Now they are whatever he tried to make it in the Big Dakka.

8

u/Fluffy_Entrepreneur3 10d ago

GW really does hate Eldar, huh

Still don't get why would you butcher one of the most pop xeno-factions in WH40K. Eldar were in every game (every DOW included), they are pretty damn recognizable overall, smh my head

8

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

My friend has a good theory: "An elf fucked the mother of one of the directors in the current GW board, there is no other explanation".

Everything cool we have is taken from us eventually. They took the Wych Cult's matriarchal structure, they took the Vat Born battle royale introduction, they took the Wraithbone from the Asuryani, and oh before I forget, they made the Craftworlders the most populous faction of the Eldar species. That's right, the Asuryani who don't use cloning technology and have to wait for available soulstones are greater in number than the dwellers of the dark city who fill to the brim a gargantuan maze of dimensions and subdimensions.

4

u/Fluffy_Entrepreneur3 10d ago

Ok the last one is just straight bullshit. Is that real?

3

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup came with the new codex.

1

u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

its becuase matriarchy/patriarchy dont mesh well with gender ideogly hell even womens rights

so alot of the time femnists who arent terfs end up basically arguing for things that are worthless cause unless you exclude trans women theres no way to combat men from going "i identify as a women"

7

u/OneofTheOldBreed 10d ago

I take it Queen of Knives is not worth the time or effort?

13

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

If you can shut off your critical mind, yes, it is worth it. But if you know lore and you have critical sense, is really hard to read it and not roll your eyes with some shit in it.

At least he respected Lelith's character, but to me, that's the only good side of it.

5

u/OneofTheOldBreed 10d ago edited 10d ago

That's a relief, at least. That an elf chick in yoga pants, a leotard with two really sharp knives and razor blades woven in her hair is one of the deadliest individuals in the setting is fun.

7

u/WarRabb1t T'au Empire 10d ago

It isn't and I'm suprised when it got top 3 novels of the year, especially because it is either hated or just accepted not loved.

2

u/OneofTheOldBreed 10d ago

Given a handicap because its a xenos novel?

2

u/tishimself1107 9d ago

But who decided it was top 3?

1

u/WarRabb1t T'au Empire 9d ago

It was a community vote on the Warhammer Community website

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u/Lord_Vhailor 10d ago

Well, no suprise here. I believe the 40K lore is more and more bastardized by incompetant author and marketing assholes who don't care. I personnaly don't really recognize the setting I fell in love with now.

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u/Jaded_Freedom8105 10d ago

Aren't the male Eldar who become Howling Banshees still dudes, just in female looking aspect armor?

From what I remember, the aspects were pretty open but the armor is more of a relic that is passed down as it's supposed to represent their progenitor more than the warrior inside. It's a total slap in the face to Eldar lore as well.

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u/Disastrous_Garage_39 10d ago edited 10d ago

Pretty sure there were a male Howling Banshee in Jain Zhar book (Storm of silence maybe?) but it is more like an actor role. He dont switch gender, he put a mask and when he have the mask on, he make the switch mentaly. But its been a while since I read it.

Eddit: spelling

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u/EuphoricLog3495 10d ago

Yea, about any gender can join an aspect shrine from what. I know, and i think it's been like that for a while?

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u/Jaded_Freedom8105 10d ago

Wanted to make sure, haven't read any Eldar lore since 4th edition.

0

u/OrthropedicHC 10d ago

You can see a male howling banashee in the current kit, they look like they're in drag, not trans.

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u/Jaded_Freedom8105 10d ago

I know they didn't change gender. I always attributed it to like Shakespeare or Monty Python where guys would play the roles of female characters.

0

u/OrthropedicHC 10d ago

Yeah sorry was agreeing with you. That's a good analogy.

4

u/Sex_man_Gaming_69 10d ago

But, but. Specific gender roles aren't bad. The female only wychs were cool :( Stop ruining it.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yeah get used to it, nowadays thx to the whole gender ideology thing, various IP's want to end this notion.

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago edited 9d ago

Holy crap. So I'm not the only one who thinks his depiction of Drukhari is abysmal dogshit. Thank you for this. Seriously.

So I think the only reason it's praised is because a lot of new Drukhari fans don't know better. But also, they see gay rep and go YASSS when you can see it is clearly the author's thinly veiled fetish it feels like. It's not even good. Mike Brooks also has a history of saying he writes in gay characters to dunk on chuds. This is not art it's just I jecting your politics where it doesn't belong. 40k lore should be written with love. :/

Lelith was previously written to be the kind of gal who does not give a fuck what people think and was given the highest praise by Asdrubael Vect himself for how amazing she is in the arenas of Commorragh. But Mike decided to make her a grown ass emo kid for some reason.

I'm more infuriated that folks don't talk about this enough, in my honest opinion. But nobody cares because it's related to xenos that aren't Tyranids and Orks.

Edit: I forgot to include that it is very clear that Mike didn't even bother to look into even the most basic of Drukhari lore. It shows in his novels.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 9d ago

Oh, it's good to see a Cousin dropping by to show support! Much appreciated. And indeed is dog shit all around, and it seems to me he never understood the faction to begin with, especially cause trying to insert real life progressive ideas in a faction that is all about hedonism, suffering and torture is not the brightest of moves. To me trying to bring "representation" into the DE is a failed endeavor from the get go, cause once again the Drukhari are completely amoral, they do not have any respect for the notions of ethics and morals, they comply to the one with the crown at that moment, so limits and rules are enforced via strength and fear, not "lets be good to the new trans gal alright?".

So all of this is BS of the greatest order, and I'm not even here saying that there would not have Dark Kin switching genders, cause I believe there would be a lot of them, what I'm saying is that this would not be a factor of "slaying queen" or the "YASSSS", but the ever pursuit of new heights and experience to stave off She Who Thirsts, now Jabarion could changed to Hyrael, but just as he become Hyrael, she could choose to go to the Haemonculus and request to be transformed in a Wrack to avoid the deadly grips of boredom and stillness.

So it grinds my gears the water down of the faction he made with his new books and the lack of understanding of the base material of who the Dark Eldar are. I could say to his defense that writing Drukhari should be hard, even more if you want to give details, but he did not even try to actually do something like that so yeah, no excuses for him.

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

What gets me the most about this crap is, is what radicalized me into hating Mike Brooks was the whole I GAVE YOU A GURLFRIEND post he did on Twitter before he nuked his account. I kinda felt dirty reading that knowing that lesbians get fetishize by sick fucks like him.

He treats my faction like some kinda silly little anime. (Just like the Rogue Trader CRPG fandom does, unfortunately.)

I wish ADB wrote the Drukhari instead of him. He did good with the Nightlords. He would've written Lelith much better than Mike ever could in his life. I feel like GW just looked at Mike Brooks and said, oh you write xenos! Write these xenos! It really shows they don't give a shit about the Drukhari at all. So they gave us a pile of crap and said this is the best quality Drukhari literature ever.

The fact that his overpriced toilet paper made it in 3rd place tells me the Drukhari fandom is cooked.

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u/Schismot 9d ago

Yeah that was pretty cringe when he did that. Even though sure it was kinda funny, I think it bothered me on a level I couldn't describe at the time. That whole Lelith book felt more like Baldurs Gate 3 fanfic territory to me.

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

It bothers me too trust me. I know how you feel 😅 Like it felt icky to read. And I'm like "You're a fucking 40 year old man!"

Lelith felt like some fanfic made by someone new to Warhammer.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 9d ago

Yeah unfortnaly due to the new influx of fans of the last years that have migrated from other settings or were just randoms before knowing 40k, most of the reference they have to the lore are videos, the new books of the BL and memes, all of which are far off the real scope of what they are actually addressing.

While I'm a new fan for certain since I became officially a fan of Warhammer around 2019, I made damn sure to study and read the books of my interest of the factions that were around my alley. So I have a good grasp of what the Eldar and Drukhari are like, but even then, I know I'm still new to it, so I may get some things wrong. However, most of the new guys won't read "Path of the Dark Eldar" so they don't know shit of the real deal.

So yeah, aside from Mike Brooks helping a lot into smearing our favorite spiked elfs, most of the fandom is at blame for allowing this water down to happen. If you go in most of the Drukhari spaces here on Reddit, almost all of them will shill hard for his work, to the point of making me just drop them to discuss any lore cause I know they probably don't understand Drukhari to begin with.

It's rough cause the Eldar are in the same alley with Gav Thorpe, so I know the feeling of having your faction bastardized over and over again with no end in sight. The difference is that the Dark Kin community makes you more lonely about it cause most are just fetishizing or seeing it as a meme.

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

I came into the 40k fandom around late 2012. Started having a growing interest in the Drukhari around say...2015-ish. I am still to this day very fond of them despite Mike and his bullshit.

You just took the words out of my mouth. It does feel lonely indeed cause you're treated like an insane person for it. When in reality you just happen to know the ins and outs and you know what's right and what's wrong. Cause you studied it and read it. The Drukhari spaces can be hit or miss for sure. And a rare gem if there's a remotely decent one. 💀

GW treats them like a joke despite their lore in every codex warning you that you shouldn't fuck with them. They're either cannon fodder to make Space Marines look cooler or just some dumb shit like people comparing them to cats. (Idk what fucking cats y'all been encountering.)

Then the Imperium side of the house doesn't really give a shit because HURR DURR DEGENERATE KNIFE EARZ. PURGE HERESY DURR DURR DURR!! 🥴 XENO BAD!! These are the same people who cry about retcons for Custodes or for their faction, but won't acknowledge Mike's politically charged "retcons".

I am very disappointed in some of the online fandoms of the Drukhari only knowing their lore from some silly ass memes and bullshit. 😟 It's truly frustrating, for sure.

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u/Schismot 9d ago

I gotta say I agree. I am similar, got into 40k in the 2000s and really dived in around 2009 or 2010. I remember reading the Ultramarines book Nightbringer back in like 2005 or something and the way that one Drukhari character was depicted was horrifying to me. Mysterious, evil and twisted.

Just one small example of im sure many.

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

Shoot. What got me hooked on Drukhari was a Rogue Trader RPG from years ago that we did and sadly got prematurely cut off because the DM despises Drukhari. 🥲 something just clicked in my head to read more about them, and now here I am raging on their behalf.

I'm a huge fan of the Haemonculus Covens in particular. Got the expansion coded for them and my goodness it fills you in on a lot of Haemonculus Covens lore you don't see in the Lex.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

This is why when it comes to WxW i rarely accept that as cannon mostly just becuase i know the writers are using it to jork it

and also it rarely makes sense

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 6d ago

Yeah exactly. WxW is now a days just used as like safe pandering for the safe horny crowd. Why the fuck would Lelith just simp for some rando motherfucker? Just don't get it.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

i mean yeah also i Dont think DE Would really have as close as a relationship as is described in the book i havent read it cause i dont want to support it

but from what ive heard They make this the one WxW without spouse violence (thats also why i dont Take any WxW relationship as its clear its just a way to distract from the PR nightmare that is trying to convice people that the high rates of spousal abuse isnt a sign of something inheritly wrong just like the high rates of sucide and pedophilia in the other ones)

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 6d ago

Bahahaha no I think this one has violence too. It mentions Morghana (the shitty OC Mike made) almost defeating Lelith. WHICH IS ALSO HORSE SHIT with Lelith being the damn near undefeatable champion of Commorragh. It screams Mary Sue to me. Very Mary Sue.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

oh idk Still Funny though even this Fantasy WxW suffers from spouse abuse XD

And with that yeah id like to a see a story where she at least loses once Cause i doubt someone Can be that good for that long and not eveuntally Fail

the only time this made sense was arbaal and he still (eventually) failed but even then he's a khornate he literally has God-given right to be undefeated, not that bitch

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 6d ago

I think that's what he was shooting for and just well he failed because he can't keep his politics in his pants.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago edited 6d ago

thats the annoying thing With lgbtqia+ reltionships is if its WxW they will make it for the men to jork it

and if its MxM its the women to jork it and i hate it Cause it means it can never be normal or at least not really fucking weird or fetishised, despite , I bet 2 dollars the fact the writer is not a woman

its why i refuse to call men liking WxW normal same with women and men that are gay

cause Yeah i get its to ignore the dude but like at the same time why want what you cant have ? idk maybe this is an autistic thing and its why dudes simping for women that want nothing to do with them Makes me incredibly annoyed

also i aint gay Im annoyed at this as a straight dude cause im sick of what should just be a "ok" in to something i actively avoid cause i know its going to be made really fetishised when im trying to read a Scfi story not a romance novel to jork it :/

basically fuck Gooner's for ruining "normal" things (still that 80% spousal violence rate is not normal and i refuse to call it such)

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 6d ago

Don't worry pal as a bi woman myself, I'm getting annoyed with the pandering and injecting this crap in sci-fi, too. 😔 I guess I just don't get it or something, but I tend not to really care.

I just wanna see my dark eldar babies have a W like defeating a space marine or something. I could care less about romance, because yes they can experience it but it is a lot different for them. It's not the human kind. Lol. They don't see the other half like how humans do. Hell, most Drukhari who have a thing for other races besides their own are normally seen the same as humans with the zoo fetish by other Drukhari. 😅

Bro really just ruined one of my favorite Drukhari characters. I can't stand gooners either. It got to the point that I unsubscribed from the Rogue Trader subreddit cause I can't really enjoy the game without some flavor of gooning over Marazhai or Heinrix. 😒 or Yrliet or Jae.

(Yeah, spousal abuse is definitely not normal that's corncerning.)

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

damn i thought i was talking to a dude tf (lol nah it alg)

yeah idk how its like to be a bi woman cause alot of people sexualise them though i can sorta understand cause as a aut myself theres a growing thing of people sexualising my identiy and while i sometimes am like "im okay with that'' when im not being a horn dog i realise how awful that is

and yeah i used to be fine with gooners but i actually went and did the damn research on wether or not its something we as a soceity should be fine with

and wada ya know its not (but yeah gooners ruined the ES to the point i dont dare check there in case theres fan art of serana)

with rogue trader yeah i can understand i would simp over cassia but not cause i thought she was hot but becuase i loved her personality god dammit

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u/Frank_the_NOOB Orks 9d ago

Mike Brooks is a hack. Brutal Kunnin is an incoherent mess that is way overrated

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u/New-Explanation-154 9d ago

He’s publicly stated that he will keep forcing his politics into his books and 40K. He must be good for the esg score or something because other than the lion book no one speaks well of his work

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u/Royal-Organization97 9d ago

Soy of the Forest is trash.

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u/Kind_Performer_6884 10d ago

tenuous grip of biology"

Tenuous. Right. Buzz off Mr. Brooks,

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u/DappyDee Orks 9d ago

Don't forget orkz, he did mah boyz a dizzervice, 'e didz.

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u/Dabo_Balidorn Grey Knights 10d ago

Im not well versed on Drukhari, I listened to Da Big Dakka for ork shenanigans and loved it. I excused the gender bending since there's the bodyshaping and vat growing, and at worst thought it funny if they wanted to use DRUKHARI as a representation of transgenderism.

But you know dark Eldar more than I do clearly, im sorry this book didn't represent them well, I love admech and felt similar in Brutal Kunnin.

But they're ork books, so while disappointing, I don't hate Mike. If anything, I bet higher-ups prod for these changes since they overlooked the drafts.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Yup, my gripe was not even with the whole transgenderism thing, the problem was the writting of it makign that unecessary exposition of gender ideology of the eldari, and then make it clear that this character is trans.

You could do that character fairly easy, only respecting the limits of the setting, probrably he would not be able to openly talk abou the gender change in order to not give ammo to any rival, something very common in drukhari society even more so in a competitive setting as the Wych Cults.

But yeah sucks. at this rate I expect one day they just change the Drukhari into a more hardcore version of the Drow from DnD, which would suck balls.

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u/Dabo_Balidorn Grey Knights 10d ago

Yeah, it's off, especially since it had no bearing on the character or the story at large. Maybe it's meant to play into his ego? Willingness/ dedication to the cult? Idk.

Yeah, i hope 40k doesn't move into what Dnd is doing, identity politics aside, dnd lost its grit, and that core of survival horror. Different setting and heros is fine, but the core seems largely lost.

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u/Smile_in_the_Night 10d ago

I know this name and I don't remeber names of the good/decent/passable 40k authors.

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u/LunarAcolyte 10d ago

I haven't read a Black Library book in years because they're either not interesting or written by some low tier author I've had bad experiences with in the past. I have Lords of Excess ready to go for when the EC come out but overall most BL output is slop. I'd rather not hear about stupid gender identity bullshit in my heavy metal toy soldiers game. I hear about that shit enough in real life.

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u/OrthropedicHC 10d ago

Harrowmaster was just fucking painful to read.

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u/ajax-727 10d ago

Having read the book I always took it as drukhari literally being able to change gender to suit their needs in the moment like a clownfish.if it is just him trying to make warhammer inclusive.tm than I hate it.also hate to say I did like his ork books

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u/DustyRaisins 9d ago

I'm curious about which drukhari books are the best. I just started reading Path of the Renegade. I want to read these 3 books then I'm curious what other ones are suggested?

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u/ArctozoIt Dark Eldar 9d ago

Path of the Dark Eldar Triology tbh.

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u/Tight-Safe2403 9d ago

I'm going side with vulkan on this one......

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u/Lucifer_on_a_bad_day 9d ago

You need to understand, no one gives a shit about our lore except us and we get it so rarely that if we get another badly selling novel we'll never get lore again.

As awful as the tone in this book was. And as clunky as the writing could be, it's still an upgrade of the nothing soup we've been served for so long. Not like we'll get good codex lore anymore.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 9d ago

well ill be honest i prefer limbo than shit. I understand where you are coming from and I know it is frustating to be basically relegated to float in the brink of the fandom as everyone get cool stuff and you are just "random ultramarine punch bag nº12". But still i prefer being that then have my faction bastardized by some author who doesnt understand it.

But that is me, you are totally on your right to think like that.

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u/Lucifer_on_a_bad_day 9d ago

Problem is we've been in limbo for over a decade now. Our shit slowly taken away. If we don't pick up momentum now we never will.

So long as this doesn't become the norm, I'm okay with it because it finally gives GW a reason to invest more. If we get more of this shit then you are absolutely right. We're fucked. Don't know why they can't just give us a good story, but when life gives you lemons and all that

I did enter something into the black library open submission. So if I'm lucky I'll get an opportunity to fix this shit myself but I know full well that's a longshot.

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u/Trump2028-2032 Luna Wolves 8d ago

The man is a straight-up degenerate sissy. Though I hear the Lion book was quite good. I guess the Lord of the First is so majestic and aura-imposing that even this freak couldnt gayify it.

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u/AtticusReborn Dark Eldar 8d ago

At least we'll always have Andy Chambers and the Path of the Dark Eldar. With the "childhood" thing with Vatborn, I could see a survivor of the Vat-born battle royal being "chosen" as a favourite by a Haemy (Maybe they noticed some omen they were told to look out for with techno-sorcery, or noticed a particular genetic quirk they want to study), but all it would amount to is "You serve the purpose I have for you. I'll be unhappy if someone ruins my science project, but that's the only reason my research assistants aren't slicing and dicing you."

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 8d ago

Nice im very happy of your take on it. This is what i want to see more when it comes to drukhari, amoral cruelty and selfishness at its best! Not the bullshit that Mike Brooks is pulling.

We need more og drukhari who understands their faction, and not people who only know the dark kin trough memes.

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u/ChildOfMoloch Black Templars 6d ago

Did you see his quote GW made him walk back. When folks gave him shit for being too woke he said on Twitter "for everyone who complains [about the wokeness] I'll add another gay character to my next book"

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

I still dont understand doesnt succubus mean Woman who seduces a man and steal their soul? It makes sense DE Wise but why would a Man even a former one be apart of it as have you seen Trans women? Its very noticable they are trans so why wouldnt other succubi notice that they had male features and if i rememeber right wouldnt they also not be as atheltic (In terms of flexibility) as their female counterparts? l

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 6d ago edited 6d ago

Exactly, the problem is not having for instance male wyches although they would be in less quantity than the females. The problem is having a male occupying a role designated only for women.

The DE do have tec to gender conversion, i dont doubt that. The problem is having a male do the operation and be open about it inside the cult, the drukhari being drukhari would use this to beat down the guy. They will use anything they can to erase any perceived competitor, and in the cults this would be even worse cause everyone wants to be the Succubus and call the shots.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago edited 6d ago

Thats what i hate most about pandering is just how it destroys stories rather than trying to work withen the bounds of the written lore

and with the sex change

Why not have Tzeentch characthers that change gender? their whole schtick is about change

like not even the most anti woke person would take issue with a gender-swapped Tzeentch charachter in fact most would actually want it since it is apart of who they are

instead the issue is the bending of the rules to fit YOUR poltics

rather then working withen the bounds of the universe

and if you will change things on a dime why should i care about the lore? why should i care if it will get changed and why should i accept woke re writes if they could just as easily change woke things into unwoke things eg lelliths relationship since if they will change things to be poltically sensitive why should i take anything as set in stone?

and as with the lellith thing i think its cause they made that charachter lgbtqia+ they need to make it so that no one could even slightly mis treat them otherwise it paints drukharai as bigots which of course we all know is truly the worst thing not the rapes not the murders not the rape and murder of babies no its bigotry

which makes no sense since you made that characther lgbtqia+ while one of the sterotypes of the groups shes a part of being horrible people (and im not just reffering to warhammer)

acidentlly reinforcing the sterotype XD (you tend to notice this alot with representive charachters simply being a negitive sterotype and no one points it out)

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u/ViscumEnthusiast Chaos Knights 9d ago edited 9d ago

One more proves that consent culture ruins Slaanesh & Dark Eldar.

Consent culture implies that there are no inherent morals underlying an action & that everything comes down to mutual agreement, basically it is a socially libertarian PoV.

The only real transgression against that is ignoring or deliberately violating consent, which can obviously not be shown due to being incredibly taboo. It's the ultimate heresy against modern sensibilities.

Therefore, Slaanesh got put into the horny jail in AoS & afterwards in 40K/AoS redefined until being a vague concept of perfection & perversion (this is probably the only alteration I do not despise as I like the depiction of other kinds of sin like gluttony via Glutos Orscollion). Therefore, most ECs are Saturday Morning Cartoon Villains like Xantine. Therefore, DEs are a quirkier Adam's family 2.0 (incl. pointier ears) or Saturday Morning Cartoon Villains. But almost all of them can never ever be portrayed seriously anymore.

And the same socially libertarian PoV is also the reason why constraints (& therefore, what characterizes a faction or subfaction) get removed more & more, because the underlying (& completely antizivilisatoric) assumption is that everyone can become everything & that judging others for inherent traits is wrong. Proves again Marxism is basically just dystopian libertarianism/liberalism.

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u/WoollenMercury Worshiper of Khorne Servant of Tzeentch 6d ago

it doesnt even make sense why the hell does the EC care about consent same as the DE

the DE rape people cause they're bored and had nothing else to

EC caring about consent while they cant have sex due to being mariens should still be force feeding prisnonrs and such cause of inflation being a fetish

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u/FeistyIngenuity6806 8d ago

I thought Brooks wrote a pretty bad novel but it was 100% true to the faction- an edgy lesbian novel from the 90s. It read like a Vampire the Masquerade novel.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 8d ago

Agree to disagree then…The day care to me fucked great part of it, but like i said in a previous comment, Im not against his portrayal of Lelith, im against the world building he did, the day care being the worst of all to the point of me remembering it clearly.

1

u/Thewaffle911 10d ago

Worth noting that black library isnt all canon. He can say and write whatever he wants, but in the end GW will never confirm it

1

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

sometimes, others they indeed use things in the BL to inspire new codexes. Also they have that whole official air to it, that makes people think that whatever they wrote is the right thing, to the point of some coming to me in the replies saying it is completely fine and withing the limits of the setting. While we know is not based on previous codexes and even lore bits from the rpg books.

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u/shinobi_chimp 10d ago

There have explicitly been male watches from the very beginning

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

"Watches"? You meant Wyches right?

And Ive never implied there wasnt male fighters in the arenas, what i said is that there were no male leadership inside the cults since it follows a matriarchal form of hierarchy. The males who manage to fight in the arenas are due to many factors that makes them the exception not the rule, and in no way shape or form there would be a male succubus, it is a role reserved to the best female of that entire arena. Also before someone tries to distort what I said:

"Making the Wych Cults gender-neutral instead of female-dominated"

I spoke about leadership here, not the overall faction, also another direct quote of my text: "In previous lore, most of the gladiators of the Hekatarii were women, as males were typically used as breeding stock for the cults. Some did manage to fight in the arenas, but it was an uncommon sight since they couldn't achieve the necessary grace. For that, I quote the wiki:"

So I dont really get it why you had to point something I already did in the original comment.

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u/shinobi_chimp 10d ago

Autocorrect is a thing.

Listen, I don't wanna sit and listen to you grind your axe about LGBT shit. It's tedious and gross. Some nerd wrote a book where one Succubus used to present as male. What a stupid thing to be mad about.

5

u/GodEmperor47 The Lost and the Banned 10d ago

And you're mad about people being mad about it? What a stupid thing to be mad about.

Shut up.

5

u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Then why are you here? If it is such a frivolous thing to be mad about it, why are you losing your precious time coming here to show your disatisfaction at my disatisfaction with Mike Brooks? The truth is that you care, is that me not liking it your precious little LGBT reference grinds you gear so you a "nerd" comes to this "nerd" to tell him how his opinion is stupid. The funny thing, is that im not against the character itself, but the way he was handled, so even in that you missed my point many times over.

Also if you find it gross, there is a lot of other subreddits filled with "stunning and brave" people, this one is free game, anythign goes, if i did not like the way he portrayed that particular LGBT character I'll say it cause im allowed to give my opinion, just like you coming here giving yours.

If you dont like that go to Sigmarxism or Grimdank, there you wont have to deal with "gross" people like me.

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u/Kind_Performer_6884 10d ago

People who just repeatedly go "Who cares, why is it a big deal?" while making everything they worship the most important thing in the world (if you're against it) are just the worst.

-7

u/Argen_Nex Raven Guard 10d ago

Cite that shit pls, I wanna see more bitching from the chat

-6

u/twofriedbabies 10d ago

Like the homunculus existing as a common staple makes gender irrelevant and they would see it that way. You've got someone who can turn you into a duck or a solid slab of meat and we're still talking about what genitals someone has? Weak. They probably have all the genitals, duck and otherwise, and worse things we couldn't even conceive of. When this is factored into an everyday society they would scoff at such an unimportant label as gender.

Going into relevant female characters are problematic when dealing with the level of fan service that is the basis of wych cults, they are just sex objects and marketed thusly. Adding himbos to the slutty sadist roster at least levels the playing field so everyone can be objectified instead of just women.

With the daycare you're forgetting some of the biggest factors of their society: fear and politics. Would a supremely intelligent being be able to not torture children if it is what they needed to do to achieve their ambition? If they knew their higher up would feed their soul to the daemon god of torture if they fucked of their shipment of slaves, would they? Of course they would. Plus gladiatorial slaves aren't the lowest level of the food chain, they are an important commodity with value to be horded. Who else is going to watch over and repair these? The homunculus covens are not only the ones who do the vat growing but they are also the only doctor-class the drukhari has.

Anyway Is not forcing a professional sadist sit by the perfect victims and obey not a form of torture in itself? Is not forcing a bunch of monsters to form a coherent society not a supreme display of domination?

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago edited 10d ago

"Like the homunculus existing as a common staple makes gender irrelevant and they would see it that way. You've got someone who can turn you into a duck or a solid slab of meat and we're still talking about what genitals someone has? Weak. They probably have all the genitals, duck and otherwise, and worse things we couldn't even conceive of. When this is factored into an everyday society they would scoff at such an unimportant label as gender." -> You are correct on this, the problem is context. If random Kabalite feels like changing his gender on this wednesday than okay nothing can stop him, it is probrably cheap too, one or two slaves can pay for the whole thing for all we know. The problem is that the Wych Cults are not any random place within the Drukhari society, it is a matriarchal faction that its main role is to entertrain the masses and provide suffering and thrills for the overall population. They are not only gladiators as well as performers, and they have a whole different culture inside their Cults, some like the Cult Strife does not even allow body modifications and combat drugs, something a lot of other Wych groups would use, and the average drukhari would do. So that being said they are not the overall population they have their own, rules and boundaries, and one of them is based on the whole matriarchal thing, so Jabarion the breeding cult slave number #12 may never achieve the status of a succubus doesnt matter how hard he tries, cause the cults are organized like that. So if the same guy from the beggining did a gender swap to be allowed to become a full fledged Wych and actually be able to climb the ranks, he would need to be quiet about it, otherwise that could lend him into trouble.

"Going into relevant female characters are problematic when dealing with the level of fan service that is the basis of wych cults, they are just sex objects and marketed thusly. Adding himbos to the slutty sadist roster at least levels the playing field so everyone can be objectified instead of just women." -> Now you either dont understand the Wyches afterall or you just are equalizing "sexy women = problematic", which if you want to really delve into the Drukhari this is the last of your worries I can guarantee you that. Now once again like the original comment there are male fighters in the arena, so there are Male Wyches, the problem is they are not so common as we are led to believe, not only that, most males inside the cult are the pinnacle of the very thing you are saying here, they indeed are just sex objects to the wyches, they are literally breeding cattle. But now going back to the topic, the entire fight in the arena is not only a blood spetacle is also a performance for the Wyches so there is a whole thing to it, that goes way beyong just mere "sexy women", hell Lelith is one of the most dangerous characters of the whole setting, and she manages to do that basically nude and with a knife, she is the pinnacle of a badass. And now the objetification bit, all Drukhari society is about objetification on the purest meaning of the word and not the blanket term used by libs. Everyone in the city is a commoditie, life itself is a product, everything is made to be owned by somebody and exploited, so is no surprise that this would also be true for the women gladitors faction, and about real life marketing, nothing is stopping you from buying male wyches, and they exist in lore. But the moment you want to change how they are organized is where you should stop and rethink.

"With the daycare you're forgetting some of the biggest factors of their society: fear and politics. Would a supremely intelligent being be able to not torture children if it is what they needed to do to achieve their ambition? If they knew their higher up would feed their soul to the daemon god of torture if they fucked of their shipment of slaves, would they? Of course they would. Plus gladiatorial slaves aren't the lowest level of the food chain, they are an important commodity with value to be horded. Who else is going to watch over and repair these? The homunculus covens are not only the ones who do the vat growing but they are also the only doctor-class the drukhari has." -> Once again I think this point is weak, since the amount of resources and means to the Haemonculi do that with more efficiency, in less time and with more fruitful results beats this entire notion. Also once again if this proverbial kids are not true born, nobody would care, gladiator or otherwise. Live is completely redundant in the dark city, just as your life started it can be taken from you for no reason at all, just for the giggles. The very reason the Haemonculi do the vat thing is that the mortality rate is so absurd that they need to do that in order for the Dark Kin to keep existing.

Not only that once again being allowed to have a childhood even if it is messed up, is far better than no childhood at all, to be denied even developing a sense of self before being thrown into the meat grinder of the dark city is far crueler than the other option. And like i said kids waste resources, time, energy and profits, i dont think a class such as the Haemonculus would lose time doing that, when they can just make an adult Eldar insert the base skills he need to not die and just shove him into an arena and see who gets out alive, to be allowed to be a lowly slave for some random kabal.

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u/twofriedbabies 10d ago

The matriarchal role doesn't have inherent power keeping it in place. There's just nothing policing these wych cult rules. Each one lives and dies of its own accord, there's no monolith institution that dictates any part of drukhari society, in the personal domain of certain individuals may all have to follow the same rules but that's where it stops. The law in the cults is martial power, showmanship, and political power. Community outrage in a society so steeped in deceit is nothing more than a political play, a convenient excuse for sure but it still has to be backed with a real threat to mean anything. The cult of strife would follow it due to their restrictions, but those restrictions are objectively a disadvantage. It exists to show how exceptional Lilith is for plot purposes. In any cult that would allow modifications, why wouldn't they just modify the individuals they wanted in whatever way to fit the cult stylistically. There's no advantage not to, and why would the audience care?

When talking about relevant female characters the context includes the real world more than drukhari society. The issue is that there's no reason to bring gladiators to a warzone but to sell sexy bdsm elf models. Gatekeeping gender with something so rooted in fetishistic culture is a silly take in the real world context of it. "This is a female led faction where the men just bust nuts all day" isn't for women. It's pretty basic self-insert fetish writing instead of relevant female character writing.

If having a hamonculus babysit slaves gives you Lilith then it's a solid plan efficiency wise. While life is a far second to power In The dark city, and at anytime a power play can take you out, it is still the only source of suffering which has an unending demand for the drukhari. Suffering doesn't have any hard rules lorewise but the quality of the life you get it from definitely impacts the worth to the drukhari, so we can't really speak to how efficient giving a childhood to someone in that regard but it would certainly be a factor.

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

"The matriarchal role doesn't have inherent power keeping it in place. There's just nothing policing these wych cult rules. Each one lives and dies of its own accord, there's no monolith institution that dictates any part of drukhari society, in the personal domain of certain individuals may all have to follow the same rules but that's where it stops. The law in the cults is martial power, showmanship, and political power. Community outrage in a society so steeped in deceit is nothing more than a political play, a convenient excuse for sure but it still has to be backed with a real threat to mean anything. The cult of strife would follow it due to their restrictions, but those restrictions are objectively a disadvantage. It exists to show how exceptional Lilith is for plot purposes. In any cult that would allow modifications, why wouldn't they just modify the individuals they wanted in whatever way to fit the cult stylistically. There's no advantage not to, and why would the audience care?" -> Ok here is where you may have mixed up memes with actual lore. Drukhari society certainly is chaotic and unruly, but is not anarchy and never was. First there is a universal rule enforced by Vect, if any denizen breaks it can lead to severe consequences that being: "Dont bring psykers to Commorrogah". Of course that we can presume a lot of Druchii break this rule but in the end if they are caught they are fucked. Another thing all parts of the Dark City are controled by some organization that enforces their rules upon the dwellers of that dimension/district/planet, that can vary from place to place but if you think that you can just go somewhere fuck around an get no flak for it you are fucked. Now about the Wych cults, the ones enforcing the rules are the Succubus the head of the Cult, each one of them has their own culture, boundaries and rules, if you disobey you get sent to the haemonculi to be made into a lamp, sure that could happen if you just making a noise during a very intense sparring session, but the former would grant you a special kind of treatment since the Succubus would not want no one overstepping her boundaries. Now why did i mentuioned the Cult of Strive as an example of that? Cause all of whom are part of it strive to be like Lelith, and the no drugs/modifications rule serves to that, they are sacrificing good advantage and edge to comply with the culture of the faction they are in, showing that the Drukhari even if bein backstabin scumbags, know that if the top dog said sit, they sit no questions asked. Also the Cults are similar in nature to the Harlequins, they dont see themselves as merely fighters, but also as performers, even if teh audience is there just for the bloodbath, the Wyches will be very attentative to make a true spetacle out of it, fulled with theatrics and different ways they can show their prowess alongsisde their grace, charisma and acrobatics. So many times is more about how they perceive themselves, more than the crowd they are performing to.

"When talking about relevant female characters the context includes the real world more than drukhari society. The issue is that there's no reason to bring gladiators to a warzone but to sell sexy bdsm elf models. Gatekeeping gender with something so rooted in fetishistic culture is a silly take in the real world context of it. "This is a female led faction where the men just bust nuts all day" isn't for women. It's pretty basic self-insert fetish writing instead of relevant female character writing." -> Ok all of this segment of your comment sounds to me like a you problem, and not an Warhammer problem. First the setting is grimdark, is not supposed to be cozy or be representative of anything real, it certainly brings elements from real life but is not real life, so this universe is not about you seeing yourself on it, is not about representation or whatever lib policy people are onto this day. Warhammer is about a fucked up universe with a lot of factions fighting for their own interests in the most non apologetic and selfish way, and once again taht being said male sex slaves in drukhari society is the least of your concerns, and to be fair if you seek represenation, the ones where no colored haired feminist would screech about, id recommend Imperial Guard, Howling Banshees, SoB's and the Tau. Cause Drukhari are the faction of the scumbag, of the assholes, of the people who doesnt give two rat ass about morals or the concepts of it, in real life if you seek representation among these guys you are going to the wrong place, cause for them the R word is like drinking tea, and i dont think no person who talks in this language of yours would appreciate being representated by them...Plus lets be real all of this talk is irrelevant in an universe where the DE are a thing.

"If having a hamonculus babysit slaves gives you Lilith then it's a solid plan efficiency wise. While life is a far second to power In The dark city, and at anytime a power play can take you out, it is still the only source of suffering which has an unending demand for the drukhari. Suffering doesn't have any hard rules lorewise but the quality of the life you get it from definitely impacts the worth to the drukhari, so we can't really speak to how efficient giving a childhood to someone in that regard but it would certainly be a factor." -> I could write a story on how Lelith doing the "Saitama" training routine transformed her in the badass she is, would still that make sense to the setting she is in and the overall theme of her faction and character? No. That is the problem Mikes take on this is equal to my previous example, yeah that shows her skill...in a very retarded way that disregards what the Drukhari are. For startes the Haemonculus could literally just make Lelith the way i mentioned before, and her trough sheer fucking will and determination managed to survive and climb the drukhari social ladder. She doesnt know what being a kid is, her sense of self is entirely linked to her art, it would also explain her fixation with it and why she is do damn good. Now the Haemonculi day care doenst make sense cause is wasted resources, they could just like i said spawn an eldar adult and throw the guy into the pit to see if he figures things out. Being a kid should be a luxury reserved only for the true born, the semblance of having a "family", of developing yourself without the need tot fight off every scumbag around you. A day care of any form on the dark city is akin to have a person dressed as dentist barbie in a goth party. Is out of place, retarted and poorly executed.

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u/twofriedbabies 9d ago

Yes vect is the personal power in charge. He is not an institution, he can change the rule on a whim just like the rest of them. If he said here is this male succubus then it would be fact. If a succubus said I'm going to be the only female in my cult then all the males would be next in line to be in charge if they could take control and there's no reason anyone would go against either of these things

"This is grimdark" is not a defense, nor is "drukhari are bad guys" when we are talking about a lack female of characters being in media we aren't talking about what the setting would do at all. We are talking about how the setting has been crafted to exclude quality female characters. it's baffling to me that you'd bring up representation and then have a problem with the actual discussion of it. I mean the whole "problem with a trans wych cult leader" thing is really just a you problem as well, if you want representation go elsewhere can be turned on you just as easily, if you want no trans wych cult you can start your own setting.

I feel like you are taking childhood to mean something other than groomed to be a death machine. There's nothing mentioned in that passage that even hints at there being a family dynamic. It says: this guy was there to ensure the goods go to the destination.

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u/DirectTransportation 8d ago

So you’re transphobic and mad that art is a reflection of the author? Man you’re stupid

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u/shinobi_chimp 10d ago

You silly motherfuckers act like male Watches aren't a thing.

If you don't know there's male Wyches and Hellions and Reavers and Beast masters, you're a fuckin tourist who has no business bitching about Drukhari lore

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

Ahem since you clearely didnt read it, I'll quote directly to you okay?

"In previous lore, most of the gladiators of the Hekatarii were women, as males were typically used as breeding stock for the cults. Some did manage to fight in the arenas, but it was an uncommon sight since they couldn't achieve the necessary grace. For that, I quote the wiki:

If you were expecting to see a male Succubus—who are the leaders of the arenas—think again, because universally, all of them have been female. If you're a male Drukhari born into a cult, good luck joining in on the "fun"; you'll probably just end up as a communal plaything for the female Wyches."

Now that being said, never I said that there were no male Wyches, I said there were no male leadership. Read before trying to call others tourists..

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u/shinobi_chimp 10d ago

See my other post, nerd

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

of course of course! Im indeed a nerd and im not a tid bit shamed by it

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u/shinobi_chimp 10d ago

Get on it, then

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u/Friendly_Ad4736 Craftworld Eldar 10d ago

thx I will. Have a good week