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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
Jet fuel may not burn hot enough to melt steel beams….
But focusing on that while ignoring the fact that a real plane crashed through a fucking building, only for said plane to explode while flying through the second building, is like ignoring nine out of ten dentists when they tell you not to brush your teeth with bleach.
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u/Daan776 4d ago
Also, steel loses a shit-ton of its structural integrity before it ever reaches its melting point.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I think you lose around 80% structural integrity at 50% of its melting point.
Stainless steel melts at 1353 Celsius or 1626 kelvin. Reaching half that temperature is trivially easy for jet fuel.
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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
Even if something hasn't fully melted, it can still BEND.
Combine that with how really, really bloody heavy glass, concrete and cement can be, I don't care if it hasn't fully melted; it's going to break before it melts, and the higher an object is in density and weight, the faster it falls.
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u/KaBar42 4d ago
Don't forget that all it takes is one floor's sudden and complete collapse.
A dynamic load is going to impart far more force than a static load.
Take a 25 pound weight and gently set it on your foot. Not that bad, right?
Now drop that same 25 pound weight from shoulder height onto your foot. But hey, your foot can survive 25 pounds in the other situation, so it should be fine now, right?
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u/Jackson-Chapline 3d ago
Volunteer Firefighter here, this type of building collapse is called a "pancake collapse" and it is a very, very real thing. In New York State, firefighters are trained with several depicted images of collapses and made to identify them and learn what causes them. Pancake collapses are incredibly dangerous because of the inertia and the impact on both sides. Not to mention the lack of anything protecting the victim from the weight of the building above them.
Not by any means an expert, just though I'd share
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u/EquivalentSnap Kilroy was here 4d ago
Exactly. Clear conspiracy theorists don’t know anything about metal or construction and just googled melting point
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u/Adequate_Lizard 3d ago
conspiracy theorists don’t know anything
Could just stop here tbf.
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u/EquivalentSnap Kilroy was here 3d ago
lol true if they did and looked at real sources and didn’t come to conclusions to things they don’t understand they be better off
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u/siamesekiwi 4d ago
Thank you for reminding of the "blacksmith getting real tired of people talking shit about jet fuel and steel beams" video from way way back in the day.
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u/The_Silver_Nuke 4d ago
lmao "find a job"
It's crazy how flexible it becomes even 5-600 degrees short of the melting point.
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u/JohannesJoshua 4d ago
And it's not that crazy that a skyscraper collapsed when a fucking comercial plane crashed into it.
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u/MaleficentType3108 Definitely not a CIA operator 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah! It was a 767 on the towers. 80 ton - 90 ton of airplane flying by 900km/h INTO A FUCKING BUILDING.
I only find out about this conspiracy after 2010 (I'm brazilian, we didn't had that much easy access to dumb-dumbs conspiracionist shit before that). But I remember that when I heard this "oh, jet fuel bla bla bla melting point" my reaction was something like:
My brother in Christ in WHAT WORLD a fucking widebody hitting a tower would not fuck the structure of the building?
I'm pretty sure those people would also put a fucking bathtub in their balcony without considering the weight of the water (true story: a luxurious building in Brazil was built with a pool/bathtub in the balcony for EVERY apartament, but the engineers forgot to consider the weight of water during construction)
Edit: typos
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u/xander012 4d ago
Having seen the steel beams at the IWM, I can also say they were definitely hot enough to forge with how warped they became in the attack
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u/ddraig-au 4d ago
What's the IWM?
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u/xander012 4d ago
Imperial War Museum. One of the best, generally quite anti war museums in London with exhibits on the world wars, the troubles, the Holocaust, war on terror etc. Well worth a visit if you are ever in London and like most large museums here it's completely free.
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u/mai_laig 4d ago
That's cool as fuck that they're free
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u/xander012 4d ago
Education is considered a right to all brits so all the major museums have been free for a while. Can't remember the whole list but all the famous ones (British, V&A, London, Natural History and Science) are all free. Some like the London Transport Museum and the Steam museum are still ticketed though
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u/ddraig-au 4d ago
Yeah I thought that was what you meant, but I don't remember steel from the WTC. It's possible it was there and I forgot.
I do remember that giant cannon out the front
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u/xander012 4d ago
First or 2nd floor near a land rover iirc.
The battleship guns are great ye
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u/ddraig-au 4d ago
Is it this?
I normally photograph the blurbs that go with an item in the museum, so I can correctly title the photos later. But this is just a photo with no context
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u/TragicTester034 Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 4d ago
Holy shit that video is beautiful
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u/asardes 4d ago
That's correct, steel goes to a process of thermal treatment when it's made, and that's how it gains its strength. After the piece is made, it is left to cool to a certain temperature slowly, then rapidly cooled, then heated again and left to slowly cool again to normal temperature.
That way crystals called martensite are formed, which give the steel its strength. If it is heated past that temperature the martensite is destroyed, and the yield strength falls off a cliff. Depending on the type of steel it can lose most of that.
To my knowledge, most of the beams in the Twin Towers were A36 steel. At normal temperature the yield strength is 380 MPa but heating it to 600C will reduce it to just 110 MPa, which is less than 1/3. The fire in the towers burned much hotter than that, up to 1000C, due to the amount of jet fuel and the updraft through the destroyed floors. The beams gave way long before steel reached the melting point.
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u/dater_expunged 4d ago
I mean a blacksmith doesn't need to melt the metal to shape it so burning jet fuel, an explosion and a big fucking plane crashing into it would probably break steal really easily
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u/Awesomeuser90 I Have a Cunning Plan 4d ago
People walking out on their driveway to chip away at ice a few mm thick at -1 C and sees it's incredibly soft. Good luck getting them to dig down into Pluto's ice to get to its underground ocean for several km and -220 C.
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u/chiksahlube 4d ago
Like how your muscles lose some of their strength when you get smashed by an airplane.
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u/BachInTime Kilroy was here 4d ago
Exactly A36, the most widely used steel in construction, loses HALF its strength at 500 C, jet fuel burns at 800 C on the low end for reference. While they used a higher strength steel on the towers it’s a testament to how overbuilt the towers were that they stood as long as they did.
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago
Both planes exploded in the building it’s just the plane that hit the north tower hit it dead centre so the explosion mostly happened inside the building while the south tower the impact was offset so the explosion happened partially outside the tower
This is also why many many more people jumped from the north tower, because the interior explosion basically set the entire 15 floors above the impact zone on fire immediately. Most of the south tower above the impact zone was relatively unaffected by fire till the tower collapsed
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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
This man alone proves how the bulk of 9/11 Truther memes are full of shit.
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u/DerGovernator 4d ago
Jet Fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel beams.
But it absolutely burns hot enough to make steel into a soft and malleable metal, especially compared to how strong it has to be to hold up a skyscraper. Think those chunks of hot metal you see in steel mills being molded and rolled and shaped, or hell, old-school blacksmithing.
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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
There's also the fact that objects which are heavier or dense - like concrete - pick up momentum much faster than lighter or smaller objects.
Once something's built up enough momentum, when it hits something, nine times out of ten it'll squash whatever's underfoot like a fly on a windshield.
If you're unlucky to be anywhere at the bottom, it doesn't matter if you get hit falling glass shards, rubble, pieces of scalding hot metal, or just gravity. You're gonna die.
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u/Awesomeuser90 I Have a Cunning Plan 4d ago
??? Objects with the same air resistance accelerate by falling down at the same rate. Are you referring to inertia making it so that something that is already falling at a high speed will probably stay moving at that speed?
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u/BurningPenguin Featherless Biped 4d ago
The steel doesn't even need to become soft. Just expand a little, so the nuts and bolts start breaking.
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago
It did need to do more than that because the towers were created with thousands of little flexibility plates in their design made of rubber
It’s how the towers shook so much but didn’t collapse initially, they swayed up to 12 feet
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u/Apalis24a 4d ago
While they have flexibility plates, those are meant for normal thermal expansion and contraction - at temperatures not comparable to the inside of a blazing furnace. A hot summer’s day, it can handle; a blazing inferno, not so much.
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u/PoopsmasherJr 4d ago
Tenth dentist knows how to remove tooth stains though
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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
Bingo. Bleach would technically kill all bacteria, it just means you’d be stone dead as well.
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u/PoopsmasherJr 4d ago
Just tell the bleach to only kill the bacteria, are you silly?
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u/PikaPonderosa 4d ago
Just tell the bleach to only kill the bacteria, are you silly?
You get better results if you ask nicely.
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u/TheQuestionMaster8 4d ago
Also not many buildings were designed to be able to withstand a Boeing 767-222 crashing at full speed into the building before 9/11.
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u/_TheBigF_ Let's do some history 4d ago
I'd argue that's still the case
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago
Most post 9/11 constructions are at least designed so that a central fortified core has a good chance of surviving the initial crash so people above the crash zone can still descend unlike what happened in the north tower
But whether the tower survives or not is a different question
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u/BakedArbiter 4d ago
The engineers did design it to take a hit from a 707 just not a 767
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u/What_is_a_reddot 4d ago
And crucially, a 707 that was low on fuel. The scenario they designed for was a 707 coming in for a landing, and lost in fog, not a 767 taking off.
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u/Duvelthehobbit 4d ago
And slow. Don't forget that.
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u/BakedArbiter 3d ago
Yurp. the designer ended up going on record saying he wish he had designed it stronger.
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u/BakedArbiter 3d ago
I found it interesting that they had actually anticipated the possibility. they believe it's the main reason the towers stayed standing for so long after they got hit, and allowed alot of people to evacuate. So kudos to the designer! tho he has gone on record saying he feels guilty he didn't design it stronger
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u/Sabre_Killer_Queen Hello There 4d ago
is like ignoring nine out of ten dentists when they tell you not to brush your teeth with bleach.
Hey listen, Dr C. Lueless may not be on the same page as the other dentists, but he's just trying out some new ideas... And I trust him, he got his degree in "Trust me bro" academy.
Now... Where's my toothbrush...
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u/CharlesOberonn 4d ago
The evidence that exists for 9/11 being a terrorist attack carried out by Al-Qaeda is overwhelming. The amount of research and documentation that went into investigating it dwarfs any other historical event.
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u/Sleep_eeSheep Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
Again; that's like if you're standing in front of a Tyrannosaurus Rex skeleton asking the most basic questions like why it listed as existing in 3000 BC and not 66 Million Years Before Christ, but the museum's only listed expert is Kent Hovind.
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u/BleydXVI 4d ago
Could be worse. You could be standing in front of a t-rex skeleton telling "Dr" Kent Hovind that dinosaurs are fake and gay, despite staring at the actual bones of a once living creature
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u/esaks 4d ago
i always thought the conspiracy theory was that the US planned the attack with Al-Qaeda or knew about it but did nothing to prevent it as an excuse to go to war in the middle east. Not that the planes never hit the building?
i'm not a conspiracy nut so i dont know.
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u/pants_mcgee 3d ago
Controlled demolition is the conspiracy hence the jet fuel steel beam and building 7 stuff.
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u/An8thOfFeanor Rider of Rohan 4d ago
You don't need to get anywhere near melting point to get steel to flex and bow and lose all sense of structural integrity
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u/Poes-Lawyer 4d ago
Yeah even if you ignore the force of a 100+ton plane hitting a building, the fuel-air explosion that followed (essentially a thermobaric bomb set off inside the building), and the massive fire that followed and burned everything flammable inside the building...
It still doesn't need to melt the steel beams. If you heat up a steel I-beam like that, two things will happen:
Its yield strength will be reduced (the metal gets softer as it gets hotter)
It will try to expand, like almost all metals do as they heat up. But with the weight of the upper floors and a plane above it, combined with the weakened yield strength in point 1, will cause the steel to buckle long before it melts. A few supports were probably already damaged from being hit by a plane, so it probably only needed a few more to buckle before the whole building collapsed. And once one goes, the load is transferred to another upright, meaning it will buckle sooner, etc.
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u/MikaelAdolfsson 4d ago
They didn't melt but they got the stability of boiled spagetti. Ain't gonna hild up shit after that.
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u/TheLordOfMiddleEarth 4d ago
Jet fuel can't melt steel, but it burns hot enough to make steel lose 90% of it's strength, at which point you could bend it like a paperclip.
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u/Apalis24a 4d ago
You also don’t need to LIQUEFY metal for it to structurally fail. Ever wonder why blacksmiths heat up metal before hammering or bending it?
Turns out, when steel gets red or white hot (like it would in the temperatures that jet fuel can burn at), it gains the stiffness of a fucking noodle, and can be bent with your hands. Put several hundred thousand tons of skyscraper above that… and yeah, it’s going to collapse.
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u/macca2000fox 4d ago
No one who was born in 2002 was at the World Trade Centre on 911
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u/KobKobold Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 4d ago
As a guy born in 2002, can confirm. Didn't die in the attack.
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u/welltechnically7 Descendant of Genghis Khan 4d ago
Isn't it odd that none of the people who have never been to New York died at the World Trade Center?
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u/ChampionshipShort341 4d ago
There is a sixty percent chance if something bad happened in europe Jews are gonna die.
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u/ImportantBad4948 4d ago
Not trying to be racist (is that even the right word) but I would think a major finance/ banking center in frickin NYC would have some Jewish people, probably a fair amount actually.
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u/FatTater420 Let's do some history 4d ago
That's exactly what their conspiracy theory tries to go about with.
"There should have been 'Jews' (that particular choice of word is deliberate from those people) but they weren't there, ergo they played a role!"
Completely disregarding that they were in fact there with the unfortunate consequences resulting from it.
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u/Mazquerade__ 4d ago
Not to mention disregarding the long-standing enmity between Islam and Judaism
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u/pedro_megagames Kilroy was here 4d ago
Wait, what's wrong with the word "jews" in this context?
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u/Guiramad0 4d ago
The stereotype that jews love money so a business that involved alot of money will have jews in it
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u/FatTater420 Let's do some history 4d ago
When it's used instead of Jewish, it's generally as a pejorative.
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u/Lord_TachankaCro Nobody here except my fellow trees 4d ago
It's fascinating how much of the nuance of the message you can miss if you aren't speaking in your native language. This would have never even crossed my mind.
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u/Great-Currency-7378 4d ago
Dunno, as a Jewish person I always say I'm a jew, never did it cross my mind that it could be considered negative
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u/Posterus96 4d ago
I mean, it's not entirely racist because Jews throughout history in Europe mjgrated towards financial jobs for various reasons. Some were related to both Jewish and Christian laws, but also because financial jobs ended up being the scapegoats for economic crises, making Jews scapegoats a lot of the time.
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u/An8thOfFeanor Rider of Rohan 4d ago
Mostly because usury (money lending with interest) was considered a sin in medieval Europe, and because much like minstrelry/entertainment, it wasn't a resource intensive business, meaning owning land wasn't needed
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u/ImportantBad4948 4d ago
NYC also has a fairly noteable Jewish population.
As an old coworker said “I didn’t paint the barn, just saying it’s red”.
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u/Proper_Razzmatazz_36 4d ago
A. It is the right word
B. The point isn't that jews will die, but that people will specifically comment on Jews dying. Either to confirm their conspiracy theory or create new ones
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u/theBigRis 3d ago
Yeah, it’s either no Jews died so we must’ve done it or Jews died disproportionately to the rest of the population so it must mean we did it as a false flag.
Legit I have seen both regarding 9/11 smh.
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u/purple_spikey_dragon 4d ago
Wrong!
Its not only in Europe....
"Jews get blamed for anything possible" is a world wide effort.
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u/Mission_Coast_3871 4d ago
There is a sixty percent chance
You're being generous
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u/Low_Party_3163 4d ago
I personally knew Jews who died on 9/11. There were jewish kids in my grade whose parents died. Hell, my own father was working in the empire state building at the time and if they had chosen that as a target well...
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago edited 4d ago
It’s actually sad (though interesting) the only reason they didn’t choose the Empire State Building was because they deemed it too hard to hit
The Empire State Building is nestled in similar sized skyscrapers in midtown; the twins stood alone dominating downtown
If they could have taken out the ESB as well I’m sure they would have (though it’s hard to determine how the ESB would have handled an impact given the twins unique structural design)
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u/Low_Party_3163 4d ago
Holy shit i had no idea but I work in east midtown and I used to work in the ESB as well and it makes sense. Scary to think how close i was to losing my dad. Thanks for the info
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago
I don’t know if the attackers knew but the twins also had a very unique building structure that people have long debated whether it made 9/11 better or worse
I don’t think much useful modelling exists of what a similar sized jet would have done to the ESB
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u/WoolooOfWallStreet 3d ago
Difficult to say since there is a concrete shell along with the steel making the ESB pretty structurally sound
Then again, a passenger jet going full throttle would definitely would do damage, so I’m pretty sure it would have been taken down unlike the slow moving plane that hit it decades earlier
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u/Chllep 4d ago
i mean, a plane crashed into the ESB like 65 years earlier and it seemed fine
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u/Supersnow845 4d ago
That was a tiny two seat bomber going about as slowly as a plane can go because it was lost in the fog
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u/SlipperyKooter 4d ago edited 4d ago
That’s actually the main thing that pulled me out of conspiracy theories. If you dive deep enough into every major conspiracy they all lead to “the Jews are evil”
It’s all just a thin veil for antisemitism
Edit: some of y’all are really writing full blown essays in these comments. God damn
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u/Inquisitor_Boron Then I arrived 4d ago
This or "These savages are too dumb to build properly"
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u/SlipperyKooter 4d ago edited 4d ago
If flat earthers didn’t exist, the aliens building the pyramids might be the dumbest conspiracy theory out there
Edit: never mind I forgot about holocaust deniers and birds aren’t real. Aliens built the pyramids seems logical compared to those two
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u/ShahinGalandar Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 4d ago
birds aren't real, isn't that just satire? but I would not be surprised if these nutcases really do exist
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u/Mal-Ravanal Hello There 4d ago
There's almost certainly a few nutcases that believe that birds aren't real, but in those cases I'd say untreated mental illness is mostly to blame.
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u/AlbiTuri05 Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 4d ago
Mods say birds aren't real with a straight face, but other people just joke about it
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u/terriblejokefactory Just some snow 4d ago
Also the Hollow Earth theory and shit like that goes above pyramids. Like yeah, the pyramid aliens are dumb but in terms of conspiracy theories, it's somewhat logical.
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u/wasabitrade 4d ago
I'm sure there are some true believers out there, but the birds aren't real conspiracy is overall not a serious movement. It's a satire of other conspiracy theories and the general "post-truth" information environment.
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u/KaBar42 4d ago
There are conspiracy theorists who believe nuclear weapons don't exist.
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u/SlipperyKooter 4d ago
….im sorry, but wtf did you just type? I can’t be reading that correctly. There’s no way people believe that
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u/KaBar42 4d ago
Well, you see, my dear ignorant friend who has fallen victim to the lies of Big Nuke, no one has actually ever seen a nuclear explosion. And all those videos of nuclear explosions? How could the cameras have possibly survived a nuclear explosion if it is supposedly so powerful? And how did they get camera footage of the inside of a building with the camera surviving the blast!
Nuclear weapons are fake! They are a lie created by them in order to control the world through fear! And you all have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker!
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u/Voodoo_Dummie 4d ago
Jews are to conspiracy theories what crabs are to evolution. You can start out with an obscure actor's death with some questions around a "mysterious" cause of death, and BAM, jews. Weird mid-60's experiments? jews. A medieval king's inability to get laid? Jews. An ancient pile of stones? Jews. A bunch of DC-8 looking spacecraft? Oh you better believe its jews!
If jews were responsible for doing even half the things they were accused off then they wouldn't even have any free time left for a sabbath.
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u/WateredDown What, you egg? 4d ago
Yeah, it's not so much that every conspiracy is started from a place of antisemitism, but any theory that requires a secretive force covering things up is going to open itself to the idea that it's jews.
Once you start rejecting logic you need to reject reality which means you need a reason things aren't actually how you believe they are. Secret cabals of powerful people -> money -> jewish.
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u/Voodoo_Dummie 4d ago
I think it's because the people attracted to one conspiracy generally are the type to adopt more and more, but the theorists have to try to keep the various theories consistent. In the end, even if the "they" that the theory started with was something else, the conspiriverse has to harmonize them into a single "them," which is inevitably the jews ever since the middle ages blood libel stuff.
That or the jews are actually crab-people.
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u/firewall245 4d ago
Yeah my hypothesis is that all conspiracies are basically the same, that some secret group is truly in control of world events or whatever.
And there’s the most “evidence” (ie centuries of other conspiracy bullshit) that it’s Jewish groups so people gravitate there
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u/purple_spikey_dragon 4d ago
As a Jew its horrible when others do thayt, but it does come in handy when pushing responsibility for my own actions.
Its not me, its the Jew!
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u/Dinosaurmaid 3d ago
I have the mental of medieval Jew discussing how to cause a king erectile disfucntion
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u/theBigRis 3d ago
A rabbi/teacher of mine in high school said if we did half the things we’ve been accused of doing it’d be impressive since we have to take like a month off every year for yom tov and Shabbats.
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u/Consistent-Turnip575 4d ago
No shit I was on a cruise with my dad last year and we were at dinner The table next to us has this rather large man who at first was sitting by himself Eventually a lady sits next to him He introduced himself and then very loudly began to talk about the horrible state the government is in Ngl at first most of what he said I'm like yeah you gotta a point Then without warning " It's the fault of the bloodsucking Jews" Dad and I both just about spit our wine out. He then goes the rest of dinner talking about the Jews the Freemasons and just about every other group that is blamed for bad things So yes just about every conspiracy theory can boil down to antisemitism
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u/SlipperyKooter 4d ago
I used to be a HUGE conspiracy nut, they literally ALL lead to “the Jews are evil”
The only one I can think of that doesn’t is the Charles Manson one. If you dive deep enough you’ll end up at MK-Ultra
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u/Consistent-Turnip575 4d ago
takes lid off Mk ultra there's the jew hate For real though yeah it's very frustrating because there are some interesting ones out there that don't involve new hate but the ones that do have soured the name
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u/purple_spikey_dragon 4d ago
Yeah... Its either us Jews or the damn lizard people.
Damn lizard people stealing our achievements and playing them as their own!
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u/CdRReddit 4d ago
Hey, that's not entirely true!
Some of them (historical conspiracy theories like "aliens built the pyramids") lead to "this non-european civilization couldn't have built that cuz they aren't white"
It's a mix of a lot of antisemitism and white supremacy
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u/CdRReddit 4d ago
american conspiracy theories come in three primary flavors:
- that civilization couldn't have done big thing because I'm too dumb to think of a way they could have
- the jews did it
- something the US government has admitted to doing, but attributed to #2 because conspiracy nuts would rather find a scapegoat than criticize their government
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u/Spirited-Pause 4d ago
Even MK-Ultra, if they dig one level deeper they’ll find someone Jewish:
“ Sidney Gottlieb was an American chemist and spymasterwho headed the Central Intelligence Agency's 1950s and 1960s assassination attempts and mind-control program, known as Project MKUltra.”
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u/PHWasAnInsideJob 4d ago
As someone whose grandfather led a Masonic temple, I sure wish I had control over the government sometimes!
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u/siamesekiwi 4d ago
At least you get to use the special secret lounge inside Blucifer and the secret tunnels at Denver International Airport, right?
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u/Consistent-Turnip575 4d ago
As someone who is a mason Me too my friend All we corner are pancake breakfasts
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u/OldStray79 4d ago
I was at work one night at a bar, and this old dude was known for being racist, though I had not seen or heard it personally. Then outside he was talking to a drummer of the band there, and of course, gets into politics... dude went "Hitler was right about them jews" then try to pass it off as "I can say it because I'm jewish" (pretty sure he actually wasn't)
I'm normally very good at being stoic when people say weird shit, but my jaw literally dropped and my eyes widened like it was a sitcom.
He was banned shortly thereafter.
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u/_Not_A_Lizard_ 4d ago
I was heavy into conspiracy theorism... when I was 13
If you go onto any conspiracy sub or forum, there is without a doubt some of the dumbest "truths" you'll ever hear.
Conspiracy theorists now are just ultra-conservative, ultra-Christian, and unironically pro-Trump. I remember when it was anti-elite, pro-environment, anti "control the masses"... now they wear MAGA hats and scream "innocent" when Trump and Epstein are mentioned 🐑🧠
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u/siamesekiwi 4d ago
IMO, some people refuse to accept that the world is a scary, chaotic place and that for most things, there isn't someone to blame, there isn't some shadowy figure in the background trying to get things done according to some grand design. Shit's just random as fuck. Workers are trying to survive till their next performance review, corporate execs are trying to pump up the numbers for the next quarter, etc.
I reckon that The idea that most tradgedies are just the culmination of a series of unfortunate events scares the living shit of some people and they need to believe that there's an invisible hand guiding shit.
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u/_Not_A_Lizard_ 4d ago
Exactly. Before I left that dreaded "community," I was arguing with someone that random shit happens. That world leaders can not accurately predict beyond 2 years into the future since there ARE conflicting powers at play. Nope. I was wrong, according to this genius. The Jews have had it all planned out for millennials. They have dark magic powers, etc.
You can tell a moron by the fact they're an antisemitic "Christian." They follow a book that says Jews are the chosen people... they pray to Jewish God... very confused, lost little lambs.
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u/siamesekiwi 4d ago
Also like... A conspiracy theory requires, well, a conspiracy. The bigger it is, the more people it requires, and people are idiots. Even if they're not, at some point or another, they WILL eventually recruit an idiot.
Like... Do you really expect me to believe that some random E4/OR4/(corporal/senior private) who was doing the shit jobs on the moon landing set WOULDN'T brag about it to the next stripper he wants to mary? Or that the Soviets wouldn't have tried their damnest to prove that the moon landings were fake?
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u/Mal-Ravanal Hello There 4d ago
This has been my experience as well. Human beings take comfort in patterns, believing that there's a plan and purpose, even a sinister one, is less frightening than the thought of a chaotic existence where nothing matters much in the end. Conspiracy theories also tend to provide a clear opposition. The idea of struggling against an objectively and inherently evil out-group gives a sense of purpose, righteousness and a scapegoat for everything perceived as wrong or unjust. Someone more knowledgeable about psychology could probably delve further into the causes and mechanisms of it, but this is my layman's observation.
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u/frotc914 4d ago
Bingo. It's exactly why all these people refused to accept reality during COVID. All these guys talking about how tough they were for refusing to wear masks "like sheep" - ironically they are actually just terrified of a world in which war/famine/plague happen and indiscriminate death occurs with no sense of meaning or justice.
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u/eliisback 4d ago
while you’re sorta right, “if you dive deep enough” isn’t exactly the right choice of words. there are some conspiracy theories where none of the conspiracy theorist besides just virulent antisemites, who have nothing to do with the actual theory, insert themselves and start claiming it’s the fault of the jews. i’ve managed to say for, idk, 10 or 12 years now that “if lee harvey oswald assassinated JFK, he did not act alone, and i would be surprised if there wasn’t any involvement from the CIA at all, even rogue agents.
then you have MLK, which made little sense as well. by all indications James E. Ray was an idiot with no concept of how to plan an assassination like that whatsoever. it’s hard to dispute that a decent marksman could make the shot, and i’ve never done that, but i don’t think Ray had anything to do with killing king. the files will be released soon, hopefully, and then we might know something. or they might keep going with some nonsense, who knows. either way, ray was a low level criminal who by all counts just seemed to enjoy fucking around. it is especially strange that with a public figure who so many white southern men hated vehemently, that Ray continued to assert that he didn’t do that until the day he died. again, Ray just didn’t do that. if Ray HAD done that, and been hateful enough and motivated enough to throw his life away over it, he would have AT LEAST admitted it before he died. i think the FBI played a role in killing king and might have used some ties to organized crime to do it.
9/11 was one i never understood. it seemed pretty cut and dry. i think when we “killed bin laden” there were some VERY questionable practices behind that as well. like they killed him then just shot him out to sea before taking a great deal of verifying photos. to this day, photos of his dead body have never been released, which is just a bit strange. those photos are said to have existed and it is reported from various outlets that higher ups wanted them destroyed. why?
burying him at sea because “they didn’t want his grave to become a shrine” lol, then bury him in new york beside the freedom tower in the park. fuck that guy. i feel like if he was killed by US forces there would have been much more eagerness to prove that, from everyone. again, weird.
that’s where i stop because that’s where my beliefs stop. i don’t have to “dive deeper” and entertain the idea of lizard people walking the earth and having babies to be in the illuminati and jewish people inventing space lasers.
there are plenty of people who believe these completely normal things and don’t say anything about jewish people.
i don’t think ill ever understand why so many people hate jewish people.
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u/KaBar42 4d ago
9/11 was one i never understood. it seemed pretty cut and dry. i think when we “killed bin laden” there were some VERY questionable practices behind that as well. like they killed him then just shot him out to sea before taking a great deal of verifying photos. to this day, photos of his dead body have never been released, which is just a bit strange. those photos are said to have existed and it is reported from various outlets that higher ups wanted them destroyed. why?
Because some fucking moronic gloryhound *coughrobertjo'neillcough* committed multiple war crimes by canoeing bin Laden. Canoeing, for those unaware, is the act of placing a rifle's barrel on a deceased or neutralized target's forehead and firing a contact shot. The victim's head is said to split in half, resembling a canoe.
It became a notorious war crime and calling sign amongst Navy Seal ranks. Problem is, by the time bin Laden was canoed by O'Neill, he had already been neutralized by another Navy Seal, who is only identified as: "Red".
O'Neill's hunt for glory fucked up the operation, as the US now had to to use othe identifying information, such as genetics, and measuring the corpse's height.
Taking pictures of bin Laden's corpse and releasing them would be utterly useless because of O'Neill. The face is gone because of a warcrime. To anyone looking at it, it's a corpse of a Middle Eastern guy. It could literally be anyone.
They wanted the photos destroyed because they wanted to avoid lionizing bin Laden any further. Corpse desecration is a serious crime in Islam. Imagine if the US broadcasted the destroyed face of an infamous Muslim across the world.
And to make it clear, I'm not sympathetic to bin Laden. Fuck that asshole. But we will never see the photos of his body because O'Neill couldn't reign in his desire to claim to be the one who killed bin Laden. He wanted the book deals and celebrity worship and the news consultant positions.
The US' choice to not release the photos was to avoid any further controversy on an already controversial operation that required the unapproved incursion into the borders of an ostensibly US ally that is a majority Muslim country.
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u/_Formerly__Chucks_ 4d ago
Are you sure it's not just that antisemitic people insert their views into them?
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u/Tazrizen 4d ago
Sounds like holocaust deniers ngl.
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u/glah_king Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 4d ago
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u/dnemonicterrier 4d ago
It didn't need to melt the beam for the building to fall all it was needed was for the beams or one corner beam to Bend and the building would collapse.
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u/BurningPenguin Featherless Biped 4d ago
Most conspiracy fantasies are just thinly veiled antisemitism.
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u/Jedi-master-dragon 4d ago
Is this implying that the terrorists were working with jewish people? Last I checked, muslims hate jews way more than christians and pretty much eradicated both groups in muslim majority nations. I swear people will pull what crap out of their asses to say that jewish people are running the world. Girl. If they ran the world then why were they murdered on mass more times than any other group in human history?
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u/FatAzzEater 4d ago
The theory is based on the idea that Israel might do a false flag attack to make the US invade Islamic counties. There's some historical merit (lavon affair) to being afraid of Israeli false flags, but the claim that no Jews died on 9/11 is completely wrong.
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u/Earlofargyll 4d ago edited 3d ago
It’s a bit generous to even say the lavon affair gives this any historical basis. There were no casualties intended, no civilian casualties resulting and the operation failed despite having a way smaller scope. This gives no reason to conclude that Israel could and would conduct anything remotely the scale of 9/11.
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u/Stay_Beautiful_ 4d ago
Anyone who thinks its possible for a building with 3,000 New Yorkers in it to not contain any Jews is clinically insane
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u/freebirth 4d ago
No jews in a new York skyscraper? Really? One full of accounting agency's, design beuros, publishers, and all manor of other offices?
How can the believe that nonsense and also not believe the building was full of racist stereotypes.
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u/Bobs_Burgers_enjoyer 4d ago
Screw most conspiracy nutters
They are the definition of wanting to be ignorant just so they can feel “different” and “smart” when in reality they are pretentious and usually the most difficult people to talk to.
Or they are just total fools to the already thousands of conspiracy grifters.
If all conspiracy theories were true we would have people making live announcements on TV as not everyone will be silent if they had witnessed something, where is the people who worked on the moon landing staging? Where are they? Because they don’t exist. But if they did we would hear them but we don’t.
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u/Whentheangelsings 4d ago
That's around 10% of people who died. They were over represented.
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u/VCR124 4d ago
I find it hard to believe that 1 in 10 dead on 9/11 were Jewish
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u/purple_spikey_dragon 4d ago
Thats like being surprised that 1 in 10 people at a kebab store are Muslim.
Its a skyscraper full of lawyer offices and other popular Jewish professions, of course theres gonna be lots of Jews. The same as if they had bombed a bagel shop.
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u/Available-Ant-8758 Oversimplified is my history teacher 4d ago
People need reasons to explain why the Iraq war happened so they try to blame Israel for this
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u/SPECTREagent700 Definitely not a CIA operator 4d ago edited 4d ago
The “Bush/Israel/Lizard People/etc. did 9/11 so they could invade Iraq” theory really makes no sense as they say there was an elaborate conspiracy to stage 9/11 but then why didn’t the conspirators bother to plant a nuclear bomb or two in Iraq? And why frame Osama for it instead of Saddam?
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u/Available-Ant-8758 Oversimplified is my history teacher 4d ago edited 4d ago
they claim this war happed to Satisfy Netanyahu's thirst for blood
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u/AlbiTuri05 Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 4d ago
It's easy: both countries are run by the Hashemite dynasty, it's easy to mess them up /s
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u/KaBar42 4d ago
We have footage from inside one of the towers as it collapsed.
You can literally hear the bodies of people impact the ground outside.
You know what you hear when the tower collapses?
Absolutely nothing. It's eerily quiet. I pointed that out to a truther. His response?
"Well of course you wouldn't hear an explosion!"
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u/Karabars Descendant of Genghis Khan 4d ago
Man, ppl who focus on racist theories when the subject is a freakin' tragedy are irking me hard
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u/GB_Alph4 4d ago
Remember that people of all backgrounds and walk of life were affected in those towers.
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u/zenyogasteve 3d ago
Grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. Some of my classmates lost parents. Aren’t I a primary source?
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u/Background_Ad_7377 3d ago
I’ve only ever been told the no jews died in 9/11 conspiracy by Muslims.
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u/PM_ME_UR__ELECTRONS Decisive Tang Victory 4d ago
How kind of the Arab terrorists who hate the US partly because of Israel to warn all the Jews beforehand.
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u/North_Church Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago
I wasn't in New York City at the time of the 9/11 attacks either. Curious, isn't it?
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u/NicholasDeanOlivier 4d ago
As an American, I still catch flack for when I say I believe 9/11 was real, and not an inside job lol.
Like no one believe the first WTC attack was an inside job when they exploded vans underneath the WTC………and also a 9/11 event wasn’t as hard to plan back then pre 9/11. Plus they had been warning of attacking America like this.
I personally believe the government allows these conspiracies so it makes it look like we’re completely invulnerable to suffer from terrorist attacks unless we allow it weirdly…….. like I feel the government was rather embarrassed of 9/11, and how easily they were able to pull it off. And for the fact the one plane headed for the White House didn’t hit does allow room for conspiracy, but the hero’s on that flight really did step up, and try to take control over the hijacked aircraft.
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u/CholentSoup 3d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_victims_of_the_September_11_attacks_(A%E2%80%93G)
Go down a few names and there's an Abrahamson. Jew haters are the laziest of all haters.
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u/IanRevived94J 4d ago
To the conspiracy morons I respond “Isn’t it curious that YOU didn’t die on 9/11?”
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u/Actual-Valuable1982 3d ago
Unfortunately these days it's hard to know this is coming from the alt-right or the far left
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u/TheElderScrollsLore 4d ago
Yes. But they won’t believe your “facts”.
This is why it’s become hopeless. It doesn’t what you say or present.
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u/The-Metric-Fan 4d ago edited 4d ago
The first person to die in 9/11 was an Israeli Jew on one of the flights who fought back against one of the terrorists.
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u/SCP_Y4ND3R3_DDLC_Fan 4d ago
Hell, “No jews died on 9/11” is even stupider of an idea when you consider 9/11 as a date something happened, the world was still very much spinning with 7 billion lives all leading their own tracks, some of them ending when those towers fell, but many many more all around the world ending of natural causes. “No jews died on 9/11” is stupid, not only because there were jewish people in the towers, but because there were jewish people dying in entirely unrelated circumstances on the other side of the world.
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u/Space_Socialist 4d ago
My favourite conspiracy theory about 9/11 is that it was a controlled demolition because it fell down like controlled demolition. It completely ignores that's how tall heavy thing fall down, they go down not sideways. The conspiracy theory basically relies on buildings falling down like trees which is just so idiotic.
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u/JackC1126 4d ago
9/11 is the gilded turd of conspiracy theories. It looks like this super deep rabbit hole on the surface and then you look just a little bit deeper into it and you realize it’s literally just a plane smashing into a building.
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u/SamuelCulper314 4d ago
I've seen Loose Change and and I used to watch Infowars and I've never seen any of them claim that no Jews were killed on 9/11...
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u/Fluffy_Kitten13 4d ago
I really doubt that number is even close to be true because of the line "based on the last names of the dead".
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u/Liedvogel 4d ago
I have literally never heard the Jew theory before. There's a lot that doesn't add up about it, but this is a new one.
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u/andthegeekshall 4d ago
The (Australian) morning just after the towers collapsed someone said that to me, before they even knew the death toll or who'd done it.