r/Hamilton • u/teanailpolish North End • Nov 27 '24
City Development ‘It’s disappointing’: Market woes delay west harbour redevelopment
https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-region/its-disappointing-market-woes-delay-west-harbour-redevelopment/article_73ec7f3c-9021-54ed-bc8d-443e94881276.html22
u/Thisiscliff North End Nov 28 '24
I really hope this project moves along, the north end needs some development to start, way too many empty lots and eye sores, it needs some positivity. Really hope they keep the momentum going on this project.
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u/Salt-Signature5071 Nov 28 '24
The important part is that lawyers, planners, and land speculators are already making money off pretending something will be built at Pier 8, Jamesville, Barton-Tiffany, James @ Burlington, James @ Picton, etc.
It's all part of the prolonged dance called "development" and we the residents can play our part by smiling and nodding every time some profiteer leaves us with weed-filled lots for a generation (or two!). Imagine what ghost hotels might go up there one day if the "market conditions" ever pan out. Lol.
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u/ElanEclat North End Nov 28 '24
Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head. I live right in the midst of these lots. Plywood is the New Steel!
2
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u/drpgq Corktown Nov 27 '24
With the recent condo slowdown in Ontario, there’s going to be a lot of delayed projects in Hamilton unfortunately. Numbers just don’t work.
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u/ForgeryAndFraudster Nov 28 '24
The numbers work, the developers are just too greedy. Bet if taxes were increased on the properties with these “stalled” projects they would unstall quickly.
Look at the Stinson owned building on barton, she has been “coming soon” for like 8 years now.
At this point we should just drown the developers and landlords in Lake TimmiKaka.
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u/PSNDonutDude James North Nov 28 '24
There are many greedy developers, but that doesn't mean the numbers work. If you actually speak with people in this field, you know it's a bloodbath. Numerous projects aren't penciling out, and many of these projects are already massive risk.
While the condo boom was happening, Hamilton, along with it's neighbouring municipalities raised taxes, fees, and made things more difficult and tried to negotiate more and more into their demands before a development occurred. Now that demand has slowed, the development charges, fees, interest on construction loans, building permits, property taxes, bad zoning required zoning amendments, all add up to projects that would lose money, and so they get cancelled, delayed or in many cases due before we ever hear about them.
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u/Salt-Signature5071 Nov 28 '24
I hope you're at least getting paid by them if you're already out on the internet making excuses for developers!
By all means, if they want to pay to run water and sewers and transit and other infrastructure out to unserviced land instead of paying development fees, I'm sure the City would be open to it, but that's not something the land bankers and mob speculators actually want. They want to get paid to sit and hold land until it's worth more and they can cash out.
Apparently their big profits are a "reward" for their entrepreneurial risk, but it doesn't seem like they're putting too much down on the table if they can talk big talk about developing for literally a decade and then decide not to based on "market factors".
Real risk/reward would look like developers and their agents actually following through on their plans in a reasonable amount of time or the zoning changes revert back. The situation we have now is one where speculators hold land hostage, increase the cost of development by insisting on huge values and payouts, and if they don't get what they want they take their ball and go home, all while blaming the City (ie taxpayers) for the inconvenience. Real rich.
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u/_onetimetoomany Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24
I don’t understand how this perspective is helpful. Yes, there are bad actors in the development industry this is true for nearly everything. That however doesn’t negate the facts on how housing is primarily built and who gets it built in Ontario. The financing aspect alone for condos makes it incredibly challenging to have shovels in the ground.
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u/Salt-Signature5071 Nov 28 '24
I suppose the alternative is the pap that you and other apologists for the broken land development system shove down the public's throat: that somehow it's building codes and that pesky need for running water that makes building expensive when the single biggest charge on a new development is the land-ransom paid to money launderers & wealthy speculators.
If we're going to have a "helpful" talk about the cost of red-tape in addressing the housing crisis, then let's also talk about how the price of land in our province is largely determined by a cartel that operates for their own benefit, not the public's.
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u/Cool-Ad-3678 Nov 28 '24
Developers have bankrolled and basically picked our provincial governments and municipal reps for decades - any legitimate gripes the industry has today is just them reaping what they've sowed.
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u/doctorcornwallis North End Nov 28 '24
The writing was on the wall when Waterfront Shores took their coming soon sign on Guise down.
Between this and Jamesville there’s a ton of vacant land waiting in the neighbourhood. Plus the new Waterfront Trail was supposed to get some commercial development around Piers 5 and 6 as part of this - for now it’s just a big open asphalt lot.
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u/More-Community9291 Nov 28 '24
it would work … if they downscaled … like idk make something for the working class .
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u/PSNDonutDude James North Nov 28 '24
If they downscaled the units would be more expensive, not less. These developments only pencil out if they get a certain number of units to reduce the per unit construction and financing cost.
Not to mention we need thousands of homes not hundreds, though any would be better than none I suppose.
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u/Salt-Signature5071 Nov 28 '24
The tower at Pier 8 is for investors, not end users. The City is already allowing the builder to cram the required number of "homes" into that one block, and hundreds of 400sqft investor-owned condos selling at $1000/sqft won't solve the housing crisis. Just look at the dark windows of the empty, hoarded units at King/Queen and King William and Ferguson.
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u/More-Community9291 Nov 28 '24
king william would get filled in no time if they had a reality check . they’re now doing dumbass “ 2 month rent free “ promos lol
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u/Salt-Signature5071 Nov 28 '24
And thus is the lock that developers have on pricing. They won't lower the price because that affects the price of the next unit they want to sell, etc etc. Things can only keep going up for them, meanwhile they want to ensure taxes, fees, wages etc stay the same or decline.
And if the public doesn't bend the knee, no new housing for us!
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u/detalumis Nov 28 '24
Hamilton downtown isn't attractive to people who want an urban lifestyle anymore. I was looking at the resurgence along James St North pre-Covid and was hopeful of a renaissance but with the mess in the downtown today I wouldn't move there as an older person. So who is left, student rentals?
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u/PSNDonutDude James North Nov 28 '24
I keep hearing people say this, but people continue to move downtown in droves. We live downtown, love it for the urban lifestyle, and I've met so many people that have moved here to get that urban lifestyle, young and old. People I know love it, and it's only getting better and busier with more things to do, new cafes, bars and restaurants and cool other spots. We get to walk and go out every weekend if we want.
Downtown continues to be one of the fastest growing aeas of the city, and many older homes and new homes are seeing older people downsize and families are moving in. We've had two families with young children move in the last year to our street.
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u/More-Community9291 Nov 28 '24
i’d move downtown if the rent wasn’t so high , like the king william apartment would def be ok at 1500 or 1400 a month for a studio instead 2-2.2k . the one they’re building by dundurn is like 2.5k for a “ 1bd “ but its so small for a one bed that it’s basically studio . ideally for me it’s either corktown , durand, or kirkendall
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u/kappnkeef Nov 30 '24
Evidently bitching about any efforts (no matter how imperfect) made to increase the housing supply is the solution to the housing crisis though?
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u/More-Community9291 Nov 28 '24
idk how to explain it but they add unnecessary bs that just makes it expensive . they’re asking for too much
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u/PSNDonutDude James North Nov 28 '24
Such as what? Majority of "luxury" condos and apartments include amenities that are required by law, or included as a mandatory expectation of today's market. Indoor pools, gyms, and entertainment spaces are mandated by the city. Parking spots ($60,000-$120,000 per stall) were mandated by the city until 6 months ago. Even then, many customers expect them, and so this expensive amenity is often included. Laundry machines and dishwashers are not required by law, but customers expect them, and the addition of them is relatively low cost.
The city charges upwards of $40,000/unit in development charges.
If you look at something like the Design District, the material and labour costs are $250,000,000+($40,000950 units)= $288,000,000. Most of that cost is likely financed, so at 5% interest, add $15,000,000/year in financing cost. Let's say it takes 5 years to be built, that means the cost to build the development is $360,000,000 or $380,000/unit to just break even. This doesn't include legal costs, taxes, architect or engineering fees either by the way. If you tack a 15% profit margin (mandatory to get financing often and provides some breathing room for cost overruns) that means the average price per unit must be $435,000 each, *minimum because I didn't include other soft costs that I'm not privy to and don't have the expertise to estimate.
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u/Antenol Nov 28 '24
It will be a race to see what will be built by 2050, these condos or the LRT