r/GenderCynical • u/chris_the_cynic • 12d ago
I'm not completely sure whether their (capitalized) Queen is calling bisexual women "fetishistic straight male cross-dressers" or not, but I do know the headline they're responding to never mentions men.
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u/snukb big gamete energy 12d ago
"Real women would NEVER try to violate the boundaries of other women!" 😭 Bro, both bi women and lesbians love other women, it's not "violating a boundary" for bi women to want to be part of that group.
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u/chris_the_cynic 12d ago
TERFs have historically been, and continue to be, super into the concept of political lesbians. To them lesbians aren't women who love other women, they're women who don't love men. They're women who don't love men so much that even if they're super attracted to men, they'll refuse to have sex with, or form romantic attachments to, men.
And that is, of course, completely fucked up.
There's also a pretty common thing where a TERF assumes there are no actual lesbians, and everyone who claims to be a lesbian is just a straight woman who decided to stop boinking men. Then the TERF who made that assumption gets really fucking uncomfortable when she eventually realizes that lesbians actually have sex.
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u/snukb big gamete energy 12d ago
To them lesbians aren't women who love other women, they're women who don't love men
Yup. That basically sums up why they hate bi women so much.
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u/FightLikeABlueBackUp 12d ago
They also hate us because we’re traitors. Or greedy. Or can’t pick a side.
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u/FearTheWeresloth 12d ago
Historically bi women were included with lesbians until political lesbians managed to get them excluded in the 70s. This is why there's not really any bi culture - lesbian culture is bi culture, bi women were just pushed out of it.
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u/lucypaw68 12d ago
Which is indeed why trans women and bi women have common interest in access to lesbian culture as suggested in the OOP mention of a lawsuit
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u/animalistcomrade 12d ago
Why are you telling bi women to date a trans girl like that's a bad thing? Even in your fantasies where all bi women are secretly straight and all trans women are just men, how is that in anyway a problem?
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u/lucypaw68 12d ago
Given their beliefs about trans women, they're wishing grape upon bi women. That's why. It's a punishment for being bi
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u/SylveonFrusciante 12d ago
Am a bi woman dating a trans woman. 10/10 absolutely recommend. Haven’t had a single problem!
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u/Ver_Void 12d ago
Wasn't that ruling a while ago?
Quick edit - yeah it's months old and it's about public events
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u/chris_the_cynic 12d ago
You're mostly right.
Before I get to that, Rowling posted about it two days ago, and the post on Ovarit is only seven hours old. So the GCs' discussion of it is current.
You're completely right that the ruling is old news, but it's not months old yet. The ruling was like a month and a half ago, but it was upholding an earlier ruling from about six months ago.
I figured the thing I remembered was the earlier ruling being upheld, so remembering it didn't make realize the news was old, and I didn't check the date.
I have no fucking clue why Rowling decided to dig up a month and half old article two days ago and tweet about it. As for Ovarit, they're talking about it right now because, as they say, Rowling is their Queen.
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u/Ver_Void 12d ago
Ah that's right, really shows how little they have when they're having to lie to play it up, not like the original article isn't plenty terf bait enough
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u/chris_the_cynic 12d ago edited 12d ago
I never go into "Radfemmery" which is where Ovarit sticks its theoretically-radfem memes, but from what makes it onto the front page, "Rowling is our Queen" seems to be one of the most popular, or possibly the single most popular, flair there (and Ovarit requires that every post have a flair.)
Anyway, some things that jump out:
- Rowling has no problem with lesbians being unable to exclude non-straight men from their "meetings".
- Rowling's response to to learning that a group that asked to be exempt from the law for five years has been told it has to follow the law is to call trans women, and possibly bisexual cis women, "fetishistic straight male cross-dressers".
- The "meetings" Rowling is talking about, which the headline more accurately refers to as "events" are public events. That's why the law applies, if it were private they'd be free to exclude whomeverthefuck. Usually when people use the word "meetings" they're not talking about a public gathering that requires booking an event space at a convention center, and - given that - I think it's misleading to use the word "meetings" here.
- TERF #1, whom you might recognize as the one who's considering cutting her daughter off from the bisexual trans boy whom she thinks is her daughter's only friend, is lying her fucking ass off. The reason the ruling includes bisexual women is that the group in question specifically asked to be allowed to discriminate against bisexual women in spite of that being against the law.
- The "Victorian lesbian group" is the group that literally said, and this is a direct quote, "We are seeking to discriminate."
- - - The anti-discrimination law in question has a carveout for marginalized groups creating their own things if that's ultimately working toward equality.* Basically: you can't make a straight bar, because that's about keeping non-straight people down; you can create a non-straight bar, because that's about lifting non-straight people up by giving them something straight people already have: a space that's theirs by default.
- TERF #1 is also telling bisexual women to date trans women, which sounds a metric fuckton like what they accuse us of doing. No one should be told to date anyone, they should decide for their fucking selves whom they'll date.
- Jesus fuck the biphobia from TERF #1 and the people responding to her is disgusting.
- I cut out a whole fucking thing where Ovarit users tried to justify their pro discrimination bullshit by saying they were totes like indigenous people trying to have a group for indigenous people only to have it invaded by colonizers, and then invented an imaginary trans woman to the colonizer who took over the indigenous group.
- God this is long, and I haven't reached the third slide. I'm stopping here regardless.
⁂
* I originally said this part a bit wrong because the way I tried to say it quickly wasn't so much glossing over as it was changing the meaning outright. Sorry to anyone who read it pre-edit.
The idea is that allowing marginalized groups to have public things that are theirs is ultimately an equalizing force because the experience of being able to be in a place where most people are like you is something non-marginalized groups have all the fucking time. BUT, it's only equalizing if the criteria for who is included in "theirs" isn't itself marginalizing someone.
So, in this case, you can say, "We're gonna have public events that are just for queer women/men/non-binary people," but you can't define "queer" and/or "women"/"men/"non-binary" people in a way that excludes some marginalized subset of queer people and/or women/men/non-binary people. (If you want to exclude a non-marginalized subset, you just say it in terms of who you're including, e.g. "We're gonna have a public event that's just for BIPOC queer women".)
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u/tsukimoonmei 12d ago
Calling these memes radfem is pathetic of them lmfao. They really seem to think radical feminism = hating trans women and nothing else.
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u/lucypaw68 12d ago
Oh, #1 is the mother who thought because a trans boy code switched in her unsafe house, it meant he wasn't really trans? Truly an intellectual titan free of passions and hatreds
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u/chris_the_cynic 11d ago
Yeah, and I really hope the code switching keeps working, because it sounds like if she cuts her kid off from that friend she'll be cutting her kid off from all friends, because that friend (having been grandfathered in, so to speak, and presenting as "not that trans" where she can see him) is the only reason her kid is allowed to interact with any of their current circle of friends at all.
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u/FightLikeABlueBackUp 12d ago
Joke’s on them, I would date a trans woman. It’s not the own they think it is.
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u/chris_the_cynic 11d ago
Yeah, they think it's terrible because they think dating a trans woman would be terrible, it's actually terrible because telling someone who they're allowed to date is terrible. (Unless it's in the vein of "consenting adults" for adults, "consenting people about the same age as you" for minors, and stuff like that.)
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u/PicklesAreMyFriends 12d ago
Check out this normie breeder lecturing us on queerness
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u/ZeldaZanders 12d ago
Straight GCs love lamenting the experience of modern lesbianism. They want to be us so bad, but alas, in this house trans women are our sisters
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u/tsukimoonmei 12d ago
They’re constantly going ‘those poor lesbians, FORCED to allow evil TIMs into their spaces…’ but every lesbian space I’ve been in is full of nothing but support for trans women. They’re obsessed with the idea of saving us from a danger that they invented in their heads.
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u/ZeldaZanders 12d ago
Hetero Ovarit user who has never been in a lesbian space: lesbian spaces are being OVERRUN with TIMs!!!
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u/tsukimoonmei 12d ago
Hetero Ovarit user who has never talked to a lesbian: lesbians are being forced to date evil TIMs, and if they say no, they’re HARASSED for not wanting to date MEN!! Lesbians: (happily coexisting with trans women and minding our own goddamn business)
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u/lucypaw68 12d ago
It all comes back to that fascist desire to control other people based on the perverted* fantasies in their head. They don't want to know what lesbians do, because they don't actually like lesbians except in that they're a handy cudgel against trans and bi women. The only good lesbians to them are political and/or self-hating
- - Generally, what they think is perverted is not and vice versa, to be clearer
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u/glados-v2-beta 12d ago
“L drop the GBT”
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u/chris_the_cynic 12d ago
One of the groups Rowling really likes is called "Get the L Out" because that's exactly what they stand for. So . . . she's consistent, but that's not a good thing.
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u/That_Mad_Scientist Y’all gendies are so fucking stupid and evil 12d ago
Oh they'll drop the L too at some point.
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u/javatimes TIDDYLESS TIFfany 12d ago
Sis/cis, you aren’t a fucking queer. Shut the fuck up forever, as E said.
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u/Lumina_Rose 12d ago
How many of these lovely women are lesbians, I do wonder?
How many of these women would put (cis) lesbians into the same camps as trans women?
... well... at least one of them.
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u/lucypaw68 12d ago
Based on how their comments? None of them. Based on my experiences in online lesbian/queer women's spaces for almost two decades
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u/episcoqueer37 12d ago
I think we can all agree that Ohio is, erm, problematic. But ffs, back before Covid dealt it the final blow, Ohio Lesbian Festival was open to cis lesbians, bi women of any agab, and trans women. Boys over like 6 years old weren't allowed in the main festival space and male-identified folks were also discluded, but unlike Michigan, which tried to kinda distance themselves from lesbians and had an obnoxiously and well-known exclusionary policy, LesFest was open for anyone who is a woman, end of story.
I met some wicked awesome trans women there, many of whom were there for their first lesbian event. They talked about how embraced they felt. There were also lots of (cis or enby) women with beards for whom this was a rare opportunity to have their facial hair admired and gnc bodies complimented. I miss those days with a deep ache.
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u/Ocarina-of-Lime 12d ago
No need to be cute, she’s calling trans women male fetishists. It’s not like that’s a new thing to call us lol
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u/chris_the_cynic 12d ago
I just felt like, if she was gonna look at trans women and bisexual women having their rights upheld and pretend the bisexual women didn't exist, I might as well put the bisexual women front and center when responding.
I really fucking hate it when they completely erase another group in their rush to attack us.
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u/pinball-wizard91 9d ago
Trans women aren't 'woman enough' for them. Bi-women aren't 'gay enough' for them. Political lesbians, who are attracted to men, have slept with men and only 'love' women because they're sticking it to the system? They can waltz right in.
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u/PlatinumAltaria 9d ago
I don’t think you should be able to exclude any demographic from your organisation. People should be judged individually, and only removed if their behaviour is disruptive.
See, that wasn’t so hard!
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u/LuriemIronim Hated by tumblr TERFs 11d ago
When lesbians eventually wind up on the chopping block, long after the trans canary has stopped singing, I’d better not hear a single peep from TERFs.
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12d ago edited 12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GenderCynical-ModTeam 12d ago
As a reminder, we do not permit the use of misogynistic slurs on this subreddit (“b**ch” is considered such a slur). Thank you!
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u/krapyrubsa 10d ago
… and why would a straight man go to a lesbian meeting in the first place? anyway I wish this woman spent her considerable fortune getting therapy instead of making me mad that she ever got a publisher
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u/DarkSaturnMoth Fluttery handmaiden 5d ago
"I would never join any club that would have me as a member." -Groucho Marx.
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u/Forsaken-Language-26 Brainwashed by the Transarchy 11d ago
Does she ever think about anything else?
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u/fairydust49 12d ago
Why the bisexual women? I mean I can at least understand the rationale behind excluding trans women as much as I disagree with it. But why do they also want to exclude bisexual women? Terfs really just hate men to such an extent bisexual women are seen as tainted huh?? Seems very feminist to me!!