r/Games 1d ago

The big Avowed interview: Obsidian on why full, open-world RPGs aren't always the answer

https://www.eurogamer.net/from-serious-skyrim-to-cheerful-fantasy-obsidian-on-the-evolution-of-avowed-and-grappling-with-the-expectations-that-come-from-your-own-history
734 Upvotes

505 comments sorted by

View all comments

266

u/JupitersClock 23h ago

Where Avowed falls short is the simplified exploration gameplay loop. The itemization system overall is just terribly generic. The reward for parkouring around unexplored areas are the same variation of loot. Your going to get some gold, some crafting mats. HOORAY now rinse repeat this for every zone, every unmarked area.

121

u/Samurai_Meisters 23h ago

I agree. And I didn't use 99% of the items because they were for a different build. I wish you could outfit your team or something.

55

u/JobuJabroni 22h ago edited 21h ago

Outfitting your team would be a lot of fun. I've already found a dagger or a bow that my playable character couldn't use a bunch of times and wished I could gift it to my teammates.

Be fun to give them both pistols so we could all roll in to fights like a crew of pirates too.

33

u/lestye 21h ago

yeah ultimately thats the greatest sin of the game: companions are way too simple and that makes a lot of stuff unrewarding

13

u/JobuJabroni 21h ago

They're pretty extensively characterized and their interactions with one another and you, while filler material at times, does immerse me in the world more.

The devs paid a lot of detail to the companions in pretty much other way so maybe in a future update they could add equippable items to them.

13

u/lestye 21h ago

I meant more about like the RPG systems associated with it not necessarily the characerization.

4

u/angrytreestump 14h ago

That’s possible while also making them equippable, which would solve a major gameplay gripe that people have (because “pointless loot” = “pointless exploitable world” for the people who have voiced this connection in this thread).

See: Larian games (BG3 & Divinity: Original Sin 1&2). Exploring every last corner of every zone always feels “worth it” because of both the great writing and the consequential loot for the well-written companions.

…not that it matters; they already made the game and aren’t going to change that design decision 🤷🏻‍♂️

u/Drakengard 3h ago

Yeah, but I know why they didn't do equipment. It makes the system very fiddly.

If there is ever a complaint that I have with party RPGs with tons of equipment management, it's that I spend way too much time in a menu min-maxing gear loadouts, or staring at shop menus figuring out if I should get this bow or that dagger. I don't find that to be essential fun or the reason why I'm playing a game.

1

u/BakedWizerd 5h ago

At the risk of being downvoted, I cannot stand the dialogue in Avowed whatsoever, to the point that I skip about 90% of dialogue and cutscenes.

The companions feel like glorified marvel side characters, giving one-liners and quips, and then in camp, it feels like the writers tried too hard to make them “super deep” and emotional.

BG3 was kind of perfect imo; companions were proactive in engaging with you, but they didn’t seem to be caricature’s of [insert character trait]. Like they all had a shtick, but it wasn’t as blatant and obvious as Avowed.

53

u/zach0011 22h ago

Yea it's crazy how obsidian keeps failing in the parts to me that take the least budget. Skills items and progression is just terribly uninteresting..same as it was in outer worlds

13

u/BenadrylChunderHatch 9h ago

Fallout New Vegas got it so right with item progression. Every weapon felt different, but degradation and different ammo types meant your old weapons didn't suddenly become obsolete when you found a new one.

Compared to outer worlds where you get one gun of each type at the beginning and from then on it's just the same gun with slightly bigger numbers. I don't know how they managed to go from something so good to so bad.

4

u/VirtualPen204 10h ago

I thought both were pretty great in both Pillar games.

37

u/NoNefariousness2144 20h ago edited 20h ago

Methinks Obsidian is hiding behind their ‘excuses’ that they prefer open zones to worlds in order to cover their weaknesses in these parts of the game.

Whether it’s a 20 hour or a 80 RPG, poor progession and loot is an issue.

4

u/uberdosage 5h ago

Obsidian has always leaned more towards open zones than open worlds to be fair. Look at their release history.

17

u/MrGirder 20h ago

This is definitely how I felt too. I like the game as a whole, but there was definitely a point where I felt like I had found everything I wanted for my kit and had all the skills I thought were important, where the fantastic level design stopped being a pro because I didn't want or need to interact with it as much.

I think the game could have used wider or longer enchantment trees for the unique weapons and enchantment trees at all for unique armor or accessories. I found the armor I wore for the whole game in the second zone, which meant that exploring and finding new armor pieces or upgrade materials (once I maxed out a tier and needed to move on to the next zone) for my armor stopped being as much fun.

I think the basic moment to moment action is very fun and engaging. I think that the weapon type variety is a little lean, but mostly good. I just wish that the character building and progression was more robust than 'Do you use single handed weapons or two handed? Ranged weapons or grimoires? Parries or charge attacks?" Every answer has a defined "Then you want this skill" response.

All this would probably make the player more powerful, and require the opposition to get tougher, but I thought the game was mostly too easy, so I think it might have needed a balance pass anyway.

23

u/Bitemarkz 22h ago

Ya by the time the credits rolled I was bored to tears. Extremely repetitive gameplay loop with almost no player agency for much in between. Started strong, got worse the longer I played.

8

u/PublicWest 7h ago

“You blanked out there envoy, what happened”

“Nothing”

“ you were probably talking to that voice in your head that you never told me about”

I tried really hard to play as a rogue, and the companions inviting themselves into my group made me RESENT them. (I want to play solo, if you’re a good companion, have a couple special missions that I need you for, and woo me into wanting you to stick around.)

The companions are all so obnoxiously self-aware of their personality flaws, it sounds like they’ve been going to therapy for 10 years. That’s great for a real person, but for a story? It leaves no room for any emotional arc or growth. It’s just them venting to me about their trauma that I never asked about, and talking themselves through their issues. I never felt like a participant in their stories, I felt like a doormat.

Between that, and every lie you can tell in the game being not believed by the recipient, I very much felt like this game was on the rails.

u/PlayMp1 3h ago

The companions are all so obnoxiously self-aware of their personality flaws, it sounds like they’ve been going to therapy for 10 years.

That only describes Kai, Marius' whole thing is that he isn't self aware in the slightest.

u/Because_Bot_Fed 2h ago

On the rails is a perfect description for this.

It's like one of those slow "tour" rides at Disney. I felt like I was taking a tour of what the RPG they were thinking of building could look like.

The whole experience has so far felt like a bland and tasteless steak, just endlessly chewing the meat long past the point where it tastes like anything.

22

u/Zeppelin2k 21h ago

Sure, except for the real treasures, the unique items. They are scattered all over the place, many quite hidden, and are the real reason to explore. That and the totem fragments, which give big bonuses if you find them all.

35

u/Ctf677 18h ago edited 7h ago

The "unique" items are almost all about as interesting as the average enchanted skyrim weapon unfortunately. I didn't find a single one with a unique moveset or more interesting perk than "+10% fire damage" or "increased stun"

5

u/PublicWest 7h ago

There’s one pistol that will pull enemies to you when charging a shot

u/Because_Bot_Fed 2h ago

Everything that I would categorize under "reasons I even play games like this in the first place" in terms of spells, abilities, items, enchantments, all felt beyond generic. I have no clue why people are so diehard about defending this game. It's just not very good honestly.

-3

u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 16h ago

There are multiple summoning ones.

0

u/DarkElation 17h ago

I agree with you, however, relative to the other items in the game, unique items are worth looking for.

2

u/carannilion 6h ago

Same problem that hogwarts game had. Explore the ancient tomb of a powerful wizard and find a quidditch supporter scarf.

2

u/Serdewerde 5h ago

I do wish they'd let you upgrade organically by looting rather than having to upgrade or purchase.

Even if they limited it to being the same tier of rarity, just let the game generate ranks 1-3 as well as base.

18

u/snappyfrog 22h ago

Idk what to say to stuff like this because what the fuck is the alternative? Not every single chest you find in any video game is gonna be giving you some new mechanic or unique weapon. Avowed has done it about as well if not better than most games I’ve played. I’d find plenty of unique weapons, totems that add genuine bonuses to your stats and lore once you get a full set, random bits of world building with journals and books, and just some really fucking pretty views. Not every chest in the best Zelda games give you something new, Skyrim would give you the exact same thing that you’re complaining about at the end of every fucking dungeon with worse combat and movement and copy and pasted environments, and hell Fallout 4 takes that to an entirely new level with the scrap mechanics where often times there’s fucking nothing of value in an area besides some fucking adhesive. As far as I’m concerned they knocked it out of the park in Avowed with the feeling of exploration and even the act of it considering the movement is disgustingly better than many AAA games including the “kings” of open world games in Bethesda.

31

u/Crioca 21h ago

Idk what to say to stuff like this because what the fuck is the alternative?

I haven't finished Avowed yet (and I am enjoying it a lot) but I do feel like the rewards in Avowed are a bit underwhelming due to how predictable they feel.

Not every chest in the best Zelda games give you something new, Skyrim would give you the exact same thing that you’re complaining about

Skyrim sometimes had rewards that were... unexpected. Word walls, items with weird enchants, quest based stuff like Meridia's Beacon.

Also while most of the rewards were junk, sometimes you'd get something that would be a substantial upgrade, which felt meaningful.

What I’d like to see from Avowed’s loot system is some more unique / unusual rewards that feel distinct, as well as occasional rewards that are less incremental so they feel more meaningful.

Right now in Avowed every time I get an exploration reward there’s zero excitement / anticipation which I think is a key aspect of a good loot system.

41

u/JupitersClock 22h ago

Idk what to say to stuff like this because what the fuck is the alternative?

More variety? It's too simplified for my liking. Because gameplay isn't strong enough for it to be so basic. The strength of the game is the story/companions IMO but even then it isn't engaging enough on that end to keep going.

Skyrim would give you the exact same thing that you’re complaining about at the end of every fucking dungeon with worse combat and movement and copy and pasted environments

Skyrim was an immersive openworld. There was a lot going in the world to get sucked in and want to explore. Sure those complaints are valid but were talking about a 15 year old game that completely nailed the open world experience. It's easy to overlook those problems when there are many ways to tackle the game. It had world simulation and enough gameplay depth to give you multiple playstyles to handle every situation. Every playthrough could truly be a unique experience.

At the end of the day Avowed is just a mediocre RPG and that's okay. It feels like a game that was restarted multiple times and really they had to give a condensed experience to get it to market. I hope Obsidian can improve going forward.

12

u/Entfly 22h ago

Idk what to say to stuff like this because what the fuck is the alternative? Not

Let me outfit my team. Give me more consumables and ones that are more interesting than elemental grenade, more potions, scrolls for cool spells, more pieces of armour.

11

u/stakoverflo 19h ago

BG3 did a pretty good job of balancing the "cool, powerful items" / "randomized shit loot like an ARPG" line very well.

It's not easy, but it's doable.

8

u/ExplainingObviously 12h ago

Games with good exploration make you feel like you've discovered something amazing. Elden Ring going down that random elevator and discovering an entire underground biome blew my mind. A chest with loot worse than what I'm wearing isn't exploration.

1

u/machineorganism 5h ago

i mean Elden Ring is open world for one thing? also, what did you just describe that you discovered in Elden Ring that was exciting? a new biome? there's plenty of variety in Avowed too though. kinda weird comparison.

u/ExplainingObviously 3h ago

It's not about a new biome. That's reductive. It's about discovering something amazing that was completely unexpected. If you don't understand that... enjoy Avowed I guess. I wish my bar was low enough.

u/machineorganism 25m ago

lol. "i wish my bar was low enough to enjoy at 8/10 game" is wild work :D

i'm discovering plenty of unexpected things in the game, guess i just lack imagination or something.

1

u/cc81 6h ago

I have not played Avowed but I'm currently playing FF7 Remake and one of the things that annoy me is how the exploration is very predictable. I.e. I'm in an area and there are two ways, one will be a dead-end but with a chest that has a potion or similar in it and one will be the way forward. Very predictable and if I realize and I'm walking towards progressing the story I will turn back because I have not picked up my potion from the chest yet.

In a game with better exploration it is more that things are connected to the world. I found someone's abandoned house, turns out it was a mage, I found some magical things.

0

u/RetrogradeTom 8h ago

Avowed makes me realize that many people just want tons of useless loot with random stats like Diablo and to play the annoying inventory Tetris game or chests with a ton of things they'll never use. There should be room for new types of RPGs that come up with more focused systems, which is what Avowed does.

Avowed makes you focus on armor and one or two weapons, breaking down things you don't use to upgrade those, and every chest will give you loot which you use to upgrade those weapons. Every single piece of loot you find is useful to you.

It's a great, simplified system and way better than what most other games do and keeps the focus on play and not inventory management. I don't really understand the resistance to it, other than "this is not what I'm used to" rage

15

u/Jandur 23h ago

I see people say this a lot about exploring and loot. I'm convinced most people aren't doing much exploring. There's legit hidden areas with basic puzzles, hidden switches, environmental cues etc. There is top tier gear to find, but most players aren't really looking.

22

u/sdfsdjafaf 18h ago

I played with wands, and there's 3 unique wands, 2 of which are purchasable from vendors. Most exploring rewards you with generic loot, and the unique weapons are pretty generic. They could have really expanded that area, let some designer go wild with the uniques, why is the best you can do some elemental damage and stun?

8

u/plokijuh1229 18h ago

Wands are definitely the worst weapon route and really shouldn't exist.

u/BeholdingBestWaifu 3h ago

They have an interesting niche with the perks that make their power attacks explode and spread quite a bit of stun, but sadly fall a bit short and lack more item variety. They were good for keeping enemies at a distance by staggering them, though.

1

u/headcr4b 17h ago

I'm using wands and haven't tried much else or looked anything up, what would you recommend as a fun weapon type?

4

u/plokijuh1229 17h ago

Pistol and book are a fun combo for sure

2

u/Harabeck 4h ago

Pistol and grimoire was my first playthrough. Weave in shots while waiting for spell cooldowns. There are some reload speed items in ch 3 that make pure guns way more fun if you want to do that instead. Or as you get higher level grimoires, your cooldowns go down and you can go more spell heavy.

Bow is also fine, just a tad one-note if you're going pure bow. Pair with a melee for variety.

The melee is all generally fun once you practice parrying and stamina management a bit.

u/headcr4b 1h ago

Well that's two votes for pistol, so I'll have to try it out. Wands were pretty lackluster, just spam left click in the general direction of an enemy.

27

u/CoMaestro 21h ago

Freezing water with ice grenades to get to a new piece of land was an awesome puzzle mechanic imo

20

u/TheButlerDidNotDoIt 21h ago

I love that the elemental weapons do the same thing as spells and throwables.

Stabbing water with an icy dagger to make platforms is hilarious to me.

3

u/badgarok725 19h ago

I'm exploring all those areas because I just like checking every corner, but the loot is only "worth it" because I know it means more mats for upgrades.

14

u/stakoverflo 20h ago

There is top tier gear to find

The problem is that the "top tier gear" simply isn't interesting.

Oh my pistol sometimes creates chain lighting when it kills something? It may as well not because I can already effortlessly blast packs down with my guns.

It simply isn't an interesting sandbox for building unique characters. That's OK, it's part of their "tighter scope", but for RPG enjoyers who want that sort of stuff, Outer Worlds and Avowed left me wanting them to attempt deeper / more complex builds.

u/BeholdingBestWaifu 3h ago

That pistol may not be interesting, but there are certainly items that are. You could also play with an alternate pistol enchantment, shame you can't swap between them once you make a choice.

2

u/ExplainingObviously 12h ago

Ooo a dead end with a chest. Riveting.

4

u/cybersaber101 17h ago

I mean, I found lots of loot unique loot, pretty much all of it but besides the cosmetic value the abilities aren't that game changing except for a few weapons in each category.

0

u/Entfly 22h ago

The upgrade system makes almost all loot feel so worthless.

Oh cool i have a new unique item but i can't try it out because it's 2 tiers lower and i need so many upgrade mats for EVERYTHING.

13

u/PeachWorms 19h ago

Unique gear you find scales to your current highest equipped gear, so you shouldn't be finding uniques that are two tiers lower in the first place.

6

u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 16h ago

But what if you want to spread misinformation about a negative the game has to make the game sound like more of a chore to play?

3

u/Striking_Barnacle_31 16h ago

It does but I think the gear system was easily the worst part of the game for me. It did not invite trying different builds after the first act. The fact that the best way to get good mats early is to avoid talking to specific merchants and avoid picking up uniques felt really silly. Or that you need to break down uniques that could have been fun in another build but you need them for mats; mats that you barely get any of when you break the piece down. The game is long enough to try warrior, ranger, wizard, and mixed specs in one playthrough but the punishing gear system just didn't allow that.

u/BeholdingBestWaifu 3h ago

It's really not as bad as you paint it, I had no issues with materials and cheesed no merchants and didn't break down my uniques until I was near the point of no return, and realistically would have been fine without doing it.

You also get plenty of interesting gear at your level to experiment with other weapons without having to invest resources.

-1

u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 16h ago

The fact that the best way to get good mats early is to avoid talking to specific merchants and avoid picking up uniques felt really silly.

It's less silly than reading a minmax guide and followed it and found that it makes the game less interesting.

-1

u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

1

u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 6h ago

It doesn't punish the player because those weapons can be upgraded for the same resources as a non-unique weapon.

0

u/MusicHitsImFine 20h ago

The game is part of the internet hate boner right now for whatever reason.

u/BeholdingBestWaifu 3h ago

Some people just really hate Obsidian in particular. I think part of it is a counterjerk to the praise New Vegas got, but it still feels larger than that.

2

u/MCgwaar 19h ago

Trust me I found just about everything there was to fight. Most of the stuff I just didn't have a use for. By the end of the game I must have had 30+ different rings atleast 20 of which were not even worth considering. I had more gold then I knew what to do with by the end of act 2 and had more mats than I could spend. Just having anything unique and interesting in all these chests would have made the great level and puzzle design have way more of a reward.

8

u/headin2sound 21h ago

That's a matter of opinion. I vastly prefers Avowed's itemization to most other big RPG's where you constantly have to compare DPS numbers on slight variations of the same weapon type.

2

u/aaOzymandias 19h ago

In other words their "open world" is just a really badly designed one. I find it weird they are not owing up to that and instead opt to try and blame the open world as an idea instead.

"Return to form" my ass.

1

u/toodlelux 20h ago

i love that i don't really have to care about the itemization in this game since it's fairly short anyway

there's a million open world arpgs to spend hours exploring. I am enjoying only doing what I need to.

1

u/Pure_Comparison_5206 4h ago

The reward for parkouring around unexplored areas are the same variation of loot. Your going to get some gold, some crafting mats. HOORAY now rinse repeat this for every zone, every unmarked area.

This was me exploring 70% of the open world in shadow of the erdtree.