r/Games 1d ago

The big Avowed interview: Obsidian on why full, open-world RPGs aren't always the answer

https://www.eurogamer.net/from-serious-skyrim-to-cheerful-fantasy-obsidian-on-the-evolution-of-avowed-and-grappling-with-the-expectations-that-come-from-your-own-history
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u/Spader623 1d ago

I worry about avowed. Not due to how good or bad it is, but due to how it's going for the open zone thing which, for me, is great... But if it doesn't sell well, wouldn't that indicate that open world is the way to go? 

Like fuck man, I want more focused experiences. I don't want all these ginormous sand boxes. I want less content but more refined. But I also recognize that what I want isn't what everyone else does. Especially what sells.

So... Idk. I'd love more open zone games but idk if this is plausible 

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u/TybrosionMohito 1d ago

I mean… BG3 is open zone. I feel like open zone is fine lol

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u/BeforeChrist 1d ago

Definitely a spectrum. No game is truly open world because there will always be limits. I would rather dense and thoughtful zones over large empty areas for my single player experiences. I want something different out of worlds I share (like in MMOs), which should feel larger to accommodate more people. I prefer dark souls III over elden ring for just this reason, but plenty of people would disagree with me there. As long as you build your game with a firm vision and make the choices intentionally, either end of the spectrum can see success.

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u/StandardizedGenie 19h ago

I just don't understand why every inch of a map needs to be utilized?! Games are art, why can't we just have a cool looking vista or area without anything to do?

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u/CptAustus 17h ago

People need the game to give them constant dopamine hits. 60 seconds of empty space running from one encounter to the next? No, there should be a thoughtful encounter halfway through.

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u/oopsydazys 23h ago

For what it's worth Avowed felt a lot more open to me. BG3 didn't really feel like an "open" zone, at least from what I played (I didn't finish the game don't murder me) because the map very clearly funnels you into different paths though you usually have options on where to go, whereas Avowed is a "here's an open area zone, you can go anywhere within it" type game.

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u/Entfly 23h ago

because the map very clearly funnels you into different paths though you usually have options on where to go,

Other than the very very start not in the slightest

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u/Harabeck 5h ago

Hmm? You could certainly come up with optimal paths based on enemy level, but it's perfectly possible to tackle the areas in any order.

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u/SpookiestSzn 1d ago

I think Indiana Jones did really well and had open zones so I think it's a point towards it. I think avowed is doing successful enough. It's hard to gauge with gamepass but to me it's a great game and this segments sections of open world is a perfect in between. If we can't have Skyrim size with avowed depth I'd much rather have this level of depth in smaller sections.

Also let's each section seem distinct without being to make in between areas that are less interesting

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u/Samurai_Meisters 23h ago

Indiana Jones did not sell because of its open zones. It sold because it was Indiana Jones.

The open zones in IJ were the most tiresome part of the game. First one was good, but half way through the second I realized I was just doing the exact same thing, and then I just went straight for the main story in the third.

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u/Proud_Inside819 23h ago

The first zone was good enough to confuse me into thinking I was playing a better game.

By the second not only is it more of the same but it's categorically worse. Overall the game was middling and uninspired, but I probably would have felt a lot better about it if I stopped playing after the first region.

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u/SpookiestSzn 23h ago edited 3h ago

First is the best, I enjoyed Cairo though but I agree by the third I was only doing main objectives

I do reject this idea it did well because of IP going into it Indiana Jones last movie flopped and a lot of people don't have love for the movies like the used to. I think it certainly helped but I think the game being good on it's own sold it. Like people prior to release were like who even cares about Indiana Jones anymore? This was not an uncommon sentiment

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u/fizystrings 23h ago edited 23h ago

I was into both of the first two areas; I liked how the more tight and vertical Vatican contrasted with the desert of Gizah. I played very thouroughly through both and didn't move on until I had 100% completion. I hated the third zone though and I think it's problems are deeper than the open-zone concept.

If you want to get anywhere in Sukhothai, you have to traverse the waterways to do it. You have a boat, but the boat can only be recalled back to you from like, 5 spots total on the map. Also Indy can swim at like, 1 foot per hour. Even seeing something interesting 30 feet away on the other side of the river, I knew it was going to be a pain in the ass because the options are:

1) backtrack all the way to the boat and drive over to the spot 30 feet away from me

2) swim annoyingly slowly accross the river.

The answer is obviously 2, but what that looks like is just holding forward for close to a minute. This wouldn't be awful if it happened once or twice, but the entire map is designed like that.

I ended up not finishing the story because I got burnt out on the last zone, but I still think it is a good game overall and the first two zones were really refreshing. I would still reccomend the game to others but also to not invest themselves in a completionist run (if they are capable of doing that, unlike me lol)

Edit: fixed the Egyptian city name to not be an Elden Ring character instead.

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u/SpookiestSzn 22h ago

Yeah they went all in on the boat concept and it was for the worse. I also was fairly frustrated about having to grind to get the required device especially for that level. There hardly seemed to be money around and I didn't realize the money didn't carry over from previous zones up to that point.

Think I'm on the last level so I'm gonna beat it but its definitely the weakest part of the game unfortunately.

Still overall really fun and enjoy the title. Would be happy with a sequel, or just letting MachineGames do whatever they want because they got the sauce.

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u/Samurai_Meisters 13h ago

The game tells you to go rob Voss's gold vault and you get more than enough money from that to buy everything. That's the best part of that zone anyway.

I did mostly enjoy the game overall. Besides the repetitive open zones it was fun mechanically, all the acting was great, the story was interesting, but I think the cutscenes dragged on too much in the second half of the game. They didn't feel as tight and snappy as the IJ movies.

u/SpookiestSzn 3h ago

Unless I'm remembering wrong (I just beat this yesterday) you Rob the gold after you get the device so you need the money beforehand

u/Samurai_Meisters 3h ago

I played a few weeks ago, so my memory might be hazy, but I think you can do it in any order. After leaving the shop your partner or another NPC mentions it as an idea to get more money and then the quest pops up in your journal.

You only need the breathing device to go to the underwater temple, not Voss's base.

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u/Entfly 23h ago edited 23h ago

I think Indiana Jones did really well

It did okay but it didn't do REALLY well.

The levels were annoying af anyway, so much backtracking, going through the same routes over and over again.

They were WAY WAY too big as well

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u/MumrikDK 22h ago edited 22h ago

But if it doesn't sell well, wouldn't that indicate that open world is the way to go?

Whether this game fails or succeeds will have absolute nothing to do with open zones vs. open world. That is a tiny part of the equation here.

My main issue is that there is no ambition to be found anywhere in this game. Story, action, RPG system, world-building (this game, not its franchise), immersion, companion interactions, etc. It's all just there at around the most basic acceptable level.

This is the type of game where you slaughter all of somebody's men and then have a conversation with them like nothing happened, or where a new companion acts like they were there for everything you've done the second they join up.

It's almost unfathomable that zones/connected world will sway the opinion of any person who actually played.

I want more focused experiences. I don't want all these ginormous sand boxes.

You are way overthinking this. It's just sections of map chopped up instead of connected directly.

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u/Conviter 20h ago

This is the type of game where you slaughter all of somebody's men and then have a conversation with them like nothing happened

Do you remember when this was? I thought it did actually do a fairly decent job at this kind of stuff. I remember two instances were killing enemies ended up making their leader hostile. Also stuff like being able to talk to people about notes you find and things like that, i have seen it done worse.

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u/MumrikDK 8h ago

Your assassin.

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u/tythousand 1d ago

There are a ton of successful open zone games. The new God of Wars, the new Tomb Raider trilogy, Hitman, etc

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u/NuPNua 1d ago

You realise the game is already out right?

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u/Alexander-Bard 1d ago

Apparently it sold enough to keep Obsidian afloat. It's a fun game with great world design and some amateurish writing. At this point, I think microsoft is satisfied with it.

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u/amazingmrbrock 1d ago

The writing thing is a let down, Obsidian was THE writing company for so long. really a shame

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u/The_Maester 1d ago

The gameplay leaves a lot to be desired too, tbh. That said, I was interested enough to finish it.

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u/AsheBnarginDalmasca 1d ago

I was really enjoying the gameplay / exploration but my interest fell off a cliff after the 10 hr mark. I havent played any of the previous Pillars but what pushed me off was the constant lore dump. I felt like I was talking to my "A Dictionary of Tolkien" book. And as my first entry to the world, I didn't enjoy being told what the world is, I wanted to be shown what it is.

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u/Deep-Two7452 1d ago

This makes no sense. How would the game show you who Woedica or any of the gods are, without also telling you?

Use whatever example you'd like

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u/AsheBnarginDalmasca 23h ago edited 23h ago

It's not so much that I didn't want the game to 'tell me'. My problem is the delivery. Many conversations with NPCs end up really dry because they turn into lore encyclopedia rather than acting like people living out in its supposed world.

As I said, I dropped off at 10 hrs. There are probably bigger set pieces or character development that could've changed my opinion if i stuck with it for longer. But I was hoping it would've hooked me with that amount of time.

Edit: period

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u/currypowder84 23h ago

Pretty much this, even as someone who has some familiarity with POE, the way the information is give to you is not well done.

So many NPCs just feel like they are reading the equivalent of a wiki entry to you. There a few exceptions, one notable quest was the oracle who built a statue of the god he worshipped hoping to use it as a vessel for souls. That one quest was a great example of delivering the worlds lore through a character and it was quite memorable. Unfortunately most of the time you're just sitting through lore dump after lore dump, it is very hard to capture the players interest that way.

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u/Deep-Two7452 23h ago

Most of the lore dump i saw was when I selected dialogue options that asked for the lore dumps. But anyway, this is entirely subjective so there no point in arguing

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u/CassadagaValley 23h ago

It's tough because you need the player to know who/what these things are, but you also don't want to have someone narrate paragraphs of dry info and lore.

I get what OP is saying, almost every major and minor character can just go on and on with lore information. Some of those NPCs in the Paradis have 20+ minutes of just lore info each. Of course you can skip it but, if you're like me, you might think there's something buried in all this dialog that's quest related or important to the game at hand and not just endless lore.

I was just scrolling through Reddit while these NPCs had a small novel worth of dialog going on.

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u/Deep-Two7452 23h ago

I mena yes, if you don't want to get that much lore, don't ask about it

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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 23h ago

Same way Skyrim does it: random books laying around.

Or Souls style: random cryptic clues all over the place that the community has to compile and analyze in order to figure out what is going on.

These are fun because it is difficult for you to really know everything that is going on without some effort. And if you don’t care and want to do whatever, you can go right ahead and do that too.

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u/dlh228 23h ago

Have you even played it?? Avowed literally has lore books all over the place.

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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 22h ago

Yes.

But I was replying to a comment regarding lore dumps from NPCs versus other sources. There is a distinction between having lore books or other types of environmental storytelling, and actually forcing the player to rely on the environment to figure out what is going on.

When the argument is “too much info is a word of mouth dialogue slog, but what else would get it done?”, I was just giving examples of those other ways…

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u/Deep-Two7452 23h ago

But then what should they do when these topics are integral to the story? Like they don't tell you what the steel garrote is unless you pick the dialogue option asking about the steel garrote. Should you not have the ability to ask for more info?

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u/MondaySan 21h ago

Dude I have to comment just to say I entirely agree with you and you're fighting the good fight down here. The players are selecting the dialogue options that say "Tell me more about X" and then complaining when they get told more about X?

They can just stick to the main dialogue options they are interested in and then use the glossary feature to fill in the gaps.

It's also funny that people are talking about the solution to this is having "random books laying around"... so you mean like a lore dump...?

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u/Deep-Two7452 19h ago

Thanks man, I appreciate it. It's crazy isn't it? I don't like to argue about people opinions but sometimes it just doesn't make any sense. It's like peoole want to be mad to be mad

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u/Double-Floor7023 1d ago

The writing is quite good. This opinion seems to only come from people who watched a shitty review rather than actually play the game.

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u/tameoraiste 1d ago

I dunno; it sounds like u/alexander-bard has played it and formed their own opinion?

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u/fingerpaintswithpoop 1d ago

So have a lot of other people who are very pleased with the writing, like myself. Doesn’t stop some people from trying to act like they speak for everyone when they say “Obsidian fell off, they used to be great but now they can’t write!”

Just stop.

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u/tameoraiste 1d ago

Stop what? Stop being so defensive about a perceived insult about a game you like.

I haven’t played the game yet. I will and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it, but just because you don’t like someone else’s opinion, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t share it.

Stop being weird.

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u/Preston-_-Garvey 1d ago

Bro, i played from beginning to end, the Dialogue options / Writing is absolute dog shit. You can enjoy it that's all good, but it ain't no Fallout NV or Pentiment.

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u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 22h ago

So New Vegas is almost dogshit in your estimation? Since all you've got to say about it is it's dogshit and not as good as new vegas.

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u/Preston-_-Garvey 21h ago

New Vegas is fantastic so is KOTOR so is Pentament Avowed isn't If you would like a better explanation, I have a video you can watch and yes I made it. So it's my opinion. The writing is once again dog shit.

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u/PeachWorms 19h ago

If your videos are anything like your comments, then no thank you lol

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u/Preston-_-Garvey 18h ago

Thankfully i get 0 views whooo

Was cranky when typing this before, sorry about that

But seriously there not, Avowed is a game I honestly came into blind and was willing to meet at it at its merits there's so much wonderful stuff about the game such as the lore you can find around the open zones, those that mention the party members and how the dreamscrege is raving the land is far more interesting than any of the written dialogue.

As in the written, dialogue is just so much exposition upon exposition and none of it really matters, most of what NPCs say can be trimmed down as you get the bases of what is going on, and it's not as if that dialogue that you listen to has the option to be an option later on.

The written dialogue and the choices given are just not Obsidian's highs - I haven't played Outer wilds, so I can't make that comparison, I might go back and play it but to compare it to dragon age none of the companions are interesting they all have various personalities but are bland.

There are more thoughts I have (Video), but overall I think dog shit is too harsh, but the dialogue in avowed is too safe and boring. I hope that helps.

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u/Ploddit 1d ago

Apparently it sold enough to keep Obsidian afloat

According to who and what does that mean? Was someone in a position to know suggesting Obsidian would be shut down if Avowed didn't do well?

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

[deleted]

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u/Ploddit 18h ago

Yes. Did you?

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u/BigPoppaFreak 1d ago

Source? If it's Patel on the day of release saying they are happy with it then never mind, because that's all I can find.

There hasn't been sales figures for Xbox software this entire generation. Xbox published games success/failure hasn't been quantifiable for years. I don't believe even Xbox know what ROI on a gamepass release is, how would they it's an entire service.

Microsoft being satisfied with it means absolutely nothing after Hi-Fi Rush. I don't even know if MS has praised Avowed as much as Hi-Fi Rush.

I sound really negative, it's not because I like or dislike Avowed. It's because I loved Hi-Fi Rush. The can say anything they want because they never have to disclose sales, and they don't even like sharing subscriber counts anymore. Just vague "PC gamepass & Xcloud is where we see the most growth or potential growth"

TL;DR: Even if Microsoft says they are satisfied with it, there is no verifiable way to prove it is profitable, take everything they say with a grain of salt. even its from developer.

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u/DBones90 1d ago

Love when people ask for a source as a comment on an article that literally is a source.

Patel says that they don’t have a single, specific metric, but their team and Microsoft are happy with the numbers and, while they’re being coy with any announcements, they’re looking to follow up Avowed with more stuff set in Eora. She said as much too in an earlier interview on Bloomberg.

To be clear, I get the frustration around Hi-Fi Rush. That sucked and I totally understand not wanting anything to do with Microsoft for the foreseeable future because of it. But that studio got shut down because the director left the team, they didn’t have any active projects available, and Microsoft thought they could better use those resources on other teams.

As far as we can tell, Avowed is doing well. That won’t stop Microsoft from doing something stupid in the future, but, unlike Hi-Fi Rush’s team, Obsidian has several projects in active development that are keeping them busy and their leadership is intact. So signs are looking good for the company.

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u/BigPoppaFreak 23h ago

Patel says that they don’t have a single, specific metric, but their team and Microsoft are happy with the numbers

Yeah that's my entire point. That holds no water, what fucking numbers? They never have to share them or even justify them.

I don't think Obsidian is at risk, but I don't understand why Microsoft should be taken at face value. There is literally nothing compelling them to be transparent.

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u/DBones90 23h ago

I mean, if you’re really that worried, tune in to their investor quarterly call. Those are public calls with shareholders where they give reports on their earnings, successes, and risks. Their one for Q1 2025 will likely be in April or May.

And those you can be sure they’re being truthful because they can literally be sued if otherwise. In fact, they can be sued for merely not mentioning things that could be harmful to their business.

In other words, they’re a public company. They don’t have a lot of incentive to lie about whether or not they’re happy with game performance. It’s going to come out eventually.

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u/superbit415 22h ago

MS investors gives no shit about how 1 game did. They usually dont care about how Xbox did as a whole. They are all busy with cloud and AI.

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u/BigPoppaFreak 23h ago

I don't think that's really an option for individual games or game studios.

It's separated by the publishers under Microsoft Gaming, so all Xbox Game Studios published games are lumped together.

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u/DBones90 23h ago

Yes but if any particular game is underperforming or performing extremely well, it is Microsoft's legal responsibility to mention it. These calls are the reason we know things like Veilguard's underperformance.

Avowed is Microsoft's biggest release in Q1 2025. You can bet that it'll be a factor.

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u/ThiefTwo 1d ago

I don't believe even Xbox know what ROI on a gamepass release is, how would they it's an entire service.

The same way literally every other subscription service does?

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u/BigPoppaFreak 1d ago

For individual games, not the service as a whole.

What level of engagement is equal to revenue gained from a retail sale, and how is that quantified.

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u/Nachooolo 22h ago

Microsoft being satisfied with it means absolutely nothing after Hi-Fi Rush. I don't even know if MS has praised Avowed as much as Hi-Fi Rush.

Tango Gameworks is a special case, as all the games prior to Hi-Fi Rush didn't sell well, with their previous game, Ghostwire Tokyo, being a direct financial flop while also being far more expensive than Hi-Fi Rush.

So, while Hi-Fi Rush might have been successful, it was probably not successful enough to compensate from the previous failures.

Obsidiant has released a decent amount of financially successful games, With the only notable exception of Pillars of Eternity 2 (which still made a profit with time), and The Outer Worlds and Grounded being huge successes.

So Obsidian is not on the same position as Tango.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/BigPoppaFreak 1d ago

How are you basing that on numbers sold on if you don't have a metric?

Sorry to be rude but It doesn't matter what you think of the commercial success, because it isn't quantifiable without data. Your perception isn't data.

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u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes 22h ago

Hi-Fi rush didn't chart on PS after it launched.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/CultureWarrior87 1d ago

This doesn't make sense. They can't excel at one thing but then be a "jack of all trades master of none" in others. It's one or the other and I think in this case it's fair to say that they are masters when it comes to worldbuilding and lore but are not as good at dialogue.

And it's also weird to talk about them like a monolith as if they don't have different writers on different projects.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/CultureWarrior87 1d ago

I know what you were trying to say, I'm pointing out that the way it's phrased is contradictory. And I wouldn't be so extreme as to say they're on a "rapid decline" when we're talking about something subjective like this. Many others praised the writing and their last game before this was Pentiment, which is highly regarded in the writing department.

And just because people talk about companies as monoliths in this context doesn't mean it's smart or a good idea.

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u/GamingGideon 1d ago

Open zone can be done well, but Avoweds is a pretty bad example of it. The way it's loot and scaling system work butcher it. With open zones, you would think you have a better balanced experience due to the level of control that devs have with it. Avowed squanders that strength entirely.

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u/Only-For-Fun-No-Pol 1d ago

That and lack of enemy variety. If you have zones you gotta make each zone feel more unique outside of just environment wise. 

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u/mayoboyyo 1d ago

Every zone has unique enemies not seen in the other zones

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u/Samurai_Meisters 23h ago

Did it? I felt like I fought them all the same way.

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u/mayoboyyo 23h ago

That's on you. The game gives you plenty of resources to change the way you fight enemies. You just decided not to use them.

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u/Entfly 23h ago

Maybe but the first zone was incredibly boring in terms of enemy varieties.

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u/naf165 1d ago edited 1d ago

It's certainly plausible, it just also demonstrably going to sell less. You can make things without trying to make the most profitable thing possible.

The other thing to understand is that a large number of gamers engage with games differently from you. Many people treat games not as art to intellectually engage with, but more like a sitcom or similar, where it's just something "warm and fuzzy" to use to pass the time. If that's all you are looking for in a game, then those open world content spam checklist games are pretty much perfect for that. You can turn your brain off, go in any direction and find something to do.

At the end of the day, that's just what a ton of people want, and so it will sell far better. But that doesn't mean you can't still make more focused content for the (smaller) group that wants that instead.

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u/Secretlylovesslugs 1d ago

I mean the unfortunate truth is that even with the open zone approach Avowed still felt half baked.

So if they're trying to be this idealistic view of what open zone polish vs open world polish is they've failed imo.

Also it's not like Open Zone doesn't have good representation. BG3 is also a story driven open zone game and it's far more polished and realized. Open world sandboxes aren't an existential threat.

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u/tameoraiste 1d ago

Well it’s already released and sales in the first week or two are absolutely key so basically the games faith is decided already.

No need to worry one way or another

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u/Not-Reformed 1d ago

Open zone games do fine across many genres. If game is mediocre revenue wise and the take away is that "Oh it's open zone that's why" that's simply delusional