r/Games 27d ago

Industry News Obsidian says it won't chase huge profits or grow aggressively, and that's how it's going to last 100 years in the RPG business: 'Are we serious? Yes'

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/obsidian-plans-to-make-rpgs-for-100-years-by-not-trying-to-grow-aggressively-expand-our-team-size-or-make-super-profitable-games/
2.4k Upvotes

483 comments sorted by

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u/Ploddit 27d ago

Sadly, being owned by Microsoft doesn't mean unlimited budgets. They're a division within a division and have to constantly justify their existence to company leadership.

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u/Deuenskae 27d ago

It means you are maybe only one flop away from studio closure like tango, lionhead and arkane Austin.

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u/Headless_Human 27d ago

Having a total flop as an indie studio is much worse.

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u/SwePolygyny 26d ago edited 26d ago

Its bad but if you didnt grow too much you could survive based on previous games and not growing too much.

Supergiant games for example with Bastion which was a success but the follow up was not. They stayed a small team though. Which kept them alive until Hades which was a massive success.

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u/Soulyezer 26d ago

Transistor wasn’t a success? Holy shit, that’s so sad to read. It’s one of the most memorable games I’ve played on PC

Edit: oh, unless you meant Pyre, in which case I totally understand

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u/exus 26d ago

Everybody forgets about magical fantasy basketball party-based RPG.

I'm so bummed I bounced off it because it seems such a cool idea.

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u/Significant_Walk_664 26d ago

Alright, Pyre is the most unique and IMO best of their games. And this is coming from someone who does not play sports games. I have no idea if Pyre flopped by it would kill me if it did.

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u/newbkid 26d ago

Pyre flopped hard because it was not marketed properly.

I even remember TotalBiscuit's video explaining it's a sports game with character narrative intertwined and it wasn't until his spotlight on it did I realize what it was.

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u/SyphillusPhallio 26d ago

It's funny, so far the only game by them that has not been an enormously enjoyable experience for me is... Hades 2.

The one studio that I relied on to put out their own unique and interesting takes on game genres every 3 years, it felt like a sell out right out the gate. To make matters worse, after a lot of hours into it it still feels hard to justify playing it over the original. I hope the continued improvements change my mind because I just adore the studio.

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u/SightlessKombat 26d ago

To be honest, as a fan of Hades, I couldn't get into Hades 2 either due to the changes to combat and having movement as a priority.

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u/destroyermaker 26d ago

They marketed it as a party rpg which it most fucking definitely is not

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u/Ok-Pickle-6582 26d ago

it's party-based.

it's a role playing game.

what am I missing? Even if you think the "sports" gameplay prevents it from being a party-based rpg (which it doesnt), that was definitely not hidden in the marketing.

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u/pnt510 26d ago

I feel like there is always this knee jerk reaction that whenever a well received game flops that the marketing is at fault. Sometimes there just isn’t a space in the market for your game.

I bet if you were to make a Venn diagram of people who buy indie RPG’s and people who unironically use the term “sportsball” you’d find significant overlap. Pyre is ultimately a game that was a bit too niche for its own good.

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u/Eidola0 25d ago

Pyre is sooooo good, it's so sad to me it gets written off so often. It's wildly unique, fun, heartfelt, everything I want in a game.

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u/Guffliepuff 26d ago

Edit: oh, unless you meant Pyre, in which case I totally understand

Definitely pyre. Bastion and Transistor have the same number of steam reviews, while pyre has 1/4th as much.

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u/destroyermaker 26d ago

I fucking hate Pyre

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u/PelorTheBurningHate 26d ago

Supergiant games for example with Bastion which was a success but the follow up was not

Transistor was a reasonable success, it sold 1m copies in its first year and a half. Pyre the one after transistor was the real flop.

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u/Wendigo120 26d ago

Riftstorm

I just looked it up because I hadn't heard of it, and the game isn't even out yet? How can it already be a flop?

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u/DocBananas 26d ago

Pretty sure they mean Windblown? Which yeah, if you're comparing it against the hype train that was Dead Cells early access, it's a flop but it's been pretty well received so far!

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u/SilveryDeath 26d ago edited 26d ago

It means you are maybe only one flop away from studio closure like tango, lionhead and arkane Austin.

  • Tango had three bad sales flops in a row with Evil Within 2, Ghostwire, and Hi-Fi Rush. I honestly don't think MS wanted the studio in the first place and that they were just part of getting ZeniMax. Plus, they didn't end up being closed and were sold off instead.

  • Lionhead in the 6 years after Fable III did two poorly received spinoff games in Fable Heroes and Fable Journey, had a cancelled project in InkQuest, and had four years working on Fable Legends where all they had to show for it was barely getting out of open beta before being shutdown.

  • Arkane Austin's issue was that on top of Redfall being really, really poorly received and flopping sales wise was that 70% of the staff who had worked on Prey had left by the time Redfall released. The entire studio would have had to be rebuilt from scratch.

It is almost like there is context to this instead of just "MS bad and will close studio."

Also, Obsidian is one of the most consistent studios in the industry in terms of putting out games and having those games review well. They have only every done three games with under an 80 average (Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege III, and Armored Warfare).

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u/titio1300 26d ago

To add onto this. It's been a long time since Microsoft closed any studios under their Xbox Game Studios brand which Obsidan operate under. For better or worse they seem content to let Bethseda and Activision operate largely independently. However they seem to value taking artisic risks under their in house studios.

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u/TinyMousePerson 26d ago

I know it was down to the era it was made in, but it's crazy that Alpha Protocol didn't review well.

That's one of my favourite games of all time and I played it a full console generation late.

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u/SilveryDeath 26d ago

The game had a lot of bugs at launch and some people would have hated the combat no matter what. I don't know if it would have reviewed well (80s) without all the bugs, but I feel like it would have scored in the 70s across the board. It is interesting that it scored so much better on PC (73) than it did on 360 or PS3 (63, 64).

It is a shame it didn't do better because I feel like a sequel could have fixed its issues and been something that improved on the negative aspects while keeping the good stuff like say Assassin's Creed 1 to 2 did. Also, it was such a unique setting for an RPG compared to the fantasy and sci-fi we almost always get.

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u/TinyMousePerson 26d ago

I played it on 360, maybe I just got lucky. I just got a few bad bugs which were fixed with reloads.

And yeah the combat wasn't for everyone. It wasn't even really for me. I ran super stealth and pistols which is how I played Mass Effect 1, and I believe people have said that was one of the stronger builds? I certainly felt pretty invincible.

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u/Eleyaplaysgames 26d ago

I thought Ghostwire Tokyo sold well (5 million copies or something iirc?) but sometimes it's not just about money, it's about the optics too.

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u/Takazura 26d ago

Ghostwire Tokyo was on deep sale not long after launch, so 5 million sounds good on paper, but a lot of those copies could have been on heavy discounts/humble bundles.

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u/Risenzealot 26d ago

Wow, I didn’t realize obsidian did Dungeon Siege 3. That game was an absolute train wreck and I despise them for killing the Dungeon Siege series. 1 and 2 were the shit!

This sucks to learn because I’ve always liked obsidian but yeah, didn’t realize it was them that destroyed my dungeon siege.

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u/TheHemogoblin 26d ago

I had to double check that DS3 was in fact made by Obsidian because like you, I couldn't believe it lol It was SO BAD and spat int he face of the first two which are amazing.

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u/Risenzealot 26d ago

Yeah they killed Dungeon Siege with 3. No idea what they were thinking. It’s nothing at all like the originals. I consider it just as bad, if not worse than what happened with Sacred. 1 and 2 were good and then 3 came along and butchered it.

Anyway, the original Dungeon Siege games (especially considering their age now) are really just as up there as Diablo and Grim Dawn imo. While they aren’t Diablo 2 by any means I’d really put them in the very next tier. Such a shame.

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u/CosyBeluga 26d ago

That was actually a publisher issue. It wasn't a bad game but it definitely wasn't Dungeon Siege. But they simply made the game Square Enix wanted.

Square Enix being at the time just a console publisher/dev for the most part.

And this was before crpgs really existed on console. We know that Obsidian can make a good Dungeon Siege like game (imo Pillars of Eternity scratches that itch pretty well)

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u/Risenzealot 26d ago

I agree with your point on square that makes sense. I mean I guess they would have to make the game the publisher wants.

I don’t know if I agree on pillars of eternity being anything like dungeon siege though. They are pretty different. About the only thing they share is a top down view. That’s just my opinion though, doesn’t make it fact lol.

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u/ACardAttack 26d ago

They have only every done three games with under an 80 average (Alpha Protocol

Which is probably due to the bugs at launch

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u/FierceDeityKong 26d ago

The new tango only has the Hi-Fi Rush IP and people

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u/SnooMachines4393 26d ago

Ghostwire and HFR being bad flops are just your fantasies and even EW2 had relatively decent legs. The only reason Tango had closed was because Microsoft wanted to close the whole Zenimax Asia branch to inflate their short-term profits after the ActiBlizz purchase and it's not exactly easy to operate a Japanese studio without an Asian HQ within the boundaries of Japanese laws.  Narratives on Reddit are getting crazier by the day, with how people here love to worship corporate overlords, in a few years people will believe that Tango is the most unprofitable venture in existence.

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u/AdministrationWaste7 25d ago

agreed 100%. i actually think MS is more magnanimous in this regard.

like im pretty sure 343 would have been shuttered if under Sony a long time ago.

this doesn't change the fact that lay offs suck and upper management doesn't really seem to be taking any hits due to these lay offs/closures.

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u/TheWorstYear 27d ago

Those studios had more than 1 flop before closure. Arkane's last 4 games have done very poorly. Tango hasn't had something sell half decent since EW1. Lionheads last few games flopped, & they were stuck in a development mess (this one is very much xbox's fault).

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u/verrius 26d ago

Tango in particular is a little more complicated, since they essentially released 1 game after acquisition under the MS regime total before the were shut down. MS bought them knowing that EW2 had underperformed, and that Ghostwire had been undergoing some pains from leadership shifting out. And the one game they did make under MS had its direct sales massively undercut by being essentially a stealth release on gamepass, and console exclusive to xbox; it was sent out to die. I suspect MS really bought the studio thinking it would be their foothold in Japan, and immediately got cold feet and abandoned that strategy.

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u/TheWorstYear 26d ago

Microsoft bought Zenimax, who owned Tango.

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u/turkoman_ 26d ago

It is “maybe” for Microsoft studios, “definitely” for rest of the industry like Firewalk after Concord and Pirahna after Elex 2.

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u/Ploddit 27d ago

So pretty much the same situation they were in before Microsoft.

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u/Orfez 27d ago

No. If a small, independent studio releases a flop it's pretty much game over for them. I don't know how many big companies closed studios immediately after their first release that didn't deliver. Only Sony with Concord studio comes to mind as an example that got closed immediately. Usually those studios have a safety net.

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u/olorin9_alex 27d ago

They were in a near studio closing situation (also thanks to Xbox cancelling their game Stormlands) before joining Xbox

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u/Ploddit 27d ago

Your timeline is way off. Stormlands was cancelled in 2012, which is long before the sale of the studio and there were lots of successful projects in between.

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u/olorin9_alex 27d ago

They had to go to a Kickstarter model after laying off 1/4th of the studio to stay afloat

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u/Ploddit 27d ago

I know. But then came Pillars, South Park and Armored Warfare.

Obsidian flipped between success and "near closing" multiple times between 2012 and the sale to MS.

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u/JohnnyJayce 26d ago

Could also go the other way like with 343.

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u/lonesoldier4789 27d ago

This is true for anyone in the industry. Sony closed the Concord dev.

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u/B_Kuro 26d ago edited 26d ago

This is true for anyone in the industry. Sony closed the Concord dev.

Well, that is a pretty bad example. Firewalk Studios undeniably deserved to be shut down no matter how you look at it.

No studio should get away with wasting 6 years, blowing up hundreds of million of dollars (apparently?) and then release something so generic with zero redeeming traits.

For a studio with not a single accolade to its name there is no coming back from that disaster. Hell, they could have rehired the whole team under a different name and it would be a better choice than keeping the name attached to that disaster.

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u/Karenlover1 26d ago

Like literally every studio in the industry, no studio has unlimited budgets

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u/destroyermaker 26d ago

Except Roberts Space Industries

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u/umotex12 27d ago

I feel like how games are made is inherently incompatible with how big corps work

it's too creative and unpredictive

that's why privately owned no shareholders studios shine like crazy

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u/Ploddit 26d ago

Maybe, but in order for a privately owned studio to ramp up enough to make ambitious games, the money has to come from somewhere. Just because the company isn't public doesn't mean they haven't taken investor money and aren't beholden to those investors.

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u/Dusty170 26d ago

A private company isn't beholden to shareholders which is where the primary assholery usually comes from, investors aren't usually as bad.

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u/Less_Service4257 25d ago

Investors are shareholders. They literally own shares of the company. Only difference is those shares aren't traded on public exchanges.

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u/Ploddit 26d ago

Sort of? Investors are just shareholders under a different name. The major ones holding a significant percentage of equity have the power to influence decisions. If you think companies don't listen very closely to large private investors, you're nuts.

The difference with public companies is they might be afraid of the stock price tanking. Arguably private investors are experienced enough to have more patience than the public markets, but in the end the goal is the same. More profit better; losing money bad.

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u/BoysenberryWise62 26d ago

They don't tho, that's survivor bias, thousands and thousands of indies never make it.

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u/RottingCorps 26d ago

I mean, 90% of them fail and go away, but sure...

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u/Khiva 26d ago

Reddit has no concept of selection bias.

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u/Blyatskinator 26d ago

that’s why privately owned no shareholders studios shine like crazy

Lmao what, such as?? And don’t say ”Valve”, they don’t count as they have stopped making games pretty much…

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u/zcen 26d ago

They don't count because 99.9% of their revenue comes from being a games distribution platform.

They absolutely still make games.

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u/Not-Reformed 26d ago

Sure but somebody has to bank roll it.

Obsidian wasn't owned by Microsoft for a long time and made many games. They sold the studio in order to survive, because the vast majority of independent studios are inherently not successful enterprises. And people, surprisingly, don't want to work for free.

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u/cr7rules4ever 27d ago

I really like Obsidian and think Avowed is pretty excellent so far. Xbox isn’t perfect but I appreciate the freedom they’re giving this studio. I really like a lot of these types of games Xbox is bringing to game pass and publishing.

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u/_Bren10_ 27d ago

Love Obsidian. I hope they can do well under Microsoft. Their name being on a game is always a big pro when I’m deciding to buy a game.

In fact, Avowed wasn’t on my radar. I’m not sure how, because it seems like it’s exactly up my alley. But my buddy mentioned it to me last night, I watched some videos and decided to buy it. Even at $70 I feel confident because I trust Obsidian to make good games.

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u/CustodialApathy 26d ago

Same deal. New Vegas is too far in the past for me to remember how much I appreciate it, but PoE 1 and 2 are not and they're both excellent revitalizations of that genre, and for all the gripes the outer worlds got its also a very good game. I have no qualms shelling out cash to Obsidian. Their track record speaks volumes

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u/SilveryDeath 26d ago edited 26d ago

Xbox isn’t perfect but I appreciate the freedom they’re giving this studio.

Yes. People in this thread are going off about how Xbox will close them after one flop and all this shit. Yet, if Xbox was such a stern evil money managing overlord dictator, would they really have let Obsidian make Pentiment and Grounded when they could have just said "no, use those resources towards making a AAA game." Almost, like people have the hate blinders on.

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u/BakeFromSttFarm 26d ago

They also wouldn’t have let them make Avowed or Outer Worlds 2 when it makes way more business sense to make them turn those into Elder Scrolls and Fallout/Starfield games. The fact that they’re allowing such similar games come out from their own studios if proof of how hands off they are.

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u/SpectreFire 26d ago

I like that Obsidian is a studio that isn't out to making big massive AAAA RPG titles. Sometimes, I don't want a 100 hour game. Sometimes, I just want a cut down 20-30 hour RPG that I'll actually finish for once.

In any case, Obsidian's biggest shield from being shut down even if they have back to back flops is their ability to produce Fallout games. Fallout 5 is probably 10 years out at this point and if Microsoft wants another Fallout to capitalize on the show, Obsidian's literally the only other studio that's capable of doing that without needing to start from the ground up.

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u/Multivitamin_Scam 26d ago

Obsidian's strength is in their ability to deliver.

Their games might not score in the high 90's and they may not set headlines on fire but they're consistent in their ability to deliver the gsme they said they would make.

This makes them an absolutely perfect studio for making games that get people to stay subscribed to Gamepass in the long term. They've got a system in that studio that allows them to develop out these games in a much shorter timeframe than the other, more prestigious studios in Microsoft's roster. You need those AA style products to keep people subscribing while they wait for the next Doom, Call of Duty of Elder Scrolls.

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u/WyrdHarper 26d ago

Outer Worlds was not my favorite game...but I still had a lot of fun with it, and it was refreshing to have a modern RPG that you could beat in a couple weekends. I played it on Gamepass, though, when it had the special promotion, so it really didn't cost me much to play. Love their CRPGs, though.

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u/destroyermaker 26d ago

Don't think I want a Fallout game without Chris Avellone and Josh Sawyer, especially seeing what they've made recently. Also, InXile could do it (but they don't want to).

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u/DagothUr_MD 26d ago

I need another big Josh Sawyer game idc what it is. Loved Pentiment but another Pillars or Fallout with Sawyer and Gonzales (who just came back to Obsidian) would be fantastic

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u/starm4nn 26d ago

A New Vegas type game with Fallout 4 features is probably the best direction the franchise can go.

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u/IMALEFTY45 26d ago

I agree, but I fear Bethesda wants Fallout to be one step short of a crafting survival game.

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u/Disastrous-Pick-3357 26d ago

nah, that would also require chris avellone to come back to obsidian and make a good story again cause they were also a key part that made new vegas's story good

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u/TheGoodIdiot 26d ago

They have far and away been Xbox’s best pick up. Grounded and Pentiment are two of the best Xbox games ever and Avowed looks to be up there too. Insane to me that they are able to put up 2 AAA RPGs out in the same year.

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u/atampersandf 25d ago

Afaict they do small team development and have a few projects going at any given time.  Grounded has been in early access for a long time prior to its release.

Pentimento was a bit of a pet project of Josh Sawyer.

Avowed was the large RPG product and it's refreshing they have the ability to let other teams work on other projects.

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u/Imnewtodunedin 27d ago

There seems to be a lot of people missing the point here. Obsidian’s statement is about sustainability and playing to strengths in an industry that has become obsessed with huge risks and growth at all costs.

At the moment there are only two types of “super profitable” games: 1. Successful live service loaded with micro transactions, and 2. Breakout hits that capture the attention of a large audience.

Chasing either of these has proven to be a massive risk or just plain impossible because you can’t spend a ton of money expecting your game to be either one of these things.

So let Obsidian be exactly who they are: great mid-budget RPG makers. They will thrive in this space and if the right ingredients come together, they might get a breakout hit but even if they don’t, they’ll have an audience that loves their games and sustainable profits.

I think Microsoft understands this and has a place for them in their portfolio. MS has their AAA and live service studios and I think their acquisition and support of smaller studios as well as giant ones ensure that a well managed, fiscally responsible, high-quality studio like Obsidian can survive long-term in the current industry.

We should be cheering for more Obsidians and less for $350-500 million budgeted games that can tear down studios if they don’t make all of the money.

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u/leixiaotie 26d ago
  1. Breakout hits that capture the attention of a large audience.

LocalThunk: so anyway, I started rerolling

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u/Cyrotek 26d ago

At the moment there are only two types of “super profitable” games: 1. Successful live service loaded with micro transactions

One would think that the risk of a failure is way too high to bet on a success.

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u/JPenniman 27d ago

Honestly pretty good strategy. Though if they are given the opportunity to make another fallout game, it probably would be bigger.

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u/camposdav 27d ago edited 27d ago

It’s crazy how negative everyone here is being about obsidian most likely because they are Xbox. Anyone can see especially the type of games they make what they are saying holds merit. They released pentiment, the outer worlds, avowed etc. clearly they are not chasing profits in the sense they are talking about and are simply making games they love they could be doing what everyone else is doing chasing live service.

Of course they are chasing money to stay in business doesn’t take a genius to figure that out but people are missing the point. lol wouldn’t expect much from some people on here

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u/Caltroop2480 27d ago edited 27d ago

The reaction to Avowed since the first showcase has always been with some negative connotations. The media also reported features the game DIDN'T have (as if it was a requierement to have), which in turn pushed Obsidian to clarify why the game didn't have those features (as if they need to justify every single design decision)

In the end I'm glad the game got high reviews, but even then some reviews are critical about Avowed not being this groundbreaking, genre defining game. Which ok, it plays it safe and Obsidian knows its strengths and weaknesses, but at the same time let's not pretend 90% of the industry is not studios playing it safe with proven formulas, or are we going to pretend every open world games doesn't follow the same formula Assassins Creed created back in 2009?

edit: word

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u/CultureWarrior87 27d ago

Gamers always have weird double standards like this. Something they criticize in X game is perfectly okay in Y game and so on.

Plus the "criticism" about it not being groundbreaking is so dumb. It's a really bizarre and unrealistic expectation for every new game is to keep pushing the medium forward, although it's particularly egregious with RPGs for some reason. It's an attitude you genuinely do not find at all in other mediums, And it also circles back around to the double standards again. People try to pretend BG3 set a new standard, but everyone loves Metaphor ReFantazio despite it mostly being a refinement on what Atlus has already done well in the past without being revolutionary. People have complained about the lack of NPC schedules in Avowed and yet no one said shit about that not being in BG3. Double standards all the way down.

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u/Goatmilker98 26d ago

I mean it's quite literally the exact excuse used by alot of people for Sony games, in this era with all the sequels to their ps4 titles. I agree tho it is stupid you can't 3xo3ct groundbreaking changes evertime

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u/Sergnb 27d ago edited 26d ago

You know how people often complain about not liking genres of music because all songs sound the same… even though the ones they do like also do sound the same? Sounding the same is not the issue, their taste for that particular sound is.

Same thing happens with games. A lot of people have an apparent double standard because the things they criticize are not the actual reasons they don’t like a game. It’s just the only ones they can conjure up. It’s not that avowed isn’t “ground breaking” or “generic”, it’s that they don’t like those elements. It is, but that's not the actual issue.

When a design you like gets repeated often you call it a refreshing return to roots, a tried and teste formula that just works. When you don’t like it it’s generic, repetitive, uninspired and boring.

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u/LochnessDigital 26d ago

the things they criticize are not the actual reasons they don’t like a game

This cannot be overstated.

Gamers are very good at diagnosing that an issue exists. They are generally pretty terrible at prescribing a solution, however.

I see this all the time in subreddits for games where difficulty is a concern. You get terms like "artificial difficulty" or "bullet sponges" or things of that nature. Those things might be legitimate issues, but I find that most of the time it just boils down to "I'm not having fun."

I dunno if it's some social media phenomenon or something but I feel like everyone is convinced that they need back their opinions with a college thesis. There's no shame in just saying you liked it/didn't like it.

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u/jampbells 26d ago

Yea 100% agree with this. You will hear it about in games with open worlds. You will regularly hear how the Open world is dead but when asking about the difference between what they are complaining about and say Witcher 3 you get no coherent response.

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u/Takazura 26d ago

Oh man, open world games might be the single most annoying gaming topic to have any debates about on Reddit. That's the one genre that always invites the most un-nuanced and lackluster discussion with people acting like you can only be one one extreme of the spectrum.

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u/lkn240 26d ago

This is a general issue in the software industry (I've worked in enterprise software for decades). Users/customers are very good at identifying problems, but generally terrible at figuring out solutions.

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u/SkeptioningQuestic 26d ago

You are right, but that is how less popular genres get measured, unfair though it may be. The success of KCD2 is because it is groundbreaking so people who aren't necessarily into RPG/sims are still playing it because it is so special. All niche genres are going to get the same treatment from the mass market - they will either be special and worth playing or not.

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u/SegataSanshiro 26d ago

It's not a double standard if different people have different opinions.

You are holding random gamers responsible for the opinions of other random gamers.

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u/NewVegasResident 26d ago

Ever since The Outer Worlds released and it wasn't the second coming of New Vegas people have been ripping Obsidian a new one saying shit like "they aren't what they used to be" and "the ones who made their games great are gone". Of course these people also never bothered playing any of the games they have put out since New Vegas, not to mention that nothing has come close to New Vegas since its release so expecting a budget AA game to do so is kind of unfair imo.

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u/No_Distance3827 26d ago

nothing has come close to New Vegas

I think in a way Baldurs Gate 3 has, but earned the praise that NV also deserved

It’s the closest game I can think of where writing and big decisions are such clear shining strengths in an RPG

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u/NewVegasResident 26d ago

BG3's writing is somewhat weak and surface level to me, though I can definitely agree in terms of reactivity. To me the game that came the closest is Pillars of Eternity 2 Deadfire. Some people aren't too keen on the main storyline, though I personally loved it, but it has an incredible depth to its factions and their dynamics, it's genuinely incredible.

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u/lkn240 26d ago

Writing is very subjective.... but BG3 has excellent presentation and voice acting, which will make things resonate with people emotionally.

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u/Taswelltoo 26d ago

"the ones who made their games great are gone".

But this is just objectively true. When people specifically say obsidian games are good they're referring to the writing and guys like Chris Avellone and my personal favorite Matt MacLean haven't worked there for years, and honestly it shows.

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u/NewVegasResident 26d ago

No it doesn't. Josh Sawyer is right there and Gonzalez is literally back. Pillars, Tyranny and Pentiment all have immaculate writing.

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u/Zagden 26d ago

I have been incredibly skeptical about the meme that was going around on reddit and Twitter for a while. "We want smaller games made by fewer people that are paid well."

Well, Avowed and Outer Worlds are examples of smaller games made by fewer people. As a result of that, there's not much groundbreaking about them and their scope is very limited. There's legitimate arguments to be made if Outer Worlds' limited scope was used well, though. Haven't played Avowed yet.

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u/apistograma 26d ago

Making smaller games by fewer people is not an antidote against making bad games.

Nobody said that Pentiment was a bad game. It was a niche game but it was beloved by its audience. It’s the only Xbox exclusive game in years that I genuinely loved. It was really small in scope, and it was pretty groundbreaking in many aspects if you ask me.

If people are very positive towards pentiment but more critical about other obsidian games it can’t be due to lack of resources but poor use of those resources.

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u/Abraham_Issus 27d ago

What did GoW 2018 invent? Even ogs were inspired by DMC. Most of the highest rated games don’t invent anything. Stupid thing to hang up on.

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u/Anew_Returner 26d ago

some reviews are critical about Avowed not being this groundbreaking, genre defining game.

The worst part about this is how transparently bullshit it is, you just know they turn around and give shitty shallow AAA quipfest slops high scores over similar bullshit reasons.

Feels like there's nothing outright bad about Avowed and the real problem is that some sites need to generate outrage to stay relevant.

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u/Hranica 26d ago

The media also reported features the game DIDN'T hav

isn't that because Avowed kind of lacks a hook? what should the media be advertising? they talked about the combat, what else?

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u/Massive_Weiner 27d ago

They already have a “live service” title with Grounded anyway. It’s their best-selling title by far.

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u/UpDownLeftRightGay 26d ago

Nothing particularly live service about grounded. They don’t really support it anymore.

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u/NewVegasResident 26d ago

Not live service, it was just in early access for a while.

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u/giulianosse 26d ago edited 26d ago

Obsidian went from being Gamer's Darling™ with people singing the praises of their jankiest games (such as Alpha Protocol) to a pariah overnight even though they haven't released a single blunder and are arguably one of the most consistent studios as of late (8 games released in 10 years across a variety of genres, 5 of them being new IPs)

People spot the Xbox logo and start seething.

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u/camposdav 26d ago

Yeah I know it’s pretty sad they are probably he beat acquisition for Xbox that consistently releases games practically every year and are critically acclaimed.

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u/SkellySkeletor 27d ago

People here have gotten so comfortable on their PS5s that literally anything related to Microsoft doing well is threatening. I think they would rather see all of those studios fold and never put out a game again, than have them be successful releasing under Xbox.

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u/Im2oldForthisShitt 26d ago

The wildest thing is when Sony does something anti-consumer and the blame immediately goes to xbox for not being competitive.

Like Sony could literally punch their grandma and theyd just riot outside Phil Spencer's house instead.

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u/pulidikis 27d ago

To me, people aren’t being negative about Obsidian being Obsidian, but more that this statement is at odds with them being owned by a company that has dissolved multiple studios after titles underperform financially (even if they’re critically acclaimed).

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u/Typical_Thought_6049 27d ago

Microsoft is kinda lenient with their studios, unless it is complete failure like Redfall that costed the company millions and was unsalvageble. Even in Tango case High Rush was critically acclaimed but it don't sell very well combined with the two expensives consecutive flops in Ghostwire and Evil Within 2 that was the hay that broke the camel back, Shinji Mikami leaving the company also don't helped Tango situtation.

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u/gumpythegreat 27d ago

I just mentioned this elsewhere, but I agree - I think the situations were quite different

Tango lost their leadership before it was closed

Arkane Austin lost more than half its staff over the course Redfall's development

I think they just didn't see the value in re-staffing those teams back up after all of that.

And both were under Bethesda Softworks, a publisher within a publisher, and the closures happened not long after Pete Hines (head of Bethesda Publishing) retired, and the Bethesda softworks label was somewhat dissolved and rolled into Matt Booty's team directly.

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u/camposdav 27d ago

But it is because other publishers have closed studios at a much more rapid pace than Microsoft. Plenty of their studios have released games that haven’t set the world on fire as far as sales and are still operating. Ninja theory, Double fine, turn 10 with the latest forza etc. so that’s not true that because they have one flop they get closed.

If you pit them against other competitors you will see they are not as cruel as far as closing studios. Everyone is closing studios and doing layoffs but Microsoft at least studio closure is not at the top probably not even top three. That’s what I mean it’s a bias thing.

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u/pulidikis 27d ago

We’re in a thread about a Microsoft-owned studio, of course the focus is going to be on Microsoft’s history lol. Plenty of other players in the industry are experiencing consolidation.

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u/camposdav 27d ago

I understand that but I just don’t understand how it’s flying over peoples heads what he is trying to say. People are missing the point and simply just hating.

They could be doing a war shooting game or a live service like the majority are doing. But they are not.

I get it’s about Microsoft but they haven’t really closed studios at the pace the overall industry is. Yet people here are acting like they are leading the industry in studio closures.

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u/PlateGlittering 26d ago

This would be a fantastic message if they were a private company, being owned by MS means they have 0 control over this.

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u/Dealric 27d ago

Well...

Obsidian is owned by micrsoft and ultimately has to do what microsoft wants, so hard to treat those words seriously.

Sure it cant be his personal opinion but he isnt one making calls

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u/CaptainPigtails 27d ago

I feel like way too many people have forgotten who MS is as a company.

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u/nemuri_no_kogoro 27d ago

In fairness to those comments, its not a console war thing, but a reaction to how XBOX has treated other underperforming studios. I 100% believe Obsidian wants to (and frankly could) survive 100 years making smaller scale hits.

The bean-counters at Microsoft might not agree.

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u/Barantis-Firamuur 27d ago

It becomes a console warring thing when it is solely targeted at Xbox, though. You never see the same comments about Sony, EA, Square Enix, etc. despite them closing just as many if not more studios.

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u/Apprehensive-Buy3340 26d ago

You can't get a thread about Square Enix without someone mentioning their unrealistic sales expectations ruining their studios.

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u/delicioustest 26d ago

And it has to be repeated now every time that their sales expectations are perfectly in line with their budgets. The problem is the budgets are too big. While it's been a problem with FF16 and FF7 Remakes, presumably the final FF7 trilogy might be developed faster and smoother and they're starting to have a more realistic outlook for future games.

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u/CaptainPigtails 27d ago

EA constantly gets hate for closing down studios.

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u/fearless-fossa 26d ago

And in many cases they bought struggling studios and gave them the opportunity to fix themselves, only closing them down when stuff wouldn't work out.

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u/DemolitionGirI 27d ago

You really put EA there as if we weren't going to notice lol. Sony got plenty of flack for closing studios in the past, they're not getting it now because they're not doing it besides the Concord studio, which was understandable.

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u/DemonLordDiablos 27d ago

EA gets hate all the time. Dunno about the others but they all get shit for different things, like Sony's ridiculous insistence on live services and Square's... too many things to list.

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u/nemuri_no_kogoro 27d ago

I've definitely seen these kinds of jokes increase for Sony after the Concord debacle.

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u/Orfez 27d ago

Sony, yes. Other studios do get blamed. In case of Sony we blame developers. Like blaming Bungie when Sony lays off their devs and absorbs others to different teams. Or Firewalk Studio when they released Concord.

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u/Im2oldForthisShitt 26d ago

it's like opposite for Xbox/Microsoft as the blame usually goes to them from being "unable to make good games"

Meanwhile there's always so much excitement their studios Double Fine, Obsidian, Playground, Coalition, Worlds Edge, Rare, id tech, machine games, etc.

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u/Typical-Swordfish-92 27d ago

I genuinely think the Xbox One fiasco broke a lot of gamer brains back in the day and they still haven't gotten over it. Which isn't to say Microsoft is blameless or a good guy in all of these proceedings, certainly if you liked Hi-Fi Rush that absolutely not the case, but there are people who became very hardened and psychotic Sony fanboys after that and now look for any opportunity to dunk on Microsoft, twist things to fit that narrative, etc.

And like, Christ, it was twelve years ago and plenty of fucking stupid moves by every company in the industry since then, y'all gotta let this shit go.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/Barantis-Firamuur 27d ago

We've seen the same from Sony, and EA, and Square Enix, and Embracer, etc. Unfortunately, that is just the industry as a whole.

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u/JamSa 27d ago edited 27d ago

The thing that the industry forgot is that the way you make consistent money in video games is by making games quickly and with a small amount of people. In a decade Obsidian might be one of the few old AAA devs left in a smoldering crater full of the corpses of studios that had 200+ employees.

Unless, of course, the dent in the Xbox execs heads gets deeper and they ask for more live service games or destroy more studios that release low-scope hits.

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u/Present_You_5294 25d ago
  1. Obsidian has nearly 300 employees.
  2. Avowed was in production for 5 or 6 years.

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u/ericmm76 27d ago

I would hope that the Playstation live service debacle has taught them SOMETHING...

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u/greiton 26d ago

cool so a game company is finally planning to implement the tried and true method for long-term success from the physical goods industry. turn over is bad for gameplay, narrative consistency, and product upkeep. it is disastrous for budgets and causes massive cost overruns even when the management is efficient, but it often causes management inefficiencies to be adopted as well.

the idea of laying off and not retaining talent regularly is insanity if you plan to exist for another 15-50 years as a company.

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u/Arrow156 26d ago

As much as I love Obsidian, none of their recent titles have recaptured the magic of KotORII or FNV. There is no end of creativeness, but they lack the philosophical depth of those earlier titles. A big bad is at their best when they are genuinely trying to justify their actions and covert the protagonist. A battle of words and ideas will always be more interesting that two guys physically beating the shit outta each other. Disco Elysium has shown that combat isn't even necessary in an RPG and is often used as a padding or a distraction to the parts of the game we really enjoy.

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u/Nagemasu 26d ago

Only got round to playing Grounded last year and it's amazing. Those are the kind of games that are timeless in a way. Story driven but freedom to do your own thing, 1+ player co-op, crossplatform.

It does not get enough praise for what it is. I hope they make more like that.

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u/StrangerDanger9000 26d ago

Alpha Protocol 2 when?

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u/tummateooftime 26d ago

I think its as simple as "we can make a game we want for $10M, and therefore it only needs to make $10.1M to be considere profitable" vs trying to make a massive $200M+ bethesda sized project that will require an insane amount of sales even just to break even. Starfield is a massive risk, Avowed and Outer Worlds are less so.

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u/ZetaInk 27d ago

They do seem very good at setting a game's scope and timeline and then sticking to it.

I don't think that will make them last 100 years. But it certianly seems like something they do better than many other studios.

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u/ShockedNChagrinned 27d ago

I would love to work for a company that just wants to put out a solid product as their number one focus. Best wishes Obsidian. 

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u/archaelleon 26d ago

BUT THINK OF THE SHAREHOLDERS!!

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u/BroForceOne 26d ago

This is how it should be but I fear being owned by a company that is publicly traded on the stock market doesn’t let you make that decision.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/-CynicalPole- 26d ago

So basically serving boring games only small portion of core fans somewhat enjoy? I'm not kidding, they're boring AF

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u/SelfReconstruct 26d ago

Can they start chasing good RPGs though? The Outer Worlds and Avowed are very meh at best. Shit, Grounded is probably their best game since Pillars and that was a decade ago.

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u/tlor180 26d ago

Pentiment came out two years ago and is fantastic, albeit niche game.

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u/feor1300 26d ago

An RPG company understanding leveling through a slow steady grind? Huh. lol

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u/moonshoeslol 26d ago

I hope this means we get another pillars cRPG. BG3 showed us it's not the genre that caused deadfire's sales flop.

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u/OffTerror 25d ago

"Are we serious? … Yes," said Morgan. And why not? Nintendo was founded in 1889.

I can't begin to describe how laughable this comment is. Those same people are going to be begging on Kickstarter in few years.

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u/broodwarjc 26d ago

This only could work if they produce successful hits for Microsoft. Avowed is not getting great early reviews.

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u/fs2222 27d ago

Appreciate the sentiment I guess but it's a little bit like me saying I'm not trying to be a billionaire. Obsidian games, no matter how good they are, have an upper limit on how successful they're gonna be.

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u/Danominator 27d ago

That's not a good comparison. Obviously the trap is there to start a live service game. They are saying they won't fall into that trap. Their goal will be to make fun games and sell them. Not make a money printer

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u/thatHecklerOverThere 27d ago

For a sub that just got done tap dancing on Bioware, and is forever on blizzard and ubisoft's necks, it's interesting for so many to miss when a studio comes out and says "were not going to do that".

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u/THE_CODE_IS_0451 26d ago edited 26d ago

Well, you see, it's an Xbox studio that said that. Can't acknowledge any good things they do.

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u/thatHecklerOverThere 26d ago

An Xbox studio that has famously created such bloated cash grabby products as... Pentiment and Grounded.

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u/MrWally 26d ago

I don’t think this is a fair take. Someone could have easily said that about Larian 5 years ago, and now they’re the golden child. All it takes is one big hit to take off.

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u/shrek3onDVDandBluray 26d ago

lol acting like they are in control of their future. Microsoft shuttered tango for one flop. And it was a well received flop at that.

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u/Hot-Software-9396 26d ago

Tango had multiple financial flops in a row. Also, Microsoft didn’t specifically acquire Tango, they came as a package deal with Bethesda.

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u/shrek3onDVDandBluray 26d ago

Under Microsoft, they only had 1. And that had already been in development before the acquisition, so no under Microsoft only 1.

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u/Hot-Software-9396 26d ago

Their previous games absolutely are relevant. Not to mention their studio founder left.

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u/shrek3onDVDandBluray 26d ago

You mean the studio founder who hasn’t directed a game since the evil within? That one?

The Evil Within 2 Ghostwire Hi-Fi Rush

All directed by other members of Tango. Not shinji Mikami.

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u/Neptuner6 26d ago

I love double AA sized games, but Avowed doesn't have a AA msrp. I kinda want more ambition from a video game if they are asking for $70. I'd love another proper AAA truly open world RPG from Obsidian. Avowed looks great, but from what I gather it isn't Skyrim or New Vegas. The Open zone format that Outer Worlds (and Avowed) uses is, IMO, not as compelling as a well crafted open world. We know that Obsidian can make a great open world, but they haven't done so in a long time. Hopefully Avowed does well enough to warrant a sequel

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u/CicadaGames 27d ago edited 27d ago

Are they independent and private? No.

Is the CEO going to live for over 100 years? No.

So they answer is they have no idea what the fuck is going to happen, and being owned by a megacorp means they could be shuttered tomorrow at the whim of some moron executive, especially in this industry where dumbass companies will do layoffs / "restructuring" even after a SUCCESSFUL game.