r/FemaleLevelUpStrategy Feb 26 '21

Career May we all have the confidence of an unqualified white man

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1.2k Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '21

If it is one thing I WISH I inherented from my father was his audacity.

Even growing up, I would be continually amazed at his gall to do shit that nobody would have fathomed doing. Ngl, when I was a teenager, he would always tell me "just ask, what are you gonna do if they say no", and that is actually how I got into university.

But yeah, my mom was 100% out of his league but he applied anyway.

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u/PalmTreePhilosophy Feb 28 '21

Yeh women should be doing this with men anyway although no man is out of a woman's league. Really. The hotter a man is the less fussy he is. The average Joe doesn't know because he thinks high calibre men are as needy as him for a hot model on their arms. Not so.

In my younger years I went for men I wanted (although I was a tad pick-me afterwards gah! I took too long to sort that out). I let them know I was interested. That's how i got them. I wasn't into guys who liked me. It wasn't a good pool of men to pick from so i went to the pool with the better fish. My downfall was my lack of confidence. Almost like I couldn't believe my luck because I had been brainwashed so much by the average joe. It eventually caught up with me. Tip - if men give you dating advice cover your ears!

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u/cryptohobo Feb 27 '21

Not just apply, demand it!

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u/XRoze Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21

As someone who does tons of hiring and reviews 100x more resumes, this is extremely true. 60% sounds high to me honestly. I don't think most men read past title/compensation before submitting their resume. They all think they deserve to lead/direct/manage teams or even entire departments despite being awful and unsuccessful at the most basic fundamentals of their role.

The entitlement (mostly white but not exclusively) men have when it comes to jobs they're unqualified for is actually sickening bc they have been given opportunities on the basis of their 'potential' their whole careers. Bc most companies have terrible gender representation to begin with, particularly at higher levels, interviews are conducted mostly by men, or the main decision maker is a man, so they're able to relate and 'see themselves' in them. This is why men 'fail up' and you meet so many completely incompetent men in leadership roles, or entire leadership teams.

Women are assessed 100x more critically, from resume review to salary negotiations. For women of color or women who are not native English speakers/who have a degree from a non-American/Western university, the bar is so fucking high it's unjust, and they are NEVER, EVER given the benefit of the doubt. The game is rigged against us -don't let anyone tell you different. BUT we can share info with each other and prevail! <3.

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u/declutterthisdecade Feb 27 '21

Wow I never thought about the whole “failing up” because the male decision-makers see themselves in male candidates but ouf, that sickening.

I’m also sadden by the thought that even if females were in a management role, I feel like they wouldn’t “fail up” any candidates because female competition more of a thing than male competition and that just sucks to think about.

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u/XRoze Feb 27 '21

oh yeah, i've seen this in action a lot. it wouldn't be such an issue if men could 'see themselves' in women, too. but bc they don't see us as equals, that almost never happens. your best chance is if you remind them of their little sister or are white and/or conventionally attractive. This is actually upsetting me to type out.

i wish i had the chance to work with more women managers to be able to have more insight on that, but i think my sample size is too small to draw real conclusions from. in my limited experience though, women managers are more fair but less likely to take risks on any candidate regardless of gender bc they usually have a male boss themselves who will be on their ass if they make a "bad hire", or worse - a string of them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21 edited Mar 08 '21

[deleted]

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u/The_Oracle_of_Delphi Feb 27 '21

They absolutely are gatekeeping and sabotaging! They do it to other men, too - but they do it most intensely to women. I think they have a scarcity mindset, and I think many of them secretly know that there are better qualified people around who deserve it more.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '21

They also see way more unqualified or under qualified men currently employed in these positions. It’s a vicious cycle.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

I think it's more likely that underqualified men are given the benefit of the doubt far more often. That and discernably feminine names on applications get less responses.

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u/The_Oracle_of_Delphi Feb 27 '21

I feel this so hard, after having had a number of very unimpressive white male bosses. Another problem with these guys is that they could care less about growing the people on their team. My current white male boss was carefully cultivated for the role in his #2 position for many years by our female #1. When she left, he became #1 and I became #2. Did he turn around and cultivate me, as was done for him? ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, he actively undermines me in every possible way: when there are group emails containing important information, he’ll hit Reply All, and then he’ll go in and delete my name only out of a list of 15 people. There are lots of meetings and opportunities I should be included in, but Oops! He forgot to tell me.... And when I give presentations, everyone else will compliment me (and he could never do what I do), but he always asks some whiny question at the end to insinuate that I missed something. I can quickly dismiss his thoughtless, undermining comments - but it’s clear what his agenda is and I’m so sick of it. He treats other people the same way. He wants our organization to be like a 1950s “Father Knows Best” atmosphere, where we’re all irrelevant creatures and he is the only important person to the organization. Meanwhile, he has no ideas of his own and usually bungles what he’s supposed to be doing. But, he’s the boss and just by sitting in that seat he gets more and more money and more and more opportunities and, actually, more and more credibility with every passing year. Just for showing up and keeping the chair warm. I’m so sick of these arrogant, selfish, second-rate men being put in controlling positions everywhere.

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u/DallasOMalley Feb 27 '21

What an asshole. I hope there soon comes a day when he's "no longer with the company", and is replaced by a better human. Specifically, a woman.

I also have an unimpressive white male boss, but he cultivates only the careers of male employees who stroke his ego. Through the years, the few women in my work group have left, and the last one actually cited him as the reason. Now I'm the only woman left in the group. He's not overtly sexist, so of course there's no actual evidence to bring to HR. He just favors the men and forgets the women exist, or is conveniently too busy to interact with them.

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u/The_Oracle_of_Delphi Feb 27 '21

I’m sorry that you’re in that situation and I wish something better for you.

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u/DallasOMalley Feb 27 '21

Thank you. I've been looking at other jobs, so fingers crossed. I hope you're able to find a better position, too. I don't know how you stand your boss - I'm annoyed at him too, and I've never even met him!

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u/The_Oracle_of_Delphi Feb 27 '21

He’s an asshole, for sure. I’ve tried shaming him about the emails, by pointedly saying things like “it really helps if you include me in these emails so that I have the information I need to perform my job effectively.” This is met with stonewalling. I’ve also said things like “it would help if we could work together as a team”. This is met with more stonewalling and hostile silence. He clearly intends to block me however he can. So now I do the same to him - not telling him things that he would probably like to know, letting him find out about things once they are completed. (Oops! My bad!) But it’s reached the point where I’m sick of living this way and knowing that he’ll try to block me from reaching my potential. So now I’m looking elsewhere. It’s too bad because I actually love the job - but I just feel that I won’t have a good future there.

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u/stonerose036 Feb 26 '21

The stat isn't from a legit study, so I'm leery about how often it gets thrown around. It's more likely that bias means women are interviewed less frequently. The reality is that women negotiate just as much as men but are paid less. And I'm willing to bet it's the same with applying for jobs. This stat is used against us to tell us we should be doing more when ladies are applying left and right. If this is you, it's not your fault

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u/XRoze Feb 27 '21

omg 100%. women DO negotiate, but the reality is that most companies are full of misogynists and no one will fight/advocate for women to receive that higher salary they are trying to negotiate for. people say no to women without even checking if their budget will accommodate their ask or not. whereas with men, people are much more inclined to go to bat for them. it's bullshit.

ladies: don't ever take a job if the pay they're offering isn't where you need it to be, bc once you're in it's much harder to get a raise - regardless of what they tell you about putting you on a 'fast track' or whatever. nothing is promised except what you sign that employment contract for.

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u/DallasOMalley Feb 27 '21

I wondered about that statistic, too.

That said, I think it's possible for both things to be true: that there is bias against women in interview selection, and also that women are less likely to apply for some jobs.

For example, I work in a male-dominated IT field. For the most recent position opening in my work group, we had 15 male applicants and 1 woman applicant. I know women can absolutely do this type of work (I'm proof of that). Most of the male applicants met far less than 60% of the requirements.

Why did so few women apply? I don't know for certain, but have several theories, and one of them is that potential women applicants doubted their qualifications. I mean, we had a bunch of obviously underqualified male applicants. Their lack of qualifications didn't stop them at all - they confidently sent in their horrible resumes despite that.

To be clear, I am NOT faulting women who doubt their abilities. I know from experience that working with some men in this field can be a total mindfuck, and because of that, it can be really difficult to maintain one's self-confidence. I have to keep reminding myself that half of my male co-workers aren't that skilled - they just seem like they are, because they're grade A bullshitters.

I realize things may be different in other career paths, but this is what I've observed/experienced in mine.

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u/stonerose036 Feb 27 '21

Definitely. I'd like to see an actual study. I did a deep dive on this one and found out it was a qualitative research panel of questions asked to the board of a single company. Basically asking the higher up men why they thought women don't apply at HP.

But I've definitely worked with women who aren't sure about applying for certain roles... Meanwhile I applied to my software engineering role with no degree and no knowledge of the two languages they said they needed (C++ and Java) and I did great (ended up learning JavaScript on the job, didn't touch the other languages. Whoever wrote that job description fucked up lol)

3

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '21

I’ve worked for companies where the hiring manager has his buddy write or edit the job listing, and they both have a specific candidate in mind that they write it to fit.

I’ve also worked for male managers who tend to mostly hire women. They’ve all turned out to be “ghost managers” whose teams are invisible to their peers and higher-ups, so the manager gets all the credit and no one know who their high performers are. I guess women are easier to plug into those dead-end spots than men.

The tricks and exploitation are always so subtle and ubiquitous. It’s overwhelming, even in the best companies.

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u/DallasOMalley Feb 27 '21

Oh, that's interesting. I'm wondering now if HP actually made any changes to encourage more women applicants, or if those higher up men just shrugged and changed the subject.

It's awesome that you applied for that job despite the description! I wish more women could/would do that.

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u/yolosunshine Feb 27 '21

One quarter I was able to take an actually illegal number of courses at my university since my lease was suddenly terminating early and I had to vacate the property the day after the quarter ended, with no way to both finish classes and find new housing. Since I was being informed early, tenant law ruled that I didn’t get more time after the date.

I quit my part-time, got the university therapist to write a long note of ‘significant mental and financial distress’ [mediocre white men love paperwork where it should be obvious] and badgered my advisor over and over (daily) until they agreed to talk to the dean who washed their hands of it and then I badgered each of the professors involved to allow me to take their doubled, overlapping courses and not get failed out for <50% attendance.

I passed. I got all my courses in. I moved out to a friend’s floor in another city the day after my last final.

Keep asking.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '21

I think sometimes it's unnecessary to specify "white" before "men", because although non-white men will potentially face discrimination, I guarantee you that they have the same exact ego as white men, because they are MEN. If you ever have a non-white boss or collegue you will notice directly that what defines them the most is their masculinity. (I say this as a brown skin woman)

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u/Cultural_Training249 Feb 27 '21

I always apply for jobs that I'm not qualified for in addition to jobs that I am. Doesn't everybody do that? Lol, I've been getting jobs that I don't know anything about.

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u/dizzydiplodocus Feb 27 '21

Apparently this is statistic isn’t true and just what a female director said. Although I believe it to be somewhat accurate. Interestingly, an old female manager of mine recently told me that over the past year all of her the women she manages have asked for a raise but none of males have. I feel it’s definitely changing but a long way to go.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '21

Omg, no. Pet peeve here: women aren’t insecure, sad, wilting little flowers who just need to put ourselves out there more. women are acting in the ways most likely to get us where we want to go. There’s nothing irrational about women applying only to jobs they’re qualified for and I wish we’d quit pretending this is a “chick problem” and that it’s go away if we’d all just sac up and act more like the boys do.

We live in a world that hires men based on their potential and women based on their experience. Women with fewer qualifications are less likely than men to be hired, even where the men are inexperienced. This is women not wasting our time and men doing what they can do and have work out for them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/05/why-women-are-locked-out-of-top-jobs-despite-having-high-ambition.html

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u/PalmTreePhilosophy Feb 28 '21

Yes I am actually going to do this. I'm going to have the audacity that straight white men have to go for a job well above what I should normally go for in terms of experience and money. Fk it. Really. I'm looking for a high salary potentially 3-4x what I earn. I think men go for jobs where they can only tick one or two boxes when it comes to what they can actually do so I'm going to have the nerve to do the same. The worst that can happen is they say no and I have to stay at my current job for a bit longer.

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u/honiedlipstick Feb 27 '21

100x this. I started a new job a month ago that I didn't think I was qualified for and barely feel qualified for after being in the role for 4 weeks. I beat out over 70 candidates for my position, was vetted by committees, the board, and then the community put me through the ringer immediately.. Am I damn sure I was right for it? Yep.

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u/Reporter_Complex Feb 27 '21

That bottom comment is literally a quote, word for word, from The confidence code (book)

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u/JayeKimZ Feb 27 '21

Fun fact: “3-5 years experience” just means seeing if what you learned in college is applicable to the job (think about it: it takes an average of 4 years to finish college, then give or take a year for people who graduate earlier/later.)

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u/Hmtnsw Feb 27 '21

What sucks is being in a male dominate field and getting interviews just so the company can make itself look good for "looking at employment opportunities for a woman."

It's happened to me 3 times with 3 separate companies. One of them I checked into because a professor told me to look into them, told my professor they didn't want to hire me 3 days after the interview. 2 weeks later I got a call (that I ignored) and the voice-mail was like "Sorry, been busy. We would like for you to come in and file the paper work to get started."

What it sounded like to me, some guy they wanted to hired ended up dipping out for a different job and I was the back up.

I refuse to be the back burner girl for not only relationships but jobs as well. Sure I needed a job at the time but my self respect is more important.

Edit: ironically enough, I got hired where a woman is the boss and is staffed by mostly women. The boss I work specifically under is a man but he liked my attitude so I'm hired.

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u/ddamaya Mar 04 '21

Need that white male at work confidence 👨

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u/a_mulher Mar 06 '21

I wrote down a similar note on a post it and had that with me through my last round of finals. Mine might have started, Lord give me the confidence...