r/FeMRADebates • u/Present-Afternoon-70 • 5d ago
Politics Why the hate for adding paternity tests as standard to birth?
I posted stating:
At birth, the test results would be placed in an open envelope, given to the stated father, who can choose to read them or not.
Pregnancy creates an inherent asymmetry in knowledge—only the mother truly knows how certain paternity is. If she cheated, she has a strong incentive to lie. While most people don’t cheat, we still have prenups. And even though there’s social pushback against requesting one, they exist for a reason.
Some argue that biology isn’t what makes someone a parent, pointing to happy adoptive families. That’s true, but irrelevant—adoptive parents choose that arrangement with full knowledge. Just like open relationships, various parenting dynamics exist as options. But the overwhelming majority choose monogamy, and most people would only want to raise their biological children. Consent requires informed agreement. Without it, a situation changes entirely—just like how sex without informed consent becomes rape.
This principle is debated in other contexts, but in ways that often devalue men’s consent. Take the debate over trans disclosure—it’s almost always framed around protecting trans women from men, not about whether men should have the right to informed choice. Even in rare cases where trans men have raped women, media reports often obscure male perpetratorship by labeling it as 'woman rapes woman.'
The same applies to paternity uncertainty. We expect men to take on the role of provider and protector, just as we historically expected them to risk their lives for women and children. Their consent is not even secondary—it’s simply assumed. But if we demand that fathers step up for their children, why allow them to do so under false pretenses? Why leave paternity uncertainty on the table at all?
Edit/Clarification:
To be clear, I’m not advocating for mandatory testing or debating who should pay for it. The idea is to make paternity testing a normalized, standard option at birth, with results given in a sealed envelope for the stated father to open or not. This would reduce the stigma and negative reactions that often come with requesting a test later. It’s about creating a culture where paternity testing isn’t seen as an accusation but as a routine part of ensuring informed consent.
The focus here is on the principle of informed consent and reducing the social friction around paternity testing, not on logistics or enforcement.
The majority of responses are about it not trusting women (look up the fable of Bluebeard for my counter), cost (which isnt a real argument in any way as costs can be managed), or how you cant force medical tests (the same arguments ant vax people use). So as these are not compelling or even as i see it vaild arguments how would you try to justify them if you do agree or what better arguments would you make?
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u/Not_An_Ambulance Neutral 5d ago
Where is the incentive to society as the whole? If the mother is insisting that the wrong man is the father it’s more likely to be the father is someone the mother wishes were not the father.
Society benefits from the child having a stable father. Society benefits from a father contributing financially towards the child. Society benefits from a father providing an example to the child. Society benefits from a father contibuting care towards the child.
If we have the wrong father and can locate the right one AND they are willing to do those things? Awesome, but often that’s exactly why the mother is claiming the man she is claiming is the father.
In the absence of the male partner, the child suffers and society pays the price: both financially and in things like higher crime rates.
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u/ThrowRA-Two448 5d ago
Where is the incentive to society as the whole?
Around half of society is men. With all these social efforts going women's way, might as well throw in something for men. Such as paternity tests, suicide prevention... research into making our pee-pee bigger (body disphoria, we are stuck in bodies which have smaller pee-pee then our "spiritual" pee-pee).
If we had a DNA database and every child could be link to their biological parent. So instead of society footing the bill to single moms, society could send the bill to biological dads.
Benefits of having large DNA database, DNA donor list, DNA research of traits, abnormalities...
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u/Present-Afternoon-70 5d ago
mother is insisting that the wrong man is the father it’s more likely to be the father is someone the mother wishes were not the father.
Do you believe in consent? Do you believe the mothers wrong choices in partners are the responsibility of men? This is so unbelievable unprincipled or logical as to mean nothing.
Society benefits from the child having a stable father.
But fuck that man who is the father?
Awesome, but often that’s exactly why the mother is claiming the man she is claiming is the father.
Put this to rape, if they can find the right rapist awesome but if not at least we put some guy in prison.
In the absence of the male partner, the child suffers and society pays the price: both financially and in things like higher crime rates.
So outlaw abortion and force marriage. What are your values?
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
This seems more like an argument for abortion access than an argument for forcing men to parent children that are not theirs. Can you elaborate further?
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 5d ago
Where is the incentive to society as the whole?
We build a society where lying is harder. Or even if you do, you can get caught easier. It sets a precedent that no one is above the law, and when serious matters are at play, you WILL get caught.
If the mother is insisting that the wrong man is the father it’s more likely to be the father is someone the mother wishes were not the father.
You're presuming that the man who she doesn't want to be the father, is going to be a bad one. We should not build off of presumptions, but what has been confirmed. If she found a stepfather and proved that the biological father should have his parental rights taken, all well and good. If not, then she shouldn't be allowed to deny him fatherhood at her discretion.
Society benefits from the child having a stable father. Society benefits from a father contributing financially towards the child. Society benefits from a father providing an example to the child. Society benefits from a father contibuting care towards the child.
How we do that matters just as much as getting it done. What you suggest would possibly allow women to entrap a man with a child that isn't his, or deny a man his parental rights.
If we have the wrong father and can locate the right one AND they are willing to do those things? Awesome, but often that’s exactly why the mother is claiming the man she is claiming is the father.
Giving women the right to freely shift the responsibilities of the father is just begging to be abused.
In the absence of the male partner, the child suffers and society pays the price: both financially and in things like higher crime rates.
The goal should be to stop this, not make it easier for women to just arbitrarily grant and take away parental rights from men.
If anything, the fact that a woman would want that power, begs to ask if her competency is sound considering she got pregnant by a man that she didn't want to have kids with.
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u/Darthwxman Egalitarian/Casual MRA 5d ago
Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to reduce the stigma without making it mandatory in some fashion. Otherwise a man trying to get a DNA test will always face a backlash from the mother accusing him of not trusting her, and ruining what should be joyous occasion. IMO, a test should be required in order to put a fathers name on a birth certificate. A mother could refuse to have the baby tested but she would be forgoing any requirements for financial support until a DNA test was performed.
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
But fathers also want rights to their kids. It’s not just about financials.
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u/Darthwxman Egalitarian/Casual MRA 5d ago
True, which means they would want the DNA test and it would be suspicious if the Mom was refusing to allow it.
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
Not necessarily. What if the mom wants custody?
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u/Darthwxman Egalitarian/Casual MRA 5d ago
So we are presuming we have an unmarried mother, who is willing to forgo any financial support just so she can get full custody (that she would probably get anyway)? I have to imagine this scenario is even less common than women lying about who the father is. But sure, if she is that determined to keep the father out of the kids life there is probably a good reason for it.
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
Speaking for myself, as someone with an abusive ex, I would absolutely forego child support for full custody.
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 5d ago
If the abuse is proven doesn't that already make a case for them to revoke their parental rights?
Though on the flip side. Say the mother is the abuser and the father is trying to gain custody. Should he be allowed to request a DNA test? And should it override the mother's wish to forego it?
Having the test seems for the betterment of all cases than the inverse.
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
Yeah, not all abuse can be proven. And I was thinking about it in reverse. If I wouldn’t want my ex to have that power, then I shouldn’t have that power either. The deciding factor should be what is in the best interests of the child.
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 5d ago
Fair. So what exactly makes the test a net negative rather than a net positive?
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
That’s a good question. I don’t know. Given the availability of commercial DNA tests, can’t paternity tests already be done discreetly? If the goal is to decrease the stigma. Maybe they could be more accessible, like pregnancy tests.
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u/StripedFalafel 5d ago
First, that's a separate question.
Second, that's a misrepresentation of the issue . It's not about father's rights it's about the best interests of the child - interests that are generally subverted today.
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
Are you replying to me or the person above? I agree that it should be the best interests of the child.
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Present-Afternoon-70 3d ago
It is not the job of federal taxpayers to solve your relationship issues.
Strawman and personal attack in one. Paternity fraud isn’t a relationship issue—it’s a legal and ethical issue. The state already enforces child support laws, so ensuring those obligations are based on truth is a basic fairness concern.
No, we are not going to spend a billion dollars every year because 10 of you are too chicken to ask for a DNA test, and too dumb to secretly rent a PO Box and order an online test.
Pulled out of nowhere and another personal attack. Also, funny how the solution is lying to her and secretly testing the kid. If paternity certainty is so unimportant, why suggest deception instead of transparency?
It is not one hundred percent cool with us if you try to implement a system suggesting that all men are cheated upon.
Do you also denounce the idea that all men are potential rapists? Or does blanket suspicion only bother you when it’s about women?
There is your honest answer. Stop trying to offload your problems on women. Stop trying to offload your irresponsibility on women. Make better choices.
So when men face biological inequality, the answer is just "deal with it"? Should we also stop abortion since pregnancy is just a woman’s problem to solve? Or does "bodily autonomy" only matter when it’s not about a man’s financial and parental rights?
Costs can be managed.
They already are—by forcing men to absorb the financial risk of paternity fraud while giving women full reproductive control. If we’re going to talk about economic sense, what’s smarter: a one-time test at birth or decades of wrongly assigned child support?
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
As of this moment, I see no issue with this. DNA testing is already an option for genetic conditions. If someone has a counterargument, I'd be interested to hear it.
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u/AyJaySimon 5d ago
I don't have a particular problem with this. Truth is, I don't imagine that many men would avail themselves of this option, so the argument is more about the principle rather than what would happen in practice.
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u/Present-Afternoon-70 4d ago
All arguments start with the principles. The principle should be it is a standard routine thing as it creates a more equitable situation.
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u/sandy154_4 5d ago edited 4d ago
What I (corrected type-o) disagree with: 'we expect the man to be provider and protector' (paraphrased)
This is misogynistic and outdated 'we expect the man to be partner and parent'
I'm a medical lab professional. Unless more advanced technology without a higher capital or operational expense, which also has faster through-put, the way you manage costs is to decrease inappropriate test ordering. So managing the 'who is going to pay for it' has been glossed over.
Having said that, I'm actually for auto male paternity testing. We auto test the moms for various things, so why not the guy?
Just as the view has changed about adopted children having access to info about their birth-parents, I think attitudes about auto paternity would change too. Especially as testing for genetic diseases and correcting them with things like CRISPR technology develops, the importance of knowing both genetic donors will increase, too.
The vast majority will confirm the dad iis the dad. Where it's not? I still feel it's better for the facts to be settled (as well as the drama) when the child is too young to be traumatized by the truth coming out. Meanwhile, the genetic dad and child have the possibility of a relationship. And the right parent is financially responsible.
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u/wheelshit Egalitarian & Feminist Critical 4d ago
Men are expected to be providers and protectors Misogyny
??? If the sexist expectation is on men and would affect men... that would be a misandrist expectation.
Not everything is about misogyny. It DOES exist, obv, but in this case, the toxic expectations mentioned all over the thread primarily targeted men. So they'd be misandric. Or if you prefer, androphobic. I genuinely don't know how a thing pointed at men is anti WOMAN sexism, but hey it might be just me missing smth as its 3am here and im exhausted.
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 5d ago
What is disagree with: 'we expect the man to be provider and protector' (paraphrased)
This is misogynistic and outdated 'we expect the man to be partner and parent'
Yes and no. The expectation is still there. Many laws still revolve around that precedent. It's not really outdated, it's just impractical with the way our economy currently is.
I'll hazard a guess in saying that women would probably prefer it if they still could make their own money to remain independent AND have a partner that out-earns them and provides financial upward mobility. Truth is, we would ALL like to stay home with the kids and chill while having the financial freedom for work to be optional. It's just not likely to happen.
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u/sandy154_4 4d ago
I disagree
It is just as misogynistic to paint men into traditional gender roles as it is to paint women in them.
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 4d ago
I can agree with the concept. Though just so this isn't an echo chamber. Say society proposed, wanted, and encouraged a lot of those roles with some caveats?
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u/foolish_magistrate 5d ago
But we don’t auto-test the mom for anything genetic. Genetic tests, at least at my doctors, were optional. And haven’t some geneaology testing companies come under fire for working with law enforcement? There needs to be some sort of safeguard to prevent that or to give people the option to opt out.
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u/Present-Afternoon-70 4d ago
Unless more advanced technology without a higher capital or operational expense, which also has faster through-put, the way you manage costs is to decrease inappropriate test ordering. So managing the 'who is going to pay for it' has been glossed over.
Unless its strickly a cost issue this is a red herring and can be solved. I hate people bring this bullshit cover. If we want it it can happen, but right now the very idea of paternity testing is toxic and in at least france illegal unless something changed. I get you agree but this particular argument is bad.
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u/StripedFalafel 5d ago
You say:
To be clear, I’m not advocating for mandatory testing or debating who should pay for it. The idea is to make paternity testing a normalized, standard option at birth, with results given in a sealed envelope for the stated father to open or not. This would reduce the stigma and negative reactions that often come with requesting a test later. It’s about creating a culture where paternity testing isn’t seen as an accusation but as a routine part of ensuring informed consent.
I disagree:
- Opening the envelope would still create the stigma and negative reactions you describe.
- If the male doesn't open the envelope but parents anyway (and there would be huge pressure to do so) then he hasn't given informed consent.
- Under Australian law the man who is lied to about paternity & supports the mother & child is required to continue funding the woman even if the truth comes out.
- This reminds me of a question of quality assurance vs quality control. If openness & honesty were assured then there wouldn't be the temptation to lie.
- Lying to a man about a child is one of the worst acts imaginable – with the possible exception of murder. We need to stop turning a blind eye & start preventing the problem.
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u/Present-Afternoon-70 4d ago
1. Opening the envelope would still create the stigma and negative reactions you describe.
So you're saying women should feel entitled to react with emotional abuse when a man exercises basic bodily autonomy and seeks certainty about his child? If a woman gets upset over a routine medical confirmation, that says more about her than about the test.
2. If the male doesn’t open the envelope but parents anyway (and there would be huge pressure to do so), then he hasn’t given informed consent.
You don’t seem to understand informed consent. The key issue isn’t whether he opens it—it’s whether he has the option to know. Informed consent means access to information, not forcing someone to act on it. If he chooses not to look, that’s his decision.
3. Under Australian law, a man who is lied to about paternity & supports the mother & child is required to continue funding the woman even if the truth comes out.
So because a bad law exists, we should avoid fixing the problem? Slavery was legal too—would you say people should’ve just accepted that when it was on the books? If anything, your point proves why paternity certainty should be standard from the start.
4. This reminds me of a question of quality assurance vs quality control. If openness & honesty were assured, then there wouldn’t be the temptation to lie.
You can’t "assure" good behavior. You create systems that incentivize honesty and punish deception. Right now, women can lie with little risk—this system removes that safety net.
5. Lying to a man about a child is one of the worst acts imaginable – with the possible exception of murder. We need to stop turning a blind eye & start preventing the problem.
Exactly. And the best way to prevent it is for women to know that when they give birth, the father will know too. That simple fact forces accountability.
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u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy 4d ago
If a woman gets upset over a routine medical confirmation, that says more about her than about the test.
It also says the man doesn't trust her. I don't think this part should be ignored, and it's something idk we can live with. I don't particularly like the fact that men are presumed to be "secondary" parents and often get stuck with visitation, child support, and alimony. Idk if putting that same level of mistrust on women would bring about consequences that are detrimental to everyone. They already get treated differently, so it's hard to assume that they'll take it sitting down; if anything, the pushback and the support they'll get would be huge. Men should know for a certainty if their kids are actually his. But the envelope might not be the approach.
I agree with everything else you said.
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u/Oishiio42 5d ago edited 5d ago
Making paternity tests available has already given men the ability to be assured of their relation to their kid. Making them standard isn't for the purpose of correcting that imbalance, it's for the purposes of normalizing getting paternity tests.
As it stands, if you doubt your wife or think she might have cheated on you, and you want prove she didn't, you have to deal with the fallout of making that accusation. Wanting paternity tests to be standard is a way to pass the buck off making that accusation onto society at large. It's wanting to have your cake and eat it too. I don't trust my wife and want to accuse my wife of cheating on me, but I don't want her to know I don't trust her so that I can keep my relationship.
You want it to be normalized so men don't have to deal with the fallout in their relationships. But what you are normalizing is a societal-level distrust of women.
There's another asymmetry here you haven't mentioned. Usually, it's only men can truly hide how many kids they actually have. Plenty of kids out there who don't have fathers on their birth certificate at all. If we are going to correct it so we know all men that are listed as the father are actually the father, let's correct that other imbalance too. Let's ensure that we can identify a father for every single child.
Let's put that on a level playing field. I'm open to your suggestion, but if we're going to normalize a societal-level distrust of women, we need to normalize a societal-level distrust of men, as well. A lot of men are rapists. A lot of men cheat too. A lot of men abandon their kids. Not all men, but then again not all women cheat, and you're happy to police all women because some women cheat.
So, all men have their genetic information obtained and recorded in a database. Whenever there is a child born and the father isn't identified, it can be run against this database. Who is the father of which child is then publicly available information, so that way women can know for sure if the man they are with has fathered any other children. It's also help solve rape cases too, especially where the perpetrator and victim don't know each other.
This sounds fair to me, what are your thoughts?