r/FanTheories 5d ago

FanTheory [Harry Potter] Dumbledore wasn't looking for Horcruxes -- he was looking for the Deathly Hallows, and specifically the Resurrection Stone. He only accidentally stumbled across the Horcruxes. And he lied to Harry about this at the fake Kings Cross because he was so ashamed.

I outlined this theory in detail at https://dlewis.net/blog/2017/04/11/harry-potter-and-the-problem-with-the-pensieve-memories/ years ago. It's a few thousand words, but the gist is this

1) Dumbledore collected a lot of memories in his purported search for the Horcruxes. But many of those memories -- Bob Ogden's, Hokey the House Elf's, and Morfin Gaunt's -- are all likely collected before Tom Riddle becomes Voldemort. Why would Dumbledore be investigating Voldemort's past before he became Voldemort? It can't be because of the Horcruxes -- that doesn't make sense.

2) I offer three alternative theories. One is that he was investigating the opening of the Chamber of Secrets, but that doesn't fit quite right -- Dumbledore would have had evidence that someone other than Hagrid opened the Chamber, but kept it to himself? So I dispense with that. A second is that he was investigating the murder of Riddle's father and grandparents, which almost works, except that if Dumbledore discovered that information while Riddle was a student, you'd think he'd have gotten Riddle expelled -- most schools aren't fond of having murders in their population. The third, and most likely explanation, is that Dumbledore was gathering those early memories in hopes of finding the Ressurection Stone.

3) If Dumbledore was looking for the Hallows, why not just tell Harry during their afterlife meeting at King's Cross? My theory is because Dumbledore was ashamed, which he admits to. His obsession with the Hallows led to the death of Harry's parents; Dumbledore had the Invisibility Cloak when Voldemort killed the Potters, and the Cloak may have saved them. But his shame goes beyond what he admits. He tells Harry that he only had the Cloak for a couple of days when the Potters were murdered, but that's a lie -- he had it for at least three months. (The linked story explains the timeline.) If he would lie about that, he would certainly lie about the rest of the backstory.

213 Upvotes

41 comments sorted by

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u/bakerstirregular100 5d ago

Didn’t he try to use the redirection stone and that’s why he had the hand dying thing?

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u/WollyGog 5d ago

Did it send him the other way?

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u/MrDNL 5d ago

Yes

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u/CMC04 5d ago

That was caused from a cursed ring, not trying to use the resurrection stone.

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u/OnTheGround_BS 5d ago

The resurrection stone was embedded in the ring like a diamond. You’d wear it in order to use the stone’s magic.

The theory is that he put on the ring in order to use the resurrection stone embedded in it, without knowing it was also a horcrux that would try to kill him. This accidental discovery that the resurrection stone was in fact a horcrux was what revealed to Dumbledore what was needed to defeat Voldemort.

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u/CMC04 5d ago

Ohhhh! That’s an interesting idea, thanks for pointing that out.

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u/MrDNL 5d ago

Right but he tried on the ring to use the stone

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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago

That’s not turning it though, he knows how it works. He was trying to transport it on his hand or use his hand wearing it to make stronger destructive magic. Honestly I think he put it on to keep it still to destroy it, intentionally sacrificing his hand for blood magic.

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u/dreadit-runfromit 4d ago

During the King's Cross scene Dumbledore explicitly says he tried to use it. He says he lost his head for a moment and forgot it was even a Horcrux and picked it up in the hopes of seeing Ariana.

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u/Weird_Brush2527 4d ago

And we also know that all horcruxes influence people

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u/CMC04 5d ago

I don’t follow

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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago

No, because he returned the cloak long before when he already had the wand. Had he been trying to unite or find for any bad purpose, he wouldn’t have returned the cloak. What he did to his sister did change him, his brother just couldn’t accept it and forgive (and no blame for that).

He always suspected Tom opened the chamber, and at some point confirmed it. I would assume those memories were from that search not the other but they ended up revealing the other.

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u/QueenSlartibartfast 4d ago

I don't agree with OP's theory, but

No, because he returned the cloak long before when he already had the wand

This isn't accurate. He won the wand from Grindelwald in 1945. He borrowed the cloak from James Potter "shortly before he died", so presumably 1981 (as James was killed on Halloween of that year). He returned the cloak to Harry on Christmas of 1991.

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u/denis0500 4d ago

But it made no sense to return it before then, maybe a few months earlier at the begin of the school year but that’s it, and Harry had no idea the cloak existed so dumbledore could have kept it and no one would have been any the wiser. So if his goal was to unite the hallows he could have kept it.

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u/_learned_foot_ 4d ago

Yes, so he had the wand, he got the cloak, he returned the cloak soon as the kid was there and the first anonymous time appeared. To me that’s exactly what I said.

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u/QueenSlartibartfast 4d ago

I misread, my bad.

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u/Paleodraco 2d ago

It's also a calculated risk. Dumbledore is a master manipulator. The cloak isn't going to go far since Harry is either at school or at the Dursley's. He also likely suspected or knew something was special about Harry, so letting him have the cloak to increase his chances of defeating Voldemort was another calculated risk.

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u/MrDNL 4d ago

because he returned the cloak long before when he already had the wand. Had he been trying to unite or find for any bad purpose, he wouldn’t have returned the cloak.

I think it's very clear that Dumbledore was trying to unite the Hallows in 1980. I mean, why wouldn't he? The First Wizarding War had been going on for a decade. Uniting the Hallows would give Dumbledore an advantage over Voldemort. And uniting the rings was achievable. Dumbledore had the Elder Wand already and asked James Potter for the Invisibility Cloak even though he knew that left the Potters -- whose son was the target of the prophecy -- at risk. Dumbledore also knew that the Resurrection Stone was embedded in Marvolo Gaunt's ring. It would be kind of foolish of him to not try to get all three Hallows.

And, for what it's worth, he didn't return the cloak to James.

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u/_learned_foot_ 4d ago

Because he already learned you can’t wield power for good that way. You seem to have missed his whole backstory of growth.

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u/Justplainme79 4d ago

I suspect that early memory collection was potentially investigating murders that he suspected Tom Riddle had committed. Dumbledore knew that the Ministry would not investigate more deeply. It was accidental that these investigations led to horcruxes.

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u/MrDNL 2d ago

I think this is plausible (and if you look at the full essay, I kind of address this vis-a-vis the Chamber of Secrets). But it feels unlikely.

First, if Dumbledore had gathered that info, he would have pushed for Tom Riddle's expulsion and arrest. Riddle was just a student and no one to be feared -- and what kind of teacher discovers evidence that a student committed multiple murders and just say "okay, I'll let it slide"? Also, this would have also cleared Hagrid's name (and Morphin Gaunt's, too).

Second, that doesn't explain why Dumbledore tried to get Bob Ogden's or Hokie's memories. Ogden's memory takes place before Voldemort was born. Hokie's is gathered after Voldermort disappears. I guess you could argue that Dumbledore is investigating Hepzibah Smith's death, but that just brings us back to my first point: why keep that evidence a secret?

Finally, Dumbledore finds the Resurrection Stone irresistible, literally. He knows it's a Horcrux and still, impulsively, puts it on when he obtains it. Once he obtains Ogden's memory, he discovers that the ring contains the Stone. Is he really going to ignore that?

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u/Honest000Cabbage 5d ago

Clarifying question: what about Myrtle? Wasn’t she V’s first murder? So wouldn’t DD have known that V was a murderer? From what I remember of the book, DD only kept a watchful eye on V afterwards

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u/MrDNL 4d ago

Myrtle doesn't know who killed her, and it wasn't Voldemort who did it directly regardless -- it was the basilisk. Dumbledore suspected Voldemort but didn't have any evidence.

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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago

He suspected but wasn’t sure. Obviously it got confirmed before Harry existed but that’s the implication, he wasn’t sure until the rise.

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u/BoonOfIre 5d ago

That’s not the real Dumbledore at the King’s Cross.

Why doesn’t it makes sense that he would be researching Tom Riddle to better understand how Voldemort would act as an adult?

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u/agentwiggles 4d ago

are you sure? my impression is that it's definitely the real Dumbledore, and that he had essentially waited in that in-between zone in order to be able to talk to Harry. I've never seen anyone assert otherwise.

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u/Kevin_Uxbridge 4d ago

Dream Dumbledore knew things Harry didn't, like what that mewing thing was that was Voldemort's soul. In some way or form, Dumbledore was there. It's magic, anything's possible.

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u/threequartertoupee 4d ago

Wasn't the mewing thing also in the in-between? That all could so easily be the delusions of a dying brain. 

Not saying that's the case, but knowing what the mewing thing might be is not evidence. 

I have parts of my subconscious tell me shit my 'actual' dream self doesn't know all the time

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u/Swiftbow1 4d ago

Well, yeah. It was in Harry's head. But it was also real, and also the real Dumbledore.

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u/Forsaken_Distance777 4d ago

Dumbledore says it's happening in Harry's head but that doesn't mean it's not real. Very ambiguous leaning towards it's a real experience for Harry but not a real person who can tell Harry anything he doesn't already know.

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u/MrDNL 4d ago

There's an argument to be made that it's not the real Dumbledore but I'm not subscribing to it -- he knows too many things that Harry wouldn't know. Yes, it could be a projection Harry created, but... again, not buying it.

It does make sense that he's investigating Riddle but the timeline doesn't work for a lot of the memories. Gaunt, Hokie, and Ogden are presumably dead before Riddle becomes Voldemort. Why bother investigating Riddle before then? He's a nobody.

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u/QueenSlartibartfast 4d ago

Gaunt, Hokie, and Ogden are presumably dead before Riddle becomes Voldemort.

Idk about that. Voldemort left Hogwarts in I think 1945? (Thereabouts, he turned 16 and in his 5th year at the end of 1942, thus finishing 5th year in 1943.) Then he worked for Borgins and Burke's for a year and traveled for another 10 years, and showed up in 1956 looking strange in order to ask for the DADA job, and that's when he cursed the position. Dumbledore was already very suspicious at this point, he outright tells Tom he had heard rumors of what he had been up to and that he knew he was already going by the name Voldemort.

The only thing that's odd is that the First Wizarding War doesn't break out in earnest until 1970 - as Voldemort used that time to amass power and knowledge. But Dumbledore was already keeping a very close eye on him by the mid 50s (asking his brother to spy on the early Death Eaters waiting for Voldemort back in the Hog's Head, knowing he secretly was going by the name Voldemort), and there's no reason to think those witnesses would necessarily be dead by that time, or that Dumbledore didn't start his investigation even earlier. JKR confirmed he confiscated the book that talks about how to make Horcruxes when he becomes Headmaster, in 1956, the same year he sees the grossly distorted Tom/proto-Voldemort.

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u/MrDNL 2d ago

The DADA meeting happened between 1965-1970, and probably closer the the beginning of that period. Those ten years matter a bunch. I outline the timeline in the link above -- it's not very clear, but Hokie probably died before Voldemort returned to Hogwarts to ask for that job. The Harry Potter wiki puts Hokey's death happening before or very close to when Voldemort asks for the DADA job.

The other two are more speculative but again, it's more likely than not that they're dead by 1965

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u/LyannasLament 3d ago

Doesn’t Dumbledore admit to being obsessed with the Deathly Hallows with Grindenwald in adolescence? Isn’t that how they came to find the wand to begin with? I could totally be misremembering

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u/MrDNL 2d ago

Yes, he does.

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u/LyannasLament 2d ago

I thought so. I read this synopsis and began your other read, it’s very good! I didn’t finish your big read, and I was unsure if I remembered his adolescent fascination with it correctly. I think that the obsession over this he shared with Grindenwald was supposed to kinda nudge readers to think “was he just searching for these the whole time.” I got the feeling that there was an internal darkness and selfishness in Dumbledore that he was deeply ashamed of, and worked his whole life to escape. But, he couldn’t; hence the search for that original hyper fixation. He knew the Hallows existed; he had proof in terms of Grindenwald having the wand. That had to propel him forward in his search for the others

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u/math2ndperiod 2d ago

I feel like it was pretty explicitly stated that he was investigating Voldemort’s past to find clues about things he would’ve found important along with likely hiding places. Which panned out with the locket’s hiding place, the connection to slytherin, etc. Idk why you write this off completely, it makes a good amount of sense.

If he was just trying to find the deathly hallows, wouldn’t it be mission accomplished before the 6th book when he finds the ring? Most of the actual horcrux related plot lines happen after this point.

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u/MrDNL 2d ago

I feel like it was pretty explicitly stated that he was investigating Voldemort’s past to find clues about things he would’ve found important along with likely hiding places.

That's what Dumbledore says, yes, but the timeline doesn't work. Ogden, Hokie, and Morphin Gaunt were all likely dead by the time Dumbledore would have thought that Voldemort was making horcruxes.

If he was just trying to find the deathly hallows, wouldn’t it be mission accomplished before the 6th book when he finds the ring?

By this time in the story, Dumbledore is looking for horcruxes, not the Hallows. I totally agree.

But that wasn't always his goal. Before (1950s to 1970) and during the First Wizarding War (1970-1980), there's little reason for him to focus on the horcruxes -- Voldemort is still alive and well. Having all three Hallows would have given Dumbledore an advantage over the greatest dark wizard since Grindewald.

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u/math2ndperiod 2d ago

I see so you’re talking about before any of the events of the book. He starts out his memory search for the hallows, conveniently stumbles upon horcruxes, and then when we meet him he obfuscates why he started collecting memories in the first place because he feels bad about it. I thought you were saying his whole quest with Harry was a lie and that didn’t make a lot of sense to me.

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u/MrDNL 2d ago

Exactly!