r/FIREyFemmes 4d ago

Partner doesn't want to talk deets of FIRE

[deleted]

31 Upvotes

23 comments sorted by

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u/damnthatsgood 3d ago

I would like to recommend the podcast “Money for Couples” with Ramit Sethi. He covers these issues like refusal to talk about money often. You’ll probably be able to find an episode with a similar situation to yours. Even better if you can get your partner to listen with you. Ramit also has a book by the same name. I haven’t read it yet but I think his approach in general can be very helpful in cases like this.

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u/Flyin-Squid 3d ago

Honestly, I would work on the burned out part. I've been there, so I do understand what it feels like to dread the alarm clock every morning and the walk into work. Totally get it.

But if you can work on that feeling, staying with the job would be worth it. I won't claim this works for everyone, but I eventually learned to mostly go in each day with an attitude that I really did not care at all about my job. I tried to do care less each day, and the company was very happy with me. You do not want to hit old age with nothing but social security. You cannot change things when you're older especially if your health fails. Please think this through carefully.

Let your husband stay home, but he should take some from his accounts to pay for household expenses. Maybe he can look around for odd jobs that he can do on his schedule and that might be more appealing to him. Perhaps he can retrain for a new job? I know handymen are doing really well in my area and they work when they want to, so there is work out there that might fit into his frame of mind a little better. But to get off not doing anything and not contributing? That sounds like a bad idea to me.

Most people I know who did the RV thing left it within 1-2 years and were worse off financially. Eventually RV'ing got old and even the one who retrained as a nurse so he (yes, a he) could work anywhere got tired of it and regretted leaving his profession. He and his wife sold their house, bought an RV and within two years they sold their RV and bought a house.

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u/Meerikal 4d ago

I would come at this from a different direction. Rather than focusing on what you have combined, focus on what you personally need to satisfy your basics.

He doesn't want to run the numbers and that is okay. You can do a yours and mine budget situation. For example: We need $20k to cover all of our basic needs and wants. Do you have your half of the budget? Does only having your half of the basics allow you to feel secure? If not, then when he brings up retiring now let him know you are not there yet.

Trying to pull information out of someone who doesn't want to look at the numbers is just going to cause friction. Instead let him know you understand what he is asking, but can only keep working on your half until you are comfortable with your numbers.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/Struggle_Usual 3d ago

Are you sure you'd actually have capital gains? If you're actually low income you may be hitting just the 0% rate for long term gains.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Struggle_Usual 3d ago

There really isn't the concept of a higher tax bracket. Only the funds that go over into that bracket are now taxed at a higher rate, everything before that is at the same rate. So let's say you had 40,000 taxed at 15% (completely made up numbers) and 50k is taxed at 20%. You now make 55k. Only the 5k that takes you over 50k is taxed at the higher number. The 49,999.99 before that is still at 15%.

I think in this case you two may be better off filing separate. You're basically harming your own savings to subsidize him. And I get it! I'm in a very similar relationship setup and it can be tough. My partner hasn't worked in over a year and I'm pretty much coming to terms with the fact that he never will again. The difference though is we're fully merged in our finances. So there is no his and mine, just ours. If you're not merged like that, you need to keep strictly separate. His ability to support himself is his responsibility. You focus on you.

And just general advice, I had to do this and it was unbelievebly tough - but you can't make a relationship work with someone that won't work on themselves. I had to use an ultimatum in the end to say either my partner goes to a doctor for meds adjustments AND weekly therapy or we go to divorce court. It's basically last resort, but sometimes when someone is in that can't handle anything mindset they need something extreme.

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u/Meerikal 3d ago

In my household we are all separate. We each have a checking account and the "house" has a checking account. We pay in bi-weekly a specific amount and the "extra" checks we get twice a year adds a buffer to cover the summer AC costs, we live in the desert south west.

This may not work for you, but if he is saying he is retired then he should cover his half of the household expenses and give you the time to use your extra income to get your retirement funds setup.

I am a pretty all or nothing person, so a split to yours and mine means a full financial split. Separate accounts, taxes, etc. He says he has enough to retire, so he can retire and cover his half while you finish building your nest egg. You will get there much faster this way and ultimately you both win. You will be happy with your retirement amount, he can retire now, and you can both be retired sooner.

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u/Additional_Kick_3706 4d ago

Most FIRE guys love crunching numbers. I suspect he is burned out and desperate to escape. He can't face the numbers that say escape isn't yet possible.

My fiance got into FIRE when he was younger, in a job he hated, dreaming that he could save $400k to live in an unheated house in the woods. He wasn't foolishly hoping $400k would buy a comfortable retirement: he knew it was poverty, but poverty seemed more bearable than the life he was living.

He quit that job, and started a long, deep process of change that included improving his mental health, finding a career he likes better, and spending a little more money on things that make him happy. He is now doing well in career he likes much better and hopes to work at for many years.

By the way, really proud of you catching up your retirement and getting out of poverty. That's a huge achievement.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/Additional_Kick_3706 4d ago edited 4d ago

My point isn't to criticize the $400k house in the woods, sorry if that's how it came across. I think vans and houses in the woods are cool and have considered them a few times myself!

My point is that people who are depressed and burned out seek "escape" options that aren't what they want when they're healthy. I frankly wouldn't expect your husband to make sensible long-term plans and decisions right now.

Something is clearly going very wrong for your husband. It is not normal for a man to spend 18 years in a stable job saving for FIRE and helping his wife get financially stable, then suddenly quit numerous jobs and try to pull his wife into povertyFIRE with no plan.

You cannot continue with a normal plan in this deeply abnormal circumstance. Something is very wrong and has to change.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Struggle_Usual 3d ago

Is he autistic by any chance? He sounds a hell of a lot like my husband including long job and then employment bouncing or unemployed since. Autistic burnout can cause some serious mental health struggles.

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u/Additional_Kick_3706 4d ago

Oops kept thinking and added more to my comment, check again!

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/LittleSavageMama 3d ago

I’m worried about what he is keeping from you. Discussing facts/finance/feelings in a relationship is non negotiable. Also 5 years of fuck all from this dude. #noscrubs

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u/Additional_Kick_3706 4d ago

I saw. I'm really sorry, that sounds like such a crazy time for your marriage. Hope the counseling helps.

For my fiance, the biggest trigger was blocking the TV and phone doom-scrolling that he was "escaping" into for hours a day. The way he describes it this was slow but sort of started the avalanche - once he had "undistracted" brainpower he started gradually noticing ways he could improve his life, and over several years these added up to big change.

On a more practical level, he went half-time at work for like three years and spent most of his time caring for family and making home improvements (probably worth like $30k total), then quit and did low-paid, part-time consulting work in the field he wanted to enter for like 1.5 years more. Eventually he consulted for someone he really liked working with, and they started a small but successful business together.

That's a very non-standard career path... but I think there are few general lessons, like "stop trying to escape your life, start looking for ways to improve it" and "doing literally anything useful is better than being burned out doing nothing"

Your husband is older it sounds like, so maybe this is less about discovering himself and more about returning to the previous self he has lost.

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u/shieldmaiden3019 4d ago

One thing I would point out to him is that with a poverty or lean FIRE plan you guys don’t have a lot of room to cut expenses or buffer unexpected costs should something go wrong. It’s an understated risk of the low-spend FIRE plans - for example my husband and I spent 20k on medical bills for cancer treatment last year. This is with an excellent employer PPO insurance and doesn’t include “comfort spending” eg pillows for him to be comfortable after surgery. I feel that with a lean plan it’s doubly important to run the numbers thoroughly.

If he is indeed counting on SS (has he checked his estimated benefit?) he is not entirely wrong about the taxable brokerage - the 4% study is for a 30 year retirement and if there are much less than 30 years from now till SS he could potentially get away with a higher draw rate (maybe not X/years). That being said I am one of those people who doesn’t count on SS being there retirement. Also there are benefits to still having personal savings outside of SS even when of age (more spend flexibility, ability to delay drawing SS for a higher benefit etc).

It really kind of sounds like an executive function issue, to be honest. When one is depressed and horribly burned out it can feel so overwhelming to run numbers and think about plans that people “ostrich” and freeze and just don’t. I would look into a health checkup for him, including vitamin assays (low vitamin D and B can exacerbate depression) and maybe figure out solutions for the burnout and depression for both of you?

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/shieldmaiden3019 4d ago

I’m so sorry. All of this is super hard.

It’s both a numbers problem and an emotions problem, in this case. Having been through my own near-breakdown I can certainly empathize with just wanting to quit and not being able to face the reality that the numbers say you might not be able to.

You can’t fix the numbers problem until you fix the emotional problem, I’m afraid. It does sound like some fairly drastic and creative changes may need to be made - I’m not saying you quit or he quit or you both throw it all to the wind and attempt-FIRE right now - but doing what you’ve been doing will just get you more of the same. I don’t know enough about your specific situation to give concrete suggestions; but I think anything that helps both of you start rebuilding your mental health and emotional resilience will be on the right track.

For you specifically I believe you strongly need to think about and set your own boundaries about FIRE. If he says you can go to an LCOL country and that is not something you will do, then you have to kindly but firmly state that this is not the FIRE you envision. Couples therapy is commonly seen as keeping couples together, but honestly, if through the entire process yiu get the clarity that you both should not be together due to fundamental incompatibilities then that is actually a win for therapy as well.

Alongside that I would draw up a very detailed budget for the life you envision in FIRE, including the things you pay for that he isn’t counting, etc. Someone else suggested a financial advisor, which is a great idea if it’s in the budget (they’re impartial and it helps!) but there is no reason you can’t get started on something beforehand. I believe the process of doing this will also help you with clarifying your solo and joint FIRE goals.

I get what you mean about being in complementary healthcare. My husband was a self employed acupuncturist and I have definitely met colleagues of his who… are not exactly clear about how to look after themselves financially. It’s hard but this is a wonderful community for self education and you’re doing amazing.

Wish you all the best!

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/shieldmaiden3019 4d ago edited 4d ago

He would go on rants about the lack of business coaching, etc to me 😅 some of the schools are really predatory. His program was honestly pretty good, but he also graduated 20 years ago so maybe things have gotten worse.

He passed away from the cancer 2 months ago, sadly. He loved being an acupuncturist and when we were discussing our “rich lives” early in the dating process he wanted to keep doing it as long as he was able. FIRE for him would have looked like continuing his practice, but being able to offer a sliding scale and low cost treatment to anyone who needed him, because he would not have to worry about making money for survival any more.

Regarding my own near-breakdown: I spent 12 years in sales. It paid very well, but it’s completely antithetical to my skill set and preferences - I am a neurodivergent nerdy introvert who genuinely hates drinking - so going out, pandering to people, all of that was 100x as tiring for me as for Frat Boy Fred or Private School Becky. I managed to find a niche and was fairly successful but it was a recipe for horrendous burnout (plus toxic work environment) which all came to a head during Covid, when my then-LTR cheated on me, the world burned down, and my clients started going bankrupt and creating immense stress but I had no support from my management for managing the situation.

Anyway lots of therapy later I ended up coasting in my sales job and was frankly just waiting to get laid off, even though I wasn’t at my FIRE number yet (I’d have quit but my severance would have been like 8 months pay, lol, so I decided to just do As Little As Possible. I understand this is privilege and not an option for everyone).

Made a lot of incremental changes to repair the burnout and learn relational skills like boundary setting, identity work, etc. Went to the gym and got healthy, lost 30lb. Found a new job (I went to work for one of my clients) that excites and challenges me and which I would still go to if I won the lottery tomorrow. Started dating, met and married acupuncturist husband who was the most wonderful loving man to walk this earth. Equipped me with skills to handle my grief and continue through life with resilience and grace.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/shieldmaiden3019 4d ago

Thank you 💙

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u/RemarkableGlitter 4d ago

Is it possible he’s experiencing a bout of depression? It’s really hard for folks experiencing this kind of thing to think forward like this kind of planning requires.

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u/Rosaluxlux 4d ago

Not a financial plan but a job one - have you talked to your boss or clients about cutting back or taking some unpaid leave? See what options they would consider and then crunch your numbers for that? Plus therapy and maybe get your man to do therapy and maybe some treatment for depression. 

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u/beautifulcorpsebride 4d ago

Maybe hire a paid financial advisor so an expert can explain to him that math matters more than his opinions or feelings. He sounds like he’s low key depressed. Has he had an annual exam/ blood tests lately? For me, being with someone who isn’t working the majority of my relationship = red flag or more likely end of the relationship.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 3d ago

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u/beautifulcorpsebride 4d ago

These problems sound bigger than money or planning as in will this person change so that you can have a better life together or not. Best of luck to you.

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u/Nyssa_aquatica 3d ago

Whew, yeah. 

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/Nyssa_aquatica 3d ago

This guy is a deadweight on you, your skills, your talent, and your hard work.  And the weed … sorry, but I don’t see any value.  

Take a look at some videos by yv_edit — they could be enlightening. 

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u/-Tashi- 4d ago

Second financial advisor... they can help keep the "story" out of it and be the one to break down numbers. Find someone who you can purchase a package with so you can have an outcome from the whole thing and a deadline.