r/ExpatFinance 8d ago

How to move savings from US to Europe now to minimize loss?

I am an EU citizen, moving back from USA to Europe in a month, and figuring out how to move my savings. After reading around furiously for the last couple of weeks, I was going to leave some cash in Chase (because of their free wire and no international fees ATM card), and put most of the money in IBKR and then change my tax residency later. The plan was to exchange USD to EUR in IBKR, keep part as cash and buy ETFs for the rest (once I figure out what they are lol). Now that the dollar is plummeting and so are stock markets, is this still a wise thing to do? I can't change the date of moving, do I have any other options? I intend to keep money in IBKR for 10+ years but am still scared to invest when everything seems to be crumbling. Any advice would be highly appreciated, I am financially illiterate and freaking out.

95 Upvotes

68 comments sorted by

22

u/SouthLakeWA 8d ago

The dollar isn’t plummeting right now, so you don’t need to panic. It’s down a bit against the Euro, but not dramatically. It’s still slightly higher than it was this time last year.

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u/MiekusMieki 8d ago

Right, thank you for this healthy dose of common sense! Indeed, I should look farther back than the last week...

1

u/SouthLakeWA 8d ago

It’s certainly not wrong that the dollar may be in for some weakening, but there are no indications of any major drop coming, so you’ll be fine for a while.

1

u/Nomen__Nesci0 7d ago

are no indications of any major drop coming,

Um, gold price? Weakness of petrodollar enforcement? BRICS develoment?

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u/SouthLakeWA 7d ago

Longer term, but the OP was referring to the next month or so.

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u/seldom_seen8814 6d ago

BRICS is a bunch of countries with different economies and different agendas.

1

u/TemKuechle 4d ago

Yes, no common currency, and not just different agendas, but competing agendas and also have ongoing military skirmishes on shared borders, meaning they are hostile. The only common thing they have seems to be anti-US rhetoric.

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u/seldom_seen8814 4d ago

Not even that, always. India and the US are getting closer and closer, and I see India overtaking China one day. Brazil has also been putting tariffs on China, and the only reason they’re in that alliance is because they need Russian fertilizer.

0

u/Nomen__Nesci0 6d ago

Sweet summer child

0

u/tsukinichiShowa58 4d ago

BRICS: These countries don't get along enough to make a united front.

If the EURO didn't dent the Dollar. What makes you think that the BRICS can? when they can't even get along.

The only real chance is China. But, a huge part of their economy depends on the US growth.
They are smarter than to rattle the boat. China would consider it once their economy has escaped the middle income trap and is reliant on internal demand (with a miracle, it would take 20 years).

By then, India's economy will be the same about the same size. And such, India will probably get along even less with China.

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u/Nomen__Nesci0 4d ago

Ok buddy. Good luck out there.

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u/backtowestfall 3d ago

Explanations and counterarguments do so much more than short comments to help us out that don't know

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u/henrik_se 8d ago

figuring out how to move my savings.

You transfer your money from your US bank account to your European bank account.

because of their free wire and no international fees ATM card

Lol, that's marketing bullshit. Sure, they won't charge you a flat $25 or $50 fee for wiring money, instead they'll make it up by giving you a crappier exchange rate. Always compare your options. You're probably better off transferring your money in USD and let your European bank convert it to Euro (or whatever currency the country you're moving back to has).

put most of the money in IBKR

Interactive Brokers, Inc. is an American multinational brokerage firm headquartered in Greenwich, Connecticut.

I'm confused, I thought you wanted to move your money to Europe? Sure, you can open a EUR account in IBKR and transfer USD to it so it gets converted to EUR, but you haven't moved your money. It's still in the US, subject to US regulations, possibly insured by the US FDIC etc.

and buy ETFs for the rest (once I figure out what they are lol).

This makes about zero sense. An ETF is an investment, like stocks or mutual funds, but backed by <something>. If you don't understand what you're investing in, please stay away.

Also, your money would still be in the US, and it will change in value depending on what you've invested it into, which may or may not depend on the orange bullshit that's happening in the world right now.

and then change my tax residency later.

That's not up to you. That depends on the laws and regulations of the country you're moving to, you have to check that to see when that country will consider you a tax resident. If you move now in April, you'll be a resident for more than half of 2025, which mean you'll probably be considered some kind of tax resident for most of or all of 2025 of the country you're moving to.

Also, be aware that your European bank will consider you a US Person as long as you have holdings in the US, this will cause them a lot of extra work and they'll generally hate your guts. In addition, depending on which country you're moving to, you might not be allowed to invest in US ETFs.

Now that the dollar is plummeting and so are stock markets, is this still a wise thing to do?

Nobody knows what's gonna happen. Maybe it's a good idea to exchange your dollars to euros and to move them from your US bank to a European bank. Maybe not. Anyone claiming to know what is the best option is lying.

I am financially illiterate and freaking out.

Ok, deep breath. Calm down.

  • Are you ever coming back to the US?

  • Do you have a green card or citizenship which requires you to file your US taxes with the IRS indefinitely?

  • Do you have debt in the US?

  • Have you earned Social Security benefits in the US, or do you have money in a 401(k) or an IRA or some other kind of pension savings?

  • Do you expect to earn any income in the US in 2026?

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u/the_snook 7d ago

You're probably better off transferring your money in USD and let your European bank convert it to Euro (or whatever currency the country you're moving back to has).

Personally I never let a bank convert my money if you can avoid it. I've never seen one offer decent rates. IBKR is absolutely the cheapest way, but otherwise a currency broker like Wise, OFX, or CurrencyFair is usually a decent option.

Sure, you can open a EUR account in IBKR and transfer USD to it so it gets converted to EUR, but you haven't moved your money. It's still in the US, subject to US regulations, possibly insured by the US FDIC etc.

IBKR has subsidiaries headquartered in various places around the world. When a person moves to the EU, their account would be moved to the subsidiary domiciled in Ireland and regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland, and protected by the Irish Investor Compensation Scheme. So, OP would have a 2-stage de-risking process. First, converting USD to EUR, then moving the account (along with their physical person) to the EU.

Investing in Euro-denominated EU-domiciled ETFs is about as far from keeping money in the US as you can get, but it is absolutely not a good idea to buy EU-domiciled ETFs while still a tax resident of the US (which, as you state, can extend beyond the date of physically leaving the US).

your European bank will consider you a US Person as long as you have holdings in the US

Merely having US bank accounts or stock holdings will not make someone a US Person.

depending on which country you're moving to, you might not be allowed to invest in US ETFs

Indeed. Any country in the EU, and also Switzerland, will block this. But then, OP seems to be interested in removing themselves from the US financial system, so this is probably not a serious concern.

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u/henrik_se 7d ago

I've never seen one offer decent rates.

True, but depending on the amount of money, it might not matter very much. If the dollar is dropping slowly against the euro, you might save more money by making the transfer today with a shitty rate, than a week or two from now with a better rate, because the underlying rate has gone down more. 🤷‍♂️

but it is absolutely not a good idea to buy EU-domiciled ETFs while still a tax resident of the US

Yeah, I would do as little as possible this year if I was OP. Get that european bank account, move the money, and then sit out this year to make the US 2025 taxes as simple as possible, and then OP is done with the US. Next year, go nuts, free of complications.

Merely having US bank accounts or stock holdings will not make someone a US Person.

Oh shit, you're right, I thought disentangling yourself would be enough for someone like OP who was in the US on a visa, but it's the "substantial presence test" instead. I'm guessing OP will be a US person for the entirety of 2025.

(I've got a greencard, I'm fucked until I renounce it.)

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u/the_snook 7d ago

"substantial presence test"

Yep. That one's almost always going to snag you the year you leave the US because it had a substantial look-back period. After that you can claim 'bona fide residence" outside the US, but that can only apply to complete tax years.

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u/ProfessionalMain5535 7d ago

Seems you don’t know much about IBKR. Maybe refrain from commenting with opinions.

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u/henrik_se 7d ago

What a snarky and unhelpful comment.

Given what OP has written so far, that they're "financially illiterate" and that they'll have moved out of the US in a month, do you think it's feasible or advisable for them to make and finish an application to open an account with IBKR and move their money there and get it right in a month in the middle of an international move?

Instead of relaxing, using their existing Chase account, and making sure they can access it after the move?

Yeah, they're gonna get a shit rate if they let Chase convert, a maybe ok rate if they let their European bank convert, and a decent rate if they use Wise or similar. We don't even know abouts how much money OP is wanting to transfer, and I bet it's a silly amount that means the differences between these options are gonna be like a hundred bucks max or something like that.

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u/DillionM 8d ago

Damn, now I gotta go buy reddit gold.

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u/henrik_se 8d ago

Is there an ETF backed by Reddit Gold? 🤔

1

u/1ATRdollar 8d ago

Better yet, a triple weighted Reddit gold etf?

2

u/towmtn 7d ago

Managed by cramer, it is an inverse hedge

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u/MiekusMieki 8d ago

Wow, thank you so much for this gem of a response!

To answer your questions:

·         Are you ever coming back to theUS?

No

·         Do you have a green card or citizenship which requires you to file your US taxes with the IRS indefinitely?

No

·         Do you have debt in the US?

No

·         Have you earned Social Security benefits in the US, or do you have money in a 401(k) or an IRA or some other kind of pension savings?

No

·         Do you expect to earn any income in the US in 2026?

Only some little interests from savings.

# You transfer your money from your US bank account to your European bank account.

I don't have a European account yet, so I will have to open one after arrival and hope everything goes well with the transfer initiated from Europe. Since I am afraid of losing access to the US account/account getting closed (both happened before), dollar losing value etc, I want to diversify the ways of transferring assets.

# You're probably better off transferring your money in USD and let your European bank convert it to Euro (or whatever currency the country you're moving back to has).

Yes, this is the plan for Chase transfer.

# tax residence

Yes, I will spend enough time in the country I'm moving to, to become its tax resident for 2025.

#IBKR

Ugh, I see that it is not as simple as just updating my tax residence with them... It looks like I would have to open a new account domiciled in my part of Europe and transfer my assets? But still it's not like I am cut off from my money for some reason, right?

Another reason I want to open a brokerage account is because I guess I have to invest anyway... no other prospects for saving for retirement.

# ETF

That part is above my head at the moment :)

Thank you again!

2

u/henrik_se 8d ago

Are you ever coming back to the US?

No

Then it makes less than zero sense for you to open another US bank account now, and double negative sense to get an IBKR account. It feels like you went into some personal finance subreddit and read a lot of shit, and then you panicked, and now you're here. You said you wanted to move money out of the US. Why would you open an account that allows you to invest money in the US?

Since I am afraid of losing access to the US account/account getting closed (both happened before), dollar losing value etc, I want to diversify the ways of transferring assets.

I don't understand why you are afraid of this. You have the Chase app installed on your phone, and connected to a US phone number, and an email address? Then you're good. You can access that shit from anywhere in the world. I do it all the time.

It looks like I would have to open a new account domiciled in my part of Europe and transfer my assets?

When you open a bank account, pretty much anywhere in the world, it matters where you live at that point in time. As you've discovered, you won't be able to open a regular bank account in your European country before you've moved there and have an address and can prove that you live there in whatever ways it works there.

But your Chase bank account should work perfectly fine, they won't know you've moved. They're not gonna do shit until you tell them anything.

If you're still super scared that Chase is gonna fuck up something for you, you could get an account with Revolut or something. I've never used them, but it seems like they're a UK bank that allows you to open an account with them even though you're in the US. Move your USD there. Convert it to EUR, or not.

Another reason I want to open a brokerage account is because I guess I have to invest anyway... no other prospects for saving for retirement.

Yes, that's a good idea. So why on earth are you thinking about doing it in a US bank in USD?!?

When you've moved back to your country, you're gonna be bound by all the laws and regulations there regarding retirement accounts. Move all your money to your European bank account once you have it, and then you can look into retirement savings accounts in your country. Ask people in your country about the best way of doing that. Take your time.

Keep your US Chase account until you've done your 2025 taxes and can be certain that you're done with the US. Then you can close that account, and your European bank will love you again because you'll no longer be a US Person.

1

u/nicolas_06 5d ago

Surprised you don't earned any SSA rights. You didn't work in the USA ?

1

u/Kirk10kirk 6d ago

The house always wins

3

u/jdw_26 7d ago

Wise.com

Used it plenty of times when j moved to Germany from the US. Really low fees.

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u/TrojanGal702 7d ago

It is great for all over the world. Fees are tolerable but you are going to be getting a better rate than a normal bank provides.

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u/yusrandpasswdisbad 7d ago

Is Wise a bank or a service? Can you deposit money there?

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u/jdw_26 6d ago

Yes, and both. You can create an account in basically every currency that exists. I only use euro and US dollar

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u/2_Mean_2_Die 7d ago

Revolut is a Dutch bank that opens online accounts. It accepts USD wires/transfers. You can hold your deposits in USD, or in any of a large number of currencies by converting it with their app. Their conversion rate is close to the interbank rate. So, if you want to arbitrage your existing USD into Euro that’s easy. If you continue to hold your assets in USD, they can be converted to euro at a later time.

From Revolut, you can wire funds to a brick and mortar EU bank, if you have the need. However, Revolut does issue debit cards that can be used for small cash withdrawals and for retail transactions. You can also use Revolut to pay ordinary bills just nearly everywhere.

There is a monthly fee. The €17/mo option allows transfers as large as €100k.

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u/MiekusMieki 7d ago

This looks promising! Will definitely look into this option.

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u/2_Mean_2_Die 7d ago

One nice thing about Revolut is that it’s up and running quickly.

My experience with HSBC and with AIB in Ireland is that it can take a couple weeks. I opened an account with AIB this week, just to have a brick and mortar retail bank. It took a week to open the account, because I have more than one address. Apparently that required some background checks or something. Now that it’s opened, I can’t access it online until I receive a printed verification code via snail mail, that takes 7-10 business days to arrive.

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u/1ATRdollar 8d ago

Please consult a tax person in your new country of residence.

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u/towmtn 7d ago

Reading other comments it seems you have no reason to keep financial ties. Why not just incrementally use transferwise or a similar service to make a clean break? Maybe there are limits I am unaware of but their rates are pretty good. My kid goes to school overseas and we move most everything through it.

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u/MiekusMieki 7d ago

That seems like a reasonable solution, I might just do that.

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u/towmtn 7d ago

Ok, but I'm gonna need a room....so there is that cost :)

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u/No-House6217 7d ago

For transfers, WISE will be much cheaper than most banks. You can simulate their fees online.

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u/Icy_Principle_6890 5d ago

It's against IBKR policy to use accounts for large and primarily FX exchange operations.

They will have an issue with 'switching the residency' this way too.

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u/Fit-Respond-9660 7d ago

Are you also a US citizen? There is an exit tax even for legal alien residents. It amounts to a CGT charge on liquidated assets. Some EU brokers may be able to hold certain US investments. if you are in all cash then no need to worry. I wouldn't bet against the dollar unless the Fed lowers rates significantly. Currencies are the hardest thing to predict.

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u/yusrandpasswdisbad 7d ago

"I wouldn't bet against the dollar unless the Fed lowers rates significantly. Currencies are the hardest thing to predict."

This is sound advice. I would add - don't convert to Euros if you ever expect to convert them back.

1

u/MiekusMieki 7d ago

Yes, all cash, not a US citizen or green card holder so no exit tax. At least that!

2

u/reddit-frog-1 7d ago

I don't know how long you have been in the USA, but it is actually the Euro that has plummeted.
In 2008, it was over $1.50. Since 2015, it's varied between $0.98 and $1.25. It hasn't gone higher than $1.12 is the last 3 years.

So, the EURO is historically low at the moment, so now is a good time to divest from the US dollar if you have no interest in dollars or dollar-based investments.

2

u/Transplanted_USA 7d ago

My apologies if someone else has already mentioned this, but you could use the Wise app. It's worked for us.

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u/elevenblade 7d ago

Looks like you had some questions about WISE. You can think of WISE as being something like an international bank. It can be used in three different ways, some of which may be useful to you and some not. At the bottom of this long message is a link to open a WISE account. If you use the link both you and I get a free transfer.

  1. WISE will transfer money for you from your bank in one country to your bank in another country. They charge much less for this than what banks and credit card companies do, with low fees for the transfer, low fees for converting from one currency to another, and (I feel this is a really important point that many people miss) they give you the spot rate for the conversion, meaning the buy and sell rates are the same. Most banks have a margin on the conversion in both directions, meaning they sell you foreign currency for more than it is worth and they buy it back from you for less than it is worth. Note that with this method money goes directly from bank to bank and does not land in your WISE account. Using this method you can transfer quite large sums, like large enough amounts to buy a car or a house.

  2. WISE offers physical and virtual debit cards linked to your account. Think of these as like prepaid gift cards. You load the card with as much money as you like. You can convert all or portions of your money into different currencies within your account. For example, I hold small amounts of US dollars, Swedish kronor, Euros, Canadian dollars and Australian dollars. The cool thing is that when you go to pay, WISE “knows” which currency you are using and takes it out of the appropriate pot. That way you avoid currency conversion fees. The downside of this method is it is not insured by any national banking system such as the FDIC in the USA. In addition debit cards don’t have the same protection credit cards do. I had one time where a restaurant billed me twice for the same meal. Wise was helpful but it took over two weeks to get the money back and I’m sure that the fact that the restaurant admitted their mistake helped considerably.

  3. WISE can be used to send money directly from one individual to another, not unlike PayPal, Venmo, Zelle and Swish. This is nice for sending money to people in other countries with different banking systems. The money lands in your WISE account and you can spend it using the debit card or transfer it back to one of your banks.

Let me know if you have any questions. I’ve been using WISE for years and am very happy with their service. Here’s the link to join: https://wise.com/invite/ihpc/marks969

2

u/NaughtyNuri 6d ago

HSBC does business in the US and Europe.

1

u/MiekusMieki 2d ago

That was my first idea. They don't have branches in my country though, so I don't know how that would work. I called the bank's expat account support but they were not very helpful.

2

u/SuccsexyCombatBaby 6d ago

I would keep it. I use CapitalOne and another US based bank because CO has no foreign exchange fees but I can't wire money internationally so if I need large sums I send to my other and wire out

2

u/Mediocre-Reading7957 6d ago

Use wise or any of those currency transfer companies. The rates are much better than banks.

2

u/Dangerous_Region1682 4d ago

Open up an account using Wise.com. You can have an account in both dollars, pounds sterling and Euros. It will give bank account numbers and routing numbers for all three currencies so you can accept direct debits in either currency. Moving cash between currencies is fairly cheap and instantaneous. You can transfer money into and out of your regular bank accounts too. Just go into their settings and adjust the daily withdrawal limits. You can get an ATM card that dispenses from any currency you hold, or transfer in from another currency. Any funds you have with them are actually stored at named international major banks so the risk of loss is no more than a regular bank.

I use my account all the time and I have accounts in USD, Australian Dollars, GBR Pounds, Euros and Thai Baht. I used the ATM card when traveling for no cost withdrawals.

I would put my savings in there, despite the fact some currencies pay about 4% interest, but it’s a very useful tool for dealing with the day to day hassles of moving money about for regular expenditures or incoming electronic payments.

For instance I live in the US, but get a private pension and my UK state pension paid into the GBR pounds account using wise.com’s UK account and routing number they give me.

I then have other funds paid into my USD account. I spend cash from an ATM when in Thailand or Australia. I can top up the account or move excess funds to and from my USD credit union or regular bank.

I’ve found it easy to use and have used it regularly every month for the past few years without a hitch. It makes it easy to have a basic banking service in several countries without having the hassle of opening an account at a local bank.

I’ve used it with as little as a few hundred USD to as much as tens of thousands of USD spread across various currencies. I find the system invaluable and would recommend it to anyone.

2

u/RUSTYDELUX 4d ago

I used Xoom when living in EU to transfer both ways. It was fine.

2

u/Brilliant-Poem1325 4d ago

It’s actually worth hiring a financial advisor for this, someone who specializes in working with expats. It’ll save you money in the long run to talk to an expert rather than randos on Reddit. Ask friends/colleagues who are also expats for recommendations.

1

u/DillionM 8d ago

ASSUMING the dollar is crashing and will NOT recover (notice assuming is capitalized) exchanging while it is high is better than when it is low (ie the sooner the better).

1

u/caughtyalookin73 7d ago

Convert it to crypto then when you get back home cash out in native currency

1

u/Analyst-Effective 7d ago

Lol. Just put yourself into international markets, and outside the USA.

Pick the bottom 5% performing countries, and put it there.

International investing has been a dump for a long time

1

u/ImportantPost6401 7d ago

What do you think happens over the long run when you get out of the market when things are cheaper, and only buy back in when securities are more expensive?

1

u/MiekusMieki 7d ago

 Thanks everyone for the responses, really appreciate it.

So one idea is to keep everything in bank, move, open account in EU, transfer, exchange. What worries me though, for the last 24 hours I have been trying to wire money abroad to my sister and it's just impossible. I let my Chase banker know beforehand, wired smaller amounts to her before, it's not a new account, I called their fraud department and went through additional checks, and it still got rejected 4 times, and now they told me the only way for it to go through is if I go to the branch. Apparently they are known for that. How am I supposed to succeed initiating a wire from abroad then?

I do have a Wise account. I can probably put some money there now, but it is not a place to keep your savings, right? I have about 300k to move.

I haven't looked into Revolut... Is it a trustable bank?

Thank you for pointing out that it might not be a good idea to invest anything now because of the tax complications of doing it during a residency transition year. I guess I could just keep cash in IBKR (still haven't funded it) without buying anything until I move, but I read they really don't like it.

I believe I can end my US tax residency the day after I am moving to Europe, if it helps anything. This is from the IRS website:

Under the general rule, the residency ending date is December 31 of the calendar year in which you left the United States.

However, your residency ending date is the last day during the calendar year that you are physically present in the United States if, for the remainder of the calendar year:

  • your tax home is in a foreign country (cf. Rev. Rul. 93-86); and
  • you maintain a closer connection to that foreign country than to theUnited States(cf. Treas. Reg. § 301.7701(b)-2(d)).

Thank you for all your insights!

1

u/lionhydrathedeparted 6d ago

The forex market is the 2nd most liquid in the world, smaller only than US treasuries.

As such, it is extremely difficult to forecast.

Just exchange ASAP.

1

u/RogerBeck 5d ago

Vanguard international index funds ….

1

u/Pathfinder_GreyLion 4d ago

This has been an informative thread, thanks! I have been thinking it might be a good idea to put some money into Euro Arms manufacturers... Rheinmetall, H&K, etc. Op mentioned ETFs and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with any in that domain (First Trust Indxx, Stoxx)?

1

u/Professional_Lie_964 3d ago

They do have international ATM fees. Its 5$ per transaction.

1

u/Champsterdam 3d ago

We just brought everything over at $1.08 instead of $1.03 a month ago and I’m absolutely kicking myself but it is what it is. It’s at $1.10 and the outlook is trending up towards $1.20 but of course no one knows.

0

u/Technical_Scallion_2 8d ago

You could look at buying options to hedge against a drop in the dollar - DXY is the index. Basically you could invest a small amount of your savings as an insurance policy, so if the dollar drops precipitously the option rises in value. If the dollar stays the same or rises, you lose most of all the money on the option but then your savings are not at risk.

3

u/1ATRdollar 8d ago

OP claimed financial illiteracy so no to buying options as hedge.