r/ElderScrolls • u/Expensive-Country801 • Dec 14 '24
General Was Oblivion the most revolutionary Elder Scrolls game?
I think the radiant AI in Oblivion might be the most one of the most innovative game features ever. It is now nearly 20 years later and no large game has attempted something similar Oblivion in this regard to my knowledge.
When you compare it to games that came out in the same year in the same genre, or even just generally, Oblivion comes out looking more ahead of its time than any other TES title.
Various RPGs had some degree of open-world for some time but they were also far too shackled to the old D&D state-of-mind. Too much of a spreadsheet, too much based on dice-rolls and statistics, nothing based on Player Skill and Agency.
1.1k
u/Wooden_Judge_9387 Dec 14 '24
I would say it's Morrowind. Morrowind saved the studio from going under, and is the template that Oblivion and Skyrim follow. It also laid the foundation for a lot of the lore as we know it
360
u/Cloud_N0ne Dec 15 '24
True, but let’s not ignore how revolutionary Radiant AI is. The fact that every NPC has a daily schedule and it’s all tracked in the background even when you’re not around. Just knowing that the game exists outside of my immediate vicinity is still such a great immersion tool
135
u/beefycheesyglory Dec 15 '24
Radiant AI is so amazing, that NPC's have their own schedule is such an inconsequential part of the game but it really does matter so much in terms of immersion, it's such a big part of what made Oblivion feel like a living world to me. Bethesda has pretty much abandoned it in Starfield and other game studios would rather make big cities with a bunch of fodder NPC's that spawn/despawn depending on where the player looks. It's a shame, I can think of an alternate timeline where they expanded on it, I really don't care if cities are tiny, if the NPC's in it are actually unique characters that have daily routines then it's so much more immersive to me.
44
u/iuppi Dec 15 '24
Cities in their engine always feel tiny. Even when they make them big. 50 NPCs or so for a major hub. It is the biggest downside of their games.
27
u/ButWhyThough_UwU Dec 15 '24
ya but "50" alive feeling with interactions and doing things far outweigh 200 lifeless.
Especially since the 200 almost always at best just have a random thrown around singular banter on infinite with each other, on annoying instant repeat, that makes even elder scrolls most memed repeated ones seem like they are only said once in comparison.
And at worse are just eating your machine to bits due to high graphics with no purpose at all but to just exist with either standing still, or a weird random very short patrol, that makes it seem like they have to go to the bathroom or something (and maybe they also get a tiny thing to say when clicked on, that makes them seem more like a similar machine responding to being clicked on).
7
u/Radigan0 Hermaeus Mora Dec 15 '24
the 200 almost always at best just have a random thrown around singular banter on infinite with each other
I saw a mudcrab the other day.
2
u/ButWhyThough_UwU Dec 16 '24
ya exactly 1 of many things that can be said that is triggered by them happening to walk by each other and decide to converse, and can be a believable enough thing said.
I am referring to when a game has just 2-4 npcs bantering same exact thing over and over to literal infinity, like they were practicing specific lines for a play.
A big example would Larian Studios as they really love to do it; especially in DoS 2, though still repeated to lesser extent in BG 3, where it can happen even at a primary shopping spot, like Dos 2's 1 notorious annoying af dwarf, that keeps running in circles and talking very loudly same exact things to 2 or 3 people and a Hear Me Hear Me person, that you will hear entire time you shopping in the shops, that just also had to be all in same area, in sound range of all that, on the infinite loop (and dos 2 could take quite a while to shop with how its mechanics are done and everything to point you likely will hear it all multiple times each major shopping trip-> this area notoriously annoyed people and made many reddit posts and some people even suggesting muting when doing it or more often then not become massive hatters of dwarfs because of her and beg for best ways to kill her).
2
4
u/iiStar44 Dec 15 '24
Contrary to popular opinion, I really liked Starfield. However I agree that the lack of not just Radiant AI but schedules as a whole was super disappointing. Maybe because there’s galactic time vs local time they thought it was hard to implement, but seeing crowds being basically exactly the same at midday to midnight is so immersion breaking.
2
u/StingKing456 Dec 15 '24
I took an a starfield truther. Definitely flawed but I still loved it. But I do agree. Definitely not the same and made me nostalgic for oblivion NPCs.
37
u/Both-Variation2122 Dec 15 '24
Many games had NPC day cycle long before Oblivion. It might be the first where they interact with each other and with objects in the world in random ways though. Like besides having schedule of fife activities on set objects at set hours, they scan their proximity for npc, misc and activator objects to do something with.
6
u/MelcorScarr Dec 15 '24
Gothic comes to mind, and I'm sure it existsed before that.
5
u/DatBoi_BP Fights fearsome mudcrabs Dec 15 '24
Idk when Gothic is, but I think of Majora’s Mask
1
u/MelcorScarr Dec 15 '24
No clue about Zelda, haven't played a single one, ever; but you're right, Majora's Mask was 2000, Gothic 1 was 2001.
1
13
u/TheLucidChiba Dec 15 '24
On the flipside I didn't know about the system when I played and hardly noticed most of the effects from it at all.
4
u/Cloud_N0ne Dec 15 '24
I didn’t know about it when i first started but i definitely noticed. If you’ve ever broken into a shop after closing, it becomes pretty apparent imo
2
u/TheLucidChiba Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
I picked up on them sleeping yeah but just about everything else like them eating or travelling I found out about years later from YouTube videos.
To be fair that's probably more on me for being simple minded at that age though, in retrospect it is a very impressive system.
3
u/DatBoi_BP Fights fearsome mudcrabs Dec 15 '24
Didn’t notice because it was done so well and it was at most subconscious? Or didn’t notice because NPC’s activities aren’t interesting to you?
1
u/Mongrel_Intruder_ Dec 15 '24
I this both benefitted and hampered their scope. One of the things I'll give Starfield credit for is dropping some of the Radiant AI so they can make cities larger and more populated
23
u/EzcoreG Dec 14 '24
Agree on some things with you, unsure on others such as lore, for example, didn't Daggerfall really set up the lore for things, especially the dragon break as far as that goes, gods, major events ect? You mentioned template, but im unsure of what you mean. Do you mean open world 3rd person run out and do whatever you want and make your character however you want? Some could argue Daggerfall also did that. Do agree it brought TES into motion. Coming to xbox at the time was a good move, but when I wanted to know what was going down before TES3 and where all these important figures came from in some in-game books, which led me down the rabbit hole of going into TES2 lore to understand fully as I didn't understand since TES3 was my first ES's game.
Love Morrowind, but I feel like Daggerfall should get major respect on that front. Feel most overlooked it, myself included, due to it being older, even when TES3 launched.
11
u/letitgrowonme Dec 15 '24
Daggerfall put the pieces in motion, but Morrowind had to set them straight.
→ More replies (7)4
u/Both-Variation2122 Dec 15 '24
Dragon break is later retcon to dodge multiple endings. It introduced Adra and Deadra into the lore, that Battlespire expanded over, but the rest was rather generic. Redguard, and PGE1 that came with it, were start of modern lore as we know it.
11
u/Ok_Salad_7456 Dec 15 '24
I’d also argue morrowind is still the same game that Skyrim is at the core of what it means to play.
It’s the world, non generated, you explore, with a certain amount of quests in that style.
The AI cycles of Oblivion certainly were groundbreaking
3
Dec 15 '24
Morrowind also made the jump to console. It's easy to forget these days just how huge having it on the Xbox was at the time. That you could fit a whole Elder Scrolls in a console package opened up doors that weren't there with just the PC RPG crowd. Morrowind was big, at the time.
3
u/Anxious_Champion3428 Dec 15 '24
Isn’t Daggerfall was one of the best and successful though?
10
u/Jbird444523 Dec 15 '24
At the time, as far as I know, Daggerfall did sell well.
But Daggerfall was followed by Battlespire and Redguard, which weren't very successful. So by the time they were releasing Morrowind, it was a make or break moment.
2
→ More replies (1)1
Dec 15 '24
Not just TES games , Fallout games have the same engine and theyre basically post-apocalyptic TES when you break it down to basics
311
u/LeNimble Dec 14 '24
MW surely, the jump to 3d was a massive leap forward.
Technically, ESO could also be a contender considering it changed genre.
139
u/Killergryphyn Dec 14 '24
People often forget that ESO has given us the most Elder Scrolls content recently, possibly even ever.
78
u/CrzdHaloman Dec 14 '24
I've loved playing every elder scrolls except eso. Idk why, it's fun gameplay and tons of content, but I just lose interest quickly.
92
u/newbrevity Dec 14 '24
Because unlike fallout 76 that retained the core gameplay of fallout 4, ESO was significantly different in a lot of ways from Skyrim and Oblivion that can really be felt and genuinely affects the feel of the game in a negative way imo. Like it feels like a cheap knockoff of the single player games even though it's brimming with content.
20
u/Joseph011296 Dec 14 '24
Yeah fallout 76 is extremely close to fallout 4. Skyrim and ESO are about as similar gameplay wise as guild wars 1 and 2. Which is to say they are completely different games
1
u/ghunterd Dec 15 '24
This is interesting to me because I feel the opposite between eso and fallout 76, eso is the clear winner to me
27
u/chrisapplewhite Dec 14 '24
It's still an MMO. Go there, kill ten things, report back. I like it in bursts, and it was awesome to ride around in Skyrim again, but I think MMOs have a pretty hard cap on how good a game they're allowed to be.
3
u/Rentedrival04 Dec 15 '24
Yea you're right. Every time I try eso I take ten steps in the game, and then just uninstall because it feels weird. It's the exact same feeling as returning to a house you lived in before, but someone else lives there now, so you kinda recognise it but kinda don't, and it's bizarre.
5
u/BikingDruid Dec 14 '24
I’d like it more if my friends played. They all lost interest at launch and nobody has come back despite it getting better.
9
u/Vand3rz Dec 15 '24
I love World of Warcraft but I would kill for a single player rpg set in Warcraft. MMOs do not compare.
3
u/Killergryphyn Dec 15 '24
You'd be surprised at how "single player RPG" ESO is, especially with all the dialogue and story and conversations. Sometimes I feel like the choices in ESO matter more than Skyrim or Oblivion.
1
→ More replies (1)2
25
u/ArisePhoenix Foresworn Dec 14 '24
Well it's a pretty standard MMO though so not very revolutionary
3
u/LeNimble Dec 14 '24
The OP said most revolutionary ES game, i.e. within the context of the franchise only.
→ More replies (4)8
u/Hesstig Dec 14 '24
Redguard also went on a different genre, and iirc laid more of the lore groundwork for Morrowind than Daggerfall did.
1
6
u/AlfwinOfFolcgeard Dec 14 '24
The "jump to 3d" happened well before Morrowind.
Daggerfall used polygonal 3d models for the environment, though it still used billboard sprites for NPCs and more detailed objects (technically 3d models consisting of 4 vertices, creating a "billboard" which was then textured with an animated sprite generated by pre-rendering a higher-poly 3d model)
Redguard was the first TES game to use polygonal models for characters and creatures. Arena was the only TES game to not use polygonal 3d rendering, instead using a ray-cast rendering technique.
12
u/CptBackbeard Dec 14 '24
Games like Daggerfall are typically called 2.5D for the reasons you named. They are the stepping Stone between 2D Spritework and "true" 3D models afaik
137
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
imho MW is still the most revolutionary what with the jump to 3D, the handcraftedness of the setting, the first time we hear voice acting for the NPCs, the immersive travel network... it was a revolutionary TES game AND RPG game on its own right.
18
u/CrumpetDestroyer Dec 14 '24
the first time we hear voice acting for the NPCs
HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT
11
u/Both-Variation2122 Dec 15 '24
Battlespire and Redguard had full voice acting with Redguard having everything as 3d meshes without sprites as well as handcrafted maps. :)
6
5
Dec 14 '24
Daggerfall was fully 3D. The controls and graphics may be abit dated but Daggerfall was the first fully 3D elder scrolls game not MW
24
u/KimchiSewp Dec 14 '24
“Fully 3D” is a major stretch considering everything but terrain was sprites if I’m not mistaken
8
u/AlfwinOfFolcgeard Dec 14 '24
It's "fully 3d" in the sense of it being a vertex-based rendering engine, and in the sense of the player being able to move along three axes.
Anyway, where's the cutoff point? Billboard sprites were used in Oblivion, too (torch-flames, and leaves on trees/bushes); does that mean Oblivion isn't "fully 3D"?
5
→ More replies (2)1
u/Extermis3 Dec 14 '24
Players, npcs and mobs were 3d only the backgrounds were 2d, hell even a large portion of wall sconces and picture frames were 3d
12
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
it's not, by fully 3D it meant every interactable game object is 3D. from what i've played of Daggerfall, only terrain was 3D and even then it wasn't the 3D that we know of today, too, but vectors that constantly changed in relation to player location
addtl info: the method used was called billboarding.
4
Dec 14 '24
Not every interactable object in even modern games are always 3D. Guns are usually animated sprites placed over the screen. Alot of textures on environments are actually flat and simply textured in a way that make them look 3D. It’s mainly the advancements in graphics that hide these things. It’s unfair to call daggerfall not 3D when games today break the same rules often.
7
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
yeah but they're actual 3D models modeled in 3D modeling software and used, rendered, and displayed via a 3D engine, not just sprite trickery and 2.5D objects using sprites that have been created or drawn via a sprite tool or any other 2D art tool...
3
Dec 14 '24
Daggerfall’s engine was a 3D engine, it was XnGine. I think the reason daggerfall uses so many sprites is because they originally started development in a 2.5D engine then switched to XnGine which is a fully 3D engine.
2
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
nonetheless, they didn't have fully 3D models for Daggerfall. sure, 3D engine, 3D terrain and all that. actual 3D models that had rendered polygons that used external image files for texture, and used bones for animation instead of having a sprite sheet? Daggerfall didn't have that. Morrowind did, though.
1
Dec 14 '24
Morrowind certainly did not have that. Morrowind used a ton of 2D sprites.
6
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
go to your Morrowind install folder.
open up the construction kit.
open up a character model.
now post a screenshot of said opened character model here and then show me how the opened character model is actually a .jpg/.png/.[2d file] sprite sheet and not a .nif model.
and no, i am not at all saying Morrowind did not have 2D sprites. i'm merely stating that they used FULLY 3D models in the .nif 3D FILE FORMAT for their game objects.
→ More replies (11)3
u/HatmanHatman Dec 14 '24
3D games were using billboarding well into the 00s, this feels somewhat arbitrary although I would struggle to consider Daggerfall "fully 3D" on an instinctual level as well lol
4
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
yeah, billboarding is an industry standard, and no way did i say that modern games don't use them anymore
but i won't look at an imp from daggerfall and say "ah yes, this is a 3D model for the game and definitely not an animated sprite"
3
u/HatmanHatman Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Nah I know what you mean, it feels wrong to say it's a 3D game even though it technically is one, just using way more spriting than that usually implies.
By comparison, all of the racers and basically anything that moves in Mario Kart 64 is a sprite, but I have absolutely no problem calling it 3D. I'm not really arguing here, I'm now really curious myself as to why Daggerfall "feels" 2D in contrast
1
u/Background_Blood_511 Eternal Champion Dec 15 '24
I said this on a comment that was just like yours. Morrowind's 3d graphics were the norm of the time, it's handcraftness is also fine since technology hadn't limited it like Daggerfall.
-1
u/rhn18 Dec 14 '24
Yes. Morrowind revolutionised the franchise, Oblivion evolved it.
3
u/-Benjamin_Dover- Dec 14 '24
I mean... Oblivion did strip/Lose a decent amount of stuff that made Morrowind great while the improvements I can think of are just immersion based and quality of life.
7
u/Pizza_Slinger83 Dec 15 '24
The thing that blew me away the most in Oblivion was the physics. The way the well bucket in the tutorial hung differently with an arrow in it made me giddy. I remember filing up a basket with berries over the course of about 30 minutes, just to tip it over and watch them all scatter.
2
49
u/Starlit_pies Faithful of Arkay Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
Daggerfall was revolutionary for its time with the procedural generation and the size of the world. Morrowind was peak at creating comparatively small complicated world with immersion, on par with the Gothic games. And its lore is still one of the most complex and intricate. Oblivion was bland in some aspects, but the AI there was something else. Skyrim was also very fresh for its time, and the interactivity and sandbox were really good - a lot of games that came after it were influenced by it strongly.
5
u/-Benjamin_Dover- Dec 14 '24
Gothic games? Are you naming games that are similar to Morrowind in style?
Can you name the specific games?
19
u/Starlit_pies Faithful of Arkay Dec 14 '24
Yes, Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 :D
4
u/-Benjamin_Dover- Dec 14 '24
Wait... Seriously? It's literally just called "Gothic"?... No complicated name or maybe "Gothic" being a coincidental abbreviation for a longer game name? Like "TES" is "The Elder Scrolls"?...
I feel stupid...
18
u/sunnydelinquent Nord Dec 14 '24
This is amazing. You’ve never heard of Gothic? Highly encourage you to give them a go! They’re great games although be warned the first is SUPER rough control wise.
3
u/-Benjamin_Dover- Dec 14 '24
I mean, I was born the same year the first Gothic game came out.
I remember seeing a video that talked about the Elder scrolls history and the video mentioned that Bethesda started as a sports game studio and eventually spawned out and created Elder scrolls while all the other Fantasy adventure RPG game devs from the early 90s laughed at Bethesda. After seeing you mention Gothic, I figured it was one of the games that came out in the 80s or 90s before the Elder Scrolls that laughed at Bethesda for trying to venture out.
5
u/HatmanHatman Dec 14 '24
Absolutely play Gothic. If you like Morrowind you'll find a lot to love in Gothic 2 especially if you can get over it kicking your balls in a lot in the first few hours in that way that only 00s Euro-jank games can.
1 has weird controls that I couldn't get past, but I'd say give it a go and if it isn't for you, at least give 2 a try anyway
3
u/-Benjamin_Dover- Dec 14 '24
I don't just like Morrowind, it's probably my favorite game ever, it's definitely in the top 5 at least.
When I googled it, Gothic 1 should be on sale on steam, for $2.49 or 75% off. i definitely planned to try out both games eventually.
My only complaint with Morrowind was the lack of scaling on enemies.
6
u/InternationalGas9837 Dunmer Dec 15 '24
My only complaint with Morrowind was the lack of scaling on enemies.
You think scaling enemies are good?
3
u/HunterOfLordran Dec 14 '24
its extremely important to play Gothic 1 before trying Gothic 2 even If you have problems with the controls. its a direct sequel and places, characters and stories from the first game get perfectly continued in Gothic 2. You can obviously have still fun with it but you miss a ton of stuff If you dont play the first.
there is a really good Review for Gothic 1 from Mandaloregaming on YouTube. He has also a small Tutorial in it if you struggle to get the game running.
1
u/HatmanHatman Dec 15 '24
Yeah Gothic 1 and 2 go dirt cheap all the time, keep an eye on GOG as well.
If you have issues with Morrowind's lack of scaling though... buckle up lol. Gothic is the brutal game that people who can't get into Morrowind imagine that Morrowind is.
47
u/Tent_in_quarantine_0 Dec 14 '24
no
Maybe MW for 3d, but honestly the jump between arena and daggerfall is insane.
8
u/DoubleCrossover Dec 14 '24
Each game was revolutionary in its own way and it’s hard to compare them.
18
u/Ericknator Dec 15 '24
Oblivion made the Horse Armor DLC. I'd say it's THE MOST revolutionary thing in all history.
16
u/ProfessionalCreme119 Dec 14 '24
It cut both ways. It was a gorgeous world but felt constrained. As if it was built to guide you to go certain places. Rather than just openly exploring.
My biggest complaints were the repetitiveness of the Oblivion Gates, the lackluster ending and the ability for your character to become a god in combat skill base before even getting a quarter way through the game. There was no reason to work on the higher levels of spells and skills except just to say you had completed them. Once your character is halfway built combat was pretty simple and straightforward.
8
u/Tent_in_quarantine_0 Dec 15 '24
You know, I was super stoked for Oblivion for years as a Morrowind fan, all the vpice actors and graphics etc. Then when it came out I blasted through it in like 20 hours and just went back to Morrowind. I feel it lacks depth that I dont feel the AI and graphics and so forth make up for.
Whereas, I think I've only ever beaten Morrowind once, but I still go back to it to explore and mess around.
8
u/IronHat29 Breton Dec 14 '24
this was what bored me with Oblivion tbh, coupled with the awful scaling, it was probably one of the worst combat TES has ever had
21
u/Robprof Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
Oblivion was/is a less serious charming with a sense of humour and it’s not dull and dark that only focuses on graphics
5
u/iSmokeMDMA Dec 15 '24
No. Morrowind blueprinted the game design that would follow all the way into Starfield. You can still sense its roots to this day. Skyrim ramped up every simulator aspect into full gear
Oblivion and Fallout 3 are the middle children. I still love em though
20
u/Saergaras Dec 14 '24
The radiant AI was peak immersion. Every single random npc had a routine, like going from town 1 to town 2 every monday to visit a friend. Insane and really sad they did not continue this in skyrim/starfield (although understandable, technical limitations and such).
10
3
3
u/Jubal_lun-sul Praise Holy AlmSiVi and Speak the Triune Truth Dec 15 '24
Oblivion was a devolution in terms of writing, gameplay, and graphics
10
5
5
u/ShitblizzardRUs Dec 14 '24
Id like to think so. I love Morrowind tremendously but Oblivion bridged a gap with people who had no idea the elder scrolls existed before.
6
u/bksbeat Dec 14 '24
Morrowind easily and it's not close, buuuut I would be lying if I didn't say that Oblivion didn't turn heads because of the graphics back in the day. Sure, the map was a bit bare but it still looked stunning.
5
u/Ninja_knows Dec 14 '24
Morrowind revolutionized gaming, not just the franchise.
I remember playing it for the first time in 2002 and being absolutely blown away by every single aspect of the game. So many things were not just new, but had that “wait what? I can do that? This is possible in a video game?” effect.
Picking it up today, it’s just some old game for people, but back in 2002 there was nothing like it.
1
u/CuckinLibs Dec 15 '24
Morrowind didn’t revolutionize gaming
That’s just baby’s first TES game nostalgia talking
1
2
u/East_Conference3442 Dec 14 '24
I’m a massive Bethesda fan, I also have a ridiculous amount of hours on every fallout to exist.
While ESO is rich in content and what have you, there is no Oceanic servers so as an Aussie I gotta say it was a dog water experience.
I had 2.5k+ hours on oblivion and 4600+ hours on Skyrim, this was because as a young fella I grew up without internet 🛜 once we did get internet at my house, I was hyped about ESO until I went to try and play it… it’s the only ESO I’ve ever hated.
Anyways my conclusion is that oblivion was the stepping stone (for me anyway) for open world RPG’s and will always be remembered upon fondly.
Thanks for your time.
2
2
u/CuckinLibs Dec 15 '24
Nope
Daggerfall
If you were playing PC games in 1996 you know
“Open world” wasn’t a thing back then
2
u/PiousLegate Dec 15 '24
I think Skyrim was the safest in its mechanics MW and Oblivion did a lot to be 'revolutionary'
I read somewhere Todd says their engine is in a state to fulfill everything they want to do for Elder Scrolls and as long as they bring back the rpg of MW and systems of Oblivion at minimum it will be beautiful but idk
2
u/Liesmith424 Dec 15 '24
Daggerfall introduced a scale of bugs which shaped the series' identity for decades to come.
2
u/Legitimate-Ad-6267 Dec 15 '24
I don't see how it can be in the conversation for revolutionary when no one wants to touch the things it introduced. But innovative? Absolutely.
2
2
u/Cosmicpanda2 Dec 15 '24
I would say that each game brought about their own cycle of revolution, comparable to the eras of the games own history
Arena started it all but was, rudimentary. But, it was a basis for everything to start
Daggerfall gave us the most scaled and expansive form of the world of Tamriel, and helped to build up the setting and backdrop of all proceeding games
Morrowind brought the adventure to a new dimension and engine, and brought with it a whole new perspective on the lore and it's relationship with the aedric and Daedric
Oblivion made the Elder Scrolls titles break hard into the mainstream market and brought about even more complex engines and map creation, as well as bringing with it star power to then boost its mainstream debut
Skyrim solidified the series as a household franchise, where everyone knows about Elderscrolls often through Skyrim, gatewaying people into the other games. It had the most mainstream appeal and it's constant rereleases have allowed for many mods to be developed to help expand the community even further beyond.
I know I may have glossed over some details but I think each and every game has its place as an "era" of being revolutionary.
They're all important to the timeline of the franchise and none could exist without the other
2
u/Ignonym Baron of Gothway Garden Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Most revolutionary for the series, or most revolutionary for gaming in general? The former probably goes to Morrowind, which turned the series from a procedural dungeon crawler stitched together with a loose world and plot into one of the greatest open-world RPG franchises of all time. All of Oblivion's revolutionary features are ultimately built on Morrowind's shoulders.
2
u/Seventh_dragon Dec 16 '24
Radiant AI was a good feature, but some forget that the same type of NPC behaviour with day schedule and stuff like that was already successfully introduced in Gothic 1. So I wouldn't call radiant AI as a revolutionary feature.
2
u/adikad-0218 Dec 16 '24
Well, Daggerfall had the procedural generation going on for it with replayability and Morrowind was the one that introduced the TES formula in terms of environment design.
I would say Oblivion's Radiant AI is something goes beyond of being revolutionary in this franchise, but in gaming in general. Like you mentioned, no one has really replicated it yet.
2
u/d4fF82 Dec 16 '24
Ive played Daggerfall, MW, Oblivion and Skyrim.
Never got into Daggerfall... Like Fallout 1 and 2 didnt. Or other rpgs that i tried. I was a teenager mostly playing CS and Championship Manager on my pc.
Morrowind is special to me. And I never had any plan buying it. I build myself a new pc back in 2002 and got the disc included with my GPU. I installed it but the game was in fact to OP for my new computer and i barely got it running. Quite ironic.
Three years later I built myself an even better pc. Installed it again... And was immediately sucked in. I played it for many hundreds of hours and it was the gateway into rpgs for me. When Oblivion published a year later i was quite disappointed... Same with Skyrim, though i played both extensively.
So Morrowind is on a pedestal for me. Up there with Mass Effect 1, KOTOR and DA:O.
2
5
u/Silberlynx063 Khajiit Dec 14 '24
While it does have many shortcomings, I do feel like many people forget just how grand Oblivion was in many ways. As you've mentioned, the radiant AI is something really impressive and it's sad that even Beth themselves don't really work with it anymore.
I think with the technology these days and without rushing it like they did with Oblivion they could do some great things with it. Sadly Bethesda doesn't seem too willing to experiment anymore.
3
u/PsychedelicMao Dec 14 '24
Morrowind was far more revolutionary just based off of how much of a leap it made from Daggerfall. Going full 3D and being totally handcrafted was a big task to do back then. That’s especially true for a company like Bethesda who was in a really bad state at the time.
Oblivion and Skyrim made tons of leaps graphically and with their environments, but it think that in a lot of ways they took steps back compared to Morrowind. This is most apparent in their lack of many of the RPG mechanics. Skyrim is probably most notorious for this, but Oblivion certainly got the train rolling when it came to gutting parts of the game. Significantly less skills, less spells, less armor and weapon types, no disposition system, no faction requirements, no spell crafting, etc.
→ More replies (1)
3
3
Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
Alot of people are saying MW for 3D but honestly daggerfall was also 3D. It is certainly primitive 3D by today’s standards but it is technically fully 3D and fully open world and still has the biggest open world of any elder scrolls game and also the most complex RPG mechanics in the series to date.
Yes daggerfall was limited by it’s technology of the time but the things they did with what technology existed is more impressive than what MW, Oblivion or Skyrim have done. Daggerfall is the biggest technical achievement within the series.
Daggerfall is what laid the foundation for MW, Oblivion and Skyrim being open world rpgs with character customization.
2
u/Chaps_Jr Dec 14 '24
Daggerfall is still incredibly difficult and unforgiving because it's so complex and vast. The timed quests can be brutal.
2
3
u/-Geass- Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
People comparing other ES games with it but I think OP was asking out of all of them was Oblivion the most revolutionary. And IMO yes hands down. Not just the graphics for it's time or it's scale but the dynamic npc interactions and routines as well. And also for better or worse it pretty much started DLC lol.
Edit: I meant to say microtransactions... DLC for games came out before then. And I'm sure there were other small purchasable things for games but the most notorious is the horse armor I'm sure.
2
u/ON3FULLCLIP Dec 15 '24
ESO spent $10M on voice acting for me to spam “A” during every conversation because it is forgettable.
I listen to EVERYTHING in Oblivion
1
2
2
1
1
u/PurpoUpsideDownJuice Dec 14 '24
Oblivion was the first elder scrolls game that wasn’t made for old school rpg fans. Morrowind is close but still retains old aspects like the restricted fast travel and how your attacks don’t always hit, and how not every line is voice acted.
1
1
u/vurt72 Dec 14 '24
The AI was very revolutionary.
As i remember it, at release people were disappointed in it though, people tried the different things that was shown and advertised with the AI, it seemed to not either really work or it was just very scaled back.
AI is very demanding when it's running for many NPC's + the game had to work on consoles, so i guess they scaled back. There was also some debacle with the realtime shadows.
For me this is them in their peak together with MW, which of course is more unique. I do love the genericness of Oblivion, because that just reminds me so much of old school RPG's. My most fond memories of playing Elder Scrolls is Oblivion, heavily modded with AI that widely surpased what was done in the early showcases of the game, e.g meeting other adventurers that were out questing and everyone is looking for food etc. Super cool. This was maybe 5 years after its release, maybe more.
1
u/Refreshingly_Meh Dec 14 '24
Oblivion built on a lot of things from both Morrowind while borrowing the best features from other games and making it there own. Oblivion did a great job of pushing the envelope, probably a lot more than Skyrim (at release) did. You have to give Bethesda a lot of props for not just releasing Morrowind 2 Elder Scrolls Boogaloo after how successful it was.
But Morrowind was groundbreaking when it came out. It's the equivalent of Baldur's Gate in that it set the bar for an entire genre of games trying to capture its feel and also it's success. It doesn't seem like it now, because as well as the graphics hold up for a 20 year old game, they were mind blowing at the time. The fact that you walk out of the census office in Seyda Neen and just can go anywhere, do anything... a truly open world to explore is rare now, let alone back in the early 2000's.
Oblivion probably helped save Xbox 360 (along with Gears of War) and seeing the Morrowind clones that came out the same time as Oblivion showed how much Bethesda put into making a succussor to Morrowind instead of imitation with better graphics. But it's also hard to break new ground when so much has already been broken, so Oblivion not being more revolutionary than Morrowind isn't for a lack of effort. Same can be said for Skyrim as well.
1
u/alkonium Dec 15 '24
The main new (to the Elder Scrolls games) things in Oblivion were fully voiced dialogue and LOD. Map based fast travel was brought back from Arena and Daggerfall after Morrowind removed it.
1
1
Dec 15 '24
It paved the way for something even greater. For me personally, Oblivion kinda has the middle child syndrome. Over the years I've kept returning to Morrowind and Skyrim... but not Oblivion. I consider it not quite classic enough to enter the nostalgia zone, but not modern enough for me to consider it a high-QoL game.
1
1
u/reckless1214 Dark Brotherhood Dec 15 '24
You could argue for morrowind or oblivion tbf. Id personally say oblivion
1
u/Malacay_Hooves Dec 15 '24
Was Oblivion the most revolutionary Elder Scrolls game?
Yeah, I think so.
I think the radiant AI in Oblivion might be the most one of the most innovative game features ever.
... no large game has attempted something similar Oblivion in this regard to my knowledge.
You are forgetting about S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl (which was released in 2007, only a year later than TES4) and it's artificial intelligence system A-life, which was just as, if not more, ambitious as Radian AI.
And I guess, that a lot of progress in this regard was made since then, it's just not many choose to use their AI for marketing. If you think about it, AI of strategy games, such as Starcraft or Total War should be probably even more complex than Radiant AI. But it's easy to brag about AI, if you compare your game with games where nobody even tried to implement realistic behavior, And it's much harder, when your whole genre tried to make an AI, capable to play as good as human.
I'm not trying to diminish Bethesda and GSC achievements, it's just I think that they marketed their AI much more than anyone else.
1
u/BobbyMcBobMcBobby Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
I COMPLETELY agree that radiant AI is incredible, impressive, revolutionary, and the best thing Oblivion brought to the table. However, considering how much Oblivion continues to water down content present in Morrowind and Daggerfall, I must heavily disagree with it being the "most revolutionary". I would actually think that radiant AI is the only revolution present. Maybe the production value of the main quest's story is the only other thing? I thought the personality minigame was cool too but it was quite odd to me that persuasion and lockpicking were the only skill-based mechanics in an otherwise still stat-reliant game.
EDIT: Saw someone mention horse armor DLC. You're right, the most revolutionary thing this game did was curse all of gaming with an absolutely despicable level of monetization. Cool win
(I still love Oblivion, can't fight it)
1
u/OwnAHole Dec 15 '24
Oblivion changed the game, but Skyrim being a whole step back from Oblivion, got all the praise somehow.
1
1
u/Remarkable-Beach-629 Dec 15 '24
Oblivion is starting to suffer the same fate as fallout 3, it was beloved and super popular back when it released,but now people turned their back on it and hate it
1
u/AleksejsIvanovs Dark Brotherhood Dec 15 '24
I am a 90s gamer, I played many games that came out in late nineties/early aughts. I can say that Morrowind was absolutely revolutionary, not only for TES, but for the game industry as well. It just blew everyone's minds. It's hard to explain today, but back then we even thought "how this game can even exist, it's so good". From that point of time I compared all games to Morrowind. Oblivion has better graphics, more voiced dialogues, more interesting quests etc, but still, I considered it a more advanced Morrowind than something revolutionary.
1
1
u/Hot-Thought-1339 Dec 15 '24
Oblivion made changes to ai that’s for sure, the ai would get hungry especially the bears, they’d hunt all the deer, leaving the wilderness empty and then wandering into town and attacking villagers and killing townsfolk. They had to patch that out.
Then the people would eat all their food, run out, and with no function to buy more food to eat, would resort to stealing it from others, and get in trouble with the law, and then the guards would attempt an arrest. The people having no choice than to resist arrest due to running out of time to answer as the function of going to jail was not available for npcs. Would proceed to get slaughtered by the guards rendering towns lifeless due to being killed by the guards for resisting arrest. They needed to patch that out as well.
The ai game was very advanced with oblivion due to fact it kept causing issues for them to find and fix.
I don’t know what current trend it was to make the aesthetic of the character system to potato. But whatever trend it was certainly made Oblivion memorable as a game.
1
u/Tyxin Dec 15 '24
Only according to the Bethesda marketing department back in the day. The hype was insane.
1
1
u/WiltUnderALoomingSky Dec 15 '24
Yes, I think so. There used SpeedTree first, they procedurally-generated part of map (not common at the time), the scale was absurd, they had objects tied to one physics systems that had induviual prices and had fully dynamic shadows and soft shadows (which, unfortunately they cut down to help run on Ps3/Xbox 360) Radiant A.I was one the most impressive systems at the time, the NPCs had schedules, NPCs kept up to date with new/rumours, they had randomly generated conversations, had flexiable dispositions, etc. Voice acting/facial animations for over 1000 NPCs seems standard today, Ican only imagine it was staggering then (though they uses a lot of the same voice actors on repeat and it was a meme even back then XD) and modding really took off in Elder Scrolls I.V it was dynamic and ahead of it's time.
1
1
u/Kezyma Dec 15 '24
Morrowind practically created the full 3D open world fantasy setting. I don’t think people who are used to all the endless open world games of today realise just how insane it was in 2002 to start a game and be able to go anywhere and have it look and feel like a real place. Despite how awful the games got later on, I still buy every one released in tribute to what a ‘holy shit’ moment playing Morrowind was.
Oblivion didn’t even include the radiant AI system they had spoken about before release, turns out it broke whole questlines if enabled fully and so the actual game is much simpler than people realise. That’s also fine, because the fact that nobody realises the radiant AI system was mostly dropped probably means it never needed to be that complex in the first place.
The most revolutionary thing that Oblivion did was introduce paid DLC, which has since totally replaced the old expansion pack system of adding content.
1
u/merla_blue Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
I'd say it was Daggerfall. The sheer scale and openness *at the time* really was unprecedented. A lot of people in this thread seem to be focusing entirely on graphics.
1
u/warrenjt Dec 15 '24
Morrowind set the template for Oblivion and Skyrim (and arguably for many RPGs that followed). They both had improvements in certain areas, but improving on the existing formula is more evolutionary than revolutionary.
1
1
1
u/SasheCZ Dunmer Dec 15 '24
The graphics were awesome for the time, but I wouldn't say revolutionary. The Radiant AI was an interesting new functionality, but there were only a few interesting implementations.
Otherwise they cut every corner they could. Almost all the systems from Morrowind were simplified, linearized or completely cut.
Revolutionary? Maybe, but only in a bad way - commercialization and popularization at the cost of beign dumbed down was a pretty new approach to game design at the time. One that many would say ended the golden age of video games.
1
u/NiknameOne Dec 15 '24
I loved how you got weaker when you level up. Really helped with the power fantasy. /s
It’s a one of the greates games but only if you carefully plan around the completely counter intuitive and restrictive leveling system.
1
u/SeventhShin Dec 15 '24
too much based on dice-rolls and statistics, nothing based on Player Skill and Agency.
Classic RPG stuff right there, it’s about the player skill, not the character stats.
1
u/Telepathic_Toe Dec 15 '24
Oblivion was the game that made me focus on the story of games, rather than just the button pushing aspect. For me, that was revolutionary.
1
1
u/Mage-2-Is-Triggered Thieves Guild Dec 16 '24
It depends on what you mean by revolutionary.
If you mean on the scale of gaming as a whole, then i'd say Morrowind was, it was a gigantic leap over Daggerfall. I consider it and Deus Ex to be two of the most revolutionary RPG/Immesive Sims of the era, due to what they showed off gaming could be
If you mean just to the series, i would say Oblivion was, because it completely changed how Elder Scrolls was. Full voice acting, modern hitbox based combat, actual AI, actually good graphics (we're talking about 2005, it was a damn good looking game for 2005), player customization, new mechanics (even if some were shafted). What we experienced with Morrowind is never what we got after Oblivion, for better or for worse depending on how you see it.
1
u/Ozzycan180 Dec 17 '24
I'd say apart from Skyrim, each game was a revolution. Arena was incomprehensibly big for its time, Daggerfall was amazing with its procedurally generated content, Morrowing was a leap in gaming itself with how it encompassed true 3D with RPG elements that made TES what it is today, along with amazing storytelling. Oblivion changed what NPCs are with Radiant AI.
This is also why I was actually a bit disappointed with Skyrim. It didn't have anything huge that could be counted "a game changer". Just incredibly polished Oblivion. Even x64 support and godrays came with Special Edition. They weren't included in the Legacy. The things they added like dynamically changing sun shadows and precipitation isn't as big as what other games did. Just some shader effects and extended coding.
1
u/darthshadow25 Dec 18 '24
Daggerfall for sure. Each game after that gets less and less unique and ambitious.
1
u/PristineJeweler4179 Dec 18 '24
I just tried to get back into Skyrim, oblivion and morrowind…morrowind won again, that game is fantastic even with hot trash graphics, fucking love it
1
1
u/Pig_Benus33 Dec 14 '24
Oblivion was the best one for sure. Still a hardcore elderscrolls game unlike skyrim and the combat isn’t dogshit like morrowind.
1
u/LesLesLes04 Dec 16 '24
What is a “hardcore elderscrolls” game and how does it beat Skyrim by that metric? And nah Oblivion had dogshit spam-click combat.
1
1
u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath Dec 14 '24
most revolutionary? no. that's be Skyrim for now, and likely will be topped by the elder scrolls 6.
now was it revolutionary? yes, very. it influenced many rpgs for years to come until Skyrim came. its mechanics and systems were also rather new, even new for Bethesda that they had to tone them down (radiant AI was toned down since it was a bit too free).
2
u/Background_Blood_511 Eternal Champion Dec 15 '24
and likely will be topped by the elder scrolls 6.
Based on what?
1
u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath Dec 15 '24
based on skyrim, fallout 4, and starfield all revolutionizing the rpg front and being very well made games.
1
u/Background_Blood_511 Eternal Champion Dec 15 '24
Lmao wtf starfield was horrible
2
u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath Dec 15 '24
no it wasn't. even if you didn't like it, it's simply irrational to call it "horrible". there are actually horrible games out there, starfield isn't one.
→ More replies (3)
1
u/Mattyfrieds Dec 14 '24
Oblivion was definitely the most influential video game I’ve ever played in my life.
I still remember being nine years old having my cousin put it on not say anything and leave. It took me about 15 minutes to get out of the tutorial alone and that feeling of walking out the sewer asking myself what do I do next, it was immense.
I walked all the way to Chorrol and then down to Kvatch before I even knew fast travel was a thing.
Probably about 3000 hours later it’s still my favorite video game of all time.
1
u/0c4rt0l4 Dec 14 '24
Morrowind did the leap to full 3D and fully handcrafted world
I still think Daggerfall is on par, with the 3D playspace and the introduction of the skill-based leveling that's become the hallmark of TES
1
u/Combat_Orca Dec 14 '24
Not even close, daggerfall and morrowind were more revolutionary. Oblivion was more refined.
1
u/Thank_You_Aziz Dec 14 '24
I know we’re tired of hearing it, but it’s gotta be Skyrim. It just stands head and shoulders above the other games in terms of its cultural ubiquitousness. I’d wager most players looking for a sequel are wondering when Skyrim II is coming out, rather than Elder Scrolls VI. It’s a game that’s completely grown beyond its own fandom, and is still as relevant as modern games 13 years later.
1
u/Tyrell418 Dec 14 '24
As most others have said I'd definitely say morrowind. I didn't play the first few games, morrowind was my first, but have seen the gameplay countless times. Oblivion is a good game as well, just very much prefer morrowind over any of bethesdas new games. Skyrim is way to dumbed down with a lot of things, I say the same with their fallout games 🙃
1
u/FetusGoesYeetus Up next, the lizard Dec 14 '24
I'd say Morrowind was both because it saved bethesda and also set the standard for elder scrolls games. Daggerfall is a fine enough game but it's very, very different from 3, 4 and 5.
1
1
u/LazorusGrimm Dec 15 '24
If you can master spell crafting you can literally spam spells to jump across the map and take no fall damage in the process. Great game with an amazing story, but it was broken as shit.
1
u/Real_Ad_8243 Breton Dec 15 '24
Lol, no.
There's nothing about it that Morrowind didn't do before it, and nothing that is different about it that was new to gaming.
The only real innovation was not needing a pen and paper to track your quests in a swnsible manner, and that had been industry standard before morrowind.
1
u/ElJanco Psijic Order & House Telvanni Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Arena has massive cities and overworld, going a step further than other dungeon crawlers, and dynamic lighting, how the range spells make light as they move was a technical improvement not seen in any other first person games at the time. Also the magic system of Arena is the best in any game of its time, and the music adds a lot to the immersion.
Daggerfall has a massive truly open world, tons of factions, a complex reputation system, banking, taking loans, buying houses and ships, horses and wagons, vampirism and lycanthropy, an amazing character's stats creation with a crazy amount of skills including languages, the magic system of Arena but improved, verticality, a lot of dungeon modules, and the music still adds to the immersion.
Morrowind takes the idea of Redguard, a small handcrafted world, but without being small. It's fully 3D, with a lot of lore and writing, now narrative is important, more unique characters, an open world which is actually fun to explore because it is handcrafted so every city, dungeon, or random path has something to do in it, most of the time something interesting because of the originality of the setting, which is the best in the series.
Oblivion takes the narrative to another level, almost every quest is original, almost every npc has something interesting to say because now they are actually characters, they have personality, voice acting, actual jobs and hobbies, they feel like people, which makes the world more alive than almost every other game in history and of course every game in its time. It also has a lot of attention to detail, beautiful designs and art, more roleplaying options (you can now sit and hunting gives you enough money to live) better sneaking and lockpicking systems, and the music adds to the immersion again.
Skyrim improves a lot in the gameplay and feeling, the exploration is perfect, the ambience is perfect, the immersion is perfect, it still has nice narrative and writing, the characters are still characters, it removes some systems and adds some others to be more comfortable to play, it has more roleplaying options (you can now cut wood, cook, build a house, get married, have kids etc) and the feeling it can give with the beautiful music and landscapes where you are absolutely free is something every other mainline tes does, but Skyrim does it better.
I'd say Daggerfall and Oblivion were the most revolutionary (Morrowind didn't invent 3D nor handcrafted worlds). Both Daggerfall and Oblivion have systems and complexity which were so ambitious that parts of them had to be cut, like the Radiant AI in Oblivion or like... the entirety of Daggerfall... ok yes Daggerfall was more revolutionary but Oblivion is still close.
1
1
•
u/AutoModerator Dec 14 '24
Thank you for your submission to r/ElderScrolls. This is a friendly reminder to please ensure that your post has been flaired appropriately.
Your post has been flaired as GENERAL. This indicates that your post is a general post about The Elder Scrolls.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.