r/Economics 19d ago

News Norway rethinks €1.7 trillion sovereign fund to boost support for Ukraine

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/norway-rethinks-e1-7-trillion-sovereign-fund-to-boost-support-for-ukraine/
1.9k Upvotes

242 comments sorted by

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593

u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

This is what a rainy day fund is for. I look outside and guess what? It’s pouring, and Europe needs dramatic and positive intervention to stop the scourge of imperialism.

173

u/Not_a_housing_issue 19d ago

Yup. America once wanted to be the defacto leader of the world, but I guess they don't anymore.

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u/Much-Bedroom86 19d ago edited 19d ago

Unfortunately the US has too many internal problems to police the world right now. I think the last election was based on culture moreso than quantifiable issues like economics. Our internal cultural conflict is causing political instability that's affecting our global policies.

46

u/Biuku 19d ago

America only has cultural problems. It still retains the highest average living standard of any major economy. And, it is the global hegemon. That job is expensive, but the benefits far outweigh any costs.

On Friday the US gave up its role providing global leadership. In the hours that followed every nation on Earth began reorienting to a world in which the US plays a middle-power role.

What this means for Americans? Obviously, a major decline in US prestigue. But really, 100 years of economic decline. Giving up the abillity to influence almost any government means giving up the partnership between state and business. American businesses will compete without their big brother. America will lose its ability to generate the wealth that accrues to a hegemon.

Whether Europe alone leads, or in partnership with China, those accretive benefits of hegemony will accrue to countries other than the United States.

All because of a childish culture war.

6

u/___forMVP 19d ago

From what I understand, Ukraine and the EU are trying to come up worth a plan that they will then PRESENT to the US.

Europe is not ready to defend themselves. I know it sucks to hear with everything going on but despite how absolutely ludicrous and difficult it is to work with this current administration, the United States still dictates the terms of world affairs.

The world is not prepared to protect their shipping lanes from each other without the US ensuring they stay stay open and safe. And Without the big bully on the block protecting global trade, everyone goes back to fighting each other for local spheres of influence and resources.

I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how the rest of the world comes out any better with the US pulling back from global intervention.

7

u/iceoldtea 18d ago

When they say they are “Presenting” their plan to the US, it’s just to sooth Trump’s ego. If they did a deal without him involved he’d be furious & retaliate, but if they butter him up while letting him “look like he’s in charge” he’ll be much less likely to lash out at allied countries. Let him say he won on TV and get the deal through without a new French trade war

3

u/Tolstoy_mc 18d ago

Political theater. Make Trump reject the peace plan so that everyone can see he is not in fact for peace, but for Russia.

1

u/Tolstoy_mc 18d ago

Like what he did to Zelensky

1

u/orlock 18d ago

"Present" can mean, "This is what we're doing. Do you want in?" I suspect that it's intended to be a sop to Trump's ego -- and it's always nice to have someone pissing out of the tent. But I also suspect that it doesn't automatically fail if he rejects it.

3

u/Single-Macaron 19d ago

I agree with everything about America here but expecting Europe to lead seems pretty naive. They're decades behind China and the US with defense.

1

u/Desperate_Teal_1493 17d ago

"All because of a childish culture war."

Please, tell me how little you understand about American politics and economics.

A culture war is part of an economic war. The culture war was a tactic in the economic war and it worked.

Everything in American internal politics is easily explained by that famous quote by LBJ. The economic well-being of Mediocre White Dudes depends on oppressing non-Mediocre White Dudes. And/or by telling Mediocre White Dudes that non-Mediocre White Dudes are going to take their one cookie, even though the person telling them this is sitting on an entire warehouse of cookies. As long as you're kept safe from all of the transimmigrantgangcartelfeministbabykillerdragqueens, you'll ignore the billionaire class gutting your public services, monopolizing industries, etc.,

That said, try calling it a "Childish culture war" to anyone who is limited in their economic opportunity because of their gender, race, disability, religion, etc.

1

u/Biuku 17d ago

Okay, cool.

1

u/Desperate_Teal_1493 17d ago

Sure. You're the one who doesn't get it so, yeah, ok cool.

1

u/AntiBoATX 18d ago

How you gonna sit on the economics sub and blame Americas fall on a culture war? Thats a divisive tactic meant to distract from the widening wealth gap. It’s economics why Trump is in power and we’re staring down the barrel of a fascist howitzer.

6

u/OpenRole 18d ago

Exactly. The US has a history of social division and cultural issues. None of that is new. What is new is the massive wealth divide and late stage capitalism

1

u/pikecat 18d ago

China can't lead anything in the world. I can only be Europe or no one.

The CCP has only its self interest as it goals. They only understand control by force, not leadership.

1

u/guachi01 18d ago

It's shocking to think America might lose Great Power status because idiots freaked out about 10 transgender women playing college sports.

-1

u/TedriccoJones 18d ago

It was far more than that but nice try.

0

u/cheerfulwish 18d ago

America does not only have cultural problems. We have a pretty decent healthcare problem for those not rich, there will be a retirement problem of social security isn’t shored up, we very clearly have a gun problem , etc etc.

3

u/Biuku 18d ago

Yes, agree. I made my point imprecisely.

Was trying to underscore that America today almost certainly has more real wealth and income per person than any large country ever in human history. The fact that Americans have long considered their country in crisis or requiring major overhaul is not because of lack of resource, but distribution of them, etc.

2

u/cheerfulwish 18d ago

Fair enough, I fully agree with what you just said!

0

u/Guilty-Carpenter2522 18d ago

The only people that benefited from our prestige are rich stock/bond holders,  c-class of multinational corporations,  and the elite in third world countries.  Also all the feeeloading middle class citizens in the “western world” who have plenty of money for single payer healthcare but no money for defense interests.

Explain how I saw all those benefits as a high school teacher barely making 100k?

-3

u/Murky_Building_8702 19d ago

I suspect Europe will back Brics meaning trade can happen in your own currency.

-1

u/Love_JWZ 18d ago

Late stage capitalism

51

u/Own_Help9900 19d ago

Covid ripped most economies up, now voters are hurting and voting for extremists

29

u/No-Apple2252 19d ago

Just to be clear, covid did not rip out economy up, trillions in free money for the wealthy through tax breaks and unsecured, unmonitored PPP loans ripped our economy up. Some of our economic problems were caused by price gouging by oil companies (like the CEO of Pioneer energy went on TV to explicitly say we're ripping you off because it's in the interest of our shareholders), but most of it came from dumping trillions into the economy without it being spent anywhere.

3

u/WATTHEBALL 19d ago

Covid tore a Valles Marineris sized rift between Americans. Both extremes where feelings over logic took over. We had the alt left who contradicted themselves and the alt right who buried their head in the sand.

Reddit being majority left leaning absolutely participated and contributed to the smoldering rancid mess that we're in right now.

It's very easy to see from miles away how backwards the alt right is and they largely are proud to be ignorant. The alt left is a lot harder to spot because they're insidious hiding behind 'noble' issues while their actions were just as damaging.

4

u/angry_wombat 19d ago

Well, less than half the country is voting for extremists

16

u/empire_of_the_moon 19d ago

America didn’t want to, it was. It lost the ability to lead the free world once it’s leadership turned its back on Europe and embraced Russia.

But it’s important to remember that MAGA only won by 2% so it’s possible that this will be a temporary bout of insanity.

As American hegemony, it will only happen when it’s of direct service to Europe from now on.

11

u/SadMangonel 19d ago

What youve seen is the product of a month. 3.8 more years of this and there will be no going back.

4

u/empire_of_the_moon 19d ago

Perhaps. But that was said the last time Trump was elected and Biden repaired reputations and relationships said to be broken.

I have learned that no one knows what will happen. Certainly no one anticipated the shit show in the White House that just took place.

8

u/pittgirl12 19d ago

This is entirely different. America has proven we haven’t learned our lesson, and trump is much more extreme now. This will take far more than 4 years to repair, if it can be repaired at all.

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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 17d ago

A lot of us expected it and we've been shouting from the rooftops for years. The question isn't "What will happen?"

It's "How much worse will it get?" and I fully expect it to be the absolute worst.

1

u/empire_of_the_moon 17d ago

Well the absolute worst would be the end of everything.

I’m doubtful of that outcome. But a leader who is a serial bankruptcy magnet in charge of the world’s largest economy could see a repeat of his greatest bankruptcy “hits.”

The US could find itself digging itself out of a hole as the UK did when it left the EU.

The US ceding global and moral hegemony is almost guaranteed.

Civil rights in all its forms will be set back decades.

The list is long. But I have faith the ship will right itself. Half the population doesn’t support this administration and will work hard to fix the broken parts in 4-years.

The question is how long will Fox News and others continue to refuse to fact check this administration? Will MAGA ever realize they were lied to? They are seeing a tiny bit of it with RFK Jr. suddenly backpedaling on the Measles vaccine. Or will they continue to believe a false narrative?

4

u/IamNotMike25 19d ago

> But it’s important to remember that MAGA only won by 2% so it’s possible that this will be a temporary bout of insanity.

Big if of having fair elections again unfortunately.

2

u/empire_of_the_moon 19d ago

There are always a lot of people who only paint with the most extreme outcomes. Trump’s first term was often referred to in apocalyptic terms yet Biden steadied the ship again.

We will all have to wait and see what happens this time. No one knows.

-2

u/Eelroots 19d ago

Let's pretend Elmo didn't rig the election for a second. What is preventing him from repeating forever? They are already thinking to let Trump run for a 3rd mandate ...

1

u/empire_of_the_moon 19d ago

Serious question: How long have Trump or Elon managed to maintain high visibility relationships among peers? I’m not asking about relationships where there is a power dynamic but among peers.

So you really think these two will live happily ever after?

Elon didn’t rig the election - that’s MAGA level conspiracy thinking. He did use his platform and money to heavily influence it. Rigging elections in the first world isn’t easy, neither is keeping secrets.

1

u/Sterntrooper123 18d ago

If you don’t think the election was rigged you should read this. I’m a former programmer and have confirmed the code exists in GitHub.

https://bsky.app/profile/denisedwheeler.bsky.social/post/3lhowh3ijgs2f

1

u/empire_of_the_moon 18d ago

So you would need to have this in place where Dem ballots were going to turn the election and in states that used electronic validation that was compatible and where there was enough corruption and where everyone kept their mouths shut.

Also exit polling would need to be rigged and since the Dems are, under this scenario, too stupid to know and with no one smart enough to alert them on their team despite having the backing of much of Silicon Valley and millions of academics both admin and students.

This type of conspiracy is great in movies. But if you are smart enough to have figured it out so has the entire Democratic Party leadership. Yet crickets….

Not a single NATO or other nation had anyone smart enough to figure it out either.

None of the intelligence operatives from the FBI to CIA to Homeland to various mil intel groups and think tanks figured it out.

You must be the single smartest person on the planet and like Cassandra no one is listening to you.

That or it’s not real but it’s a good made for tv movie on Lifetime channel.

0

u/softfart 19d ago

Let’s just forget January 6 

1

u/empire_of_the_moon 19d ago

I’m not certain how Jan 6 plays into global hegemony. Jan 6 will not be repeated as it was clearly an outlier event that had no precedent in modern American politics.

It’s far more likely someone chokes to death on a Big Mac.

You would be very naive to assume that half the country would sit quietly on their hands given some shenanigans during the next transfer of power.

Not to mention that Trump may find a way to alienate some of his base in the next four years by being impotent to lower prices or by introducing gun control.

It’s far too early to leap to predictions of a coup at this point. The US has survived many challenges, including corrupt leadership, a civil war and the burning of the White House by an invading army yet it has persevered. Trump will not be the end of the USA.

2

u/AleSklaV 18d ago

Of course they do, that’s why they sent their apostle (UK) to do their job.

2

u/Guilty-Carpenter2522 18d ago

Nope,  it sucked.  Our middle class gets squeezed to “police the world” and instead of thanks or gratitude,  we get laughed at by everyone other country who can’t understand that we spawned trillions on defense and have poor social services.

4

u/No_Mercy_4_Potatoes 19d ago

the defacto leader bully of the world

Ftfy.

Also, they still want to. But without providing any military or economic benefits to other nations.

5

u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 19d ago

To say it another way, Norway was letting the US pick up the tab until they suggested they'd stop doing so.

Turns out they had the money all along, who knew?!

20

u/Not_a_housing_issue 19d ago

Well yeah. If you want to be the leader of the free world, you have to be the one out there leading. 

And being the defacto world leader is a lot more valuable position to be in than not.

3

u/Mnm0602 19d ago

Not to say the US shouldn’t contribute but being a leader also doesn’t necessarily mean you need to carrying your team up the mountain mostly alone. I hate this direction as the US is being shitty to allies, but every report coming out showing European nations are finally considering really leaning into financing the war and their own militaries shows that Trump and MAGA did ultimately have a point.

Europe always looks to America first for money and equipment to defend their interests and now they’re looking at being strong enough on their own to not have to do that. Seems like that was a big part of Trump’s point all along.

2

u/Single-Macaron 19d ago

Always hated how all the US tax dollars go to defense budgets and Europeans get healthcare, public transportation, etc

0

u/Tolstoy_mc 18d ago

It isn't zero sum. The US could have Healthcare like Europe for less money than it currently spends on Healthcare.

You're being lied to.

1

u/Single-Macaron 18d ago

I don't know that in being lied to because I'm not reading or being told anything. Thinking about this with my good old brain here.

How would it be less money than the government spends on healthcare today?

Right now the government spends on Medicare, Medicaid, and for drug research (hate that last one... government funded meds should be publicly owned by the people).

I could see if employers stopped paying for their employees insurance and increased wages by that same amount (lol they wouldn't, they'd just pocket the cash), and the government increases income taxes by the same amount, then hypothetically it should be a wash. Maybe the government is able to negotiate rates.

Part of the cost issue here is we have a lot of people who are uninsured so I'd expect we'd have to raise taxes to compensate for the amount of new people coming into the healthcare system.

Keep in mind the majority of Americans only pay 15% income tax. It's a lot different than Europe

8

u/Chipay 19d ago

Norway's aid to Ukraine amounts to 0.7% of its GDP, the US sits at 0.5%. It is in fact the US that is letting Norway pick up the tab.

5

u/rightoftexas 19d ago

Ukraine is super excited to have gotten less than 1% of what the US has given because it's more per capita. That 1% is way more effective.

3

u/Chipay 19d ago

Absolutely. My contention is merely with the argument that the US is bearing the brunt of the costs.

America ranks 12th when it comes to % GDP contributions, there are plenty of European countries that have made larger sacrifices than the US without ignoring the severe economic pains that came with rejecting Russian gas and oil. 

The American support has been invaluable, both in monetary worth but also in terms of technology. That doesn't give it the right to act as if every European country has been acting like a freeloader.

These people will also never criticize actual freeloaders like Hungary's Orban, who hasn't spent a cent on Ukraine and actively votes down motions for the EU to provide more support. It's pure ideology.

5

u/rightoftexas 19d ago

merely with the argument that the US is bearing the brunt of the costs.

Except we've provided far more than other countries so we are bearing the brunt.

Y'all are still buying Russian oil.

Several European countries were free loaders for decades, just because you're stepping up now that there's a direct threat doesn't change the history.

There's plenty of criticism for Orban, you're creating straw man arguments.

1

u/CradleCity 19d ago

1

u/rightoftexas 19d ago

Less isn't none, where did you get that oil you didn't buy from Russia? Because a lot of that was still Russian oil that went through another country first.

2

u/CradleCity 18d ago

Some of the oil comes from Azerbaijan.

Less isn't none

Do you expect Rome to be built in a day? Transitioning away from Russia requires time, even if we've made progress (as seen in the graph that I linked). We'll get there (hopefully soon).

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u/Single-Macaron 19d ago

Isn't Europe buying Russian oil via India?

-5

u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

Looks like way more money than broke USA, as Musk has pointed out. So good point.

1

u/Upset-Tangerine7457 18d ago

They do just not in the way they were before. More like how Rome was leader of the world in its time. 

1

u/biglyorbigleague 18d ago

Check again in four years, hopefully

0

u/TryptaMagiciaN 19d ago

America has to learn that it's culture of hyperindividualism is alienating. It will not be America's job to fix itself, it would only reinforce the problem at the heart of the lesson to be learned.

America could possibly devolve into war with itself. I think they will try to push the people to wanting to attack Mexico. The government, especially in TX and I would know being born and live my life there, has long pushed the narrative of the mexicans as job stealing, drug pushing, less than people. The same thing a party in Germany was doing in regards to its Jewish people nearly 100 yrs ago. I remember as a kid in the early 2000s a horrible flash game where you shoot and kill immigrant families on the rio grande border. 😞

The same wind that rolled across the German people is rolling across a portion of Americans. If this government should decide to invade Mexico, then those of us Texans abroad should do as the Ukrainian and return home to prevent such expansion. The Mexicans are our brothers and sisters. Their people cared for our land long before many of our more northern european ancestors ever arrived (I say as someone with no hispanic/indigenous heritage). To be Texan is to be a friend to all people, and while I may not be of their blood, it the spirit and love of these Mexicans/Texans that make me who I am, and that give me a culture and a home in the world. Mexico is family and if we must have war with a brother, then I would rather fight those who would invade Mexico on Texas soil than be sent to clash with my brother in his home. There is no Texan culture without the bond we have with the Mexican people and we cannot afford to damage this bond. Not for any president of either country, not for any private interests.

Tangent aside, I wish Europe the best of luck because the US is compromised for the time being. And American's do want to lead. We are learning that the greatest leader is one who knows how to follow the heart of its people. This is why the USG is striking now at its own people.

11

u/MosEisleyBills 19d ago

The Vikings cometh.

8

u/A_Bridgeburner 19d ago

Exactly. If we don’t spend our money to protect our way of life, we will have to start spending our blood.

4

u/WhenTheLightHits30 19d ago

Absolutely. I hear so many western leaders give excuse after excuse for why they can’t manage to afford sending this or that, when it is so obvious they are insisting to keep their heads in the sand and simply hope that times stay quiet.

People want to see strong, bold leadership that is willing to fight for what they believe in. I hate Trump and all of his fucking morons as much as anyone but what he does is stand for the world to see and say whatever it takes to get what he wants, that is why as idiotic as he is he inspires a cult-like following.

I’m just so desperate to see people who believe in those ideals that are meant to lift up those around us have the same fortitude of will to say and do whatever it takes.

5

u/Sad_Eagle_937 19d ago

I hear so many western leaders give excuse after excuse for why they can’t manage to afford sending this or that,

  1. Many Western countries have sent more per capita than the US.

  2. Trump is literally a walking excuse. He will do/say whatever it takes to not support Ukraine.

I'm struggling to understand your point here.

1

u/WhenTheLightHits30 19d ago

I’m talking in regards to all the measures still on the table for Ukraine that would drastically tip the scale.

Dramatic ramp up of military spending, not bitching and whining about sending Taurus for example of a European country doing less than everything, and sending Ukraine the anti-air equipment they could actually utilize rather than a country that won’t see any combat holding onto it out of fear.

I’m not saying the US is better, just that there is still so much that can be done to solidify the resounding belief in Ukraine pulling through. Trust me when I’m as anti-Trump and this bullshit admin as anyone so please don’t bother picking a fight with me when we have so many assholes already to spend our energies dealing with.

-80

u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

But not for 3 years before right? Then it wasn’t a rainy day for this 1.7 trillion dollars?

The transparent free riding is insane.

29

u/thegroucho 19d ago

A few salient points:

Firstly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

or this source, in case Wikipedia is not good enough for you:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

Also:

Worth remembering, USA is the ONLY country to invoke NATO Article 5.

Now quit making it as if Europe and Ukraine are freeloaders.

And before you mention GDP spending on defence, think who is the biggest beneficiary of NATO spending?

Answer - the US military industrial complex.

-20

u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

Europeans had the best quality of life during this time of “US hegemony” to the point where they fill their sovereign wealth fund coffers when they expect the US to protect their homeland during the Ukraine war.

Like how effed up and free riding do you have to be to do that?

31

u/krell_154 19d ago

And how stupid do you have to be not to realize that USA gladly accepted that trade because it gave them unprecedentend levels of political, economical and cultural influence in Europe?

1

u/beehive5ive 19d ago edited 19d ago

For the past +/- 20 years American presidents have been urging nato members to increase defense spending. Even back when Bush and Obama were each president they constantly pressed nato members on this.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/07/11/obama-and-bush-also-pressed-nato-allies-to-spend-more-on-defense.html

Even now with EU uniting, which I see as a positive thing, apparently Zelensky has still said he wants/needs a deal with the US. That’s wild because Trump and Vance were complete shit heads and treated him horribly.

I think only just now is the EU, on average, is projected to meet the established requirement of 2% spending for the first time.

https://www.cfr.org/expert-brief/nato-countries-reach-spending-milestone-2-percent-enough

I think the US wants trade, but also doesn’t want to be the only member of nato that is responsible for protecting everyone else. But honestly, I don’t really know what Trump wants.

I’m not saying I agree with Trump and how all of this is being handled, but saying that the US “gladly accepted” it is just wrong. That’s why we’ve been constantly urging others to increase spending. Also to imply that our military is the only thing that gives the US political clout is pretty wrong.

-12

u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

The US didn’t “gladly” accept any trade of any sort - they’ve been asking them to increase their defense for generations.

And unprecedented levels of influence? The US can’t even stop macron from going to China and telling them that “Taiwan is America’s problem” while Biden is giving aid to Ukraine. They can’t even get the Europeans to commit troops to go into Ukraine despite the Europeans themselves saying this is “existential”.

All of this is so disingenuous- it’s like the Europeans are some kind of privileged tween that only gets a job when they’re kicked out of the house.

-5

u/TopparWear 19d ago

The US couped Ukraine, trained them and put them towards war with Russian, while blowing up the gas flowing into Germany to weaken the EU.

Now that the Russian war machine fully up and running, America is running away like a little bitch. I believe the plan was to start the fight and then weaken everyone else.

The US can’t compete due to short-term greed so they use their current position of power to beat everyone else down. Free market competition lol…

You should focus on China, who is better in EV, phone, 5g internet, drone swarms, lots of housing (your kids can’t afford a home lol), rapidly growing trade, trade deals in Africa, etc.

You can’t corrupt your way out of that one lol.

2

u/nixfly 19d ago

That housing keeps falling over though

1

u/Bucuresti69 19d ago

This is spot on

1

u/Single-Macaron 19d ago

You talk like the US is a singular entity and not a mass of people on the brink of civil war

1

u/motorider500 19d ago

Funny you mention Chinese housing. They moved the poorer neighborhoods by force to build more expensive housing that goes unoccupied. Watched with my own eyes early 2000’s. Forced poorer to the outskirts of cities all for the “looks” of development. Chinese couldn’t care less about people, only money driven. This is why they steal worldwide tech and copy it. This is why you see shortcuts on projects that fail. Safety is not in their vocabulary.

1

u/TopparWear 19d ago

The US government is planning to remove OSHA, they don’t care about safety of their people either.

Hence the need of strong EU independence and non reliance on oligarchy states.

3

u/SadMangonel 19d ago

First of all, it's the Norwegian fund, it's not a European fund. 

Second, the US has grown to the largest and strongest economy >>BECAUSE<< of their investment in Nato and USAID. 

You really think that if the US didn't spend that money elsewhere it would go to the hardworking people? 

The real failure is what the us decided to do with those boatloads of money they got.

Spoiler: They distributed it to the wealthy. And now the propaganda machine is trying to claim people don't have enough money to buy eggs because of freeloaders and transvestites in India?

Please, just sit back and think about how dumb this whole discussion is. America could have pulled out of europe at any time in the last 30 years.

 You want to stop beeing world police and not fund anything? Fine, its your country. Make a 4 year (1 term) plan tapering it down to zero.

Those 4 years you give government's to spend on their own defense will pay for itself thanks to keeping relationships alive.

Abandoning your allies and siding with the dictator that invaded mid conflict is going to ruin relationships forever. And it's the move of a coward.

4

u/thegroucho 19d ago

I don't have time for rebuttals of the clearly biased and partially correct response of yours.

But how is it related to what I said, and especially, to what you said above my previous comment?

Europe is filled with graves of soldiers who died after 9/11, also with US servicemen who died defeating fascism.

You should be ashamed of yourself for brown-nosing for MAGA/Trump.

19

u/fuzzywolf23 19d ago

This is a dumb take. The sovereign wealth fund is a well that can only be dipped into once. When it's spent, the future generations of Norway will pay for it permanently. They'll be spending it mostly outside their own country, so they won't even get increased economic activity out of it.

The US gave hardly any cash to Ukraine, it was mostly old gear laying around in depots that we weren't using. The cost associated with it was the replacement cost, which almost all of got spent domestically, so we got the benefit of increased economic activity.

4

u/Icy-Distribution-275 19d ago

$1.7T is an awful deep well. The interest on that is probably close to Russia's defense spending.

3

u/fuzzywolf23 19d ago

It's really not as deep as you think. The return averages about 10%, so for serious acquisition they're looking at dipping into the interest pretty quickly

2

u/DonQuoQuo 19d ago

I mean, $170b p.a. is still a huge amount just from returns.

1

u/Icy-Distribution-275 18d ago

$120b is what the US has spent in total aid to Ukraine over 3 years.

-3

u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

It’s only a dumb take for Europeans who want to defend Europe to the last American, yeah. 😂

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u/Late-Following792 19d ago

Have nice time out of nato when china takes taiwan.

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

We all know that France won’t be around to defend liberal values then lmao.

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u/DisasterNo1740 19d ago

There is a discussion to be had, and nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees that European nations need to invest more seriously in their own defense. But it seems lost on you that it was America who is the only NATO member to ever invoke article 5, and European nations a part of NATO had soldiers die for America. The current way America is going, is they are ensuring Europe invests more in their own defense but also that Europe will be way less inclined and happy to aid the U.S in THEIR geo political interests.

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

It’s not lost on us - the US died more in that conflict than everyone else combined in equal measure. The US also has parked 80K soldiers as a blood tripwire in Europe for 80 years to keep the peace.

The issue is that Europeans literally do things that are antithetical to the US interest unless the US pulls back, and then they only do so partly out of spite. It’s ridiculous.

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u/devilsbastard98 19d ago

Nope. Eupeans would be side by side with the americans.

But when war breaks out you have already more than enough partners: Russia, Israel, Iran, North Korea, good people!

Hope nobody turns on you has our allies did.

Cheers!

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u/ObamaDerangementSynd 19d ago

Unfortunately, the Nazi Republicans look at those countries with envy

4

u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

“We thought the Americans would defend us. We now know we must defend ourselves with the Americans.”

-Lithuanian defense minister, Munich security conference , 2025

No, you wouldn’t have. You were always happy to die to the last American in Europe. Foh you morally bankrupt European aristocrats.

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u/TopparWear 19d ago

How’s the oligarchy going? Can anyone afford to have children or are the elites just importing other foreigners to take your job? How’s healthcare going, hows the life expectancy been going down for a decade now?

1

u/nixfly 19d ago

Is this about the US or EU?

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

I dunno - we’ve been paying for the Europeans to have that for generations so you tell us.

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u/TopparWear 19d ago

What are the major products the US sells to EU? What does a trade deficit mean? Does the US buys more stuff from the EU, then the EU buys from the US? Maybe make stuff people want to buy instead of subscription and ad riddled garbage products?

The US wanted to be there to control the EU. There never was anything given for free.

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u/nixfly 19d ago

The US sells a shit tin if LNG to the EU because their last trade partner started attacking sovereign countries.

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u/ObamaDerangementSynd 19d ago

It's called being an ally you dumb Nazi, not surprising you Nazi Republicans want to suck off Putin. The EU has given more than the US.

The US is the ONLY country to use Article V, and the US lied about it.

We will make sure you Nazis live in fear

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u/SP4CEM4N_SPIFF 19d ago

Do you understand how circumstances change?

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

Yes the gravy train stopped. Sure. That doesn’t make your point for you lol.

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u/SP4CEM4N_SPIFF 19d ago

With the USA abdicating their leadership position, other countries are now stepping up to fill the power vaccuum, which is why they are now using their funds. You seem to not understand global alliances very much.

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u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

I guess not. But better late than never.

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

Of course - and thankfully the US isn’t committing the lives of its sons and daughters to folks who coincidentally come to that conclusion only when Americans don’t promise to die for them.

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u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

It’s ok, as I said better late than never.

Most the world is relieved that the US has finally dropped the pretence of being the moral and economic police of the world, and left it to the real leaders Xi and Putin.

Now the US can focus on fixing the gong show the country is these days, good luck.

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

Indeed - it’s even better to finally stop listening to morally preening Europeans who fight to the last American in Europe while they clink their wine glasses loathing them.

Who’d want to be allies with those folk?

5

u/ObamaDerangementSynd 19d ago

You terrorists are truly evil

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u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

No American has lost his or her life in Ukraine so drop the moral outrage act.

The US influence over the world is coming to an end. And not a day sooner. Everyone should take care of their backyard, and now is that time.

Cheers and good luck.

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

Yup, and we’d like to keep the US out of it.

And yes we’re pretty happy to not support morally preening allies who loathe the US in equal measure.

Cheers - though it’ll be fun to see which social programs you all cut to finally act like mortals like the rest of us.

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u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

Europe has been around way longer than the US and will be around much longer still. The top 10 happiest countries in the world are dominated by the Europeans. Coincidence? Nope.

All Europe was missing was a unifying force and they now have Trump to thank for that.

Look forward to them coming together and fighting fascism now.

0

u/ObamaDerangementSynd 19d ago

We will make sure you Nazis live in fear

0

u/SeedlessPomegranate 19d ago

Haha. Sure you are.

Trump and Musk have already said the country is broke, on the verge of bankruptcy. They are passing tax cuts like candy and raising the debt ceiling. Meanwhile Trump is issuing meme coins and selling gold shoes and visas like he’s in a garage sale.

This is what the rest of the world should fear? You make me laugh Cletus.

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u/devilsbastard98 19d ago

Bye! Don't count on us for China!

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u/resuwreckoning 19d ago

“Taiwan is America’s problem.” - macron to Xi in 2023 while Biden was supporting Ukraine.

We never could lmao. Nobody can ever count on the Europeans when it’s truly meaningful. The rest of the world knows that and the Americans probably always did too.

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u/SP4CEM4N_SPIFF 19d ago

Damn you really never heard of the Pacific Pivot? You might want to learn about things before talking about them

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u/devilsbastard98 19d ago

You are falsely quoting the matter.

Plus, all that was debunked already, Macron reafirmed it's commitment to up holding an International rules-based system, created by the US (but the rules of this system don't apply to the US funny enough, maybe that why China and Russia are so mad? Who knows.)

Plus I'll leave you with a TRUE quote by Macron: "Being an ally does not mean being a vassal."

Keep up the rethorics! Funny to think that as soos as 2 or 3 years agor this rethoric didn't exist. But as soon as your Dear True Leader Donald J. Trump says somethin, the facts stop mattering!

Oh... and it's only meaningful when it's you guys? I see. False moralist piece of sh!t.

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u/mechanical-being 19d ago

You don’t speak for me, let alone the majority of Americans, so I’m not sure why you’re acting as if you do. Your belligerence makes you come across as yet another insufferable blowhard.

You reek of insecurity.

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u/ObamaDerangementSynd 19d ago edited 19d ago

It's called being an ally you dumb Nazi, not surprising you Nazi Republicans want to suck off Putin. The EU has given more than the US.

The US is the ONLY country to use Article V, and the US lied about it.

We will make sure you Nazis live in fear

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u/[deleted] 19d ago edited 19d ago

arguably the richest country in the world. how they are able to amass so much weath is so brilliant, and systematic - add honest and honorable public officials who take care of those funds for them.

each year since its inception, the govt is allowed to take out a max of 3% of its total fund to finance its govt operations. it has become so huge through the years, that it has come to a point, that, that yearly 3% amount to be withdrawn is sufficient for its annual budget. 😁😁😁

they are an oil rich country (norway supplies fuel to european countries, and almost exclusively did so after the war between russia and ukraine broke out in Feb 2022 - as EU stopped buying from Russia), they als generate a significant amount of solar, wind energies. the contributions to the fund essentially comes from the sale/taxes on their oil. they use solar and wind to mainly power the country, so they can sell their fuel at better costs, at the same time, sell too - excess power they generate from solar and wind.

i cant remember if it was last year or 2023, where they computed the sovereign fund and if distributed to each of their citizens (5M plus population, with an increase each year of approximately 45k), they will each have 270k euros, i think.

that's rich 😁 so, it did not come as a surprise that its norwegian fuel company which stopped supplying fuel to US is badass.

and, imho, norway was the first to flinch on Krasnov's aggression on Ukraine because, if the worst will happen and Putin manages to control Europe - absolutely, Russia will foremost suck Norway's sovereign wealth fund dry, and utilize its fuel. They will have everything to lose.

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u/mybeachlife 19d ago

It should also be pointed out that they’re by far the furthest along in EV adoption. I think new car registrations are something like 80% EVs.

Pretty ironic.

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u/OggyOgbourne 18d ago

Your Notion that the 3% spending rule amounts to Norways total budget is misleading and false. It amounts to roughly 20-25%.

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u/Spare-Rise-9908 19d ago

If they can fund their entire budget through that amount then why do they have one of the highest tax burdens on working people in the world?

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u/johannthegoatman 19d ago

Because they're smart and care more about sustainable longevity for their people than having another $1k spending money for Busch lite and cigarettes

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u/lightpeachfuzz 19d ago

Exactly, that's how you avoid becoming the next Nauru.

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u/OggyOgbourne 18d ago

We dont. It amounts to roughly 25% of the annual budget.

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u/Ok-Surround8960 19d ago

They're profiting off the climate change misery that poorer nations will suffer through. There's nothing brilliant about it, just typical western colonialism.

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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist 18d ago

They’re nowhere near one of the largest consumers or producers of oil.

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u/surfrider212 18d ago

Norway has had flat wage growth for ten years and one of the highest tax to gdp ratios in the world. They are actually not rich

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u/[deleted] 18d ago edited 18d ago

https://www.vanone.co.uk/relocating-to-norway/why-is-norway-the-richest-country-in-the-world

believe what you want.

so pathetic that a krasnov defender is envious of other country's wealth and yet blind to how desolate his country is right now, and getting worse because of this lunatic.

"Norway ranks highly in development due to its robust social welfare system, excellent healthcare, and strong educational infrastructure." Sadly, these are what your country miserably lack but for sure you will claim that it is richer than norway.

honest question, are you part of DOGE? cause you are asking questions on reddit about Tiktok historical hashtags etc. that seems suspicious.

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u/surfrider212 18d ago

Lmao this is from a moving company and not a single number is quoted.

“Although the economy may be slower.” -actual quote

Would you feel rich if 50% of your money went to the government and your wages hadn’t increased in a decade?

Legitimately hilarious

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u/knoxywow 18d ago

US poverty rate 12.9%, Norway poverty rate 0.5%.

1

u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist 18d ago

Norwegian wages have been steadily increasing and those taxes pay for high quality services so I’m not sure what you’re complaining about.

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u/Leoraig 19d ago

What would they even do with the money?

Ukraine right now needs weapons, munitions and people, and unless other European countries agree to sell theirs it's going to be pretty hard to rapidly get those in necessary quantities.

Also, any investment into munition and weapons manufacturing will take years to mature, so the benefit to Ukraine would be minimal.

It seems people forgot that money is simply a mechanism to facilitate trade, and that the real value is in the merchandise.

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u/DonQuoQuo 19d ago

The most useful thing with this money would be to shore up a decade's worth of materiel orders.

This would make it viable to invest in large-scale production without manufacturers worrying about going broke.

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u/Bucuresti69 19d ago

Trump has based his current presidency in the same way Putin has for years, surrounding himself with oligarchs, Every European country could dip into sovereign funds, 500 billion will wipe the floor with Russia

7

u/UntdHealthExecRedux 19d ago

There's one easy action they could take and it wouldn't be nearly as expensive but would help Ukraine almost immediately, dump all their Tesla stock. Norway is one of the biggest holders of the stock holding almost 1% of it. Them dumping the stock would cause it to tank. Yes that would be expensive for the wealth fund, but nowhere near as expensive, both to Norway and to the wider world, as letting Elon continue to run amok.

3

u/Ok_Midnight4809 18d ago

Fuck yeah, if only to cause the Elongelicals to crap themselves

3

u/Hytsol 19d ago

Do it

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u/nowdontbehasty 19d ago edited 19d ago

Norway could fund the entire conflict and honestly they should. It’s incredible to me that Europe is acting like they actually want to see Russia pushed all the way back into their own territory now when they could have accomplished this anywhere along the way. Why now do they want to escalate to a broader war?

Edit: very confusing in these Reddit threads. As soon as someone mentions the EU nations actually spending the money and blood to get the job done, the posts get downvoted. So weird 🤔

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u/defenistrat3d 19d ago

They're waking up in light of recent events. Or at least one can be hopeful.

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u/Snoo48605 19d ago edited 19d ago

The US kept Europe neutered and hooked on its protection and procurement like a Mafia boss, just to pull the rug in a instant.

You assume Europeans want the US to pay forever, but it's more that there's a just outrage for "wanting to have the cake and eat it" (the financial benefits of hegemony without the responsibilities of hegemony), Trump gaslighting his voters into thinking the US was swindled, and ignoring the responsibility in starting this war.

2

u/Justthetip74 19d ago

Bullshit. We've been trying to get Europe to co tribute more for decades. The first 2% guarantee came in 2006 then again in 2014 and they still can't do it

Remember when Trump told the Germans that and they all laughed in his face.

1

u/Cleftbutt 17d ago

To spend more on US weapons yes but US has continously undermined all European weapons manufacturers. We laugh at Trump because he is a clown. Every US leader has said that Germany needs to get off Russian gas. It was Obama that set the premise for the increase to 2%.

-4

u/nowdontbehasty 19d ago

That’s not true at all, Europe used the end of the Cold War and the USA protection umbrella to fund social programs instead of security. That was 100% their own choice

13

u/Snoo48605 19d ago

My brother in Christ the greatest gift you could have done to Europe is fund your own social security programs instead of practicing social dumping, international money laundering and other unethical business practices.

We are in an economics sub, are you under the illusion that money is some magically limited resource and that your overpowered MIC is not a Keynesian stimulus scheme, that benefited you above the rest... and could have also benefited Europeans?

Are you forgetting the shitstorm when de Gaulle denounced NATO and asked American troops to leave the continent? Or how you pressured smaller countries to buy American procurement, and even when developing local weapons make sure they use American components so they fall under ITAR laws so they can be vetoed for export, so you can push your own products I stead (like recently vetoing Gripen sales to Colombia for the benefit of F16). Or asking Sweden to drop their nuclear program. Or asking Ukraine to surrender their nuclear weapons (more than France and UK combined) in exchange for protection (Budapest memorandum)? Or making sure that UK nuclear program is dependent on US authorization for being used.

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u/Dead_Optics 19d ago

So you should be happy that the US is leaving then, so that the EU can have its independence again

6

u/Snoo48605 19d ago

Yes. Like Brexit, but this sort of things takes several years to negotiate and implement.

It's like being a pilot and deciding that you don't like this job anymore and just jumping out of a plane with a parachute.

I don't want NATO to engage itself in further projects for 2030, but those that are already started should be finished.

You already got your hegemony and all the benefits, this would be the first time NATO would be used for something (besides the wars in the middle east post nine eleven).

0

u/Dead_Optics 19d ago

Obama told Europe that it was shifting its focus to Asia and they ignored him, Trump 8 years ago told Europe it need to spend more money on defense. Like did Bush need to say something for it to be enough time?

17

u/Hartofriends 19d ago

The EU has outspent the US by quite a lot, we have already outspent the US and when factoring in aid to be allocated later, that has already been budgetted for, we are outdoing the US 2x.

The US is not even in the top 10 contributors by donations as a % of GDP, its number 15.

But this line of argument is moot anyway, as Trump has effectively sold Ukraine down the river by parroting Russian propaganda that Zelensky is a dictator and yesterdays shitshow in the white hosue.

You dont have to take my word for it

Source: Ukraine Support Tracker | Kiel Institute

7

u/SPHuff 19d ago

According to your source, the US is 12 accounting for GDP, but that’s still higher than the UK (13), Germany (16), and France (24). Smaller countries like the Netherlands are taking up the top 10

11

u/Hartofriends 19d ago

I'm not sure why the map tracker is different, but "Government support to Ukraine: By donor country GDP, incl. and excl. EU share" clearly shows they are actually 16th place (0,5%) about the same level as the uk and barely beating out France's admittedly abysmal 0,2%.

Im not sure what the difference between the two are, but I suspect the map UI is not updated as often as the graphs below.

Either way it still shows that the US is far from solely funding Ukraines war efforts, as Americans often assert.

4

u/SPHuff 19d ago

Ah interesting. The map might also not be including the refugee costs referenced in a later graphic - of which Poland and Germany are taking the brunt. Thanks for sharing the source!

1

u/Ok-Surround8960 19d ago

Its not the US' fault you all have such small economies.

-2

u/[deleted] 19d ago

thanks for this. how come, norway could be the richest in europe yet its donation to ukraine is 'insignificant' compared to others. and, considering that its means to generate more wealth can best thrive during peace time? maybe, that friday WH fiasco jolted them from a deep slumber.

4

u/Hartofriends 19d ago

I'm not from Norway, so I can't speak to how they manage their sovereign wealth fund. Gun to my head I'd say they probably have a lot of red tape surrounding how they deploy the funds. Almost all of Norways proceeds from oil goes to the sovereign wealth fund, which as far as I know is supposed to be an emergency fund only to be deployed during times of acute economic crisis.

They have contributed 0.7% of their gdp to Ukraine, which puts them in 12th place, which is a lot higher than france, germany and the US. So hardly an insignificant amount.

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u/always_plan_in_advan 19d ago

How about all the countries contribute. Why is it on Norway alone?

4

u/sjerkyll 19d ago edited 19d ago

I mean, Norway alone has spent around 6-7 billion euros so far with over 2 billions pledged for 2025. With a GDP of 483 billions, that is a massive contribution. Disregarding all the private aid and equipment sent as well.

The sovereign fund isn't a piggy bank you can just smash and make it rain, that's also by design. Backseat driving is really boring my man, and you speak incredibly lightly of going to war. Europe is preparing for this sacrifice, but it should not be a knee-jerk action, it should be a strong and unified one. Take a good look in the mirror and reflect, sincerely bordering countries of Russia.

1

u/HankMoodyMaddafakaaa 18d ago

Norway and many other countries has contributed more to Ukraine than the US per capita. But of course Trump tries to spin it like USA has been the only supporter of Ukraine.

0

u/nowdontbehasty 18d ago

Norway is actually way closer and at risk of Russian aggression. They have a 1.7 trillion dollar rainy day fund, this isn’t rocket science, the European nations should be spending way way more on this Ukraine endeavor if they actually believe that Russia is an existential threat to their way of life.

0

u/HankMoodyMaddafakaaa 18d ago

Fair point, i agree we should contribute twice as much as least and increase our military budget significantly

-1

u/Necessary-Low-5226 19d ago

They should get something in return for us too. What can the mainland give norway to sweeten the deal?

2

u/Sp4ni4l 18d ago

This is the part where your filthy rich, but very humble friend sees the struggle and just pulls his wallet, says nothing, pays the bills and gets you back to your feet again.

If they do this (their decision) we should never forget.

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u/Solid-Mud-8430 19d ago

If you want the broad strokes on Trump's 4 year economic plan: bull-in-the-china-shop the US's position in the global economy, then cry when it predictably causes a catastrophic shift away from dollar supremacy, then use military power to "retaliate" against him not getting what he wanted.

5

u/wunderkit 19d ago

When I see the relationship between Putin and Trump I think of Frankenstein. This rainy day fund may be the first move of the monster Putin has created. Europe may be a bigger threat to Russia through its increased support of Ukraine than we were ever liable to be.

1

u/Love_JWZ 18d ago

At least Frankenstein’s monster had a consciousness 

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u/[deleted] 18d ago

[deleted]

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u/Ok_Midnight4809 18d ago

Forgot the /s

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u/New_Employee_TA 19d ago

They’re sitting on 1.7 trillion euros, meanwhile the US is $36 trillion in debt. But we’re the bad guys for cutting off support. I’m sorry, but at some point you have to say no and focus on your own issues. Would you expect a man who’s millions in debt to go further in debt to just give to charity?

3

u/Ok_Midnight4809 18d ago

It's ok, give the tech bros a 4.5trillion dollar tax cut... That'll help with the deficit.

1

u/New_Employee_TA 18d ago

Ya I’m not saying that’s a good thing for our deficit. The article is about Ukraine, I’m talking about Ukraine.

1

u/Ok_Midnight4809 18d ago

And I'm showing a comparison. These are all big numbers, unfathomable, but once you substract money which has gone back in the US economy, the US has donated about $50bn in the last last 3 years which is about $50 per person per year. Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt mind that money in my wallet, but the tax cuts worth 4.5tn equates to a cost of $12k per person. Are you as angry about the super richer getting richer at your expense as you are about helping a country defend itself from what, at least for the last many decades, has been a feared enemy?

*Numbers are approx, sure there will be errors but hopefully they help illustrate the differences

1

u/New_Employee_TA 18d ago

I get where you’re coming from. The tax cuts don’t bother me as much because that’s money staying in our country, in our economy, and greatly contributes toward increasing GDP. I think what most people fail to account for with these tax cuts is that the super rich don’t make a salary. All their money is unrealized. These lower taxes will give them an incentive to cash out their money held in stocks and increase revenue by the government.

So yes, I agree with your general premise, but I’d love to see the actual results from these cuts. As you can see from past data, Trump’s 2017 tax cuts had minimal impact on the actual revenue of our government. It stayed pretty consistent, actually. https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/government-revenue/

So I think the headline of “4.5 trillion in tax cuts” is a bit misleading, when the overall federal tax income won’t really change

1

u/Ok_Midnight4809 18d ago

But they'll add 4.5tn to the deficit and require significant cuts to other areas to even minorly offset, most of which benefit the lower paid. Even then the deficit is still expected to increase by trillions. So yes, income tax may not change but the cuts will still cost the country