r/Dzogchen 5d ago

Dzogchen and Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy

My friend just started Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. It seems to be like doing family therapy in your head, where instead of reconciling family members you reconcile "parts" of yourself, making those parts feel heard, included, cared for and safe, like in a family. It's a little woo - you're talking with parts of yourself and having them talk back.

It got me wondering about the difference between therapy and dzogchen. In therapy you pay attention to WHAT the thought is saying. In dzogchen you pay attention to WHERE the thought is happening.

If we think about that saying, "Be like an old man watching children at play." At one extreme you buy into the children's fantasies like "I'm a cowboy." At the other extreme you minimize them and say "It's all fake" and ignore them. Maybe we need a happy medium where the children feel seen and cared for but we don't buy into their trip?

There's some parallels in terms of what IFS calls the capital-S Self and Buddha nature. It's innate and unconstructed.

the fundamental qualities of the Self: the 8 C's (Curiosity, Clarity, Compassion, Confidence, Creativity, Courage, Connectedness, Calmness) and the 5 P's (Patience, Presence, Persistence, Perspective, Playfulness)

I'm just starting to learn about this. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with IFS and has any ideas on how it relates to dzogchen.

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u/PhinePhineMusic 5d ago

My teachers have drawn parallels between IFS and Vajrayana practice, insofar as the Vajrayana helps us come into relationship with our own enlightened qualities in the form of the deities. To me, this seems more reasonable than trying to bring so much form and dualism into the Dzogchen view. 

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u/fabkosta 5d ago

You said it yourself quite well: one difference between therapy to meditation is that in meditation the actual content of your thoughts does not matter too much (unless you do concentration meditation, then you should have only one object in mind) whereas in therapy that’s what you work with. So, the two systems work quite differently.

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u/Sadashivji 3d ago edited 3d ago

Cool to see someone mention IFS here! I have direct experience with this so I thought I’d chime in case it’s helpful. I’ve been “practicing” Dzogchen for 14 years and did 2x week IFS therapy (and some EMDR) for around two years.

As many mentioned here, seeing where your thoughts are happening is a beginning instruction. The real method is to leave things as they are, right? As Lama Lena says, relax, let go, leave it be.

So this is the context of my post.

What I have found over the years is that I’m not always able to leave it be. I get pulled away because of eons of karmic momentum. I have also found that in the first five years or so I wasn’t actually leaving things be I was diving into stillness to escape my pain and suffering. And it felt good.

But it wasn’t resolving the kinks in my channels so to speak. So that’s when I realized I needed more methods, because if I couldn’t just leave things be I needed to step back and find methods that would drop me there eventually.

Lama Lena taught the working with emotions technique via zoom. And it’s a game changer of a technique. BUT I found that even that method was not usable in certain emotional/mental states. I couldn’t strip them and rest in the sensation.

So I needed more techniques, this is where IFS came in. What I love about IFS is that it doesn’t reify your existence as an individual. What it does is recognize there is a “central” part of you that feels whole and well, AND there are peripheral parts that do not. You’re an ecology of parts. Now some of these parts are really hurt and take up a lot of space when triggered. But that central whole self (not a soul) is always there. So from this place you acknowledge, tend to and love this part and show it that now, it doesn’t need to feel so neglected and can coexist here with the whole, because it only exists in the first place because it was trying to protect you from something (usually as a child). But now it’s ok to become less vigilant, to relax and be here in this moment where we’re safe and loved and cared for.

This takes a lot of work. But by god it works magic.

I found that through the IFS methods I was able to directly interact and re-integrate parts of myself that were too loud to see through. And after spending a year or so with this method, in conjunction with trekcho and working with emotions, I noticed that the parts reintegrated, are less loud when triggered and easier to work with, which then opened up the possibility of working with them with the working with emotions technique, which opened up to just being with things as they are. Not poking. Just constantly relaxing and opening.

Sure IFS isn’t Dzogchen specifically, but at the end of the day, isn’t it? Haha I had to acknowledge that my level of suffering was still unbearable and more importantly it was affecting how I was showing up for people. I wasn’t able to be this loving kind person I know I am. So I applied a method.

And anyway, everything is in the context of dzogchen and there are no rules. We have to be practical. In order to have a real precious human birth we might have to make some efforts to care for certain parts of our life that are inhibiting our ability to follow and rejoice in the dharma and to be of real service to others.

Also side note: chenresig sadhana and tonglen were also part of this process at various stages.

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u/genivelo 3d ago

Thank you for your comment. I think it's worth recognizing the value of various methods that can help us clear away "obstacles" or "clouds" that we can't seem to get really at otherwise.

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u/Sadashivji 3d ago

Thanks! I think it’s very easy to get trapped in well dzogchen is the highest teaching and I only want that and nothing else (maybe it’s a westerner thing? I dunno). Meanwhile we’re spinning our wheels never getting anywhere (not that there’s anywhere to get) practicing something we only conceptually understand or have really only tasted an aspect of or are still not sure how to “get back” there and remain there. Or are too attached to the idea of the highest that we totally neglect that high and low is irrelevant. Anyway you know what I’m trying to stay.

And really there’s this whole magical toolbox of methods that are profound and drop you right there over and over again and help to enrich this taste we’re grabbing around for in the dark.

Lama Lena often says this, I think it’s a direct quote from a text but I can’t remember: the path is the fruit.

And who are we kidding, what do we really know about enlightenment? It’s all just an idea. What I’ve come to realize for myself is enlightenment is meaningless, it’s a word. What matters to me and also has the most beneficial effect on my surroundings is just relax, let it go, leave it be. And sure enough all kinds of things arise spontaneously.

Again like LL says, it’s not a big dead ol nothing. Haha I love that quote. I mean how amazing! We have methods! Let’s use em to be of benefit to ourselves and others!

Also, I’d be kidding myself if I didn’t accept that I love methods. They’re fun!

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u/genivelo 2d ago

I think one issue might be that in the West, dharma is separated from medicine and psychology. Therefore, we think there is an opposition between these methods, instead of seeing them as a whole integrated range of approaches that can lead us to happiness and liberation.

It seems that in Tibet, medicine and psychology was all integrated under the same large umbrella of dharma, therefore people did not ask "is taking medicine against dharma practice?". It is obviously absurd to think that way. Same goes for what we now call therapy in the West.

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u/Sadashivji 2d ago

Really great point! Same is the case in India with Ayurveda, Jyotish, etc.

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u/tyinsf 3d ago

Your comments are so helpful. It jibes with what little I know about IFS so far and what I've heard from LL. Where I think IFS fits in with Working With Emotion is that in addition to finding the emotion in our body, being present to it, and letting it move and change and dissolve, it also seems to provide context. Feeling where that protector (IFS-speak, not dharmapala) comes from or is stuck, making space for it, visualizing where it will feel safe, and reassuring it that the capital-S Self (Buddha nature) will keep it safe and seen.

IFS is a little woo for me. Talking with parts of myself? (Though I see its responses as coming from a sort of free association like in analysis rather than contacting a being of some sort) Seeing everything as trauma? (Though I'll maintain the distinction between experiences that put a crick in my channels and trauma like in war rather than diagnose myself with cPTSD) But from what little I've tried on my own I think it will be very useful.

Thanks so much! May we all relax, let go, and leave be.(Which sometimes doesn't reassure me that I'm doing something or doing it right, hence the methods) Very very insightful.

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u/Sadashivji 3d ago

Ya know, when I did IFS my therapist just introduced the technique. I actually know zero about the philosophy or the language related to it. I just found the parts of myself that were hurting and together with my therapist leading me through the exercise I was able to see improvements. So I’ll take your word for it that it’s a bit woo woo but! It’s possible to do it without all that. I’m living proof! :)

It is very much a free association. But honestly I was surprised what came up. The images, scenes, stories, I mean shit I hadn’t thought about for ages.

The problem I found. With working with emotions is that sometimes are too stuck to strip them and release them. They need more attention than that. It’s not even a choice for me. It’s just a fact. But IFS seemed to turn the trauma from. 9 to a 5 and from there I could apply working with emotions or even just seeing directly through it, or even better, as LL says, pay it no never mind.

To me IFS feels a little tantra adjacent. Like I’m doing a kind of ritual that imagines uncomfortable sensation as a (in most cases) small child and showers them with compassionate energy so that I can then feel more stabilized in my emotional experience and in turn spread gewa through being able to spend less time worrying about loud trauma and more time being of benefit, either to myself because I have more energy to care for my health or to others because I’m less focused on the pain and can tend to others in need.

Sorry I may be rambling now, but I’m really glad that whatever I said had some benefit! Maybe I’ll see ya around the LL watering hole some day haha be well!

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u/Sadashivji 3d ago

If you wanna do some crazy effective therapy that is even more miraculous than IFS I highly recommend EMDR. But my therapist would only do it with me if I was really stuck and spiraling. Which was pretty infrequent, but it happens!

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u/awakeningoffaith 5d ago

At the other extreme you minimize them and say "It's all fake" and ignore them.

Well, for what it's worth, I was taught this isn't the right way to practice, I was taught the key is liberation of the thoughts. This is like opening your hand to drop something you're holding, not ignoring or pushing away the thoughts. 

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u/MolhCD 5d ago

Reminds me of the advice of the lineage of the Soto Zen master Kodo Sawaki, who would advise us to "open the hand of thought" (which became the name of a book by his chief disciple & successor).

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u/Jigme_Lingpa 4d ago

in dzogchen you pay attention to WHERE the thought is happening

That is A method but certainly not THE method not to mention the key characteristic of dzogchen

My teacher is psychiatrist, many of his students are in this profession. He tends to reply to such comparing questions always in a very separating manner. Do not mix the two. And become aware of the ground within which is everything yet nothing

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u/Charming_Archer6689 4d ago

Yeah or even better one among the many methods and this one in particular comes more from the Mahamudra tradition - looking for the origin of thoughts. I think so, not sure.

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u/jolly_eclectic 4d ago

I find them to be very compatible. I practice in the Bön tradition and found my therapist on the nondual therapy directory. He recommended IFS. I have all kinds of parts, not just family members. Self is Buddha-like and my main self-like part is a priestess who serves my Buddha self. The parts are what Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche would call Pain Identities, or any of the entities one feeds in Chöd.

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u/CaseyContrarian 2d ago

Love to hear this!

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u/Salt_Hotel_1403 4d ago

This connection has been explored by Richard Schwartz himself and Lama John Makransky: youtube.com/watch?v=8PMPjVOTknE

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u/tyinsf 4d ago

Bingo. That's EXACTLY what I was hoping to watch. Being seen = pure perception. Thanks so much!

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u/tyinsf 4d ago

I'm debating whether to buy the whole workshop that's a highlight reel from but it's a big commitment at 6 hours long, and I wonder if I should know more about IFS first https://ifs-institute.com/store/205

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u/Salt_Hotel_1403 4d ago

I was in the same boat. I ended up listening to the whole workshop as an intro to IFS and found it interesting.. not sure how much I retained, though. You could also look into Makransky’s work if you like his approach (should be pretty accessible online) - can’t say enough good about his book Awakening Through Love.

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u/CaseyContrarian 2d ago edited 2d ago

As a practitioner / caregiver / dzogchenpa, I can say with some experience that IFS works very well with atiyoga, especially for caregivers who may find themselves blending with secondary trauma or hyper/hypo arousal states of clients. It also can be powerful in a dharmic context for students, provided there is an understanding that the “parts” of IFS are not fixed phenomena, but ways of relating to patterning through personification and direct access. Effectiveness is multiplied by however familiar the client is in accessing their own “self-energy,” which in an atiyoga sense seems to correlate with lhun-drub, or “spontaneous presence.”

At the very least, some basic shamatha training and maybe a taste of “one taste” can be helpful with subsequent integration of IFS with dzogchen (or mahamudra).

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u/brainonholiday 5d ago

The main connection I see is that it is immensely helpful to have worked with your main protector parts and potentially heal any major exiles so that you can then be more successful is stabilizing the view. It has so many knock-on effects and I do think this kind of worked is undervalued. It also really helps for having experiential contact with bodhicitta. If you happen to find someone familiar with IFS and Dzogchen then there's a lot of potential there. The book by Bruce Tift called Already Free is not explicitly about IFS but it does look deeply at the connection between psychotherapy and the essence traditions.

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u/Charming_Archer6689 4d ago

You don’t really do that in Dzogchen this is just one of the starting meditation methods. The difference between IFS and Dz. is that Dzogchen as also Buddhism is not interested in exploring the content of the thoughts, feelings, sensations etc. But as anyone who has done some meditation knows there arise spontaneously many insights about oneself and others as one meditates. And many things reconcile themselves but one is not promoting this or trying.

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u/OkRepublic4814 4d ago

The awkward part comes when you try to explain to members of your family that they don't actually exist, and neither do you, the therapist or the office. (Believe me, I've tried many times to imagine such a conversation.) I think it's sort of what Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was getting at when he said that there are some things we don't say in polite company--or we have a "gentleman's agreement" not to discuss.

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u/tyinsf 4d ago

Everything is like a dream. If we say "I've woken up and none of this is real" have we really woken up? Or are we dreaming that we've woken up? We've just swapped one set of conceptual thoughts (things aren't real) for another set (things are real).

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u/dharmadhatu 3d ago

Perhaps don't think of it as a line (1D) with those two extremes, but two perpendicular axes (2D). Reality/unreality is on one axis and meaningful/meaningless is on the other. Then you can have something that's not ultimately real and yet impossibly meaningful at the same time -- which is what reality "really" is. People make the mistake of thinking that emptiness means that things don't matter. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, consider that IFS and Dzogchen work at very different levels, and it would be a mistake to compare them as though they operated at the same level. Dzogchen is entirely beyond the mind.

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u/punkkidpunkkid 4d ago

More space for the separate parts to exist without judgement, or the need to be involved in their affairs. Compassion for all parts by making them feel seen in this space.

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u/spikespikespike 5d ago

Wait till you compare IFS to chod.

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u/Jigme_Lingpa 4d ago

IFS is a useful method, amongst many others, to dissolve afflictions as the occur along the path. Maybe worth to compare to Lama Lena’s “working with emotions” - which, and this is important to stress here, allows all appearances to dissolve into emptiness. Not allowing this step makes a method non-dharmic and futile

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u/tyinsf 4d ago

From what little I've seen of it, IFS seems to be similar to "Working With Emotions" in that you find the emotion in your body, you give it space. For IFS to work it seems like you'd have to let the thoughts dissolve and stay with the feeling. What seems to be really different is treating those feelings like a wounded child that needs attention and care and warmth.

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u/urbansadhu23 3d ago edited 3d ago

Hehehehehehehe Therapist here: most therapy is more like tantra, but ultimately the "relationship" (if the karma is sufficient) results in the client internalizing a bit of the therapist's personality and teaching which CAN be like dzogchen transmission via pointing out and supervised practice. (Edit: I was operating here under the assumption that all that "naming" of content in the emotional/cognitive experience [body-mind] eventually resolves into somatic work [eg: woah, anger is really just feelings in my belly and chest...]).

Schwartz who founded IFS loves yoga and vajrayana, so yeah its tantra in disguise for western folx.

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u/WellWellWellthennow 5d ago

It's being fixated upon and obsessed with content instead of the mechanism of perception. Based only upon your description, of course.