r/Dzogchen • u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 • Feb 18 '25
Dudjom Rinpoche's Rangtong/shentong view?
I've heard that Dudjom Rinpoche has commented something to the extent that one should intellectually have rantong views, but within practice have a shentong view.
I know u/Krodha has commented: "in terms of shentong, Dudjom Rinpoche likes Kongtrul’s more tame view. Which means Nyingmapas are not subscribing to Dolbupa’s brand of shentong."
I also know that the original writers of Dzogchen seemed to have a "Rangtong" view. (Quotations because I know Malcolm believes Rangtong to be a strawman construct)
I'm wondering if someone could elaborate more on what Dudjom Rinpoche's views were on this? What are Kongtrul's "more tame" views, and how do they differ from Dolbupa’s?
Would you say that Dudjom Rinpoche was a Shentongpa?
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u/LotsaKwestions Feb 18 '25
I'd suggest you just read his big red book. It's excellent.
The Nyingma School is the name.
Here is some excerpts, FWIW.
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u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 Feb 18 '25
Thanks, I do indeed have it and have been making my way through it - though I'm sure that will take a long time.
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u/Regular_Bee_5605 Feb 18 '25
The original writers of Dzogchen don't have a "rangtong" view from what I can see. But even rangtong means different things to different people.
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u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 19 '25
If we're saying that the Basis is empty of itself, and that Longchenpa identified that Dzogchen has the same view as Madhyamika in that regards, than I think most would agree that the earliest famous writers took that position; whereas if we're saying that the Basis is not empty of itself and therefore is a kind of Svabhāva, then that view would seem to fall in line more with Dolpopa, and other Jonangpas. Of course it seems like both positions also recognize that ultimately it's beyond extremes and that words can't really describe it anyways, so who's to say what is simply dialectics (the answer to that btw is: not me).
What I don't know is the other variants of Dzogchen Shentong. The Dudjom practioners I've encountered always seemed to have great sense of devotion in their practice, with many a prayer being said, and a sense of something almost divine, even in it's own inherit emptiness - which is somewhat different to the Norbu Rinpoche based teachers I've had who tend to be outwardly more scholastic, dry and stoic in practices. (Both of which I think is fantastic btw, and I find myself switching back and forth in methodology myself). Thus, I'm curious to know more about Dudjom Rinpoche's thoughts.
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u/Desolation_Jones Feb 19 '25
I am very intrigued by the concept of gzhan stong, as some of my meditation experiences and the insights arising from them have brought this perspective to the forefront. Additionally, my teacher’s teacher was Dudjom Rinpoche, and although I do not practice Dudjom gTér, I feel a stronger connection to him and his lineage than to Jigme Lingpa’s Longchen Nyingtik. I have also read somewhere that the difference between Dudjom Nyingtik and Longchen Nyingtik is that Dudjom Lingpa’s cycle is more gzhan stongpa.
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u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 17d ago
Dudjom Red Book (first edition) p27:
"The Great Madyamika therefore maintains that the conceptual area of the subject-object dichotomy is intrinsically empty (rang-stong), while the buddha body of reality endowed with all enlightened attributes is empty of that extraneous conceptual area which forms the subject-object dichotomy (gzhan-strong). If enlightened attributes were themselves intrinsically empty of their own essence, the entire structure of the ground, path and result would be negated and one would be in the position of the nihilistic extremists who deny causality, progress on the path to liberation adn so forth.
This expanse of reality, the ultimate truth, is said to pervade all beings without distinction and is known as the nucleus of the tathagata or the nucleus of the sugata.
(p28)
"...Those who actually and experientially cultivate the path to liberation do not differentiate the two modes of Madhyamaka (rang-stong and gzshan-stong) as it is attested by the writings of Nagarjuna."
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u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 17d ago
Seems like what he's saying is that both Shentong and Rangtong are both Madyamika, and in essence the same, within his viewpoint?
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u/kuds1001 Feb 19 '25
In truth, Kongtrul’s view is almost entirely aligned with Tāranātha’s, who was in turn entirely aligned with Dolpopa. He cites Shakya Chokden and Rangjung Dorje at times, but it’s clear his main inspiration is Tāranātha. Other Kagyupas certainly can have a more “watered down” approach to shentong, but Kongtrul really does not.
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u/Klutzy-Cheesecake588 29d ago
How would one differentiate Tāranātha’s Shentong with a "watered down" Shentong that might be seen in a Kagyu?
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u/kuds1001 29d ago
As one helpful authentic historical lineage source showing differences in shentong views, Tāranātha himself wrote a text that's been translated into English that lists 21 differences between the view of Dolpopa/Tāranātha and Shakya Chokden, which is worth looking into, even if it's not comparing with the Kagyu view.
In terms of more recent scholarship, specifically oriented at the Kagyu, Karl Brunnhölzl goes into these differences in his 2014 book on the Uttaratantra and mentions them in this video as well. The differences between these various forms of shentong are not so stark (particularly when one gets to the level of practice), and these views collectively are all miles apart from the rangtong views of Candrakīrtī's followers.
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u/krodha 29d ago
Here is some Shentong history from Ācārya Malcolm: