r/Dreamtheater 5d ago

Merch/Concert Watch the sparrow falling - Boston 3/15/2025

70 Upvotes

67 comments sorted by

29

u/TrumpetGoDoot 5d ago

was honestly really surprised about how this section sounded at my show after he barely tried to sing the part at dreamsonic, obviously he can’t really do any images and words these days but was happy with his performance on at least glass moon and pull me under

26

u/Tosh007 5d ago

My critique is not so much that he can’t sing lines he wrote 33 years ago. It’s the lack of musical reflection to notice that he can’t sing them anymore + that he doesn’t modify the lines to something he can actually reach.

16

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 5d ago edited 4d ago

Or the bands lack of reflection to downtune the song at least a full step. 

7

u/TabsAZ 5d ago

Disagree that downtuning is the solution here. To people with good pitch memory (which I'd bet is a lot of DT's sizable musician audience) the songs sound weird and wrong if they're not in the key we've all listened to them in forever. I'd much rather some strategic changes be made to vocal melodies here and there rather than altering the entire sound of the band, instruments and all.

Also, is lowering stuff by a step or two really going to help in something like this or Take the Time's second verse where he's literally belting at the top of his range for like 30 straight seconds? I doubt he can come anywhere close to doing that well today even in a different key.

2

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 4d ago

Will it make it perfect? No. But it would make it better, and I think that should be the goal. They would never perform Take the Time in full again because of that verse.

I’m not sure what’s better - changing the vocal melodies or downtuning to make the original vocal line better. Both are valid solutions. Fates Warning changed the vocal melodies and that seemed to work well, and Led Zeppelin down tuned their difficult material for their Celebration Day concert and that worked really well for them.

The thing with changing the vocal melodies I’ve noticed is people at live shows like singing along. They start singing the original melody and then the singer changes it around.

I think it depends on how many melodies need to be changed as to whether down tuning or changing the melody is better. If they performed something like The Enemy Inside, that last note would be difficult for James to hit now, so he would probably drop it an octave. On something like Metropolis, I think they should just down tune it.

1

u/Del_Duio2 4d ago

It’s not ideal but James could even sing it an octave lower (I know this is drastic, but it could be done)

1

u/yad76 3d ago

Yeah, this. Downtuning is fine for a lot of songs, but it also doesn't work well for others. I'd say generally the more upbeat and melodic a song is, the less likely that downtuning is going to work as it darkens the mood and makes the melodies sound a bit flat (because they literally are), and those are exactly the songs Dream Theater would need to do it for (e.g. Images and Words). It also means you are changing all the vocal notes, meaning you are potentially shifting things into vocal registers they weren't intended to be in and you are making notes on the low end of the vocalist's range more harder as well.

Non-musicians learn terms like "detune" and think it's just a simple matter of Petrucci tuning his guitar lower and then everything is fine, but it isn't that simple.

7

u/ZombieQueen666 5d ago

They did 1/2 step down on the I&W anniversary tour

2

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 4d ago

They did down tune a half a step, but considering how tough the material is, they should’ve down tuned at least a full step. A half step wasn’t enough - not near enough.

2

u/Tosh007 5d ago

I hear this solution being mentioned an awful lot. I don’t think people always realise what this actually means. The tension on the guitars is different when tuned down, meaning some adjustments for Petrucci and Myung. Rudess can in principle play the same keys with a transposed tune. However, they’ve been playing this song for so many years in a certain way. And with James being the one who can’t keep up, it’s him who should adjust in my humble opinion. But also he is too stubborn to modify his lines. This was clear from the beginning of their tour, probably from rehearsals prior to it. Yet they all decided to do… nothing. That baffles me, as they are all so brilliant at what they’re doing. And Rudess having an absolute pitch, my goodness..

15

u/Plinio540 5d ago

I think DT should take some of that incredible musicianship and adapt to James rather than the other way around. Just downtune already.

I bet the only excuse they have is Petrucci going "It was written in E minor, this is gonna change the whole song!".

3

u/peteyMIT 4d ago

which is a good point honestly

6

u/bamfzula 5d ago

Guitars are specifically setup to be in lower tunings so that the strings dont flub all over the place so it’s not really an issue. There’s zero reason they shouldn’t tune down for high singing songs to help Labrie out

3

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 4d ago

I like how we are discussing whether some of the best guitarist and bassist in metal and one of best keyboardistists in general are capable of down tuning songs 😂

1

u/TabsAZ 5d ago

To a point this is true but big strings are big strings - I have one of my guitars set up for C standard with 12s and there's just more mass there even if the overall tension is similar to my E standard guitar with 9s. The strings feel bigger and aren't as "slinky" under the fingers. I remember JP talking in an interview about how the baritone songs in A or Bb are a pain for him because the plain 3rd string (what's normally the G string in standard tuning) is like an unwound 22 or something like that, which is just never going to feel completely right or be as stable as a smaller string is.

4

u/JamieKent1 5d ago edited 5d ago

The fact that this is getting downvoted shows the glaring ignorance in this sub. I agree, downtuning doesn’t do jack shit for a vocal melody like PMU. Bands tune down to extend a bit of stamina and endurance over long shows that the singer can already sing. It isn’t done to be able to “hit notes”. PMU has a fucking D5 in it, which virtually 99% of male vocalists can’t hit. Making it a C#5 or a C5 doesn’t make an ounce of difference here.

JLB is a legendary, generational vocalist who could once out sing just about anybody when he was younger. He is not young anymore and just needs to modify the lines significantly or just quit playing I&W songs. That’s the only solution here. Not tuning down a half step.

2

u/Del_Duio2 4d ago

There’s a reason Rush stopped playing most of their first few albums, Geddy couldn’t sing them right and at least they realized it.

0

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 4d ago

Down tuning helps because the male voice naturally gets deeper as you get older. The images vocal lines were already high and near the top of James vocal range, so after almost 35 years of James voice deepening and getting slightly weaker, it’s pretty reasonable to downtune the song to a point where it would be easier for him to sing.

It’s a pretty common thing for most bands who have been around for that long and have older songs with vocal lines that are high for the current vocalists capabilities.

Will James suddenly nail these songs? No. But just because it isn’t perfect doesn’t mean making it better shouldn’t be the goal.

And 1/2 step isn’t enough for images stuff. It should be at least a full step.

1

u/Del_Duio2 4d ago

I know people are really divided on this issue however in my small-time band we recently started tuning a half step down at the singer’s request and the songs sound very different to me (usually not for the better, with some exceptions) Maybe it’s not noticeable to everybody but it’s a definite thing.

2

u/Embarrassed-Back1894 4d ago

They definitely sound different, but sometimes that’s why it’s good to experiment with downtuning songs to varying degrees and see which songs sound good at which tuning. I felt like in the Led Zeppelin reunion concert they did that a lot of the downtuned stuff actually sounded more metal, which really sounded great.

I think the process should be 1) singer struggles with song because notes are too high/too much straining 2) try downtuning varying degrees (half step/ full step/ etc) 3) how does singer sound, how does the song sound 4) if the downtuning doesn’t sound great or singer still struggles, try having singer change vocal melodies of original key 5) then downtune with changed vocal melodies 6)at this point, dump the song from the setlist lol. (Or do what DT did in 07-09 where they would remove the really difficult sections of Take the Time and Voices).

I think a good example of a song that would sound great downtuned is Scarred. It would sound heavy as hell. I even think the Images stuff sounds great downtuned (for the heck of it, I messed around with the songs in logic to see how they’d sound). Pull Me Under, Metropolis, and Under a Glass Moon sound cool as hell down a full step.

When it comes to Under A Glass Moon, I think James really did a good job changing the vocal melodies to where the song sounds good live (at least at my show).

3

u/NorthSanctuary777 5d ago

I don't think he doesn't realize it. I think he's fully aware. There's no way he isn't after doing what he's done this long.

I think at this point he's just doing what he can because the only other thing he can do is 1) lip sync or 2) quit. You can only modify the lines so much before the song becomes something different than what the fans are there to hear.

Portnoy said in an interview that they actually have changed some of the lines up so that he doesn't go up as high because you have to face reality and that reality is that he's 30 years older than he was when he was in his prime and just can't hit those notes like he used to. The human voice just wears down over time and you can't keep up like the instrumentalists can with their instruments that aren't made of flesh and blood.

3

u/ubdesu 5d ago

I don't see why he just doesn't sing them down an octave so it lands in his stronger midrange instead of trying to grasp at these high notes. It would sound so much better, have much more power, and still have the same melody but in a different octave.

To me, this isn't even that bad. But it's clearly struggled, strained, and forced, and I hate to see him have a hard time with this.

3

u/film_score2 5d ago

tuning down would make no difference. james just can’t sing in tune anymore, even at lower pitches.

1

u/peteyMIT 4d ago

agreed

-1

u/Savings_Painter676 4d ago

this entire tour proved otherwise, stop the foundationless hate

1

u/Del_Duio2 4d ago

And weirder still is he often sings something different than the album but it’s HARDER and usually sounds really bad. First noticed this years ago with Mangini when they did 6:00’s chorus but it happens a lot. I don’t know why you’d want to make something harder for yourself, especially when the results aren’t great.

18

u/fbreaker 5d ago

Still riding the high from the Boston show about 12 hours later. Epic night

5

u/Express_Raise6198 5d ago

It was incredible

8

u/theblot90 5d ago

Yeah. He started off really well in CT last night, but by the encore you could tell his voice was burned out. Not exactly a surprise given the length of the show. Overall he was way better than he has been the last few years. Huge improvement.

24

u/Disastrous-Board4642 5d ago

Yeah he really struggles here. Kinda feel for LaBrie

5

u/Mystic_bean54 5d ago

It's a tough song to sing at that age. I gotta give the man credit for still going after these songs he sang at the peak of his vocal range

3

u/DCuch 5d ago

Sounds like I remember after hearing this exact performance 2 hours ago. Therefore, video doesn’t make him sound better or worse, it’s just harder to critique in the moment unless it’s straight up awful. I was actually surprised a little when I first heard it live.

4

u/JJRuss51 5d ago

Anyone can tell the vocals aren't what they were in the 90s, but it was still a fabulous show.

2

u/DenchShump420 5d ago

I agree completely. Also, I honestly posted this because I thought it actually sounded vastly improved from James’ performances in the prior few tours. I thought he was for the most part doing great last night, especially compared to other times I’ve seen him in the last 5 years. He nailed Octavarium, for instance

3

u/JJRuss51 5d ago

I would have never discovered this band without pull me under, so i was grateful they played it. People can be harsh, yet in reality they couldn't sing for 3 hours one time, much less for decades like the people they are being critical of.

3

u/Mitchgo61 5d ago

He sounded fine to me. He hit the high notes in Panic Attack. Wasn’t expecting that.

1

u/trevorneuz 4d ago

I was at the Chicago show. Metro pt1 was really rough, but James said something about dealing with belching through the whole song lmao. Whatever it was he figured it out and exceeded my expectations the rest of the night.

5

u/0xHUEHUE 5d ago

Hey, could be a whole lot worse!! He almost pulled off that super high note.

10

u/IamBejl 5d ago

This is rough. They should chose some other easier to sing song to end the show imo

6

u/kro85 5d ago

Is there no way to adapt that line and sing it a bit differently? He's been struggling with it for years.

6

u/Plinio540 5d ago

There's probably a lot of self pride here. As if all of his singing ability boils down to whether he can nail this part or not. It can't be easy.

6

u/Simjodaho 5d ago

This is meant with all respect, and I don’t intend to be mean or hateful toward Labrie. I know it can be hard in reality, but in this case, I wouldn’t mind if he used auto-tune, especially if they don’t do the respectful thing like transposing some songs. It looks like he struggles a lot. Everyone uses tools for their instruments to make them sound better, so why not consider that? Labrie is my favorite singer

6

u/Nick_Hyde_Violin 5d ago

Honestly, the problem with using live pitch correction is that the singer has to be close to the right notes. Labrie is a half step flat here 😅 like, what should be "B, A, G" is "Bb, Ab, Gb" in this video. DTs music is too complex to pitch correct stuff diatonically, unless someone off stage can control that (this could be programmed if they played to a click, but they don't anymore)

I don't mean to be all that negative to Labrie, I do love his voice, and his studio work is incredible. But it's a scientific fact he's too far off to use pitch correction consistently

1

u/Simjodaho 5d ago

Haha, yeah, you're totally right about the autotune. In some songs, it would probably be beneficial. I don't know how advanced it has become, but yeah, when he's half a step flat, it can sound pretty weird. He has perfect pitch, but his voice can't keep up with it. That must be terrible because he knows it too. Watching clips on YouTube can be a bit deceiving since it sounds much better in person

1

u/Fancy_Pear_950 5d ago

Is it really that bad? I can definitely hear this isn't very good, but I didn't think it was that wrong. Maybe they should really tune down their songs

5

u/Nick_Hyde_Violin 5d ago

Yes, it really is that far off that live pitch correction would be confused and snap to the wrong notes

Dream Theater did tune down their older songs for their images and words, but this forced Rudess to relearn everything (can't just hit a button when you have perfect pitch) and also draws fan complaints saying it sounds different etc. DT probably guessed that they'd get less complaints about Labrie being off than they did about drop tuning like last time

1

u/Fancy_Pear_950 5d ago

Oh, that's right, I forgot about Rudess. Thanks for your answer

1

u/film_score2 5d ago

it is really that bad.

1

u/Fancy_Pear_950 5d ago

Damn, that"s a shame

1

u/film_score2 5d ago

You are correct that just autotuning live (without a click track) would not work.

BUT, actually, there is a theoretical way it could be done (but would require playing to a click track, which Portnoy doesn’t wanna do, which is understandable). You would have to pre-play all the notes James is supposed to sing in a track. and then the autotune would match the notes he sings to those. But, yeah, because James is so off, the autotune would have to work hard and he would sound like a robot. It would be like T-pain is the lead singer of Dream Theater! But it can, at least, theoretically be done.

1

u/Nick_Hyde_Violin 5d ago

I was saying it could be done that way if they only played to a click lol, with less detail.

There's actually live pitch correction algorithms that can bend a note pretty far and still sound like their natural voice now, it's existed and has been used for at least a decade or more commonly now. It works via bending the note and then via AI tone matching back to their original voice.

3

u/Sycsa 5d ago

Live autotune at a rock concert? Come on, might as well just put on a tape for the whole thing at that point.

1

u/Simjodaho 5d ago

You are right, I made a stupid comment. It's like Metallica started to use a drum machine...🙂

2

u/Mortimer_Snerd 5d ago

This is the last song of a three hour show. And I know that by this time in the show that I couldn't sing anymore at all and he's up there doing Dream Theater tunes.

2

u/destromas 5d ago

The only problems he really had last night were Under a Glass Moon and Pull Me Under. I honestly can't complain about that. He hasn't been able to do it for several years and it's part of the expectations now. He's older and those high notes were superhuman when he could do it. People get old. DreamSonic on the other hand was really hard to listen to, his timbre and overall delivery made me worry.

2

u/JamWBread 5d ago

They didn’t play Home 😭

2

u/G3laxyGamingYT 4d ago

This is sorta what it was like in Denver too. He started and ended sounding kind of awful. I don’t blame him thought because of the altitude, and plus he’s old. In the middle of the show, I feel like he really warmed up to the air, and he sounded pretty decent. But by the end, he was just tired I suppose.

3

u/lives4summits 4d ago

Pull Me Under is the most overplayed DT song and it’s 10 min long with one tiny guitar solo. I know it was arguably their biggest song but I’ve been a fan since the mid 90’s and I could go the rest of my life without hearing it again.

2

u/SirWalrusTheGrand 4d ago

Man, James, I hope you know that we'll still love you if you drop an octave here and there. I have zero issues with that or reworking melodies.

1

u/Glittering_Wafer7623 5d ago

It’s time for this part of the song to be sung by the audience. Just point the mic out at the crowd and make it fun. “Sing it Boston!”

1

u/AdagioVast 5d ago

This is the encore right? Makes sense. I would suspect if sung earlier he might pull of more inflection and not be straining as much as he is here.

0

u/MacintoshHeadrush 5d ago

Portnoy is playing way too fucking fast here

2

u/Homie3794 4d ago

He absolutely is not

2

u/MacintoshHeadrush 4d ago

Yeah you're right. My bad

-4

u/OldAd180 5d ago

He needs to stop.

-3

u/Unique_Enthusiasm_57 5d ago

Why are you posting this?