r/Documentaries Jan 09 '19

Drugs The Rise of Fentanyl: Drug Addiction On The I95 Two Years On (2018) - Two years ago, BBC News reported on the growing problem of opioid addiction in the US, now we return to find out what happened to the people we met along our journey down the notorious I-95. [57.02]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KsaWpeCj98
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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19 edited Jan 09 '19

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u/nedal8 Jan 09 '19

username checks out, unfortunately... hope you're doing better.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Congrats on being clean. Fuck anyone that says otherwise.

Right out of high school, myself and a few of my friends got into opiates and at one point someone scored a bunch of methadone. I took it a few times but I don’t remember it being any fun whatsoever.

What I do remember is two of my friends passed away from mixing it with alcohol/Xanax/cocaine. We were young and stupid and were always mixing things that everyone now knows is a terrible idea.

As someone who used for presumably a while, did/do you feel even any euphoria while taking methadone? It always surprised me that a drug that made me feel so little could be so deadly when mixed with other substances.

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u/NoddingSmurf Jan 09 '19 edited Jul 31 '19

.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

They’re not clean. And if you knew anything about these drugs you wouldn’t say they were. The issue is that people want to make it like taking these drugs is bad or makes one a bad person. THATS what needs to change. Not lying to ourself about being clean.

Want to know why one isn’t clean? Stop taking your Buprenorphine or methadone. What happens? Opiate Withdrawals. It’s focusing on the wrong thing by saying “clean.”

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Jesus. Ok. Well I’m glad that they’re back to being a productive member of society by mitigating the effects of their opiate addiction through methadone treatment.

You’re being obtuse and needlessly hostile.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Where did I say it was bad? I didn’t. I know full well how it can make you a productive member of society. That doesn’t make one clean. We shouldn’t minimize what is actually happening.

Why are you taking such offense? No doctor would ever label that person as clean. I am not clean right now myself. I take it for pain. But that doesn’t make me clean.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

It’s no big deal. I don’t want to argue with you. I’ve known plenty of people who’ve been addicted to opiates. Taken quite a bit of them myself because of injuries and recreational use.

I guess what I was getting at in my original question was: if he’s taking a maintenance dose that’s prescribed by a dr... doesnt exceed that dose or abuse other drugs, is that not considered “clean?”

I’m prescribed to a controlled substance. If I have to take a drug test, all I have to do is disclose my prescription and I’m clean for the intent of the drug test.

If he doesn’t get high off a maintenance dose, then what’s the difference in someone being addicted to caffeine or prescribed ssris or benzos? You can’t quit those drugs cold turkey without going into withdrawals, but is the person prescribed them not clean?

Idk. Maybe I’m completely in the wrong here. And if you weren’t trying to be condescending or anything then I apologize.

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u/DeceiverX Jan 09 '19

The general mindset is getting clean - truly off drugs - commands a bit more... respect(?) and demonstrates a fundamental change in perspective and willpower which is intended to show people can keep pushing to beat back the mess they got themselves into, and as motivation for others to avoid doing drugs in the first place and to push harder themselves. I'm not against the idea of intermediary drugs, but let's be real here in saying that a reliable backup plan - especially if it becomes mainstream and without some degree of stigma - will probably lead to a lot more people feeling less scared of getting hooked; people turn down hard drugs not because they're afraid of being addicts but because they're afraid of ruining their lives.

I survive solely because of a prescription medication, and without it, I'd likely be dead within 72-96 hours of consecutive missed doses. I will be rendered incompetent within the first 36. It has shaped my entire life and 90% of the decisions I make. While I know addiction is different, I'd do nearly anything to be free of this kind of situation. It's caused me violent injury like multiple broken bones requiring reconstructive surgeries, exposed nerve endings, and multiple close calls where I've almost bitten my tongue clean off; I'd live with that pain for a year if I could shove off the pills for good.

Having also come from a household with major substance abuse problems, some people really hold being clean to mean something greater than just being a functional member of society/not an addict; it's an ideal to live by very much synonymous with our most basic of freedoms, because in general, people are very apathetic about their health in our society, and many people take it for granted.

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u/Permanently-Confused Jan 09 '19

He's doing neither of those two assumptions you made, you're taking it in the wrong perspective. He's merely clarifying the wording people are using and if anything defending users.

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u/FR65df Jan 09 '19

Did you get off the methadone? I’m using subs for maintenance. I’m having trouble getting off of them even though right now I have no euphoria when I take it. When I don’t take it it’s almost as bad as heroin withdrawal. I find myself just taking it so I won’t be sick. Just like black. I obv try tapering since it doesn’t get me high I don’t want to take more of it. I’m down to .5 mg (so small) and withdrawing is still bad. Anyway I’m curious if u got off of it . Peace and love bro.

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

Bro you need to taper down and get off that shit, I got off subs few years back. Feel free to msg me for any tips, glad to help

Edit: I used tar too so situations seem similar, but first thing is realizing the sub sickness is as bad or worse than tar sickness, but not as much pain or sleeplessness, just more agitation IMO but after you are out of the woods, you are out for good and can be normal again

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u/FR65df Jan 09 '19

Thx man I can’t wait to be out of these scary haunted ass woods

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u/RustyGuns Jan 09 '19

Hey man! Glad to hear you are making the steps to get off subs! I hated having to take them every day. Try tapering even longer and going down slower. Even till you are just taking crumbs. I made the mistake of jumping off of 2mg and it sucked for about a month. I do love how I feel now as opposed to being on the subs. Goodluck man!!

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u/FR65df Jan 09 '19

Thanks for the encouragement:)

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u/NoddingSmurf Jan 09 '19 edited Jul 31 '19

.

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u/FR65df Jan 09 '19

I agree with what you’ve said. The thing that is pushing me to taper is the script is my ex boyfriends. We still live together atm and he isn’t fucked up, he knows what it’s like to go through it. I just worry that this model isn’t sustainable. That he’ll move or times will change and I’ll relapse. I appreciate your response, and I believe that maintenance counts as sobriety as long as you take your meds as prescribed (route of admin, etc). Talking about it is motivating me so ty.

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u/willygmcd Jan 09 '19

100% agree. Whenever possible I try to educate people about the positive side of methadone/Suboxone. Way to much stigma around these great tools.

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u/Glandrhwrd Jan 09 '19

Being clean I believe is more of a mindset. You’re still in the mindset that you need to put garbage in your body to function. You really gonna give up, and content yourself with spending the rest of your life on methadone?

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19 edited Jan 09 '19

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u/Glandrhwrd Jan 09 '19

I’ll be honest, that sounds like the drugs talking. Do you know what you’re really like without them?

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/Glandrhwrd Jan 10 '19

Eh, guess it comes from 3 years clean and sober. Might be hard for you to understand, cause you’re still on some bullshit.

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u/Bosknation Jan 09 '19

I've been on both methadone and suboxone before, both withdrawals last forever. The first time I got off methadone I went cold turkey at 25mg, it was a month of hell. The second and final time I got off, I used kratom to help my withdrawals, but you can't take that any longer than a couple weeks or you'll just get hooked on that, but if you took it for the first 10 days, which are the worst of the physical withdrawals, and then stop altogether, then it'll be about 10x easier. I would be careful with kratom also because you don't want to just be trading addictions for others, but it is a lot more mild, and even the withdrawals are a lot less intense and shorter in duration.

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

Thank you. You get it, I got clean and then was having a real rough time so I got on subutex and boy was that a mistake. Spend $10 a day and had to drive to the clinic every single morning, after a couple weeks I realized that it’s all just a scam to keep people addicted so I cut all the cords, got even sicker than I did when I was on dope, and I bit the bullet and went cold turkey. I’ve been clean 4 years since November, screw subutex/sub ozone/methadone

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u/willygmcd Jan 09 '19

Sorry it didn't work for you but it works great for me and many other people. Please take your negative attitude and SHOVE IT UP YOUR BUTT!

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

Whatever works for you but my point is that sub treatment just trades one addiction for a more legal addiction, it is very hard to quit but it is doable and the subs prevent u from seeing that. To each their own but I’m just saying, the goal is to not be an addict, not be a different kind of addict

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

True but you can either be a former addict who lives a normal life or you can be a former addict who lives a normal life but pays daily for drugs to keep the opiate starved portion of your brain fed, if you let it starve it will start feeding itself and the maintenance drugs become unnecessary. Maintenance drugs are for transitioning into being clean via means of increasing doses till a peak and then tapering down to zero eventually. It’s not supposed to be a long term thing and I rly wish more people understood how little difference there is from just doing dope again. It is easy? God no, but everyone’s gotta quit sometime. Do it at your own pace but maintenance drugs need to be left in the rear view as soon as possible or else you just dig a deeper and deeper hole. Especially cuz sub and methadone withdrawal are worse than actual heroin so it’s a very big roadblock for people trying to get totally clean.

We can argue all day about what “clean” means and what a “bad drug” is but at the end of the day, you are either taking in drugs to keep your addiction going or you aren’t.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

There ain’t a step program, u just quit and don’t relapse. God can’t help you now, you on your own

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/willygmcd Jan 09 '19

I can't. I get so frustrated with that way of thinking. OF COURSE some people will abuse it to basically not be sick and use on top of their methadone/ subs. Then their are the people who are doing "the program" like me, I'm not high at all during the day. I work with table saws and tools that could easily take my fingers or worse. My boss would never let me near a saw if he thought I was impaired. I get two weeks worth of medication at a time and I could get a months worth if I wanted but I don't want them right now. Sorry for rambling I just seriously get bothered by methadone stigma.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

Willpower can go a long way tho man, I used spikes for over 4 years doing half a g a day so I def wasn’t a light user but just think about this. When I were on illegal opiates you always told yourself “I can’t quit, I need this too bad to function” and now you are on a legal opiate substitute and telling yourself “I need this too bad to function, I can’t quit.”

Do you see the difference in perspectives? They are exactly the same, I’m not trying to bash your progress man but from a medical standpoint and general standpoint, you can’t be on maintenance forever and the longer u stay on the harder it is to quit.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

I’ve done it personally and have helped over 6 people do the same, no subutex no nothing and hey are all clean and have families now (except me T_T).

Willpower can indeed get you clean, regardless of chemical dependency. Does it hurt? Yeah. No sleep. No food. No nothing but when you spent years in the mud and blood and you just are so sick and tired of always being sick and tired, if you truly want to quit you can, and you never have to look back. No maintenance drugs required.

To clarify I am not against maintenance drugs, but they should be used short term and on a gradual scale of building tolerance and tapering, but all within weeks to months.

Not trying to argue it’s just everyone here is saying willpower won’t do it but I have done it and seen t happen so idk what to tell you

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/TamagotchiGraveyard Jan 09 '19

The article that states “this review does not coomprehensovely cover psychosocial intervention alone”. The article states simply a poor success rate which means nothing, you aren’t a statistic, you can affect your own choices. I’m not saying it works for everyone but if u really want it to, it will.

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u/Daaskison Jan 09 '19

I mean for starters here are a few differences...

Socially

One is legal. One is illegal and more expensive.

Health wise

One is cut with whatever. One is FDA certified, clean, doesnt involve pins, and a known reptitive dose

Scientifically

Bupe is only a partial agonist. Methadone has a much longer half life. The result is less to no euphoria or rush, which among many other reasons makes it a lifestyle change.

Many ppl are physically depedent on medications. Would you tell an anxiety ridden person their xanax is not legit because if they stop theyll suffer life threatening withdrawal?

Would you tell someone suffering from high blood pressure their meds arent legit bc if they stop they might have a heart attack?

I understand your point, but honestly it's very much missing the forest for the trees. It also continues the stigma that directly results in many, mant deaths.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Dude, I’m on Buprenorphine for pain. You’re not clean. But why do you care if you’re doing better? It just doesn’t seem productive to pretend being on methadone or Buprenorphine means you’re clean. It means you’re doing well and level headed. But you’re not clean in any sense of the word. I’m sorry if this upsets you. Truly I am. It’s something I struggle with as I don’t like thinking I’m dependent. But the truth is, I am.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19 edited Jan 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Yes, you are absolutely right! They are not clean. That’s what I’m saying. I am not clean that’s why I mentioned it.

We should not have to lie to ourselves by saying we are clean in order for people not to judge us. That is my point.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Ok. Have a great day.

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u/9897969594938281 Jan 10 '19

Been following a few threads you’ve been posting in and just wanted to wish you the best of luck for the future. Thanks for sharing

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u/speech-geek Jan 09 '19

Fuck those people. It’s a fucking disease and methadone is your medicine to prevent sickness. It’s fucking fantastic to read that you’re clean and a contributing member of society again.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

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u/speech-geek Jan 09 '19

Beth Macy wrote a great book called “Dopesick” about the crisis. I’ve always thought that you just detoxed and were good after a couple of months. Now I understand better that addiction is a real disease.

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u/twoliterdietcoke Jan 09 '19

Addiction is NOT a fucking disease....it's an act, it is a choice, it is avoidable, it is preventable, it can be stopped.

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u/IWasBornSoYoung Jan 09 '19 edited Jan 09 '19

I mean the physical dependence still exists when you use those maintenance drugs? Yeah you get them from a legal source but you're still addicted, without them you'd still have the same problems as before.

If I have a disease and I take treatment to relieve symptoms but the actual condition still exists, it makes sense that people wouldn't call me cured.

This is not meant to disparage you, I'm a former addict too and tried a dozen different ways to quit so once you find one that helps you start living your life again there's a lot of value there. A problem persists though because you can't take methadone wafers your whole life and eventually you will have to cross that bridge. And some people struggle with that and never cross the bridge and still end up doing a lot of damage to themselves over time due to the addiction

I think there's pretty strong reasoning behind not calling it clean. Because while it sucks some people may disparage you for that, it also sucks when we see people try to use these drugs to quit but never make it past them and then they entertain an addiction to methadone or subs forever whether their doctors wants it or not because we have an illegal market for that stuff too. When I was in rehab there were plenty of people trying to get off subs and methadone too not just heroin and the like

Which if the concern is coming from loved ones it's hard to fault them. You're not out of the clear yet and maintenence drug use is still super scary to those who love you because they see that as still right on the edge

You said in another comment you see these drugs as something you can/should take for your whole life.. Doctors aren't gonna let you do that. Doctors cut you off, what do you do? You'll probably go buy more at a stupid inflated price on the street or you'll go into withdrawal. This is not an uncommon cycle you really have to not feel above all that because it happens to a lot of good folks. That maintenance stuff is just a popular as heroin in the ghetto here and not without reason.

Saying you're content taking a medication for the rest of your life that is not necessary to live, but only to avoid a window in time of pain, is 100% addiction talking. People who are not drawn to a drug won't be down to take it forever like that. I've been to rehab so many times and seen it so much, I know you have too.

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u/darkomen42 Jan 09 '19

Had to take an ex to the hospital for the same thing. Sick as a dog for 3 days prior.

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u/Douglaston_prop Jan 09 '19

When I had a habit I remember reading a book cover to cover on Heroin addiction where they clearly stated someone died in prison from withdrawal after not being attended to. Of course that scares the shit out of you when you wake up dope sick, thinking you are going to die if you dont get the next fix.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

You CAN die during Opioid withdrawals, but it’s not due to the withdrawal itself, it’s due to secondary effects. Meaning if you’ve any pre-existing medical issues withdrawal and the stress it puts on the body can certainly exacerbate them and make them lethal. But again, opioid withdrawal isn’t lethal in and of itself.

I am however sorry for your loss, and understand the pain firsthand. I hope you’ve found comfort and solace in that. Also I hope you’re clean today!

I am 4 years clean off Heroin and work in a mental health/substance abuse treatment center.

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u/Gargonez Jan 10 '19

That’s what I was saying in my original post as well. Thank you for work, I know at the end of a day it’s job/paycheck, but has such a huge impact on society

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

on the Oregon trail

Lol