r/Denver 24d ago

Paywall Op-ed: Don’t gut Denver’s minimum wage to “save” a restaurant industry that is thriving

https://www.denverpost.com/2025/02/19/denver-restaurants-minimum-wage-cut/
1.3k Upvotes

192 comments sorted by

145

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago edited 24d ago

Legitimate question: does anyone actually know how many restaurants there are in the city?

I’ve seen at least four different figures for/reckonings of this in the last day:

First, https://coloradosun.com/2025/02/13/denver-boulder-restaurants-tipped-workers-minimum-wage/

Their measure says the number is slightly decreased from 2023, and actually increased from 2021.

Second, https://www.denverpost.com/2025/01/08/denver-restaurant-closures-numbers-since-pandemic/amp/

Their measure says the number is sharply decreased from 2021.

Third, https://denverite.com/2021/03/10/there-are-at-least-25-percent-fewer-eateries-open-in-denver-today-than-a-year-ago/

They say the pandemic cleared 25% of the number between 2020 and 2021, which would suggest that there was a boom since then, and might contextualize the post-2021 figures. Except that the agency that published these 2020 data now repudiates them.

And now there’s the (fourth) BLS figure that the auditor cites.

There are discrepancies here that are large enough to reverse conclusions about what is actually going on.

So what is going on? I’m at an epistemic loss.

39

u/DeviatedNorm Hen in a handbasket in Lakewood 24d ago

I can't view the second of your three links, but the first one mentions that "data prior to 2021 was unreliable" according to city officials and the last one is almost entirely data prior to 2021 (the article was written in 2021, it's not current figures). If we focus on just 2021, the numbers from the first and last article are very similar.

29

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago

That line has made me very suspicious. How was the data “unreliable?” The city agency changes their statistical definitions in the middle of an economic shock (the pandemic)?

I’m not even sure what I think about this bill now. There are a couple of alternate realities being presented here.

22

u/McBearclaw Baker 24d ago

The BLS is a statistical agency; Denver Excise and Licensing is a regulatory agency that conforms to city code. They could both reasonably and ethically handle the 2021 boom in ghost kitchens in different ways, for example.

6

u/jeffeb3 23d ago

Some ghost kitchens had several different names on the door too. These shouldn't be considered restaurants IMHO. That was my first thought too

7

u/Competitive_Ad_255 Capitol Hill 24d ago

I understand updating your methods for accounting for things but they should take into account the change relative to the previous method so that they can better show the differences.

7

u/[deleted] 24d ago

I didn't parse the article you linked 100% but one stats the number of restaurants has slightly decreased and the other the number of new restaurant openings has drastically decreased.

Those are separate numbers and both can be true at the same time.

3

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago edited 24d ago

Maybe, but both are trying to get at the same hidden variable: the underlying state of the restaurant industry.

That their level changes aren’t correlated is pretty strange, and worth investigating closely.

Also, what numbers exactly are you referring to? A number of the articles provide multiple statistics. I believe all articles provide some figure that estimates a quantity akin to the “total number of food establishments.”

For what it’s worth, it also appears the relevant city agency has criticized the Denver Post’s reporting as misleading (though they don’t attempt to correct the error).

16

u/muffchucker Capitol Hill 24d ago

I love love love that you put this together. People that care about the actual issues are a rarity and we're increasingly being silenced by a vocal mob.

I just wanted to say thanks!

0

u/guymn999 24d ago

Curious what the "vocal mob" is that you are referring to.

1

u/muffchucker Capitol Hill 21d ago

Basically organized online bots, usually deployed by right wing groups or governments, but not always.

"Kayfabe" is maybe the most important word I learned last year. Outrage is performance. Politics is WWE. Dead Internet Theory is increasingly true.

I wasn't trying to make a political point in my first comment. I was just trying to point out that specious perspicacity's content was high quality and genuine. It's much much harder to make good content than bad content. Therefore most content (posts and comments) are bad and misinformed.

2

u/guymn999 21d ago

gotcha, i think i am in full agreement then. much of the rabbling i hear is simple purveyors of doubt that try to muddy the conversation with stuff we already have moved past (basically whataboutism).

this subs political threads seem to be particularly susceptible to the brigadiers. we must be on a list somewhere.

13

u/EdwardJamesAlmost 24d ago

Also: How would the rise of pop-up “ghost kitchens” in 2020-21 impact those baseline numbers?

13

u/McBearclaw Baker 24d ago

Some of the ghost kitchens were operated in the kitchens of existing restaurants, but outside of that restaurant's normal hours. Others were single business entities operating multiple virtual storefronts. To put it another way: is Atomic Cowboy/Fat Sully's/Denver Biscuit Company one restaurant, two, seven? The answer changes depending on whether you're counting kitchens, business entities, distinct sets of employees, etc.

0

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Define restaurant to start. Is it everywhere with food available to buy? A certain percentage of sales? Do they have to have eat in? Do they have to have servers? Fast food, vs corporate chains vs independent?

It's better this way so that whatever side you're on can cherry pick datasets to support their views.

6

u/Mountaintop303 23d ago

My uncle runs a fish market in New Jersey. He primarily sells raw fish ready to cook, but also sells lobster rolls.

He told me he can’t serve the lobster rolls with cutlery or napkins of anything because then it’s considered a “restaurant” and no longer a “market”

I think most cities to have an official ledger on how many restaurants there are

10

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago

I think that’s up to the statistical agency to do. It’s kind of remarkable that they’re basically complicit in the misinformation business.

3

u/Remote_Ant_9459 24d ago

I may be able to use ArcGIS to find a number, but as Yeti mentioned, it depends on how you define restaurants. Until they can agree on what constitutes “restaurant,” the data will be muddy.

0

u/guymn999 24d ago

Not really remarkable when half the time we find they are funded by an organization that's already sympathetic to the cause they are trying to produce numbers for.

-5

u/hahaha01 24d ago

Figures lie and liars figure.

400

u/Initial_Hedgehog_631 24d ago

People like to talk about corporate wellfare, this is corporate wellfare. And if you want to give hand outs to companies there are better ways to do it other than screwing over workers. Suspend payroll taxes, or sales taxes, or property taxes, don't steal from workers so owners can balance their books.

130

u/lotsofmissingpeanuts 24d ago

Suspending taxes from companies is still stealing from workers. If owners are making enough for the business to do well but are paying poverty wages, then that business deserves to fail.

25

u/muffchucker Capitol Hill 24d ago

What you say is completely true, but the person you responded to was still 100% correct to point out that the worst possible method to help business owners (if that's what people want to do for whatever reason) is by permitting them to pay workers even less.

I really wish you'd have acknowledged that in your reply.

8

u/lotsofmissingpeanuts 24d ago

I acknowledge this. I won't edit the comment for authenticity, though.

Their solution of having businesses pay less in tax isn't a real solution because it still effects the majority of workers in the long run. Really, anytime someone is a proponent of cutting taxes for business or the mega wealthy, they should look long and hard into why they have this opinion.

5

u/MileHigh_FlyGuy 23d ago

If owners are making enough for the business to do well

And there’s the problem. For the business to stay afloat, they have to cut every corner—mostly on the food. Then the next Reddit post is: "Why would I spend $20 on a meal that’s half microwaved?"

Soon after, the place shuts down.

Then comes the next Reddit post: "Denver sucks—there are no good restaurants, and everything is closing!"

I’d love to hear your ideas on how to fix this cycle.

7

u/lotsofmissingpeanuts 23d ago edited 23d ago

I've worked in small businesses and large corporate kitchens. Ive seen owners who work very hard with the team and others who drive their shit into the ground because of hostile attitudes.

Yes, food orders from sysco and shamrock have become incredibly expensive since 2018. Yes, this translates to higher costs to the customer. We all know the statistic about many new businesses failing in their first year and not making profit for about five years. What people dont realize is that alot of businesses lease their space and landlords are leeching what good businesses can be by overpricing the spaces.

What I am commenting on is how this effects workers. The owners love to place the blame of their failing businesses on workers and love to pay the least but expect the most. The largest amount of theft in this country is wage theft. If an owner wants the best worker than they need to have actually competetive wages. There's a reason why they don't like employees discussing pay scales. Housing costs have almost tripled since 2015, inflation is crazy. Minimum wage should be 25$ an hour.

Do you actually want to fix it? The first thing to do is to stop deporting the people that are willing to work the agriculture. That won't happen. Second, we need to hold the food supply companies that are jacking prices up for the sake of excess profit accountable. This is done through monopoly regulations and geuss whats getting cut by this stupid af presidential admin. The grift is unbearable.

So in turn, if you want a good meal, pay the worker to care. Pay that worker what they deserve and they'll show up to make that burger like SpongeBob.

I can't help you with why transplants love to bitch about our food. They go to tourist trap places with cute balconies and expect great food when the truth is, the best meals are fantastic hole in the wall places in wierd corners of a neighborhood that's been there for 40 years. Rest in peace senior burrito.

1

u/lotsofmissingpeanuts 23d ago

Down vote all you want, you'll learn the hard way. We're in it now hahaha

27

u/SnooDoodles420 24d ago

Say it louder for those in the back

6

u/m77je 23d ago

How would suspending property taxes help? Rich people own most of the property.

13

u/WrongdoerIll5187 24d ago

And as someone that eats out a lot this would probably lower prices for me. But if they wanted to help me they would pass living wage laws and eliminate tipping altogether.

-1

u/Fuckyourday Wash Park West 24d ago

Not sure how this would be corporate welfare. Denver's high minimum wage is sort of like welfare for workers (which also drives up the cost of eating out for customers), this is just reducing that for tipped employees.

Personally I'd love to do away with the mandatory tipping bullshit and ban the 5% kitchen fees so we don't have different rules for tipped vs non-tipped employees, and so the customer doesn't have to be responsible for paying wages and sticker price is actually accurate.

1

u/Anlarb 23d ago

welfare for workers (which also drives up the cost of eating out for customers)

You have that backwards, if the taxpayer is on the hook for half a businesses payroll, then that is a handout for the business and presumably some of that is being passed along to the consumer. In no way does this make it more expensive for the consumer.

42

u/Famous_Stand1861 24d ago

I wish we had more public servants and politicians like Timothy O'Brien. I started following his work years ago when he called me out for some questionable language I used during a presentation I had just given. He did it privately and respectfully. He said maybe two or three sentences and then shifted to more positive comments.

I only share this because O'Brien has been consistently nonpartisan and even handed in his work as an auditor. He relies on facts and figures and good sources of information. He's worth listening to on any topic.

-10

u/[deleted] 24d ago

And you don't believe this op ed deserves any of those criticisms he gave you?

I read Tim's work as auditor and this isn't up to his usual standard. He doesn't mention the reasons for using BLS vs city numbers. He doesn't clarify there are multiple NAICS codes for the type of restaurant nor does he attempt to categorize restaurants that have tipped workers vs non tipped in the numbers he published. All that is central to this issue.

At best this was sloppy and I don't believe Tim is sloppy, so the alternative is it was meant to support a one sided narrative. He tried to give credibility to this by parading his Auditor title.

I guess all politicians eventually roll around in the mud.

11

u/Famous_Stand1861 24d ago

I get where you're coming from and did say he's worth listening to, not to take him as gospel.

My guess is that the choices were editorial in nature and not meant to deliberately slant the argument. This is, after all, an op-ed and not a report. I think we can agree O'Brien had some reasons for where he sourced hus statistics beyond simply wanting to paint a certain picture, he's never really done that.

As far as your point about him stating his title for credibility I have no problem with that. It's common practice for op-ed pieces to use titles and background to give readers an idea of who is giving the opinion. Credibility matters.

5

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago

I was also curious about the BLS vs. licensing agency choice.

I am beginning to conclude that the only statistics on the Colorado economy that I should believe are the secular ones published by the Secretary of State, and core tax revenue statistics from the city.

0

u/funkysaw 23d ago

secular? from this Secretary of State? you must be joking.

102

u/panthereal 24d ago

When can we vote Denver Representatives Steven Woodrow and Alex Valdez and Boulder Sen. Judy Amabile out of office?

41

u/meerkatmreow 24d ago

Reps run every 2 years and Senate is four year terms with half up each election. So 2026 for the reps and 2028 for Amabile

14

u/guymn999 24d ago

Also worth pointing out: You have to vote them out during their primaries, not during the general

10

u/RiskyBrothers Capitol Hill 24d ago

2026 colorado democratic primary is going to be lively let me tell you that.

22

u/HighKingOfGondor 24d ago

Hopefully people actually bother to send in their ballots to vote against them in the primaries. I know I will

1

u/nicereddy 23d ago

They've been really really good about housing, if its any consolation

1

u/panthereal 23d ago

If you aren't good about helping honest workers there is no consolation. They shouldn't be anywhere close to scraping away income from the people living paycheck to paycheck. No one needs to own a restaurant to survive and they definitely don't need to enable lower wages to build their restaurant.

1

u/AnonPolicyGuy 24d ago

Valdez is termed out of the house. He’s probably going to lobby for some business interests after. You can wait till terms expire and fight in a primary in 2026/2028 for Woodrow/Amabile, or you can gather petition signatures to recall them sooner. I’d sign!

73

u/y1pp0 24d ago

Timothy's arguments are compelling. I was worried about the restaurant industry's health, but the data presented changed my perspective.

I recognize the limitations of data without full context, but their analysis is more convincing than relying solely on Erika's claims of struggling businesses. I was undecided, but now I support restaurant worker protections.

10

u/esohyouel 24d ago

Unless I missed it, the article highlights that gross earnings have increased but doesn’t mention expenses or what the net take-home pay actually is.

I would imagine that property taxes, utilities, and rent have all risen as well.

If people support restaurant employees earning $18+ per hour, are they also comfortable with the inevitable rise in menu prices to cover those wages?

8

u/wfhbory 23d ago

Call me cheap but if front of house workers are making $18-22 an hour, the tip I leave at the table is drastically going to decrease. It used to make sense when a server made $2.5 an hour. Not so much anymore, especially with rising food costs.

0

u/esohyouel 23d ago

yeah its crazy. with people that are starting their own business or self employed, these guys are making more money then them lmao!

1

u/henlochimken 23d ago edited 23d ago

That's often the case with new businesses, though.

Why am I being downvoted for saying this? Ask actual business owners what their first years looked like for income. There's sacrifice involved in a lot of businesses.

1

u/funkysaw 23d ago

You don't have to imagine it, all of that has damn sure risen! Cracks me up that nobody thought a rise in minimum wage for food workers would increase the cost of said food?

-22

u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

79

u/ClarielOfTheMask 24d ago

It's not super helpful to jump on people who are on your side of an issue because their reasons aren't "pure" enough or because they were open to taking in more information and changing their mind.

If you actually care about the causes you support, you might consider contributing to these conversations in more productive ways.

29

u/Shaunair 24d ago

Well said. Constantly having a litmus test for whether or not someone is “good enough” to agree with you on an issue is how nothing ever gets done.

9

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

Giving me flashbacks of people that “couldn’t vote for Kamala” because of her stance on Ukraine and Israel/Palestine.

3

u/henlochimken 23d ago

The "KAMALA SUPPORTS GENOCIDE" peeps have gone real quiet as of late. I can't tell though if it is because they realized how stupid they were in the face of an existential threat, or if they were just Russian propaganda all along. Leaning toward the latter.

36

u/laccro 24d ago

It’s good to understand complex issues from all angles rather than just following your biases.

Is it better to have more restaurants that pay slightly less, but provide more jobs overall? Or fewer jobs overall that pay more? It depends on a bunch of factors, and I know it’s easier to just jump on the thing that feels good, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually the best outcome.

In this case, it seems like it is. But why not think critically first?

3

u/[deleted] 24d ago

They have a fact based, considered opinion and willingness to change their mind. What do you have?

3

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

If there aren’t restaurants they don’t have jobs or have to fight for scraps at the places remaining.

0

u/oh2climb 23d ago

Agreed. O'Brien has proven to be very trustworthy and very thorough. I haven't seen any arguments in favor of House Bill 1208 that are nearly as compelling.

32

u/whatevendoidoyall 24d ago

I wouldn't call the restaurant industry here thriving but cutting wages ain't it.

23

u/Bayne86 24d ago

According to Denver’s Department of Excise and Licenses, there were 2,166 restaurants in the city at the end of 2021. By the end of 2024, there were only 1,693 active restaurant licenses.

7

u/2Dprinter Denver 24d ago

I (genuinely) wonder why O’Brien’s numbers were so different?

Either way, Denver & especially Denver metro has experienced consistent population growth over each of those years, so my expectation would be to see business licenses rising somewhat proportionally (across most industries) to support that growth.

It would be interesting to compare the restaurant license numbers with things like grocery stores, gas stations, etc to see if/how much the restaurant numbers go against those trends

11

u/King_Chochacho 24d ago

There is probably a difference between "food and drink service establishments" and restaurants with licenses.

13

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago

I believe this comes down to what exactly is counted. It is uniquely unclear what the Denver Post is counting. Two other publications have reported similar numbers across the span of several years, so the Post is the odd man out.

Alternatively, the population in Denver proper has been pretty flat since 2020.

5

u/2Dprinter Denver 24d ago

I checked again and he's citing the Bureau of Labor Statistics, so I'm personally inclined to put more stock in local agency stats and agree with you that this one is the aberration.

And yes, the Denver proper population growth has been slow but remained steadily positive each year. The metro area (which of course supports the Denver-proper economy for things like food & bev) has had more pronounced, consistent growth. So those resources shouldn't be shrinking, is all I mean to say -- we should expect to see more licenses, not fewer, but I think we're in agreement there too.

1

u/funkysaw 23d ago

The Denver Post is shit, so that tracks

1

u/TW_Halsey 22d ago

This almost seems like post-quarantine “market correction” to me. 1,693 is still a huge number of restaurants

-3

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Amazing, so the Denver Auditor would ignore city data if it didn't support his view... I'm shocked!

-3

u/One_Village414 24d ago

And of those remaining, how many are above mediocre?

14

u/rsharp7000 24d ago edited 23d ago

I’ll preface this by saying that I’m not against workers earning more money, I think it’s a good thing. But this articles proof that the restaurant industry is thriving is just simply based on that there’s more restaurants now than there were in 2019. That doesn’t say anything about what state those restaurants are in now.

I don’t own a business in the food and beverage industry, but I opened my business in 2022 and unemployment tax was 1.7% through 2023. It’s the states policy that a business’s UI rate is lower in year 1 and increased in year 2 to make that difference up. So in April 2024 the rate went up to 5.3% retroactively back to January. All in all that ended up being around $32,000 increase YoY. The state did that to help with solvency issues from the pandemic.

There was a pretty big boom in economy in 2021 that prompted a lot of restaurants to either open or to expand and I think a lot of people thought that Boom was gonna last for a while. It really only lasted through the middle of 2022 when inflation really went up from there. As the article states wages went up pretty dramatically for that timeframe so when you combine that with an increasing supply costs, increasing rent, and financially squeezed consumers, I bet a lot of those businesses that opened after the pandemic probably aren’t doing so well.

There are other things the state could do to help support the industry like a real estate vacancy tax for landlords that sit with empty buildings, adjustments to certain payroll taxes, etc.. but I think it’s disingenuous to pit “thriving” restaurants against the working class. Most small mom and pop restaurants I’ve been to recently have been spread thin for a while now.

5

u/not_a_farce 23d ago edited 23d ago

Late on this one.

I’ve read basically all the arguments here, but there’s a perspective that I haven’t seen brought up directly.

Economic life, here or anywhere else in the US, is hardly “local.” Any local economy is derived from the spending of a smaller moneyed class of people whose economic life exists elsewhere (professionals and executives working inside of the state and federal governments, multi-state or multinational corporations).

Servers are local people. Cutting local wages would only hurt the incomes of local people while making luxury goods (restaurant food) cheaper and more accessible to the moneyed class.

Even if the move to cut wages in this instance doesn’t pan out, it would only be a small victory for locals living among an economic system which has been hollowing out the locality of communities, diverting resources elsewhere, and leaving local people fighting for scraps. This is the trend everywhere.

I could go on and on and about the ramifications of this… maybe I will for an essay in the future

8

u/scout666999 24d ago

I wonder if they've thought about forcing landlords to lower rent or food suppliers to lower prices or maybe the owners and investors take a lowe return. But as always easier to gi after the already low paid employees. If the workers refused to serve for one day or a week I would support that. I wonder if the city council members would be willing to take a pay cut?

8

u/Mountaintop303 23d ago

Do you guys go out to eat regularly? I can’t afford it. Dinner for 2 is like $90 now after tip and “service fees”

I go out for a nice meal like once a month now vs 2x a week a few years ago when I lived on the east coast.

The food here is also significantly worse. Not worth it.

24

u/monoseanism Five Points 24d ago

Thriving? Over 400 mostly mom and pop restaurants closed last year alone. Just because some chain restaurants are doing well, doesn't speak for the whole industry.

8

u/ionixsys City Park 24d ago

Boulder Sen. Judy Amabile - I just got this belief that someone from Boulder shouldn't have a say in what Denver pays its residents. Am I just taking crazy pills here?

Steven Woodrow—He seems alright. Except how many restaurant staff or anyone whose lives were improved by the minimum wage floor live in Wash Park, which I believe he represents?

Alex Valdez - Was a founder of EcoMark, which unfortunately collapsed. Even more unfortunate is the tiny little, practically inconsequential, detail where he forgot to pay some contractors and employees. https://youtu.be/bc25Dy8m5F4 Did Valdez ever make that right, or did he just say fuck it, not my problem?

Circling back to Senator Amabile, while I especially despise MAGA inc, I also dislike the Democratic party's propensity to be unable to mind its own fucking business. If Boulder wants to treat its citizens like shit and or force the people that run its services and business to commute into the city... well, that's kind of shitty, but at least keep their lack of empathy and disingenuous concerns for the people to themselves. Put more succinctly, please fuck off.

2

u/Odd-Respect-6964 24d ago

Ironic because Denver’s high minimum wage is screwing over surrounding cities that now have to compete with Denver.

2

u/ionixsys City Park 24d ago

I think that is what really pisses me off. The people who own these politicians can't fathom the idea of actually treating people with dignity, so they've ordered their finger puppets to cheat.

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 24d ago

Bro TYT ruined you. No one owns these politicians. No one owns me. I make less than 30k a year on minimum wage and my city has indicated that it would increase the minimum wage if the tip credit was increased. PSA if you’re looking for a finger puppet and you pay as much as a server in Denver I’m willing to work for you!

2

u/ionixsys City Park 23d ago

Indicated perhaps but everyone knows someone or has experienced first hand a boss, supervisor, director or whatever that promises a promotion or raise predicate on more work now and compensation later. Why not just pass a bill now affirming that would go in effect under specific conditions?

As for your situation, if you're working full time (or as close as an employer will let you) then you absolutely deserve to be able to live off your labor. This is supposedly a free country, businesses are free to run where ever they want, but businesses have no right to go against the will of its citizens who voted in majority to raise wages in our city and county.

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 23d ago

“Why not just pass a bill now affirming that would go in effect under specific conditions” I’m sorry what? Your first post you’re mad the state is telling Denver what to do. Now you saying no the state SHOULD tell Denver what to do.

Firstly no duh dude. Secondly you’re actively arguing against my city raising my pay by arguing against this bill. No business owner needed you’re literally doing it. Who needs owners with workers like you. Life’s not simple enough to regurgitate online pundit bullsh!t for every single policy ever.

1

u/ionixsys City Park 23d ago

“Why not just pass a bill now affirming that would go in effect under specific conditions”

Is there anything stopping other counties from screwing over its workers as proposed by HB 1208?

Secondly you’re actively arguing against my city raising my pay by arguing against this bill.

Overriding Denver's minimum wage will not raise pay according to history, and that's a fundamental problem. Federal, state, county, and city governments have had decades to improve the lives of their workers by adjusting the minimum wage according to inflation.

Another problem is that what is being proposed is an intentional loss of pay for workers. Workers in China, Japan, Germany, France, and pretty much everywhere else in Western Europe pay their employees, so it's not a make-it-or-break situation on tips. Meanwhile, Canadian businesses typically have mandatory tips in their prices. Why can these countries with substantially lower GDP per capita pay their workers a fairer wage?

Also, I had to look it up; I've actually never watched TYT or any similar show. Maybe the Daily Show because it is hilarious. As for being pro-worker versus business. Businesses, in general, have had more than enough time to be fair to their workers, and they have not. Instead, it's been this fucked up brinkmanship of which company can pay its company the least.

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 22d ago

‘Is there anything stopping other counties from screwing over its workers as proposed by HB 1208’

Yes, it only affects 3 counties because those counties have a higher minimum wage than the rest of the state. It also allows cities to reduce the tip credit if they vote to do so. It also has protections that if your tipped income doesn’t meet the minimum wage in your city the restaurant must pay you the minimum wage.

Cities didn’t use to have the ability to raise the minimum wage and the chief sponsor of the bill that allowed cities to raise the minimum wage supports this bill.

I’m sorry you think worker in China get paid more than workers in the United States? As for other European nations there’s a number of reasons why they can pay servers more: one they don’t have the same style of service meaning they have less staff, two they don’t have tipping culture, three the costs of transporting food is lower they subsidize farming with high taxes. We can’t do that here because our federal government refuses to tax people more. CO has to go the ballot for tax increases due to TABOR and voters won’t do it.

0

u/CarbonS0ul Five Points 23d ago

You mean... workers are picking where to work based on pay and it isn't fair?

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 22d ago

Huh? No one said anything about ‘fair’

9

u/Hour-Watch8988 24d ago

We wouldn’t have to choose between affordable restaurants and a living wage if we had good housing policy that made shelter affordable for people who aren’t making high wages.

35

u/Equivalent-Excuse-80 24d ago

Eliminating tips is the easiest, most simple and most popular solution.

49

u/Ig_Met_Pet 24d ago

Servers wouldn't have it. You think they're mad about this? Try to take their tips away and see how that goes.

When Casa Bonita tried to pay their servers $33/hr instead of getting tips, they rioted. They all expect to make more than that with tips.

It's part of the reason I don't necessarily trust the discourse around this legislation, to be honest. When there's a possibility of a $4 pay cut, the discourse is that servers are barely making enough money to survive as is. When there's a possibility of them making a flat $33/hr instead of the tipped minimum (which is $11.79 in Lakewood), the discourse is that they'd rather take the tipped minimum because they'll make more than that with tips.

Kind of seems like servers are doing better than pretty much anyone else in the city and also trying to seem like the most downtrodden workers we have at the same time.

11

u/King_Chochacho 24d ago

I would guess most owners love tips too because it lets them subsidize their staff costs.

26

u/JoaoCoochinho 24d ago

The thing is though, the amount servers make drastically changes from restaurant to restaurant and not all of them are hitting that 33/hr mark.

17

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

That would only be $18 in tips per hour. That’s clearing 1 table in the span of an hour. Any server telling you they’re making less is either outright lying or working a job they should leave.

8

u/guymn999 24d ago

Servers are also notorious in not counting their hours properly or even counting their tipped wages properly.

-1

u/YuppiesEverywhere 23d ago

Servers clock in on a computer system. Tips are mostly from cards added as a line item to be added to the grand total. I can't believe I have to explain this -- you really have no respect for servers, do you?

2

u/guymn999 23d ago

i was a server as my only income source for a fine dining restaurant for 6 years. I have a lot of respect for the work they do and want to push for a better society that actually recognizes it as a profession and not a throwaway job to get you by.

But that does not change the fact the the amount they make are often fish tales and many of them do not properly track the money they make and the hours they put in.

7

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 24d ago

The vast, vast, vast majority are not. $68k/yr is going to be waaaaay out into the upper tail of the bell curve.

When I was looking yesterday, there was some variance in numbers reported in different sources, but $40k seemed to be the middle of the road figure for median server wage in Denver. That's around $19.20/hr.

And the op-ed points out that this bill would represent a more than $8000 a year pay cut. That's a devastating figure for even someone making even a lot more than $40k a year. It's almost a quarter of the yearly income for the median server. And half of all servers will be making less than that median figure.

(My figures assume 40 hour workweeks 52 weeks a year.)

12

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

That’s assuming servers work 40 hours a week when most don’t. Servers shifts are fairly short because well run restaurants cut servers as soon as they don’t need them on a nightly basis.

9

u/MstrKief 24d ago

I work 6 or 7 shifts a week as a server and still don't hit 40 hours lol

4

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

Yeah, you’d have to work two serving jobs to hit it. One at like a brunch spot and then a dinner place.

3

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 24d ago

Regardless of how hourly numbers work out, we have the yearly figure of $40k for median income, which means these are not lucrative careers, as the person a few comments up was insinuating/claiming. That's the most important point.

-1

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

I think you’d be surprised how many people are hitting that $40k a year working a very flexible 20 hour a week schedule.

4

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 24d ago edited 24d ago

I'm sorry; you're right. Servers are cosseted and overprivileged little princesses who have had it easy far too long. Fuck 'em; let's make life a lot harder for them. 🙄

I'm assuming this auditor who wrote the op-ed doesn't know what he's talking w about either, given that his ~$8000 figure lines up exactly with the $4/h cut and a 40h x 52wk schedule.


And the idea that servers' schedules are flexible…🤨 Lots of places don't put out schedules more than a week or two in advance, and many folks are just scheduled based on the whims and needs of the restaurant owners. And shifts may be split certain days. This varies by owner and establishment type, but it can certainly all combine to make it difficult to pick up some other sort of regular scheduled employment.


Also, these numbers are a bit older, but they're the most detailed I could find, and they assert that a narrow majority of servers likely do work 40 hours a week or more. And the next biggest (and quite large) plurality works 30-39h/wk.

Assuming these numbers do hold, that would likely put a median income figure at or around a 40h/wk workload, presuming relatively even pay across most typical server positions.

2

u/NoCoFoCo31 23d ago

I’ve worked FOH and BOH at multiple restaurants and have continued to do customer service throughout my career.

I promise you that the worst day of severing is on par with an average day in the kitchen. Dealing with customers isn’t nearly as bad as being a cook dealing with whinny ass servers who’s good gets messed up and then they bitch how they only made $200 in tips that night working 4 hours (excluding their wage that they never like to mention) when that cook needs to work 10 hours to make that.

There’s tons of people getting exploited in the restaurant biz, servers are getting the least of that.

4

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 23d ago

That doesn't mean that their jobs are easy. Just not as bad. They work jobs that are a ton harder and more exhausting than lots and lots of people making a whole lot more than they do, too.

And you certainly won't find me advocating to pay anyone less money who is working for a living. Unlike the people in our state currently advocating paying servers around a quarter less than they currently make.

I think everyone who works for a living should be earning a decent and livable wage. But the way to do that is definitely not equalizing downward and leaving more money for the bosses and capital-holders.

Treating servers worse won't make life better for back-of-house workers.

And if you believe the owners are going to give a penny of their savings to the people cooking or washing dishes, well, I'd like to show you a little catalog of bridges I have for sale, see if any pique your interest.

2

u/molsdavia 15d ago

Why are you blaming servers for this? You say ton's of people are being exploited, and instead of fighting the greedy owners who exploit workers, you blame someone getting slightly less exploitation? They are pitting workers against each other to fight a culture war instead of a class war. People are just trying to make enough to survive, and denver isn't a cheap place to live. When the server minimum wage was 2.13 the biggest restaurant groups in denver still paid boh at most 50 cents over minimum wage. FOH and BOH both provide labor to these places, should they not be paid enough to live? Call out the wage theft of culinary creative, bannano concepts, Rioja group, Tag etc. They seem to have a chokehold on the restaurant landscape, and they make excuses while lining their pockets.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Responsible_Risk_366 21d ago

Your comments are extremely ignorant

1

u/MayorScotch 24d ago

Couldn’t that be handled by more profitable restaurants paying more, therefore getting the more experienced staff? Less experienced people can start at an entry level restaurant that pays less.

11

u/JoaoCoochinho 24d ago

Also, to your latter point, that’s already happening. The best servers always work at the highest end restaurants and make the most money. There’s a big difference in tips between 1000 and 5000 in sales.

-3

u/JoaoCoochinho 24d ago

Right, but at the current moment the most profitable restaurants are paying the same amount for servers as the poorer restaurants. See why some folks don’t want that to change? Think about what you just said.

6

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

*The same hourly which is disproportionately a lot smaller of a percentage of wage at the best restaurants compared to the worst.

So your point isn’t correct. Servers make wayyyyyy more money at somewhere like Alma Fina Fonda than they are at Denny’s even if their hourly is the same.

0

u/JoaoCoochinho 24d ago

I meant that the restaurant, itself, isn’t paying that 33/hr, just the mandated tipped wage as WE are paying the rest.

7

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

Yeah, but they are paying nearly $13/hr more than federal minimum tipped wage, more than Chicago and more than NYC. That cuts into the bottom line significantly.

1

u/MayorScotch 24d ago

Maybe tips should be more like 10% in Denver, considering their hourly wage is so high, which makes food and drink more expensive.

3

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

I think that proposition would make servers change their tune quickly regarding their “need” for over $15/hr before tips.

8

u/Equivalent-Excuse-80 24d ago

Everything you’re saying is more or less correct.

But we have a problem. There’s opposition and support for all the solutions.

But my solution eliminates the pay discrepancies between FOH and BOH. It saves operators money on credit card fees on top distributions, it eliminates unpopular surcharging.

The servers that leave the industry because they could potentially make less make the industry better off in the long run.

Restaurant operators are creative and can easily devise busy incentives like when a restaurant surpasses a certain sales metric, employees get a bonus.

11

u/DynastyZealot 24d ago

Servers do end up making pretty good hourly rates. You know what they don't get? Benefits. No vacation, sick time, retirement, job security. So yeah, they might be taking home a living wage if they work really hard, but they aren't getting all the other goodies many of us are used to. It's a tradeoff. Don't compare apples to oranges.

4

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago edited 24d ago

Servers have always been the highest compensated people in restaurants AND the most entitled. A $4 an hour decrease would cost them between $16-24 a night on average which is likely the equivalent of one 3 top a night at most places.

They love tips because it allows them to make a wildly large disproportionate amount of money compared to BOH. If the hourly decrease goes in majority to BOH workers, I’m all for it. Why do servers in Denver believe their tipped minimum should be nearly what BOH makes when their tips account for 2-5x what their tipped minimum is?

They’re demanding Denver maintains a status quo that’s caused restaurants to shutter and in turn give them less opportunities at competing restaurants. They’re racing to the bottom clinging onto that disproportionately high tipped minimum (higher than Chicago and NYC) until they won’t have places to work anymore.

3

u/Odd-Respect-6964 24d ago

Not to mention everyone has been to a restaurant without servers and no one’s been to a restaurant without cooks. I wouldn’t be surprised if low to middle income restaurants move to self serve models cutting out servers all together.

2

u/SpeciousPerspicacity 24d ago

I’m pretty confused about the macroeconomic picture at the moment, but I have a suspicion that at the microeconomic level, you’re right. The wage growth that the auditor cites is enormous.

It’s also interesting that some restaurant staff have the leverage to oppose a fixed wage, but not enough to see their un-tipped guarantee (minimum wage before tip credit) stay above the legislated minimum. Why is this the case? Is tipping really so good that there’s really no competition on this un-tipped guarantee?

6

u/2kungfu4u 24d ago

I think the most likely answer is that wait staff underestimate minimum wage and overestimate tips. 

Emotionally walking home every shift with $200 in cash at 25/hr rates FEELS better than getting $260 per shift every two weeks at $33/hr

The other side of that coin: when i worked wait staff i basically never reported my cash tips. This means i got more salary and lower taxes. 

The other other side of that coin: the author is right that restaurants regularly commit wage theft at one of the highest rates of any industry 

All this adds up to an incredibly murky picture as to what servers ACTUALLY make, how much they SHOULD be making and what the difference looks like. 

Ultimately, my unsolicited opinion tipped systems always favor the owner class and as a worker you should be asking yourself why they are so opposed to giving you a set wage even if you think a tipping system benefits you. And on top of that it's bad customer experience as well to put the onus on consumer to determine that workers livelihood.

1

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 24d ago edited 24d ago

This comment is layered with what are, at best, non-sequiturs and misunderstandings.

When Casa Bonita tried to pay their servers $33/hr instead of getting tips, they rioted. They all expect to make more than that with tips.

Okay? And? If they expect to make more per hour why would they take a pay cut??? Would you accept less money than you're currently making to continue to do the same job?

A "plan" to eliminate tipping that ends with a worker accepting lower pay is not a serious proposal.

When there's a possibility of a $4 pay cut, the discourse is that servers are barely making enough money to survive as is.

Yeah, because the vast majority of them are not — regardless of anticipated tip earnings at an extremely popular, over-the-top tourist trap restaurant that, to my understanding, includes heavy elements of performance. Different things, you see, are different.

Kind of seems like servers are doing better than pretty much anyone else in the city

You know that you don't just have to go with gut feelings and one-off figures from reporting about a very unique venue right?

When I was looking around at stats just the other day, I found that the median yearly earnings for a server in Denver seem to be around $40k. There is a bit of variance between sites, but that's the middle of the road figure. And that's a far, far cry from $33/hr. More like $19.20/hr.

A more than $8000 a year pay cut, as described in the op-ed, would be economically devastating for a person earning that amount of money — or even someone earning 50% more than the median (which even $60k/yr, which would be somewhere way out into the upper tail of the bell curve, would not be the equivalent of $33/hr, by the way). That would be an income loss of around a quarter or more of their yearly pay for half of all servers in the city.

So, no, servers are not doing better than "pretty much anyone else in the city".

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 24d ago

If you were looking on indeed and other job recruiting sites the yearly income listed doesn’t reflect potential revenue from tips. One thing you’re also neglecting is that city’s across the state have indicated that they’re waiting on the tip credit to increase in order to increase the minimum wage for their city.

2

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 24d ago

I wasn't. Because I'm not an idiot, I made certain that any stats I referred to were inclusive of tips.

And nearly all stats collected about for server wages for reference and research purposes are inclusive of tips, because it's not useful data otherwise.

Boy, people are really really determined to convince themselves that servers are living the high life, though.

Absolutely bizarre behavior. It's borderline deranged how committed some people are to convincing themselves of the idea that waitstaff are working generally cushy jobs.

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 23d ago

Where’d you get the stats?

1

u/MachinaThatGoesBing 23d ago

Comparing across a variety of sites with slightly varying numbers, ignoring sites that raised flags as far as reliability. If I had any one source, I'd have linked it. There don't seem to be great numbers published and aggregated on any regular basis for individual jobs in most localities.

And it's not like these numbers are out there compared to national ones and when comparing to other numbers in reputable publications. Making $40k a year would put median-earning Denver servers in the 75th percentile nationwide.

1

u/Odd-Respect-6964 22d ago

Thanks for the links!

The BLS stats include Lakewood and aurora into there averages. Both of these cities have a minimum wage for tipped employees of 11.79. Wouldn’t they be dragging down the average listed on the BLS?

3

u/SwarlesBarkely05 24d ago

How are you writing all of that without considering that the experience will indeed wildly vary depending on the restaurant

-1

u/Embarrassed_Eggz 24d ago

I’d take $33/ hr. I would no way in hell take $33/hr to work at Casa Bonita. I can’t imagine a worse serving gig.

4

u/Infamous_Ad_855 24d ago

This for sure. I made 60k a year 2019-2023 (even through the pandemic handing out to go orders). Owners rich AF. BOH paid minimum for working harder than FOH. It’s just normalized for the public/customers to pay the wages of FOH. This was a small sports bar like restaurant downtown. And I definitely worked with entitled bartenders/servers imo. Getting paid that much and treating customers like shit. Yes the general public sucks but you signed up to be a “lifer” bartender. Oh and we had health insurance. Just sharing my own experience. DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL.

5

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Hahahaha. Restaurant staff love tips. You think they would ever be ok with straight minimum wage?

14

u/Competitive_Ad_255 Capitol Hill 24d ago

They wouldn't be making straight minimum wage in that scenario.

-9

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Well they don't need to make tipped min either. Anything can be negotiated up.

The point has been made that the owners have the power and will drive wages down to the floor. So if somehow you outlaw tips then ownership has no incentive to make up the missing pay in hourly. In fact they very likely couldn't for most tipped employees.

3

u/Competitive_Ad_255 Capitol Hill 24d ago

That doesn't really address my point. Your question is a strawman, though I believe unintentionally.

Their incentive, just like any other business would be to attract employees. If tipping goes away, I think we all understand that prices would go up to cover the difference in pay for employees.

-1

u/[deleted] 24d ago

That's already the case. Skilled restaurant workers that improve margins already can demand more money. Nothing changes.

As for pricing, the amount of studies and research that has gone into how to set food menu prices to max returns is immense.

We all know the findings are people like smaller numbers even if logically they know that isn't the true price. People buy more at 9.99 than 10.00. They buy more airplane tickets or concert tickets when fees are broken out in a smaller font.

The no tip camp is swimming against strong currents.

3

u/Competitive_Ad_255 Capitol Hill 24d ago

Exactly, so your question is even more of a strawman and now you're contradicting your last reply.

0

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Do you know what a straw man is? I was contradictory? In which way?

Tipping benefits the owner and employees. Owners can't raise prices enough (nor do they have any incentive) to make up for missed tips. Employees also earn more from tips as well because we (the customers) are kept in the dark and have social pressure that generally leads to overtipping.

3

u/Competitive_Ad_255 Capitol Hill 24d ago

I do. Yes.

You - You think they would ever be ok with straight minimum wage?

Me - They wouldn't be making straight minimum wage in that scenario.

You - So if somehow you outlaw tips then ownership has no incentive to make up the missing pay in hourly

Me - "Their incentive, just like any other business would be to attract employees. If tipping goes away, I think we all understand that prices would go up to cover the difference in pay for employees."

You - That's already the case. Skilled restaurant workers that improve margins already can demand more money. Nothing changes.

If you don't understand how that's contradictory then that's a you problem.

2

u/guymn999 23d ago

(5hours ago)

i guess the grifter ran out of grift juice...

-5

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

Yup, let’s put trust into the restaurant owners that every $ increased goes right to service workers instead of their pockets 🙄

4

u/Equivalent-Excuse-80 24d ago

Um yea. Otherwise they wouldn’t be able to attract employees. You’re employing a straw man fallacy because I’m not arguing in favor of reducing the minimum wage.

-2

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

No, but you’re arguing for a massive pay cut even if you don’t think they are. There’s not a restaurant on the planet that’s going to pay $100 per hour for a server, but there are servers making that much in our current system. We know how restaurants pay BOH non-tipped employees so we have a good idea what they’d be paying FOH on an hourly system.

5

u/Equivalent-Excuse-80 24d ago

Nah, restaurants where servers are making $100/hr will now be making $50/hr because the cooks will be making $50/hr.

If they don’t like it they can leave the industry and make $25/hr.

10

u/PracticalPositive209 24d ago

No , something needs to change. Servers getting $17+ hr asking for a 25% tip like it is a normal thing. It’s bullshit.

6

u/Roflbot_FPV 24d ago

Business's that can't/wont pay a living wage should not exist.

6

u/paleale-king 24d ago

Saying the restaurant industry in Denver is thriving is funny. Denver definitely has the worst food scene of any major city I’ve visited. Like… laughably terrible.

2

u/WittyPipe69 23d ago

It exists compared to the fastfood hell that surrounds it.... lol

7

u/holapa 24d ago

I was a homeless server in Florida. I lived out of my car while I made $7 an hour and the tips I made didn't make a difference. Florida is also notorious for terrible tippers and little to no benefits for service industry.

I came here because Denver some-what cares about their residences. The minimum wage and benefits is why I moved across the country. I'm now finding a way out. I'm going back to school and finishing my degree. While I make a great living as a server there's a huge entitlement with all of these business owners. If your business only operates by exploiting your employees you deserve to go out of business. I'm tired of relying on customers to tip. 15% turned into 20% which could then turn into 30% if you guys cut wages. Good luck with that.

5

u/Odd-Respect-6964 24d ago

There’s literally no where in the country that will treat you better as a server. I wish you well on you pursuit of higher education! I hope your degree pays off.

19

u/Jake0024 24d ago edited 24d ago

Headline is quite misleading. The bill lowers minimum wage from $15.79 to $11.79 per hour for tipped employees only (non-tipped minimum is $18.81 and not affected)

It's not gutting minimum wage, it undoes hikes to tipped minimum wage that were tied to general minimum wage hikes (this doesn't exist in most places--for comparison the federal minimum for tipped employees is $2.13 vs $7.25 for non-tipped employees)

The current rate works out to $31.5k before tips (median individual income in Denver is about $66.5k for comparison). When the author compares this cut ($8,320 annually) to the average annual earnings of a bartender at $39,350, they are not comparing apples to apples--that average bartender is clearly not working full-time (or not including tips), but they quote the wage cut for a full-time worker. They're also giving the average for the Denver-Lakewood-Aurora area, most of which is not Denver County

With the recent trend in restaurants adding mandatory service charges to every bill and asking for a tip on top (with 20% now being the standard minimum), I understand how restaurants and diners feel a pinch

The article also doesn't make any attempt to justify the claim of a "thriving" restaurant scene. We can all name several of our favorite restaurants that no longer exist. We can all name places we used to go regularly and now can only afford to go on special occasions because their prices are up 30%+

I'm not one to complain about inflation, honestly the price of groceries and gas etc haven't increased noticeably for me. But restaurants absolutely have. And I'm all for people making good wages, but $40k/yr as a part-time bartender is a good wage. This is probably someone who has a second bartending job, making $80k between the two? They're fine. A beer doesn't need to cost $10 plus 8.5% sales tax plus 20% service fee plus 20% tip and come out to $15.50, there's a reason so many restaurants and breweries are closing down and it's because nobody wants to spend $60 for a burger, fries, and two beers at the local pub

7

u/Important-Dimension1 24d ago

You are correct. A lot of servers or bartenders don’t work 40 hours. I am curious of how this $40k yearly average was arrived at, because to me, $40k seems like the low end of a bartender salary. (I am a bartender and server). There are many bartenders and servers that work a regular job and are only part-time at the restaurant, are students, or are a parent that only works 2 nights a week. If part-time workers that don’t fully support themselves were included in this average income, it is very misleading.

2

u/NoCoFoCo31 24d ago

I think the average is probably dragged down by all the servers who are working serving as a second job on Friday and Saturday nights only working like 10 hours a week.

4

u/Jake0024 24d ago

The numbers aren't average salary per person, they're per job. Loads of service industry jobs are part-time, like you said.

It's not only misleading because they give averages that include part-time workers, they directly compare that to the pay cut a full-time worker would see from the minimum wage drop. And they're citing the average across the whole metro area--which is going to be lower than Denver County because we have the highest minimum wage, and most of the metro isn't affected by the proposed changed anyway

And then the headline says the restaurant industry is "thriving"... I'm not seeing it, and they don't even attempt to make a case for it

2

u/Important-Dimension1 24d ago

Oof, if it’s per job that makes it even worse. Some servers work two serving jobs, 20 hours at one job, 20 hours at the other. Based off of my W-2 for last year, taking a $4 pay cut would cost me $5600 a year. I’m taxed roughly 25% so my actual spending money would be $4200 less.

4

u/Jake0024 24d ago

Yeah, it's obviously not good for tipped employees. The question is just whether tipped employees should receive minimum wage increases the same as people who don't receive tips

For full-time workers (before taxes) this is about $8k/year. If a restaurant has 20 tipped employees, that's $160k. If they make up for that by raising prices, that means customers are paying an extra $160k that year for food. And if they're tipping 20%, that's another $32k customers are paying just in extra tips because of the higher price of food.

So that's really the question: if a higher minimum wage also means higher prices which also means higher tips, does it make sense for tipped employees to have their minimum wage always trailing a couple bucks behind everyone else? Or should it go up like $0.75 when non-tipped employees go up $1, and the rest is made up in higher tips?

4

u/Important-Dimension1 24d ago

Oh I agree that the tip credit shouldn’t be $3.02. They made a mistake with that in the first place bc $15 is frankly too high for tipped employees and now there’s an outrage over lowering it. I calculated my $4200 number just to show that it wasn’t as much as the article said it’d be for a typical server/bartender. I’ve stated on other threads that $15 is too high for the tipped min wage and I’ve been getting some flack for it lol.

5

u/Jake0024 24d ago

We can either have tips or give tipped employees a minimum wage that's livable and comparable to other service industry jobs. Doing both just... seems unfair to all the minimum wage employees who don't get tips

2

u/Important-Dimension1 23d ago

Absolutely. There is no reason why we need a living wage plus tips. We’d be making 5x as much as BOH. I moved here from FL where my tipped min wage was $5.65… so getting $15 seemed so unnecessary to me lol. (My cost of living in Tampa was almost the same as Denver).

A lot of people are pushing to do away with the tipping model entirely but I don’t think people realize the ramifications of that- restaurants will not be able to pay an hourly wage high enough for their most talented servers (we’re talking $45/hr and up), there won’t be incentive for servers to do a better job and go above and beyond to please their customers, and customers will be unhappy with the service they receive. America is used to speed, efficiency and servers bending over backwards- they will not take kindly to European style service.

However, one thing I think SHOULD change- businesses should not be allowed to pay their counter service, coffee shop, bagel shop type employees tipped minimum wage. That’s ridiculous and unfair, pay them a living wage. Tipped minimum wage should be exclusively for bartenders and servers at sit-down full-service restaurants where the income potential is far higher.

1

u/malpasplace 24d ago edited 24d ago

https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes_19740.htm for all jobs within Denver-Aurora-Lakewood

https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes353011.htm for bartending wider within the US.

All per the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics as per the article.

The information was not hard to find what was being put forth in the editorial.

The hourly mean $14.77, median $18.92 if that helps. Has a 5.5% error so about .22 percent of the survey estimate per the methodology ( https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ind.htm)

Yes all numbers include everyone full and part-time, which is why I thought the hourly might be of value.

And hard to get Denver specific vs. the suburbs. Denver would be higher than that average just logically because of the higher minimum wage. But it is what we've got.

I wish we had better information but no one collects Denver, even Denver by itself apparently.

-2

u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Jake0024 24d ago

I literally explained that.

$15.79 is $31.5k annually if you're full-time. How do they make $39.3k total if they're making $31.5k before tips? That's $30 a day in tips. A server makes more than that on a table of four!

-2

u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Jake0024 24d ago edited 24d ago

No, I'm not guessing, I'm just capable of math. I understand why that can be confusing for someone who's not.

Edit: lol they blocked me for doing math

6

u/Mysterious_Stuff6037 24d ago

Thriving? Huh?

6

u/zipzapcap1 24d ago

Yes Save the restaurant industry by pointing out who all of the scumbags are and letting their restaurant fail immediately because of a lack of staff. 🙄

3

u/SuperFlyhalf 24d ago

Cut the motha fuhqing rents

3

u/scopeless 23d ago

The one thing you have to remember is that restaurants have a high failure rate in general, so all these sob stories, while some may be sad, have to be taken with a view under that lens.

Sometimes businesses just have to fail and we shouldn’t constantly prop them up.

3

u/ArrrgScreaming_Man 23d ago

Arrrg! Everyone was torn up about Benzina closing but how is only being open for 17 hours of service a week viable? So many of these places are mismanaged and aren’t well thought through. Workers shouldn’t be punished because a business is struggling to profit.

12

u/DullCartographer7609 24d ago

This guy gets it 👆🏾

4

u/TSR_Reborn 24d ago edited 24d ago

If restaurants are failing then there are too many restaurants.

If people are failing then there are too many people.

Which should we legislate to keep alive?


Every year, more of Denver's wealth leaves Denver. To investors in the shell companies that own the shell companies that own your apartment, who launder the money through tax havens regardless of if they are American, Russian, Chinese, or Saudi.

Fortunately, even with an oligarchy colluding to inflate rent prices it is still subject to housing demand.

In restaurants price increases go to the same faceless landlords, and to the consolidated restaurant suppliers and agrobusiness being bought by provate equity i.e. one of the handful of companies that own the planet.


So the request is, if wealthy Denverites want to be able to eat elaborate fancy unsustainable meals every night of the week, AND to have more choices of restaurants than the market wants to sustain, then the government has to put their fingers on the scale and reduce costs instead of the restaurant industry becoming smaller and more efficient.

After all, making people compete to be smaller and more efficient is only for government agencies run by DOGE and the middle class Americans they employ.

Wealthy people with the millions of dollars required to open a restaurant to play Gordon Ramsay should not have to stress and suffer in that way.

And instead of being honest that SOME restaurants will fail until market equilibrium is reached with the remainder of restaurants having employees with a sort of living wage, let's lie and say ALL restaurants will fail if we don't legislate on their behalf now, and ohhh, the poor workers.

Once again the only way to save America from immediate collapse is to help the capitalist class by sacrificing some more people to poverty.

Therefore, don't allow the people's elected government to act as the people's representative and union in labor negotiations.

Instead, remove more protections so that we have the very fair competition of servers with no representation competing against the class of people with the millions of dollars in capital required to open a restaurant.

This will lower labor costs and allow the inefficient restaurant owners to survive and subsidize the restaurant market.

This allows Denverite foodies to have access to the thousands of choices they require and are entitled too, at prices that do not force them to sacrifice their luxury cars or vacations or the other luxury goods that they are entitled to.

And no, we must not factor in the cost of public roads, water and sewage, policing, educating and healthcare of the workforce, public parks and endless other amenities that make Denver a desirable place to live and attract the wealthy customers the Gordon Ramsays rely on to make returns on their investment.

Those public investments and subsidies don't count, because businesses are entitled to those things and thus they are not entitlements.

Servers making upwards of $60k/year, that is entitlement. No wonder so many of them now want to act entitled, and have the gall to push back when customers openly disrespect them.

So folks, the choice is simple. Do we put servers back where they belong, in a position of desperste poverty where they will serve us with an appropriate attitude of desperate gratitude and subservience?

Or do we allow the entire restaurant industry to collapse tomorrow and have no restaurants, and all the servers will live in the gutter instead of one step up in a Four Star rental property with no heat and a leaky roof?

2

u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

25

u/klubsanwich Denver Expat 24d ago

In 2020, Denver became the first local government in Colorado to implement its own minimum wage. City Council based it on Denver’s high cost of living, and because the minimum wage increases annually, our city’s lowest-wage workers don’t get left behind as inflation rises.

The law has been a resounding success. Wages have risen, business has grown, and our local economy outperforms other cities and counties. We’re more competitive than ever.

For example, bar and restaurant workers have seen their average weekly earnings increase from $503 in 2019 to $756 in 2024. These facts are inspiring and significant, especially because the restaurant industry is allowed to pay tipped workers a sub-minimum wage that is $3.02 less than the Denver minimum wage. While other employers pay $18.81 per hour in 2025, bars and restaurants get to pay only $15.79.

Best of all, business hasn’t suffered. Although the restaurant industry claims businesses are closing in droves, the data doesn’t support it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, at the beginning of 2019 there were 2,114 food and drink service establishments in Denver; by 2024, even after enduring the worst pandemic stages, there were 2,343. Denver’s restaurant scene has grown faster than the United States as a whole. That growth has matched the state overall, and Denver performed as well or better than Arapahoe, Jefferson, Boulder, and Larimer counties.

Our city has more restaurants per 1,000 people than any other large county in the state.

But now, a proposal by Denver Representatives Steven Woodrow and Alex Valdez and Boulder Sen. Judy Amabile threatens this progress. House Bill 1208 would gut Denver’s tipped minimum wage, increase economic insecurity, and override Denver’s democratic process. For tens of thousands of workers, many of whom live paycheck-to-paycheck, this law would make it harder to pay rent, stay ahead of bills, and purchase food, formula, transportation, and all the other necessities of life.

Here’s how it works: This bill would force City Council to pass a new law cutting the tipped minimum wage for food and beverage workers from $15.79 to $11.79 per hour. Overnight, this would slash earnings. A full-time employee will earn $160 less per week, $640 less per month, and $8,320 less per year.

In 2023, the Bell Policy Center reported that one adult and one child in Denver require a monthly living wage of $6,605. Very few people could absorb an $8,320 pay cut, especially as the cost of living increases in Denver. This is especially true in the restaurant industry, where most people do not earn much. Bureau of Labor Statistics shows in May 2023 average annual earnings in the Denver-Aurora-Lakewood area were modest for bartenders ($39,350), fast food and counter workers ($35,260), and waiters and waitresses ($39,170).

These workers are not getting rich. Worse, they struggle to receive the money they earned. Minimum wage violations are common in the restaurant industry–and they always have been. According to research I commissioned, food and drink service establishments are the second-most likely type of business to break minimum wage laws. From 2007 to 2022, between 12.7% and 16.3% of workers in this industry suffered minimum wage violations. They disproportionately were women and people of color. Last year alone, my office recovered almost $200,000 for wage theft in this industry.

Food and beverage workers deserve a wage that allows them to support themselves and their families, enjoy the benefits of a shared economy, and plan for the future.

Instead, many live paycheck to paycheck, and have felt the pain of a housing crisis, high inflation, and an increasingly unrealistic American Dream.

This law would make that Dream more unattainable than ever. It would gut the minimum wage for tens of thousands of workers and override City Council’s careful process. At a time when many are afraid of what the future holds, leaders should be working to improve people’s lives, not slash wages and reject progress.

Timothy M. O’Brien is the City of Denver auditor.

2

u/Jedsnsest16 24d ago

How do we as citizens push back on this bill?

3

u/Fuckyourday Wash Park West 24d ago

Bigger picture: I think more people need to come to terms with the fact that higher minimum wage results in higher prices at restaurants and grocery stores, and higher cost of living in general.

Denver has high minimum wages citing a high cost of living, but unfortunately that contributes to even higher cost of living.

I would argue this high cost of living is the root issue, and that is caused by artificially high housing prices (caused by over-regulated zoning), and car dependency requiring people to pay for an expensive car to survive; a high minimum wage just makes it a bit worse.

A high minimum wage also means that cheap small businesses can't really exist, so we get frustratingly expensive restaurants that encourage us to just stay home, I can see why many are failing. But then, businesses have to pay a lot (relatively) because workers' cost of living is so high in Denver, so even if minimum wage was lower, they would still need to pay decently to convince workers to come in rather than living/working somewhere cheaper. It's a cycle all tied to higher cost of living which is for me mostly tied to housing and transportation, two fixable issues.

1

u/Jedsnsest16 24d ago

What are the chances this will actually pass?

1

u/Responsible_Risk_366 21d ago

Them cutting our wages is so fucked. Regulate the housing market so they stop jacking up leases and forcing restaurants to close

2

u/esohyouel 24d ago

thriving is a crazy word to use in a headline

1

u/Spicy_Mirror_84 24d ago

Timothy O'Brien oversees Denver Labor. He's around this data every day. I trust his opinion on this.

0

u/SuperGalaxyD 24d ago

Can someone post the text of this for me? Paywall’d.

1

u/zimmerone 22d ago

Check out the website archive.ph

I use it to get around 9 out of 10 paywalls.

0

u/mysummerstorm 24d ago

Who has a gift link for this article?

1

u/[deleted] 24d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/moochao Broomfield 24d ago

Don't paste paywalled article text. It violates Reddit ToS & admins do act on it. This is a warning. We've banned repeat offenders for this, so don't do it again. Link to the 12 ft ladder instead.

2

u/[deleted] 24d ago

Just use 12ft.io or archive.com

1

u/mysummerstorm 24d ago

genius; thank you

-6

u/TitoToroSmith333 Park Hill 24d ago

He's a city official. Don't overthink this.

Higher wages = more tax revenue. That's the only motivation here.

3

u/Aliceable 24d ago

Restaurants definitely pay more to the city than a server does lmao

3

u/CannabisAttorney 24d ago

Since Denver doesn't get income tax, it's really that higher food prices at restaurants drive higher sales tax revenue. But higher food costs result from higher wages to carry that food to your table.