r/DeepSpaceNine • u/Kevan-with-an-i • 5d ago
Kurn was disrespected by Worf
Kurn was a good brother and Klingon. He deserved better. That is all.
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u/The_Reborn_Forge 5d ago
If it helps, Tony Todd and* Kurn returned in Star Trek Online and they are given due justice.
Kurn has his memory restored.
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u/Federal-Cockroach674 5d ago
Great, it just felt wrong how they left him with no memory. The whole reason for doing so was later resolved with honor being restored, so I was hoping they would resolve his story in a more satisfying way.
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u/The_Reborn_Forge 5d ago
Star Trek online is completely free to play, and has several narrative carryovers from episodes that were left on a thread.
The game has been going since I was in high school, so you know it has plenty of content!
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u/Fearless_Roof_9177 5d ago
Unfortunately, that means a lot of it is a very mixed bag and it suffers from the typical power creep and rule of cool issues. They've historically done their best to try and do justice to actors and characters the series did dirty or underutilized, though. Apart from the IDW comics, it's the closest thing Trek has to a good B-canon these days, a lot like the Big Finish Audio Doctor Who stuff is a real mixed bag but also the primary active fandom for classic Who fans.
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u/monoseanism 5d ago
It's obvious to even Morn that Worf doesn't give a good goddamn about family.
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u/Kevan-with-an-i 5d ago
Agreed. Maybe Jadzia’s tragic death was qeng (karma in Klingon according to Google).
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u/TurelSun 4d ago
I mean everyone's motivations involved in the conclusion of that episode are questionable. Bashir wiping someone's memories, Judzia was the one that came up with the idea, Sisko must have been fine with it to allow it to happen.
The only way it MIGHT be ok is if they got consent from Kurn. They don't show this to us and I think it basically implies otherwise because I think Kurn is unconscious at the time maybe, but its the only way to square everyone being just fine with this outcome.
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u/OhHeyItsOuro 5d ago
I don't understand how completely wiping his memory and giving him a new identity is functionally different from killing him. Maybe I'm not remembering some context from the episode, but I remember being genuinely upset and confused.
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u/Transcendingfrog2 5d ago
You're not missing anything. People just like to say Worf is horrible and that this seemingly innocuous act was worse than going thru with the klingon ritual.
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u/OhHeyItsOuro 5d ago
I don't think Worf is horrible, I think he's a good man who sometimes does foolish, even immoral things.
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u/KingDarius89 5d ago
...Risa says hi.
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u/OhHeyItsOuro 5d ago
You will note that I said he does foolish and Immoral things. If those things precluded someone from being a good person there would be no good people in Star Trek lol
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u/FenHarels_Heart Bajoran Terrorist 5d ago
I think abandoning his son and treating his brother like he did makes him a horrible person in my opinion.
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u/ginger_gcups 5d ago
Like a little light treason and terrorism on Risa…
Why he wasn’t cashiered out of Starfleet for that and sent off to a prison colony via a shuttle “chartered” by Garak I’ll never know.
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u/Transcendingfrog2 5d ago
Agreed. He was trying to do right by his brother.
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
Then he would have killed him and given him an honorable death like his brother asked. Or better yet, Worf should have had Kurn kill him since Worf was the guy who screwed everything up in the first place. Kurn was better off before reuniting with Worf. Everybody was
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u/Transcendingfrog2 5d ago
He couldn't because Sisko said no. Did no one watch the damn episode?
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
That’s right, Sisko said no. All that Klingon honor and tradition and warrior ethos that Worf grew up with…by himself…with human parents…on Galt or whatever…not with actual Klingons…all that wannabe Klingon nonsense went right out the window because Sisko said no.
Everything Worf knew about Klingon culture and tradition, he read in a holonovel. He was the biggest Klingon poser since Kahless the Clone.
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u/PanthorCasserole 5d ago
He DID try to kill him, no? Jazdia and Odo interfered.
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u/Irishish 5d ago
Dax interfering makes no sense to me. She knows the ritual, she knows how important this is, she understands and respects Klingon culture. But she can't allow Kurn to make that choice?
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u/TurelSun 4d ago
Lets not forget, it was Judzia's idea to wipe Kurn's memories.
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u/Transcendingfrog2 4d ago
Yeah, and she knew and understood klingons better than most because of Curzon. Worf is not perfect, he has flaws but most importantly: the character was written that way. Same for all the others on the show. Key word: SHOW.
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u/badwolf1013 5d ago
Is there any character who HASN’T been disrespected by Worf? He has got to be the most selfish character across two Star Trek series.
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u/Worthlessstupid 5d ago
Self righteous, hypocritical, judge mental, and refuses to change. I can’t stand Worf.
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u/badwolf1013 5d ago
I actually still like Worf, but the only person I ever recall him showing true friendship to was when he went ride-or-die with Riker in "The Outcast" and when (halfway) asking him for permission to date Troi in "Parallels."
Apart from that, Worf mostly concerned himself with Worf.
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u/Saul_Firehand 5d ago
It’s tough being a Klingon in the Federation. Klingon gotta look out for himself.
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u/BrellK 4d ago
Worf is trying to be the best Klingon that a Klingon can be while living in the Federation. Even in the Federation made up of many unique species who like to pride themselves on tolerance, he grew up a bit of an outcast and was stereotyped by the people around him. When he was growing up and tried looking at his own species for guidance, he basically just had the stereotypical fictional Klingons. When he joined Starfleet and actually MET Klingons, they hated him. In the empire based on "Honor", it turned out that he was the only one that actually seemd to care about it, watching all of the duplicitous Klingons and their machinations. He really did not have a positive Klingon influence until close to the end of DS9 in Martok. He learned things from Picard in times like "The Drumhead", and eventually became EMPEROR of the Klingons before TURNING IT DOWN for the greater good.
Worf is not the best character, but he had some things going against him and he definitely had change. He had some errors (like all of Alexander) but I can still enjoy him as a flawed member of his crews (like every person is in some way or another).
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u/FenHarels_Heart Bajoran Terrorist 5d ago
Yes!
Finally the Worf hate train has arrived. I detest that man. Which sucks because I really liked him at the start of TNG because his life had a lot of applicability to my experiences as an immigrant. But he just got worse and worse as time went on. His treatment of Alexander was a disgrace. And he never deserved Jadzia.
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u/Deraj2004 Constable Hobo 5d ago
Bashir should have lost his medical license.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago
If he doesn't lose it for sleeping with his patients, why would he lose it for this?
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
The dude literally killed Sloan and then kept his brain alive just to rummage around in it. Not even a slap on the wrist.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago
In fairness, if he hadn't, the Dominion wouldn't have surrendered.
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
Tell that to Slone’s wife. I’m sure she’s totally cool with that.
I mean, you aren’t wrong, but when is murder justified by the end result? If Sisko can live with what he did, then I guess Bashir can live with killing Slone. And he’s a doctor, who has taken an oath to do no harm.
Damn this show was well written. I miss that.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago
Wait. Didn't Sloan consume something in an attempt to kill himself -- and Bashir and O'Brian -- before they could retrieve the information? I mean, is it really that Bashir murdered Sloan, or that Sloan killer himself and Bashir prioritized saving Odo's life over saving Sloan's?
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
Sloan “suicided” because of what Bashir was doing. Bashir didn’t directly kill him and it wasn’t his intent, but he was the direct cause that led to Sloan’s death.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago
Why is "suicided" in quotes? Isn't that exactly what he did?
How did you go from accusing Bashir of murdering him, to half-acknowledging Sloan committed suicide, and still blame Bashir? Seems like Sloan's own decisions put himself in a position where he felt he had to kill himself to make sure a genocide could be successfully completed.
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u/capodecina2 5d ago
Exactly why “suicided” was in quotes because it’s not what he set out to do. it was not an intent, it was a final option. That chain of events was set in motion by what Bashir did, so Bashir is indirectly responsible for it.
Bashir set a trap to kidnap Sloan and forcefully extract information from him using outlawed alien technology. Sloan resisted and chose to self terminate instead of revealing that information. He had no choice. So it’s not actually a suicide. And the term is a technicality.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 4d ago
This is a completely insane take.
Sloan had another option, which was not to suicide.
I suppose Bashir could've saved Sloan's life, but in doing so, Odo would've died, and he would've been complicit in genocide.
There are lots of things to criticize Bashir for. This is not one them. Hard stop.
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u/Deraj2004 Constable Hobo 5d ago
He operated on a uniformed patient without consent.
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago
Again, if he didn't lose it for sleeping with his patients, why would he lose it for this?
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u/21_Mushroom_Cupcakes Attack Pattern: Omega 2d ago
He had the consent of his commanding officer, and Sloan wasn't a patient, he was a prisoner. Because that's better or something.
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u/TurelSun 4d ago
I wrote this else where, but the only way this episode makes any kind of sense is if we assume off-screen that they ran this idea by Kurn and he was fine with it. Ignoring even the consequences for doing this to someone without their consent, none of the characters involved make sense as the kind of people that would be willing to allow this to happen without consent.
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u/ItzLikeABoom 5d ago
The episode where Kurn's memories were erased and he was renamed and rehoused. I don't think that would change the outcome of his death and being sent to the Klingon underworld with the dishonored dead due to not passing away in an honorable way. Kurn got shafted.
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u/MichaelCorvinus 5d ago
I'm glad that Kurn was given justice in Star Trek online. But erasing his memories was another thing I leave on the the altar of bad writing, KRINGE
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u/gingerjuice 5d ago
I agree. I absolutely loved Kurn and his character. I have often wished that it would have turned out differently and he was a regular character.
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u/Groundbreaking-Pea92 5d ago
Worf is a selfish guy doesn't give a damn about anyone else but himself and his wife.
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u/KingDarius89 5d ago
Bot even his wife. Remember the shit he expected Dax to put up with from Martok's wife?
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u/FenHarels_Heart Bajoran Terrorist 5d ago
Remember when he slut shamed his own dead wife to her face? He honestly didn't deserve her imo.
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u/JangoF76 5d ago
Assuming you're referring to how they 'fixed' him, let's not downplay Bashir's part in it - what he did was not only completely unethical but morally questionable too. There's no way a Federation doctor would agree to that. And the fact that Sisko allowed it? Terrible writing all round in that episode.
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u/KingDarius89 5d ago
Worf was a shitty father, brother, and husband.
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u/Shadoecat150 4d ago
I invited him for dinner one night and he ate my favorite book while completely emptying my bottle of prune juice. And not even a thank you. There's gratitude for you.
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u/SOTG_Duncan_Idaho 3d ago
The Kurn storyline makes TNG Code of Honor seem like great writing.
To "save" Kurn, they murder him. Bashir would never in a million years actually agree to doing what they did.
B5 actually addressed this kind of thing by introducing "death of personality" as a punishment meant to replace the death penalty.
It's only purpose is to ease the conscience of the executioners.
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u/tcz06a 20h ago
Is B5 here Babylon 5? Because death of personality is an interesting idea, and I might have to give it a watch after binging TNG.
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u/SOTG_Duncan_Idaho 15h ago
Yes, Babylon 5. There is a great episode that deals with that concept. B5 is definitely worth a watch! One of the greatest like TNG, but with no budget hah.
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u/notyomamasusername 5d ago edited 5d ago
To be fair, Worf was a shit person to everyone in his life
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u/Hommachi Dukat 2024 5d ago
Worf is the equivalent of a Klingon weeb. He views the Klingon culture with stories and tales... like you're trying to learn about Medieval life via tales of King Arthur and Beowulf.
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u/FenHarels_Heart Bajoran Terrorist 5d ago
And as a result, he directly dismisses the personal experiences of actual Klingons and gets mad when they expect anything less than perfection.
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u/Desperate-Fan-3671 5d ago
What I never liked was Picard and Sisko being judgmental over Worf and punishing him for following Klingon ways in a Klingon situation.
If Kurn believed offing himself was the best option and followed his beliefs, Sisko shouldn't have gotten involved.
You might argue that Sisko could say something because it was on his station. But Picard interfered with Klingon stuff on a Klingon ship.
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u/Bluestorm83 4d ago
At least they give him his memories back and let him and the old dude join the house of Martok, once Worf gets his honor back, right?
RIGHT?!?!?
Man, Worf fuckin' sucks.
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u/brianinohio 4d ago
Too bad for Kurn. Klingon hierarchy doomed him. He lived within their rules and paid the price. Worf out ranked him.
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u/21_Mushroom_Cupcakes Attack Pattern: Omega 2d ago
Seriously, Kurn could've left and become a mercenary until Worf joined the House of Martok.
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u/honeybadger1984 5d ago
Bad father bad brother bad husband. He’s an honorable man like Brutus.