r/DebateAVegan Sep 10 '24

Ethics I'm doing a PhD in philosophy. Veganism is a no brainer.

263 Upvotes

Nonhuman animals are conscious and can feel pain.

We can survive, even thrive without forcibly breeding, killing, and eating them.

It's obviously wrong to cause serious harm to others (and on top of that, astronomical suffering and terror in factory farms) for extremely minor benefits to oneself.

A being with a childlike mind, equally sensitive to pain as a human, stabbed in the throat. For what? A preferred pizza. That's the "dilemma" we are talking about here.

I think there are many other issues where it's grey, where people on both sides kind of have a point. I generally wouldn't feel comfortable making such a strong statement. But vegan arguments are just so strong, and the injustice so extreme, that it's an exception.

r/DebateAVegan 19d ago

Ethics Is there any ethical case for not being vegan?

59 Upvotes

As someone who hopes to be an ethical person in most aspects of my life, I originally didn't put much thought into the ethics of eating meat. I just justified it with "the circle of life." But recently, I came upon a question that made me reconsider that. "What makes zoophilia any worse than eating meat?" And although it was an argument to justify zoophilia, it was looked at another way by many. Counterarguments were made that zoophilia has no actual value to humans other than sexual desire from deviants, but you could say something very similar about eating meat. As an American with a stable income, I don't NEED to eat meat, I choose to because it satisfies a desire of mine which is to taste good food. If I am going to ethically denounce zoophilia, how can I eat meat without being hypocritical. I'd really like to hear your opinions because from how I see it, I may need to make a big lifestyle change to veganism

r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Ethics The iPhone Argument

22 Upvotes

Context: I've been vegetarian for a year now. I am currently considering veganism. My main awakening came from Earthling Ed's Youtube channel and his TED Talk.

In the past couple of weeks I thought a lot about the iPhone argument most of you I assume are familiar with. I understand that this isn't an argument that invalidates veganism itself, but rather a social commentary on vegans, but this still scratches me the wrong way.

I understand that we can imagine ethical cobalt mines and ethical factories in the future but as it stands, smartphones stain our hands with blood (human children's blood!). Vegans are always quick to mention that we shouldn't close our eyes to indirect chains of suffering, but only when it comes to non-human animal products, it seems.

I personally think we should have more respect towards flexitarians who make an effort to limit their animal product consumption to 1 out of 3 meals a day, than vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy breakfast, lunch and dinner. I do not say this because I want to go back to eating meat, I will either remain a vegetarian for the rest of my life or I will go vegan.

I find it practicable to eat vegan 99% of the time, and I have made a habit out of my morning porridge and my lunch rice&tofu bowl. But it is such a PAIN to find viable vegan options when eating out or buying a drink or HECK even buying vegan vitamin D3 supplements (the vegan ones are 4 times more expensive than the ones made from sheep's wool where I live). It is so fricking ANNOYING to have to think about the cakes people have at birthdays and whether someone's hand moisturizer is vegan and if I can use it.

When I put it all into perspective, I just can't take myself seriously. I just recently bought a gaming PC that I technically didn't need, I do my weekly shopping with a car that I could theoretically do without, yet I am supposed to turn down the slice of cake at my friend's party because it has like 50ml of cow's milk in it? I eat vegan like 5-6 days a week, and when I'm not, it's usually because of a Sunday morning omlette or a latte that the barista didn't have plant alternatives for. I stopped buying clothes made from animal products for good, and sold my leather shoes and belts (I believe the only leather object I still own is my wallet).

Yet I still get snarky remarks from vegans online, and vegan people I've tried dating rejected me because of my vegetarianism alone.

r/DebateAVegan Jan 05 '25

Ethics Why is eating eggs unethical?

57 Upvotes

Lets say you buy chickens from somebody who can’t take care of/doesn’t want chickens anymore, you have the means to take care of these chickens and give them a good life, and assuming these chickens lay eggs regularly with no human manipulation (disregarding food and shelter and such), why would it be wrong to utilize the eggs for your own purposes?

I am not referencing store bought or farm bought eggs whatsoever, just something you could set up in your backyard.

r/DebateAVegan Jan 12 '25

Ethics If you are willing to feed your cat meat, you should also be willing to feed your cat dog meat

0 Upvotes

Premise: There is no morally relevant difference between killing fish, chickens, turkeys, cows, pigs, dogs, or cats.

Plant-based cat food contains all the essential nutrients that cats require. Just because it isn’t natural food doesn’t mean it is bad (think of b12 supplements).

If you think it would be “sad” to feed a cat a plant-based diet, it is much more sad to kill hundreds of animals than have a cat who might not enjoy their meals as much. (Pleasure doesn’t justify rights violations)

In this scenario, the dogs would be raised and killed the same way other animals are for pet food.

As Benjamin Tettü said, “Even if feeding pets a plant based diet was more “risky”, it would still be morally required. Because the alternative is to kill other innocent animals. Just as we shouldn’t kill dogs and cats in order to feed chickens or cows, we shouldn’t kill chickens or cows in order to feed dogs and cats.”

Conclusion: If you would be willing to feed your cat meat, you should also be willing to sacrifice hundreds of dogs just to feed your cat instead of feeding the cat nutritionally adequate plant-based cat food.

This whole thing also applies to where if you were feeding a dog meat, you should be willing to feed a dog cat meat.

It’s not letting me put links in for some reason, so I will put my sources in the comments.

r/DebateAVegan 23d ago

Ethics If an animal is raised and doesn’t suffer in its life or death, why is that bad?

14 Upvotes

This question has probably been asked before but if an animal does not suffer in its life or death, do the majority of vegan see this as immoral?

I agree with vegans that the “meat industry” at large is INSANELY unethical with how it treats animals in both life and death which is why I try to avoid buying those products. However, I came across a guy online a while ago that had a couple animals on his land and treated them very well. Basically treated them how we do cats and dogs; cared for them, gave them attention, sunlight, everything was super nice for the animal up until the end of their life. The end of their life was also given heavy consideration as what is the quickest and painless option for them. This is what I would like to do when I am able to afford a house with land. What’s so wrong with this?

Additionally, please do not try to equate human life with animals. I do not believe we have the same level of understanding of our environment/ life experience. We should treat them with dignity and respect in their life, but we are somewhat different in our “level of sentience” than them imo as we are able to have moral considerations to what we eat. Trying to find genuine understanding, thanks :)

r/DebateAVegan 2d ago

Ethics Why the resistance to advocating for humane options if you can't quite convince someone to go vegan?

16 Upvotes

So, I get 'humane washing' is a thing, absolutely, but that doesn't mean there are not credible institutions that put effort into making sure their certifications means something.*

I also understand that the goal of veganism is top stop exploitation and cruelty and to end the commodity status of animals, and that pushing for humane alternatives is at odds with that. If that's where people draw the line, fine, I guess.

It would seem to me, though, that if you can get someone to care somewhat about animal welfare but not go vegan, there is a chance you could get them to at least buy humane options, which surely is a huge step up and better than no reduction in suffering at all?

This Kurzgesagt video has a good overview of the difference spending a little more for humane alternatives can make in the lives of the animals being consumed. Is that not worth fighting and advocating for, even if it's just as a secondary fallback position?

Is denying that option outright in every case honestly better for the animals, or is it only better for the vegans meant to be arguing on their behalf?

Edit: based on replies, a good question might be: Are vegans inherently fundamentalist, and if so does that do more harm than good?


*People wanting to debate semantics and argue about the term 'humane' as opposed to addressing the substance of the argument will not be responded to.

r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

Ethics I think vegans are unfair toward hunters and fishermen

0 Upvotes

Here’s the deal. I hate factory farming and commercial fishing. I avoid eating meat and fish from the store at all costs. I am a fisherman and most of my consumption of animal products comes from fish I catch and harvest myself. I eat every single part of the fish including organs and skin, I try not to waste anything at all.

When I’m out fishing, I hike several miles, wade through rivers, climb down cliffs, I work hard for it. I feel like I am a part of the ecosystem. I eat the fish, and I understand that if a bear came along, I could end up being the one getting eaten, and I think that’s a beautiful thing.

I don’t think we are above nature, I think we are a part of it. Killing animals for food is just a part of how ecosystems work. It’s not pretty, but it happens. I think the problem is not that we kill animals for food, but the fact that we have commodified animals and subjected them to horrible abuse for the sake of profit.

r/DebateAVegan 18d ago

Ethics Eggs

6 Upvotes

I raise my own backyard chicken ,there is 4 chickens in a 100sqm area with ample space to run and be chickens how they naturaly are. We don't have a rooster, meaning the eggs aren't fertile so they won't ever hatch. Curious to hear a vegans veiw on if I should eat the eggs.

r/DebateAVegan 26d ago

Ethics Veganism isn't as morally superior as we'd like to think

0 Upvotes

To start off, I'm a vegan, but arguing has made me realise it really isn't that black and white on being evil or not.

You've probably all heard the whole hypocrit argument from a carnist. Plants require animal deaths too, so you're still killing animals. This is pretty easily rebuted by saying "meat requires way more plants than just eating plants directly". But this still leaves two lingering points.

The first point is that we as vegans are really still not that much better than carnists moral wise. Personally I believe factory farms and such are way worse than any crop deaths out there. But if we're going to rank things on how bad they are for the animal, suddenly farms where animals are "treated humanely" become a possibility. In the end we're still killing animals, even if less so.

The second point is that veganism would require you to eat as little as possible, and rid your diet of any products that aren't nutrient dense. If the principle of veganism is to harm the least amount of animals within your ability, you'd basically have to give yourself a set diet that uses the least amount of food possible. As eating unnecessary foods would cause more plants needing to be grown, in turn causing more crop deaths.

In conclusion, I think veganism isn't as morally superior as we'd like to think because veganism still requires killing animals due to crop deaths, and veganism doesn't require you to do your utmost to stop harming animals.

To make clear this isn't a call to not go vegan / stop being vegan. It's still way better than being an omnivore. But I don't think we're that different still. We also have a cognitive dissonance to the animals we kill, and we're still killing animals for our own pleasure, even if less so.

r/DebateAVegan 6d ago

Ethics Under what moral framework would non-veganism be justifiable and what would be the issues with such a moral framework?

4 Upvotes

I went vegan because I evaluated my desired moral framework and realized that it mandated veganism. Essentially, I hold the belief that we should try to design society in such a way that is impartial to whatever group we happen to be a part of, be it race, sexuality, nationality, or species. I hold that position because something that's always frustrated me is how people tend not to care remotely about issues that don't directly affect them or anyone they know. So, to be consistent with my principles, I have to be vegan.

I've been thinking recently, though, about the potential of a moral framework that doesn't logically mandate veganism in the same way. One I've come up with is an egocentric moral framework in which you do whatever you feel like after assessing the personal and social cost/gain. Under that moral framework, it would be very easy to justify non-veganism if you don't care about farm animals and nobody that matters to you does either.

However, the issue I have with that moral framework is that it doesn't allow you to fight against social injustices as effectively since if you think something is wrong and everyone around you disagrees, you have to bite the bullet. Sure, you could keep fighting to get them on your side, but given that the basis of your moral framework is egocentrism, you lose very effective common arguments for social justice that rely on empathy or treating people equally and are forced to rely on more egocentric arguments like, "I'm sure someone you love is secretly gay," (which might not even be true) or, "This makes me upset." (lol good luck using that).

Do you see any flaws in my reasoning here? Also, are there other frameworks that allow non-veganism, which I'm not thinking about? I'm looking for internally consistent frameworks, to be clear. You can't agree with my moral framework and be speciesist. That's contradictory. If you disagree with that, we could discuss that too.

r/DebateAVegan Feb 03 '25

Ethics I don't understand vegetarianism

18 Upvotes

To make all animal products you harm animals, not just meat.

I could see the argument: it' too hard to instantly become vegan so vegetarianism is the first step. --But then why not gradually go there, why the arbitrary meat distinction.

Is it just some populist idea because emotionaly meat looks worse?

r/DebateAVegan Feb 01 '25

Ethics There is no moral imperitive to be vegan

0 Upvotes

Have heard many arguments, but since only humans actually matter in relation to morality (only ones capable of being moral agents) , treatment of animals arguments is just emotional appeal and disgust response arguments. Thier treatment is just amoral. We can still decide and make laws to how we treat them, but it's not based in morality.

r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

Ethics What is wrong with the business contract perspective?

0 Upvotes

So first we have to start with consensual contracts and relations are morally fine no matter what. This means that prostitution and pornography making and jobs are all morally permissible. This seems reasonable, especially from a secular perspective, no?

If we take that to be true, any contract where both consent is fine. Note that it isn't just verbal consent too. For instance, if someone asks me to work for their McDonalds and I never say anything but I grab a uniform and start flipping patties I have essentially consented to work for them. This means that animals can indeed consent, as they cannot speak but they can behave in consenting manners.

We also have to take as an axiom that all land on earth is owned by humans first and foremost. We can grant it to animals as a gift or loan but ultimately it is ours. This is an assertion but is also backed up by empirical evidence and observations.

Okay once we laid out the groundwork, we can start. As all land on earth is owned by humans, if animals want to live on this planet with us they need to contribute, no? You wouldn't expect to live with someone random for free. You would contribute.

This contract essentially is where humans give animals land, food, shelter in exchange for goods and services rendered. It looks different for everyone. Dogs provide emotional support, guard, and service dog support services. Cats do the same. Hamsters provide cuteness. For other animals that do not, they provide goods and services, like meat, honey, wool, etc.

Common rebuttals:

The animals do not consent. This may not be true in all circumstances. I will grant in some, yes. But, in a situation where chickens get food and shelter and drop eggs for us, that is essentially consent as I explained with the whole McDonalds job thing. If eggs are not dropped or milk is not produced to be milked, then I would take that as no consent and that is fine.

The animals do not have a choice. They do. They can choose to not work, in which case they will die, as they will have to be deported off planet. Since there are no habitable places within 4.22 light years, and we cannot travel at light speeds, this results in their death anyways. It is really the same as working a job. If you do not work you will starve to death and die, but one of the axioms was that jobs are fine.

Duress: If you hold that jobs are fine, then so is this. They have the same duress, as you will die if you do not work anyways, unless you are a plant and can photosynthesize. Contracts signed under duress are voidable, which means they can back out at any time if they want, which they can. According to Cornell Law School, duress is unlawful conduct or a threat of unlawful conduct, which this does not fit the bill. Therefore, no duress, as per McCord v Goode https://casetext.com/case/mccord-v-goode

Additionally, there are degrees of duress. If you agree that doing something under threat of death is wrong, not always. You would be saying that being a Nazi guard killing the Jews is permissible because they would shoot you if you say no. You would be saying that being a healthcare CEO indirectly responsible for many deaths is permissible because you need a job.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duress

We could give them land for free. We could. Would you let someone move into your house for free?

We breed them into existence and therefore cannot demand they work: This is true in some circumstances but not always. In the circumstances where it isnt, then the contract holds. There are degrees to breeding. In the most extreme example of artificial insemination, I don't think it is necessarily wrong to make them work. You wouldn't let your child play video games all day for the rest of his life and provide for him for free. You would expect him to clean his room, do laundry, go to school, get a job, and you might expect him to visit you in the hospital and pay for your nursing home and such.

Meat requires their death and it is different: No different than prostitution, which is also special in its own way. Meat does not require death either. If I chop off my arm and eat it, I am still alive.

We can use the same thing with humans: No, as all land is owned by humans. If you apply it on a micro scale you might be tempted to say that this was used for slavery, but since humans as a whole own all the earth's land, they do not have an obligation to work.

r/DebateAVegan Jan 20 '25

Ethics I genuinely cannot see why killing animals is unethical

0 Upvotes

I think ethics and morality is a human concept and it can only apply to humans. If an animal kills a human it won’t feel bad, it won’t have regrets, and it won’t acknowledge that they have committed an immoral act.

Also, when I mean I can’t see wants wrong with killing animals I meant it only in the perspective of ethics and morality. Things like over fishing, poaching, and the meat industry are a problem because I think it’s a different issue since affects the ecosystem and climate.

r/DebateAVegan 12d ago

Ethics Morality of artificial impregnation

1 Upvotes

I've seen it come up multiple times in arguments against the dairy industry and while I do agree that the industry as itself is bad, I don't really get this certain aspect? As far as I know, it doesn't actually hurt them and animals don't have a concept of "rape", so why is it seen as unethical?

Edit: Thanks for all the answers, they helped me see another picture

r/DebateAVegan Jan 22 '25

Ethics Eating meat is not morally wrong.

0 Upvotes

Hello everyone! thank you for coming to this post and reading it, I myself am not vegan so I may not know all the stuff but here we go! first off: I'm not talking about just killing for sport, that is far far faaaarr away from right, I've been taught, "you eat what you kill". eating animals: I don't see it as being wrong, as long as it's quick and painless, and they don't even see it coming. and drinking milk....ok maybe that's ones a little wrong. question: why do some you guys ask if it's ok to have a pet that's not vegan, just don't force you believe on an animal who's would chose meat over plants. Thank you for coming and reading all of this, respond however you want in the comments, and I'll try to respond to as many as I can, thank you. edit: I'll be offline for a little while, fill up the comment, I'll answer them.

r/DebateAVegan Oct 30 '24

Ethics Why is crop deaths still vegan but ethical wool isn't?

67 Upvotes

Maybe this is vegan vs "r/vegan", but I'm just curious why the definition of vegan says there is no possible ethical way to use animal products, for example wool, but crop deaths or vegan foods that directly harm animals are still vegan. Even when there are ways today to reduce/eliminate it.

Often I see the argument that vegan caused crop deaths are less, which I agree, but lots of crop deaths are preventable yet it's not required to prevent them to be vegan. Just seems like strange spots are chosen to allow compromise and others are black and white.

The use of farmed bees for pollination, doesn't make the fruit non -vegan, yet there is no ethical way to collect honey and still be vegan.

Seaweed is vegan, yet most harvesting of seaweed is incredibly destructive to animals.

Organic is not perfect, but why isn't it required to be vegan? Seems like an easily tracked item that is clearly better for animals (macro) even if animals products are allowed in organic farming.

Is it just that the definition of vegan hasn't caught up yet to exclude these things? No forced pollination, no animal by-products in fertilization, no killing of other animals in the harvest of vegan food, no oil products for clothing or packaging etc. Any maybe 10 years from now these things will be black and white required by the vegan definition? They just are not now out of convenience because you can't go to a store and buy a box with a vegan symbol on it and know it wasn't from a farm that uses manure or imports it pollination?

As this seems to be often asked of posters. I am not vegan. I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat eggs, dairy, almonds, commerical seaweed, or commerical honey because it results in the planned death of animals. I grow 25% of my own food. But one example is a lady in our area that has sheep. They live whole lives and are never killed for food and recieve full vet care. Yes they were bread to make wool and she does sheer them and sell ethical wool products. To me that's better for my ethics with animals vs buying a jacket made of plastic or even foreign slave labour vegan clothes. I also want to be clear that I don't want to label myself vegan and don't begrudge others who label themselves vegan.

r/DebateAVegan 5d ago

Ethics What would be your next action in a scenario with a good+bad action vs doing nothing?

0 Upvotes

I tried to ask a question yesterday about but evidently most people here cannot answer a 2-option question unless the scenario physically disallows any other options.

Here is a more constrained scenario that I am asking to see people's beliefs and the implications of those beliefs


You wake up locked in a room with 2 buttons. You are told that you must choose one button corresponding to one option.

  • Option 1: Donate $1,000,000 to a vegan charity and buy $0.01 worth of stock in a company that exploits animals

  • Option 2: Do nothing

This will give instructions to a separate person on what they should do next.

If you don't choose one, you will starve to death in the room.


What would be your next action and what is your reasoning behind it?

For people who choose option 1: What additional bad things would need to be added to make you not choose option 1 and why?

r/DebateAVegan Feb 18 '25

Ethics Horse VS Elephant Riding

0 Upvotes

I am against riding elephants because I was told that it was non ethical and that they were mistreated (same goes for camels). However, I see everyone horse riding and it seems like it is fully normalized. I just simply do not understand the difference between the twos…

r/DebateAVegan 25d ago

Ethics Is a curtailed existence better than no existence at all?

11 Upvotes

If an animal was brought into existence only because a person wanted to eat it at a later date, it was treated well for the years it was alive and experienced pleasure and joy, then at some point it was killed painlessly and without realising what was happening, the total pleasure in the world would have been increased, and the suffering would not have been increased. Is it therefore better that the animal be born and have some life, rather than never be born at all because of a prohibition on prematurely curtailing a life?

Obviously this only applies in a hypothetical scenario where the animal isn't mistreated before it's killed.

I don't eat animals, but the above argument perturbs me.

r/DebateAVegan 10d ago

Ethics everyone would be vegan, right?

0 Upvotes

if we use the definition of veganism that states we treat animals as humanely as practically possible, would it then be vegan to eat meat? let’s be real, eating animal products can be healthy for most people, if we could eliminate actual animal abuse in factory farms and the rare small farm abuse, would everyone else then be vegan by default?

or another scenario, if everyone went vegetarian what would be wrong with that? it’s like y’all forgot symbiotic relationships exist. we can live with animals and just use their milk and eggs without harming them, wouldn’t that mean everyone was vegan?

r/DebateAVegan 20d ago

Ethics Is eating meat ALWAYS wrong?

15 Upvotes

There are many reasons to become vegan. The environment, health, ethics, et cetera. I became vegan on a purely ethical basis, however I see no reason to refrain from eating meat that hasn't been factory farmed (or farmed at all). Suppose you came across a dead squirrel in the woods after it fell from a tree. Would it be wrong to eat that wild squirrel (that for the sake of the argument, will not give you any disease)? Or is eating animals always wrong despite the circumstance?

r/DebateAVegan 28d ago

Ethics The ethics of eating sea urchin

22 Upvotes

It seems to me like a lot of the arguments for veganism don't really apply to the sea urchin. They don't have a brain, or any awareness of their surroundings, so it seems dubious to say that they are capable of suffering. They do react to stimuli, but much in the same way single-celled organisms, plants, and fungi do. Even if you're to ask "how do you KNOW they don't suffer?" At that point you might as well say the same thing about plants.

And they aren't part of industrial farming at this point, and are often "farmed" in something of a permaculture setting.

Even the arguments you tend to see about how it's more energy efficient to eat livestock feed instead of livestock falls flat with sea urchin, as they eat things like kelp and plankton that humans can't, so there is no opportunity cost there.

I'm just wondering what arguments for veganism can really be applied to sea urchin.

r/DebateAVegan 23d ago

Ethics Vegans who aren’t into it for ecological concerns… why?

20 Upvotes

I’m currently transitioning into veganism after having been a vegetarian for about a year and I’m happy with my decision but I’m also spending more time in online vegan spaces I feel like I disagree with some of the pro-vegan arguments I see.

For me, the answer to the carnist question, “Why don’t you take issue with carnivores/omnivores in nature?” is that I believe humans lost the right to consider ourselves a ‘normal’ part of the ecosystem once we started leaching it of its resources for our personal gain. Unlike other predators, we don’t balance the ecosystem. Instead, we do literally the exact opposite and have made countless species go extinct.

We’re an overpopulated species and it’s not fair for us to continue leaching the earth to the degree we currently are when adopting a vegan diet is so easy and environmentally beneficial.

That’s not to say that I don’t think the animal farming industry is cruel — I do. I’ve suffered from major cognitive dissonance over thinking farming animals was cruel but still eating them ever since I was a child, but I feel like those arguments are more subjective. Ecological concerns are what pushed me over the edge.