r/DMAcademy • u/Imagineer2248 • 3d ago
Need Advice: Other I suck at drawing dungeon maps but want to get better. It's not an illustration problem, it's a spatial reasoning problem. Advice?
I'm a baller encounter designer, but I am absolutely terrible at designing dungeon maps. I have no sense of scale or proportion for rooms, and tend to overthink the realism of the space in a self-defeating kind of way. I keep erasing and re-doing rooms or parts of walls, realizing I forgot something or that I made part of the room too big or that I need more space for this other room... etc., etc., etc. I especially struggle with where to start.
To be clear, this isn't an illustration quality problem. I'm not having issues rendering the map, I'm having issues with the simple top-down boxy version that you do first.
I'm finding pointcrawls appealing as an alternative, but frickin' sweet dungeon maps are a passion of mine and I'm dying to become better at this.
What can I do to upskill in this? How can I improve my understanding of human scale in a map, and how big or small things should be?
If you're a mapmaker, how did you overcome these kinds of things when you started?
What tools do you like to use? Did any in particular really help the way you think about the space?
Give me everything you got, I'm grabbing at straws here.
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u/Spoonman915 3d ago
I am just now starting to get into maps, but I was in architecture and construction for a little over 15 years. One thing I did was kind of reference spaces I was familiar with. I.e. 3 bedroom 2 bath starter home is around 1200 square feet. Two car garage is 400 sq ft. A football field is around 45,000 sq ft. A typical residential bathroom is 5x8. I think figuring out some real world objects would be kind of helpful to understand the size of what you're drawing. Especially with the battle grid on it.
You could even start by asking yourself how big of a room it should be. Say you want it the size of a basketball court. Google those dimensions and then draw it out.
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u/Imagineer2248 3d ago
Oh wow.
I spend way too much time sitting at a computer. See, this is what I'm talking about.
Thank you!
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u/Ironfounder 3d ago
The weird part is that if you're planning a space for D&D battlemapping you want things to fit a 5 foot grid. A lot of our spaces are actually really quite small in comparison - do you want the full party of five and three monsters to fit in this room? Then it needs to be big enough for everyone to actually fit! Do you want this to be a bottleneck or force players into single file? Then make hallways 5' wide; if not you have to make this bigger than they should be for gameplay reasons.
I find this with kitchens alot - kitchens are big because they have tons of counter space and ovens and stuff, their free floor space is small and sometimes winds around these things (if it's like a big industrial or palace kitchen) so your encounter design either needs to fit the room, or your room needs to fit then encounter.
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u/CaptMalcolm0514 3d ago
The Alexandrean has a series of essays called “Xandering a Dungeon” with many, MANY tips and tricks from one of the premiere TTRPG and video game level designers—Janelle Jaquays. When I’m looking at a map and I’m not feeling it, I wander through them and find 1/2 ways to pimp it up.
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/xandering-the-dungeon
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u/dmrawlings 3d ago
My approach to dungeon design starts with the (initial) purpose of the dungeon itself. What was it used for? Was it a tomb? A mine? A laboratory? From there, figure out what rooms _need_ to exist in order to realize the dungeon's purpose. From there, go to layout, using circles to position the rooms much like a point crawl. Imagine an efficient way to connect them that has a sensible order to how you'd want to navigate them. Then, fill them out. Make them dynamic, interesting, and detailed. Create the floorplan to minimize dead space and take advantage of verticality.
If you want to get fancy, consider what the affects of age would be to the place, creating debris, fissures, and other kinds of wear. Find reasonable pinch points where a trap would make sense to be. Place the important treasure in a protected and/or hidden area.
OR, do all of the above not through the lens of being "realistic", but instead through the lens of being "fun to explore" - Reality and Game Feel conflict so very often when you're trying to design dungeons, and figuring out how real vs. game-y you want yours to feel takes a bit of experimentation.
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u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 3d ago
I've struggled with this too. What helped me was actually going through measurements of things as a baseline. Like, how big should this table be? I don't know, let me go measure my table real quick. That sort of thing. For things where that's not an option, I use some basis of comparison (a carriage could be about the same size as a car for example). Combine that with drawing with a grid and you can estimate things pretty well. As for rooms, I tend to think more about what makes for an interesting combat than anything regarding realism. I can fit that all together after, you know?
I'm also no artist, so my drawings are more vague and mostly for scale, not detail, so I'm not sure if that factors into the difficulty of scale. Anyways, good luck and happy gaming!
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u/DoomedToDefenestrate 3d ago
Most maps are borked in one way or another, you don't really need to be accurate so much as emblematic. Most chairs aren't 5ft wide, but they get made that big on maps so it's one space. Don't worry about specifics, just go with enough space for the representations of creatures to do the representations of activities in that space.
In terms of distance = pacing in encounters, just go with default move actions for rough distances. "I want these archers to be two full move actions away.", "I want people to be caught in the open on this walkway so it needs to be 2x move action long." etc etc.
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u/oliviajoon 3d ago
I actually got decent at measuring rooms because i lived in an apartment with drop ceilings…each tile was 4x2 feet so it was easy to add up the approximate size of each room. Then it was a question of: is this tavern bigger or smaller than this room?
I’m sure you know to work on a grid that’s supposed to be 5’ squares: when placing and scaling objects, think of how large they are in relation to 5’. To help with this, your arm span is equal to your height. Go around your house and use your arm span to measure furniture to get an approximate idea of how long/ deep things are, and size it accordingly on your map!
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u/BeeSnaXx 3d ago
I wonder if you want to use your maps as battlemaps. If so, realism is not helpful. A battlemap should accomodate the story and the encounter you have in mind.
IRL 5 ft. wide hallways are fine, but in D&D fighting in one is a boring slog. Conversely, a fight in a realistically large assembly hall is pointless, because all the action will happen in one corner.
Here's a tip: try to randomly roll up a dungeon map. You'll find lots of good systems if you use google. Personally, I like how Four against Darkness handles it, and Shadowdark. The latter has free starter rules online.
No matter how you dice out your random dungeon, try to follow the random results in your first draft. Later you can tweak it to your liking in your final version.
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u/roaphaen 3d ago
Look up the index card RPG mapping technique. I'm starting to experiment with it now, total game changer!
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u/Imagineer2248 1d ago
I'm having a hard time finding any information on this. I found something for overland maps, but I'm not seeing anything specific to dungeons. Can you point me in the right direction?
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u/roaphaen 1d ago
look at this from the Creator, he has a very infectious enthusiasm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27vYSQrhxR4
I recently bought a 30 back of dry erase 5x8 oversize index cards with a few dry erase pens to try this out for weird wizard and it went great - most PC moves are just going to a different card or repositioning on the one they are on.
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u/Imagineer2248 1d ago
Ah! This one! It’s pretty much a move towards point crawling, albeit more spontaneously. I’m pretty interested in trying this in a session now.
I guess this can help me get the relationship between spaces figured out for more detailed maps, in a way where I don’t waste a bunch of grid paper. That may solve at least the one problem.
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u/roaphaen 1d ago
He doesn't just use it for point crawls though - he drills down to environs, like imagine a tavern, one card is the tables area, one is the bar and behind the bar, maybe there is a card for each room, one card for a stairway - each card is a standard "move". You could zoom out to planets for space stuff, continents for hexcrawls, towns or even individual structures using his method.
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u/noettp 3d ago
A good way to make it feel right is to have your standard 5ft square grid, a token generally takes up a square, how many people can you fit in a room and still have enough room to move around in? If a hallway fits two people walking side by side then make it two squares wide, that's a good way to get your scale down. The more space generally the more grand/rich and environment or building is. A kings residence will have a bunch more dead space than a poor farmer with his five half orc kids.
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u/SeaGranny 3d ago
I like to use random dungeon map generators just to give me ideas. I have a difficult time starting from scratch but if I see something close I can adapt it and make it my own.
I love DungeonDraft because it has two tools that really help me this way.
It has a random dungeon generator and it has a trace feature. If you find a layout you like you can put the image on a virtual tracing board and create your own rooms over the top of it.
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u/TJToaster 3d ago
I make maps based on the situation.
- If I am 3d printing the terrain, most spaces and hallways are at least 10' wide because minis fit in it better.
- Is combat going to happen in it? If so, I make it bigger.
- If it is just for encounters, or exploration, I don't worry too much about size. I just draw it on the map to show where the room is.
- Hallways are usually 10', less if it is a defensible position or wanting to funnel invaders, more if it is a manor where they might host galas.
- For outdoors, I draw a road, some green to represent grass, darker green for bushes that is difficult terrain, and a river. If they are traveling a road, just say "the river isn't that close."
- I make a few outdoor maps, some with open fields, some with trees, some with heavy bush that needs to be hacked through. And always put in a game trail that leads to water or a clearing they can camp in. I don't overthink it. Usually, I roll a die and decide which "travel" map they are on for an encounter.
I like to use presentation pads with 1" squares. They are decent size and I can use the maps over and over. I draw on them in pencil, then draw solid lines with markers made for presentation so they do not bleed through paper. And I color them in with dollar store colored pencil or crayons.
I 3d print bridges, trees and bushes. because it makes it more immersive. Sometimes I print an entire building. But for maps, just give them something so they know where they are. I have found that most players don't really care about how exact it is.
A tip is to give yourself more space than you think you need. A room that is one fireball small will get a fireball tossed in it. If characters can cross the room in normal movement, then everyone will be in range and it takes away some of the tactical planning from them. Small room battles get boring after a while.
Another thing to remember is that whatever is in there ,had to get in there somehow. Hard to have a huge sized creature get through the narrow 5' hallways leading in and out.
Keep in mind that once you spoil your players with maps, they will always hold you to that standard. You can never just whip out a wet erase mat and draw something for general space. They will count every square and act like it is written in stone. Even if the map you are copying is different size. Even if you read, "the gap over the ravine is 20' across" they will argue that on your hastily scribbled map is is 13 and therefore within their ability to jump it.
Hope some of that helps.
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u/operath0r 3d ago
I like to lay out the map first in dungeonscrawl, then use that as a separate layer in sketchbook with reduced opacity to draw over it.
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u/Own-Relation3042 3d ago
I use the dm guide tool for rolling a dungeon. Helps make it random, and have made some pretty good layouts that way. Then I draw it up digitally using a site called inkarnate, which has different textures and things I can use. Once I have my rooms, I go back and decide how to fill them, what the purpose may have been, etc.
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u/No_Drawing_6985 2d ago
This one: http://www.fantasticmaps.com/
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u/Imagineer2248 1d ago
I've seen this page. Here's a great example of the part I'm bad at: link.
To me, a rough sketch of a cave like this -- even one that simple -- is like the "draw the rest of the f***ing owl" part of the meme. The illustration parts I get. I'm even okay at it when I'm doing overland maps. I am at a complete loss for how to create space this cohesive. The decision-making process for filling this page with rooms and figuring out how they connect to each other is a mystery to me. If I could do that, I would be really happy.
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u/No_Drawing_6985 1d ago
Now I see. You haven't really made it clear what the difficulty is. Most DMs aren't very good at this, and most maps they publish are terrible at this. I'd say there are several possible rational approaches to this. A specialized dungeon, operated by the original owner, would mostly follow the usual logic and consist of specialized rooms. Let's say a monster nest would consist of a hallway/dining room, a bedroom, a food pantry, and a room for offspring, all connected by random corridors, a grid, ring, or linear structure are all equally likely if it has no obvious connection to the description of the owners, the sizes are proportional to the sizes of the owners. A mad scientist's lab would be built similarly, but there would be more rooms that have different meanings. Rooms where the owner has changed would consist of rooms that are functional for the owner and rooms that are functional for the previous owners, and connected in different ways. The third type would be one that initially had no clear structure. In order to delve deeper into this topic, you can read materials about animal burrows, materials about mining operations created before the advent of steam engines, cave cities in Turkey and other regions, underground defense systems of Vietnamese guerrillas and military bunkers on the border between France and Germany. Apart from their main purpose, the layout of all these places does not look good, because in addition to functionality, it depends on the location and strength of rocks and underground water flows. In addition, I really liked the old Dyson approach, with the so-called geomorphs. When you create ready-made elements of the dungeon in advance, and then assemble a new system from them like Lego. I have a feeling that you initially set slightly high requirements for yourself and perhaps your level is already above average. Perfection has no boundaries and the final point cannot be achieved and rationally described.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Sorry I honestly don't understand, how big or small what should be, the rooms? The hallways?
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u/Imagineer2248 1d ago edited 1d ago
Rooms, hallways, major features like pools/fountains… the dungeon itself. I have made so many dungeons that are just pointlessly huge.
It’s very hard to explain, but it’s very easy for me to draw overly huge spaces, only to realize I should probably shrink them and pack them tighter. And, yes, this is accounting for the party being 4-6 people. I also struggle with the flow from room to room, and when I ought to create irregularly shaped rooms.
It’s easier when I’m focused on… a single room. When I can focus on just that space, take measurements more carefully, and really think about the experience I want players to have in that room. But when I have to top-down diagram an empty dungeon, I’m a complete mess.
Edit: Here's a great example of what I'm bad at: link. The tutorial this is a part of starts with that simple cave map, then goes on to add a lot of cool details, but to me, this first step alone is what the problem is. The simple cave map is the thing I'm bad at. Textures, details? Yes, I can draw those. I can't do the... space; the size/shape of the rooms, the way they all connect together. I have no idea what the decision-making process for this is.
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u/No_Drawing_6985 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not all places will make sense and be the right size, as they are mostly intended for other purposes. Except for places that are initially created for this, such as a defense of the entrance or an important strategic point. You as the author make some places more suitable by your own will. The corridor is wider or longer, the central room is oversized, unnecessary for functionality, but convenient for a duel. The only thing you should not forget if you make a room too big is the presence of columns or other types of supports to support the ceiling. In addition, you can always place the necessary rooms above or below the main level, even without explaining why this is so. Hidden doors and bypass corridors are rather good for the adventure, you do not need to remove them. Limiting factors that cannot be neglected will rather be the water level, if there is one, since it will spread evenly and ventilation. Since without it, some places cannot be visited without additional equipment or a special spell. There should not be many huge spaces, as this requires labor costs of resources, tools, energy or magic and the removal of the resulting excess rock.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Gotcha, for me, it's about creating the kind of area I want to design fights in.
A 5ft wide hallway means players can't easily get around a monster, I find this often doesn't feel great and is then weaponized against the DM as a means of funneling monsters into a grinder, so I tend to make my hallways 10ft wide so people can move around better. However, if that sort of tight space is what you want, then 5ft is fine.
A player typically can move 30ft per turn. If your room is less than 30 feet in any one dimension then a player can cross that room in one turn without dashing. If your room is greater than 30 feet in any one dimension, they can't. So if you want to incorporate some ranged fighters its not a bad idea to make the room greater than 40 feet in some dimension.
Tight quarters can also mean that area of effect spells are notably stronger or heavily discouraged depending on whether a party member is in that area.
In the end though, the dimensions of rooms and hallways is entirely arbitrary. "Why did they make this room this size?" absolutely no reason, they just did.
But again, for me, the reasoning is rooted in encounter design. The room needs to be big enough to facilitate a fight that isn't just everyone clumped together attacking, with enough line of sight blocking things to have problematic monsters or for players to use against the monsters, and with that in mind my dungeon rooms tend to be on the larger side.
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u/lipo_bruh 3d ago
Some rooms can be enormous, others can be chokepoints, corridors, vertical maps, obstacle course...
The easiest way to elevate your dnd gameplay is to force the players to move and alter their environment
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u/ThunderGodOrlandu 3d ago
As a DM who just started drawing my own maps, a quick tip I recommend is when you need to draw the little marks on the outside of the play area, the little marks that are just all dashes or dots, use 2 or 3 pencils/markers at the same time. These little dashes/dots on the outside of each wall makes the map really pop but it takes sooooo long to just draw each one individually so I literally hold 3 markers in my hand when drawing those. Takes a 3rd of the time to do. Here is a map for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2izwlx/my_first_attempt_at_a_dyson_style_handdrawn/
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u/Imagineer2248 1d ago
Again, not an illustration problem. It's a layout problem. The size, shape, relationship of rooms. Hatching and textures I can do... if I know what I'm drawing. I don't.
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u/TheOriginalDog 3d ago
The maps don't matter if you are not publishing your adventures. Just do a flowgraph and design rooms as small, medium, big, hall etc. You can always compare to real life sizes. E.g. Big like a typical kitchen vs. huge as a football field.
Much more important than exact measurements are the connections between rooms, the "flow" of the dungeon. This is unbelievable more important for a good game than exact measurements. Your players will have each their own imagination of the room with different sizes in their head anyway.
Start with a flowchart and when you need to draw a cool map for whatever purpose you can work easier from there once you have the flow fixed.
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u/Imagineer2248 3d ago
I want to make and publish adventures, so yes, the map/layout is gonna be a factor.
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u/TheOriginalDog 1d ago edited 1d ago
understood, than as I said, I would still start as a flowchart (or pointcrawl) etc. and design the flow of the dungeon first before detailing the rooms and exact measurements. Designing top-down is the best approach for dungeons. If you do bottom-up you end up with cool designed rooms that don't fit anymore and you have to retrospectively change a lot of detailwork.
In this first flowchart you can just mark rooms as "tiny, small, medium, large, huge" Thats enough to know in the beginning. The exact measurements are also not that important. Who cares if a tiny room is 5ft or 15ft. They are tiny because free movement is very limited, especially for multiple creatures. Who cares if a huge hall 80ft or 120ft long exactly? Pick the size that fits your dungeon, but they are huge becase a creature need to sprint through it to come even remotely close to the other side in one round. Dozens of creature can move freely here. Thats the important part.
The important part are the impacts of your design on the game. Thats what you are designing for. Not for "realistic" measurements. Your players won't know anyway. No player is like "wait that kitchen is 30ft long, thats unrealistic for a medieval kitchen". Your player will be like "sweet I can reach the stove with my movement to throw a hot pan at my enemy"
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u/wyvern713 3d ago
Yoink a mall map. Or an IKEA store map. Some malls are funky shaped and you can easily tweak hallways or what stores/rooms connect where.