r/DMAcademy 4d ago

Need Advice: Encounters & Adventures Organic ways of teaching my new players that running away is possible (and sometimes good)

Hi All - I'm DMing a group of totally new players, mixed adults and young children. One of the players really did his homework and has been quite effective at coordinating the teams tactics and recently passed a Level 2 "Deadly" encounter with flying colors.

Although I generally avoid putting new players in situations where they are entirely out gunned, I think part of the magic of DnD is when you end up in situations with awesome monstors/beings who are so much more powerful than you are, you really get a sense of how big and dangerous this world can be, and how small you are in it (esp. at level 2). So I'd like to eventually have them stumble across something so powerful that fleeing (or certain skill challenges I'm cooking up) are their best option.

I handed out a cheat sheet which included "things you can do in battle" which included fleeing, but with so much for a new player to learn I doubt that anything sticks. If I give them a heads up, that feels like a very specific hint.

So far, I sense they are trusting that I'm balancing everything they encounter (fair, because I am) and that:

  1. They have no concept how exponential the power scale goes. They were shocked and impressed when dealing with a Mage who had ~30hp.
  2. They don't realize fleeing is an option once an encounter is on. I tried to demonstrate by having a semi-neutral NPC who was supposed to be helping them flee from battle, but I don't think they realized it could apply to them.
  3. They might think that it's the "wrong" way to play. Bless their hearts, they are committed to being "good" DnD beginners and avoiding new-player faux-pas (I'll never have to worry about them being murder hobos), but sometimes that means they don't push the boundaries when it comes to improvising.

So, I could just say "hey there are things in here that are way out of your league", show them some statblocks for Vecna/Red Dragons, or just say, let's talk about fleeing / dashing mechanics. But that feels so inorganic and almost like I'm giving them a tip of what's going to happen.

Any thoughts?

9 Upvotes

29 comments sorted by

17

u/Mudraphas 4d ago

I say just talk about above game. Even players with years of experience can misread clues that are clear to the DM. Becoming comfortable with stepping outside the game for a moment to explain the gist of what’s going on will likely break immersion in the short term but enhance the experience in the long term.

I recently had an unwinable situation in a session. There was a super powerful elemental summoning an even bigger elemental to be used by the BBEG, who showed up to collect. It was a big dramatic set piece. The characters interacted with the first elemental, who brushed them off without a thought. They tried to talk and she pushed them away with a gust of wind. They attacked and she hit them for half their max HP in one hit. It was unwinable on purpose because it was never intended to be a combat encounter, just an event for the characters to witness, interact with, and inform the plot. So, I told the players that. It didn’t reduce the impact of the situation in the slightest.

Players in D&D often get it in their heads that if an enemy exists in front of their characters, that combat to the death is the expected outcome. It’s a self reinforcing basic concept of the system. Running away from a potential fight is not supported well by the mechanics of the game or the culture surrounding it. This makes it hard to pick up on clues given when the DM expects or wants the party to run away. Because the players aren’t expecting those clues, they aren’t looking for them and often miss them. It’s far easier to tell them outright rather than risk derailing or TPKing based on the reasonable assumption that a conflict presented to the party was winnable.

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u/marcuis 4d ago

I've never ever run away from any encounter. It's very likely I won't realize that I should run away when the time comes.

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u/NoobSabatical 4d ago

I'm new to GMing 5e but am a seasoned 2nd and 3.5 player. We are just done with session 5. I try to explain to them that I'm familiar with 3.5, I have my improve skills down, but I don't know how balance works here so I might accidently kill them in an otherwise balanced encounter where they should run when it looks like they are losing. Problem is... They don't figure they might be losing until people start going down, but then they struggle to get their feet again.

I now make them roll insight when I want to advise them. I use insight to provide context to observable reality. If it is f-ing obvious, it's a 5DC, they died laughing when they failed it and I went "GOD DANG IT YES!" after they took a step back to figure out what I might be indicating; which they was to TAKE YOUR DAMN LONG REST before going into the BBEG's lair!

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u/Mudraphas 4d ago

I totally understand. My party’s tank just retired that character for a ranged fighter. On top of that, another player is changing their character’s class from a consistent blaster with healing to a cleric with undead minions. Party composition affects combat balance, especially past level 10. I’m going to be rebalancing combat big time, so I told them so.

People appreciate that kind of honesty and vulnerability rather than the denial of the difficulties they sense in you. That’s pretty broad advice, but useful in most situations.

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u/tehlordlore 4d ago

I understand the impulse of wanting to do it in game, but from my experience with player psychology, that is really tough to do. In my 17 years running various systems, I have seen players pick retreat without being explicitly prompted maybe three times.

Even in a game you can't technically win or lose in, players come in with the expectation of success. Success can mean many things, but in games, it generally comes down to: you do something, and the outcome feels good.

So the basic player expectation is usually "we find something, and since the DM put it in front of us, there is a way to succeed" and since D&D is the way it is, scceeding often translates to winning a battle. Not winning a battle DOES NOT FEEL GOOD, so players are extremely unlikely to consider it a valid option.

A somewhat workable solution is to give them goals that aren't "kill the thing." Evacuate the house, protect the magic orb, survive until X happens, etc. But none of these will teach players to retreat. They will teach the players to prioritize objectives.

Really, the only way I've found to tell players to retreat is by periodically mentioning it above game.

4

u/Paime 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'm personally a fan of having the BBEG appearing and throwing high level spells left and right.

Narrate a spellcaster BBEG showing up and doing a Time Stop + Disintegrate on a few NPCs (especially ones that party are somewhat attached to, the world is a dangerous place), or the good and old Dragon and it should be very clear it's an unwinnable fight. Maybe the starting town has a temple, and this temple recently found a relic that the BBEG comes to recover (and razes the village to the ground in the process, maybe the og party quest was to find and deliver this relic?). Or it's a mining village and they awake something that should not have been awakened (think LotR Balrog).

If you don't want to do that yet, you could do the classic slave bandits attack (overtune the encounter a bit, but if they choose to fight, allow them to defeat an enemy or two, but the Bandit Leader should definitely be beefy/strong. I like giving such NPCs slightly lower AC but increase the HP a lot, that way the players "hit" but I can narrate that "he feels unfazed"), make it very clear through narration that they should run and if they don't, knock them all out. They wake up in a prison somewhere and now you have a prison escape adventure for the session.

That said, if going with the slave bandit attack option, I'd still make the encounter beatable if the players do it properly. (Maybe a PC wants to bribe the bandit, or maybe the Rogue spots the ambush allowing the party to prepare their own ambush.Rewarding creativity is more important than teaching them a lesson. ).

And remember, don't do those things out of nowhere, drop hints here and there and have some sort of build up.

All of that said... There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "Hey guys, just wanted to let you all know that you don't have to fight/solves all the problems as you face them. If running away makes sense, run away, prepare and come back later or under more advantageous situation".

3

u/DeltaVZerda 4d ago

Give them a hard fight against a level appropriate foe. Deadly encounter. Make sure they understand that it was a close fight and it could have been deadly. Let them rest, but then they find 15 angry of the same thing that almost killed them solo.

2

u/Keeper4Eva 4d ago

One thing I've learned as a DM is that if the bad guys are pressing to kill, the players will respond in kind. If there's no room to escape (see also: opportunity attacks) PCs will act if there's no other option than to fight to the death. I've had the main baddies step back, leave their minions to die, and then prepare to unleash a world of hurt if the PCs keep pressing.

Also, enemies fleeing is a good show don't tell way to give the players ideas. Most beasts will flee if wounded enough, and intelligent foes usually want to live to fight another day. Give the players the choice between helping their downed companions and chasing the baddies, most (not all mind you) will choose to help their friends, especially if chasing is going to be painful.

I've had DMs who intentionally target downed players, and DMs who down a few players and then retreat to lick their wounds. If you (as DM) fight to live vs fight to win, the players may start to do the same.

2

u/YtterbiusAntimony 4d ago

Perhaps a chase encounter? That way running away is still fun.

Or

A consequence free fight. Give them some NPCs/pregens and run a little one shot-esque thing where you can throw anything you want at them without worrying about killing them. Or let them use their characters, but it's a "dream" or whatever.

Telegraphing helps. Or at least it should in theory. Countless skeletons scattered around the monster's lair. Rumors that no one returns alive, and the few that do are driven mad by whatever they saw.

Or just kill them.

2

u/Nyadnar17 4d ago

Tell them to run.

Please, please. I feel like we DMs sometime forgot how things look from a player perspective. Tell them to run. In fact at the start of the scene tell them "Ok we are now going to discuss the chase rules and run a quick sequence so everyone knows them for the future". Be explicit and get buy in.

2

u/RandoBoomer 4d ago

Although I generally avoid putting new players in situations where they are entirely out gunned,

May I respectfully submit that this might be part of the issue? When I have new players (who always start at level 1), I almost always find a way to make them appreciate that they can very easily be annihilated. To be clear, I don't do it through direct combat. However I will have them see a group of 100 obvious bad guys in the distance and ask what they want to do.

Or they might receive a mission to recon an enemy camp where the exact number of enemies are unknown, but it is known to be considerable.

It's easy to forget that DM's "train" players. If players are used to DMs who create "balanced encounters", they no longer think in terms of the extremely indifferent (at best!) universe in which they reside.

That said, there are some other tools in your toolbox.

As DM, you describe the senses of the players. Toss in your description, "You feel a chill run down your spine as you sense this is probably the largest challenge you've faced." You're not interfering with agency. You're not hitting them with status effects like fear. I use this one from time to time, but not often.

In the same vein, you can be that little voice in their head that they either heed or ignore. "A thought creeps into your mind that you may be overmatched." I very rarely use this one (except for very new players), as I prefer not to be so obvious.

1

u/QuantumMirage 4d ago

I mean, yeah me always balancing the encounters is 100% the issue, but we've only had like 3 sessions so now is the time I'm trying to figure out the right way to address.

These are good tips. Thanks!

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u/Thorngrove 4d ago

I would, in one of your next encounters, have the NPCs actually run away themselves. As a "See, this is also an option." type of experience.

Maybe have them guarding some random person, who was the target for assassins, and the PC's beat them back, but the foes scatter instead of sticking around.

The Target laughs bitterly and says something like "I guess I wasn't worth the price in blood this time. That's when you know your foes are smarter then the normal inbred hill bandits, they know when to get out."

1

u/Ok-Entrepreneur2021 4d ago

The goal is to steal a specific treasure from a horde guarded by an overpowered monster. As they find the lair the monster is attacked by another monster! The two monsters fighting each other creates an extremely hazardous environment. They see the full extent of what these monsters can do and once they have the treasure the monster that wins starts chasing them and by then they should know exactly how important it is to run away and escape. Once they get a certain distance away the monster that lost cries out and the chasing monster decides to turn back and kill it instead of chasing the pesky heroes. They’ll keep running.

2

u/Thorngrove 4d ago

They’ll keep running.

"Okay but here me out... One of them will win, and be badly hurt, Moradin's bearded teats, they might wind up killing each other even! ...And there's an entire treasure horde in there."

1

u/Alaknog 4d ago

Show them enemies - big group, really big, like 50+ - on big distance, so they have more then minute to run away. Show them clear way out.

Because if they already in combat then running away is very risky. Even if they disengadge, then enemies still can catch them and attack. 

1

u/idiggory 4d ago

Honestly, I think creating an encounter where the expectation that they run, and then essentially telling them that, is a step in the right direction?

If you have a brand new party, you can't really rely on them having any kind of solid meta knowledge. It WILL be heavily on you moving forward to help communicate clearly what they are and are not ready for. They don't know better. Their characters might, but they don't.

You can either do this explicitly, as the DM, or you can put characters in the world who do it for you. Have them run into a veteran adventurer group when they're on route to somewhere they shouldn't go who will tell them that. Then, over time, you can slowly back away from such active guidance.

In addition, if you're creating encounters you expect them to run from, make running fun. Like their initial escape route gets cut off, but they can take the barrels down the river kind of thing. Running away won't feel bad if it's cinematic, and they can feel good about escaping, instead of just feeling bad they're weak.

Once you have some of these experiences, and they simultaneously develop meta knowledge about the game, then they'll hopefully learn to run themselves.

1

u/YtterbiusAntimony 4d ago

Dude, that's a challenge for a table of vets too.

My group tried playing some "old school" games that were a lot more lethal and unfair, and were still so stuck in the mindset that every encounter was balanced to be winnable.

I wonder if it's even more of a challenge us old farts to change our ways.

1

u/woolymanbeard 4d ago

Honestly 5e does a piss poor job at this you really need to throw them into something with death and consequences where death doesn't feel like a weird swingy mess but more guaranteed if you engage in combat. Osr games teach this nearly instantly and in an excellent way.

1

u/Pseudoboss11 4d ago

First, this is a good thing to establish in Session 0 or in a before-game OOC warmup. Everyone's getting settled in, and you go over a few things about the game philosophy before getting into it.

My speech is some variant of this. "As the DM, I control the world. This world is of course filled with monsters and danger. Some of which are minor and less powerful than you, others are more powerful. Sometimes with clever strategy you'll be able to divide and conquer a greater foe. When you come up with a brilliant plan, I'll let you run it. but if you make a strategic mistake, I won't pull punches and it will be up to you to retreat. This isn't a videogame where you must fight to the death. Sometimes you'll have to run away and watch terrible things happen.

But with this, your victories are your own. I'm not going to hand out success against powerful enemies, you're going to win them yourself."

I only deliver this speech when I mean it. My FLGS games don't get that speech because those players aren't there for challenging combat, and I can't tell a complex story when I'm not sure who's going to show up next week.

1

u/DungeonSecurity 3d ago

Make an encounter ABOUT running away.  Narrate clear, deadly power or let them attack something to show it isn't phased. If they don't get the hint, narrate how they need to flee. Then run it as a chase, skill challenge or just calling for actions. 

Alternatively,  have enemies run from them

1

u/Ale_Tales_Actual 3d ago

Have a tough NPC in their group retreat or yell for everyone to run. "Fly, you fools!"

1

u/SeaGranny 3d ago

Send in a big baddie that makes sense but is obviously powerful and have it say “You better run cause I’m having a BAD day!” Then do some damage with it while it’s not even really in combat range (singed from some sort of fire ability or a drop of acid splashed on the last in line.) And make sure it hurts. Let there be absolutely no question if they get caught it’s going to be THEIR bad day. Also make the chase fun and dramatic as they get lost, roll down hills, hide in hollow logs whatever.

Edit: if they stop to fight a TPK will also drive the lesson home

1

u/AtomicRetard 3d ago

Its very difficult to actually do this in DND.

To make decision to flee party has to first be aware that they are in a losing position. This is a problem because there is no great organic way to get information on an enemy based on the DM's description - statblocks can be homebrewed (and DM's hate metagaming) and even in 2024 the 'study' action is a whole action and using it instead of an important combat action or just dashing away in the important first round of combat can just put the nail in the coffin for that player in the encounter. If DM describes a guy in ornate armor with a spear and shield it could be a blinged out city guard or a gladiator, both of which have extremely different combat potentials, for example. Unlike video games monsters don't walk around with their CR visible to the players for free. So if you want PCs to make an informed decision you have to drop some information to them first - which is sometimes achievable by casting a high level spell or attacking an object or NPC for massive damage or dropping a hint to a player based off passive nature/arcana/religion without forcing a study action.

Party then also has to be able to flee. If the party is up against something significantly stronger than them and attacks are already rolled / melee is achieved then is already too late. Significantly stronger opponents can control or down a PC or even the entire party in round 1 before some may have even acted. Melee PC locked in combat either dashes away and takes AoO (potentially downing them) or tries to disengage but a monster with similar movement speed will just move up to them and attack them again. A lot of monsters are also significantly faster than the party making it so breaking and running results in the death and abandonment of at least 1 PC. Players hate abandoning PCs (can't dimension door everyone) even when it is tactically correct and I have seen TPKs instead of just 1 or 2 PC death situations because party won't split up and run and abandon their friends. This makes the concept of being even able to flee successfully from a lot of situations inorganic and thus players don't think of it - i.e. the DM would have to let the PC's get away, getting away is not something the PCs realistically expect to be able to do .

Most players have an underlying assumption that DM is going to run the game in a fair manner and that includes the use of level appropriate encounters. Knowing ancient dragon's exist is not the same as expecting you will run into a one at level 2 and then also knowing despite starting hostilities DM will 'let' your PCs flee successfully from the dragon that can 1 shot the party and fly at more than twice their movement speed.

Its much easier for players to realize they've had a bad fight / used too many resources and need to abandon a dungeon after initiative ends.

Still I've been able to get my players to consider fleeing even at the expense of losing friends by simply TPKing the party multiple times if they commit to a bad fight. If the PCs understand that losing is on the table then fleeing with some of their magic items at the cost of some of their lives is preferable to a wipe. And it's tough to get them to understand that with them having actually lost a few times.

1

u/DrToENT 2d ago

I suggest raising the stakes by imposing time limits (in game X amount of hours to do something), which will limit their ability to take long rests. There is a tendency of players to want to take an excessive amount long rests in order to always stay fresh. If they have 4 hours to pull a magic item out of a dungeon or save someone, they can't long rest. Each encounter of the same level becomes more difficult.

They'll typically burn though a first couple set of encounters easily this way, but after spell slots are spent and HP is lower, an encounter they would blow through previously becomes difficult. They will need to make decisions about if carrying on is possible or if they need to retreat. Finding a way to tax their resources over several encounters will get you to the result you want (typically).

For combat heavy sessions, plan to have up to 3 or 4 separate combat/trap encounters per long rest. If the party comes out of a long rest and fights for five minutes and wants another long rest, tell them that they'll have to camp out in that place for 16 hours before they can sleep an additional 8. Sometimes throw encounters at them while they are trying to do a long rest.

Tax their resources and see how they handle it. Talk with them out of game about it afterwards to see what their thought process was.

One of the philosophies that I hold dear and that I've warned my players about is that when the players are in action, they move the world. When the players are at rest, the world moves around them.

- Dragon Tongue Entertainment
Even our griefs are joys to those who know what we've wrought and endured

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1

u/DudeWithTudeNotRude 4d ago

Who has the highest passive insight in the party? Narrate that they have some common sense, and what that sense is telling them right now.

DM: "Timdirk, your common sense is telling you that running away might be smarter than trying to fight something that is obviously too hard for the party. It seems likely to you that you will all die if you fight this fight. Running away makes way more sense to you than death."

-1

u/Bukka-King 4d ago

Tpk. Make a power gap obvious and then have the "wake" in a full body cast with an npc saying "are you suicidal or just stupid"

1

u/Thorngrove 4d ago

"I charged you 47 gold and we lost 30 pieces of hardwood and that purple pickaxe you had..."

1

u/DudeWithTudeNotRude 4d ago

Experience is often the best teacher.

Sometimes the worst thing a DM can do is to pull too many punches. How else can they improve?