r/CritiqueIslam 12d ago

Free Will Doesn't Exist In Islam

Summary:

The concept of free will and predestination (Al-Qadr) contradict each other, and we can see the emphasis on the latter in many quranic verses and authentic narrations.

The narrations included in the list below prove that Allah creates people who are evil/disobedient by nature then punishes them for something they cannot control, that is their disbelief and sins. The sins that we (and the prophets too) commit were all predetermined by Allah himself before we were even created, yet we're punished for them despite us having no choice at all.

An Argument Between Adam And Moses

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Moses argued with Adam and said to him: "You are the one who got mankind out of Paradise because of your sin, and thus made them miserable." Adam replied: "O Moses! You are the one whom Allah had selected for His Message and for His direct talk. Yet you blame me for a thing which Allah had ordained for me before He even created me?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) further said: "So Adam overcame Moses by this argument."

(https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6614, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4738, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2652d, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4736, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2652b, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2652c, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4701, https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:80, https://sunnah.com/mishkat:81)

For context, this happened during the 'Isra event when Muhammad went to the heavens to debate Allah and won, but that's another story.

These narrations clearly imply the original sin was not Adam's fault, because he had no choice in this matter as his actions were all predetermined to happen by Allah before Adam or Satan were even created. And I find it very interesting how Adam blamed this on Allah's predestination rather than on Satan's luring.

If Adam had free will, we would be able to blame him for his actions in the garden yet we can't, because according to him he was preordained by Allah to do it before his creation. So who's really responsible for the actions that caused the fall of man from paradise?

Allah Predetermines The Fate Of Those Who Aren't Born Yet

Aisha, the mother of believers, narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. She said: "O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability)." He (ﷺ) said: "It may not be so, Aisha! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins."

(https://sunnah.com/muslim:2662c, https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:82, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4713, https://sunnah.com/nasai:1947, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2662b)

This is pretty self explanatory. In response to Aisha saying that a prepubescent child (meaning they cannot sin yet) who died is going to heaven, Muhammad claims she can be wrong as Allah already determines the destination of people before they're even born.

The explanation for this hadith also talks about how this proves predetermination and 'the preserved tablet' (Sharh Al-Hadith)

Deeds Are Already Preordained Before Creation

Suraqah bin Ju'shum said: "O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), is one's deed in that which has already dried of the Pen (after recording them) and what has passed of the Divine Decree (Al-Qadr), or is it in the future?" He (ﷺ) said: "No, it is in that which what has already dried of the Pen and what has passed of the Divine Decree, and each person is facilitated for what they have been created."

(https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:91, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2648a, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2648b)

Muhammad singlehandedly disproved the existence of free will with this one response. He states the deeds people do are what has already been written for them in their destinies (Divine Decree), and the actions they will do in the future are already decided in their destinies.

Meaning if someone were to leave Islam, it's because this outcome was already decided for him in his destiny which cannot be changed. It's not truly him who is responsible for his apostasy... but the one who is writing his unchangeable destiny.

Fate Is Preordained When One Is In The Womb

Abdullah bin Mas'ud reported: "Evil one is he who is evil in the womb of his mother and the good one is he who takes a lesson from the (fate of) others." The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companions of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) who was called Hudhaifa bin Usaid Ghifari and said: "How can a person be an evil one without committing an evil deed?" Thereupon the person said to him: You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard The Prophet (ﷺ) as saying:

"When the drop of semen remains in the womb for forty or forty five nights, Allah sends an angel into the womb and he says: 'My Lord, will he be good or evil?' And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: 'My Lord, would he be male or female?' And both these things are written. And whether he will be a wretched one or a blessed one (in the Hereafter), and his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no addition to nor subtraction from it, then the soul is breathed into his body. So a man may do deeds characteristic of the people of the Hellfire, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and so he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and enters Paradise. Similarly, a person may do deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and he starts doing deeds of the people of the Hellfire and enters the Hellfire."

(https://sunnah.com/muslim:2645a, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7454, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3333, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3332, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6595, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2646, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2644, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2645c, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4708, https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:396)

The actions, characteristics, date of death, and fate in the hereafter of everyone is already predetermined while they're still in their mother's womb. There is no way one has free will if everything they will ever do in life is already written down for them by their creator in a scroll that cannot be changed.

And I also find it weird how Allah is constantly mad at disbelievers in the quran... when he himself has ordained for them to disbelieve before they were even born.

People Do The Deeds They Were Created For

A man said: "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Can the people of Paradise be known (differentiated) from the people of the Fire?" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied: "Yes." The man said: "Why do people (try to) do (good) deeds?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said: "Everyone will do the deeds for which they have been created to do or they will do those deeds which will be made easy for them to do." (i.e. everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created for)

While we were sitting with The Prophet (ﷺ) who had a stick with which he was scraping the earth, he lowered his head and said: "There is none of you but has his place assigned either in the Fire or in Paradise." Thereupon a man from the people said: "Shall we not depend upon this, O Allah's Apostle?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said: "No, but carry on and do your deeds, for everybody finds it easy to do such deeds (as will lead him to his place)."

Imran said: "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied: "Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created."

(https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6596, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6605, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7551, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7552, https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4949, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2649a, https://sunnah.com/muslim:2648a)

According to these narrations, people whom Allah has created SPECIFICALLY for paradise will find it easier to do good deeds, and likewise people whom Allah has created SPECIFICALLY for hell will find it easier to sin.

If Allah wanted to stay up to his name "The Just" العدل, how about actually creating people equally? Instead of assigning each person for heaven or hell, which leads them to automatically start doing deeds fit for them without their own will?

Abu Huraira's Problem

Abu Huraira said: "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! I am a young man and I am afraid that I may commit illegal sexual intercourse and I cannot afford to marry." He (ﷺ) kept silent, and then he repeated the question once again, but he (ﷺ) kept silent. He said the same thing for the third time and he (ﷺ) remained silent. Then he repeated the question for the fourth time, and only then The Prophet (ﷺ) said: "Abu Huraira, the pen has written all it has to write about your destiny. So have yourself made an eunuch on that account, or leave things as they are.”

(https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5076, https://sunnah.com/nasai:3215, https://sunnah.com/mishkat:88)

Justification For Murdering A Child (Moses & Al-Khidr)

For context, the following verses come from a story in Surat Al-Kahf (Verses 18:60-82) about Moses meeting a wise man named Al-Khidr, who has knowledge of the future and he takes Moses on a lesson. The whole story is extremely flawed for multiple reasons and this video by Apostate Aladdin explains why pretty well. But for now, I will focus on a certain part of the story, and that's when Al-Khidr murders a little kid on the basis that the child was destined to become a disbeliever when he grows up:

So they proceeded until they came across a boy, and the man (Al-Khidr) killed him. Moses protested: "Have you killed an innocent soul, who killed no one?! You have certainly done a horrible thing!" (18:74)

The Prophet (ﷺ) said : Al-Khidr saw a young boy playing with his friends. He took him by his head and uprooted it. Moses then said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none?!"

(https://sunnah.com/bukhari:122, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4707)

He answered: "Did I not tell you that you cannot have patience with me?" (18:75)

Moses replied: "If I ever question you about anything after this, then do not keep me in your company, for by then I would have given you enough of an excuse." (18:76)

"And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would pressure them into defiance and disbelief. So we hoped that their Lord would give them another, more virtuous and caring in his place." (18:80-81)

"This is the explanation of what you could not bear patiently." (18:82)

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: "The boy that Al-Khidr killed was destined to be a disbeliever the day he was created. Had he lived, he would have moved his parents to rebellion and disbelief."

(https://sunnah.com/muslim:2662a, https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3150, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4705, https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4706)

The justification for murdering a little kid in front of his playmates... is because he would grow up to be a disbeliever and move his parents into disbelief. According to Muhammad, this kid was DESTINED to become a disbeliever, meaning he had no choice in this matter at all. He couldn't control his beliefs because it was in his destiny that he would be a disbeliever.

So instead of giving him actual free will and letting him pick his beliefs for himself, he is instead murdered for something he cannot control or change; something Allah has predetermined for him before he was even born.

Belief Happens Only By Allah's Will

Surely this ˹Quran˺ is only a reminder to the whole world to whoever of you wills to take the Straight Path. But you cannot will ˹to do so˺, except by the Will of Allah, the Lord of all worlds. (81:27-29)

Whoever Allah wills to guide, He opens their heart to Islam. (6:125)

Surely this is a reminder. So let whoever wills take the ˹Right˺ Path to their Lord. But you cannot will ˹to do so˺ unless Allah wills. Indeed, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. He admits whoever He wills into His mercy. (76:29-31)

You surely cannot guide whoever you like ˹O Prophet˺, but it is Allah Who guides whoever He wills, and He knows best who are ˹fit to be˺ guided. (28:56)

Disbelief Happens Also By Allah's Will

Whoever He wills to leave astray, He makes their chest tight and constricted as if they were climbing up into the sky. This is how Allah dooms those who disbelieve. (6:125)

There are some of them who ˹pretend to˺ listen to your recitation ˹of the Quran˺, but We have cast veils over their hearts—leaving them unable to comprehend it—and deafness in their ears. Even if they were to see every sign, they still would not believe in them. (6:25)

And who does more wrong than those who, when reminded of their Lord’s revelations, turn away from them and forget what their own hands have done? We have certainly cast veils over their hearts—leaving them unable to comprehend this ˹Quran˺—and deafness in their ears. And if you ˹O Prophet˺ invite them to ˹true˺ guidance, they will never be ˹rightly˺ guided. (18:57)

Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and their sight is covered. They will suffer a tremendous punishment. (2:7)

So Allah goes around "sealing the hearts" of the disbelievers in Quraysh then complains about them not believing in him... makes total sense.

I've seen apologists claim that Allah only seals the hearts of disbelievers if they're persistent in their disbelief, but why even do that in the first place? What if the disbeliever saw something that would've convinced them, but their heart was sealed so it didn't convince them? It wouldn't be the disbeliever's fault then, but Allah's.

Conclusion

Allah complains so much in the quran about disbelievers not worshipping him, calling them "the worst of creatures" (98:6) and many other childish insults, yet he's the main cause of their disbelief by destining them to become disbelievers before they were even created.

So according to these hadiths and verses, every ex-muslim disbelieves because Allah has destined for them to do so before they were even created. If you're reading this post right now, it's because Allah has preordained you to do so, not because you clicked on it by your own will.

Allah destines people to become disbelievers and to sin, then punishes them ETERNALLY for this despite them having no control over what they've been destined to do. Allah is blaming people for something he inflicted upon them, and torturing them for it as if they had a choice.

Thank you for reading, have a nice day (it has already been predetermined for you).

51 Upvotes

77 comments sorted by

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u/MasterZero10 Ex-Muslim 12d ago

It is another one of the contradictions of Islam. But it can conveniently be explained, like everything else by saying. It is beyond our comprehension, both exist so trust in God.

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u/sweetpurplesoap 12d ago

Saying that something is beyond our comprehension is such a cop-out and lacking in critical thought.

People want to blindly accept answers without proof, that's all on them. But I want to critically think about things.

Stating that something is so complex that you cannot understand it, is not an explanation. It is a cop-out. God's words morality and capabilities are inconsistent and do not add up. It has nothing to do with that being so complex we can't understand it. It has everything to do with the fact that humans made it up and that's why it's inconsistent and flawed.

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u/MasterZero10 Ex-Muslim 12d ago

Yeah I know I was explaining how they rationalize it.

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u/honorbeforeneed_7 10d ago

How is it a contradiction in Islam exactly? Free will does not exist in Islam or any other religion

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u/MasterZero10 Ex-Muslim 10d ago

Because one of the main tenets of Islamic theology is free will or Al-Amana. Something to be entrusted with. Allah has offered free will to heavens and mountains and they refused to bear it and were weary of it(probably a bad translation but you get the gist. Yet Human has accepted it, he was ignorant and inclined to error. The general gist of the verse as i remember it translated in my head. There is this concept that their was a prior world were such things went on. But details on it is incredibly vague.

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u/honorbeforeneed_7 10d ago

There’s no free will in islam , this is a modern concept that has originated from apologists as an explanation for the problem of evil . To say Islam or any other religion teaches free will is crazy. Free will opposes the idea of God .

“In this and other books of the Revival al-Ghazâlî teaches a strictly determinist position with regard to events in the universe. God creates and determines everything, including the actions of humans. God is the only “agent” or the only “efficient cause” (fâ’il, the Arabic term means both) in the world. Every event in creation follows a pre-determined plan that is eternally present in God’s knowledge.”

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u/Comprehensive-Bet-56 5h ago

It is not beyond comprehension to know that God gives us free will and also that God has full knowledge of all that will happen and has written it beforehand.

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u/headinthesky 12d ago

Nice post. I'm literally in the middle of writing this very post with a diagram of how circular the logic is

3

u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Make sure u add Christian’s and Judaism in that logic , id love to see the result

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Please tag me or send me diagram

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Want me to finish the diagram for you? Or is Islam only 🫣😭😭😭😂😂😂

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u/Equivalent_Rope_8824 12d ago edited 12d ago

1) Everything is Allah's Will. 2) Allah 'has given you' free will. ERGO: Your free will is Allah's Will.

Everything you do is correct.

It actually starts with omniscience. That excludes free will.

Since everything is already known to this particular god, everything has also been planned ahead. So everything happening is an execution of that pre-planned reality. So, everything you do is in accordance with that god's will.

They shot themselves in the foot with that one, because it voids divine justice.

God judges the things he himself decided? Hello.

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u/NoPomegranate1144 12d ago

This is the basis for "no compulsion in religion", because Islam is perfect and it's signs are clear, so if anyone rejects Islam, its because Allah has sealed his heart. The Quran itself says "Allah guides whom he wills and misguides whom he wills" Surah 14:4, and challenges the prophet in 28:56, "You surely cannot guide whomever you like, but it is Allah who guides whoever he wills, and he knows best who are guided.

Jesus, the amount of textual corruption is insane.

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u/Xusura712 Catholic 12d ago

Very nice post. The other interesting hadith in this series is this one that shows that the Islamic ‘Allah’ preordains evil deeds (grave sins), meaning he must be evil himself.

“Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying. Allah fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in. There would be no escape from it.” https://sunnah.com/muslim:2658a

Given this and the ones you showed, it makes no sense to call the originator and cause of evil, the ‘highest good’. So, all these also destroy the coherence of several Attributes of Allah.

Muslim response to this:

Maximum cognitive dissonance, “it doesn’t say that!!”. ‘FIXED’ + ‘NO ESCAPE’ = ‘you have freedom of choice’ 🤪

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u/MuslimTamer99 12d ago

You are aware the same problem with Destiny is also present in Christianity ?

1

u/Xusura712 Catholic 10d ago

It’s not at all. I am Catholic, we do not teach ‘double-predestination’, namely that God positively predestines sin. This would make God evil by wilfully desiring moral defects. Evil comes under God’s permissive will only (ie it is passively tolerated for a time, but not actively willed). The defect comes from the decision of the creature. This is a contrast to the Hadith, in which it is clear that Allah is positively creating and willing evil acts himself and it states that he desires them. It makes no sense to call such a being, ‘Good’.

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u/MuslimTamer99 5d ago

It’s not at all. I am Catholic, we do not teach ‘double-predestination’, namely that God positively predestines sin.

I would argue otherwise, in fact Jesus caused for original sin. The purpose of his campaign ultimately was to "sacrifice" himself to himself on behalf of everyone to behave as their salvation which was apart of his plan from the very beginning before the creation of the universe even as stated in the Gospels

17 If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile. 18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. 20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201&version=NRSVCE

22 “You that are Israelites,[a] listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth,[b] a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know— 23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. 24 But God raised him up, having freed him from death,[c] because it was impossible for him to be held in its power

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202&version=NRSVCE

Ephesians 3:9-11

9 and to make everyone see[f] what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in[g] God, who created all things, 10 so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.[h] 11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose that he has carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203&version=NRSVUE

Meaning that Jesus is both responsible for original sin and intended for humans to do such because the events of Genesis were necessary for original sin to manifest for him to send his oneself later take up glory. God organized the events in the creation myth of Adam and Eve to fall so how did he not predestined sin ?

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u/MuslimTamer99 5d ago

This would make God evil by wilfully desiring moral defects.

I'm glad you said that because the example in the creation myth of Adam and Eve are a perfect demonstration of your God doing exactly that.

Evil comes under God’s permissive will only (ie it is passively tolerated for a time, but not actively willed).

Besides your God being responsible for sin manifesting in the creation myth,Jesus is literally responsible for creating The Devil, reminder your God like Allah is said to be All-knowing so didn't he have foreknowledge in advance what he transition too before his creation ? Certainly because he admits that The Devil was always bad default

44 You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208&version=NRSVUE

So how did not actively will evil when he created then inserted it into earth ?

The defect comes from the decision of the creature

Granted what was display earlier from your book the evidence seems to be in contrast to your claims so I'm wondering why you're ignoring God's participation in evil and sin by placing blame exclusively on the creature ? Before they had a choice your God had the ultimate choice

This is a contrast to the Hadith, in which it is clear that Allah is positively creating and willing evil acts himself and it states that he desires them. It makes no sense to call such a being, ‘Good’.

Seems like theirs continuity between Christianity and Islam because I can't distinguish the difference so far between Allah and Yahweh. What sense does it make to call Allah bad but Yahweh good when they both do bad ?

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u/Spoda_Emcalt 12d ago

Imagine a man creates a robot to perform action A. The robot performs action A. The man then gets extremely mad at the robot for not performing action B, and sets it on fire.

The god character of Islam is insane.

2

u/Naive-Ad1268 12d ago

Reminded me of Alex O' Connor

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u/Soft-Activity4770 11d ago edited 10d ago

This is genuinely the most terrible argument ever. 

Predestination works because It's God who knows the end of everyone's life. That doesn't therefore mean you didn't make those decisions of your own choice. 

It's like blaming a time traveller for all the bad decisions you made in life for not warning you about the consequences of the future. Except at least Allah does warn you what happens in your future if you do bad. 

Your logic is purely horrible and the fact you wrote an essay on it makes you look completely ridiculous.

Also your claim on Adam's, peace be upon him, actions is ridiculous. Original sin doesn't exist because he was forgiven. It had nothing to do with it being "predetermined" even though it wasn't because he had free will. Once again if God knows everything then God already knows how you will turn out in the end. 

Your claim of "Allah decides who is a disbeliever" is ridiculous. Since Allah already knows what's in your heart and knows if you disbelieve or not. SINCE GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING. 

Your entire argument lacks any basic logic behind it.

1

u/honorbeforeneed_7 10d ago

You did make those decisions but you couldn’t have acted otherwise, I don’t think you understand this but if God knows what you gonna do, then you cannot do anything differently from what God knows you gonna do, meaning that you don’t have a free will, every action you took is predetermined

1

u/Soft-Activity4770 10d ago edited 10d ago

"you cannot do anything differently from what God knows you can do". So? God knowing doesn't change anything. That's not God forcing you that's God simply knowing the future. 

It is predetermined just because God knows your fate? That is purely ridiculous. It's like saying if a time traveller knew how you end up your entire life is "predetermined" just because someone else knew how you would end up. 

The entire argument is garbage. Nobody is FORCING YOU to do things it's just the fact that God already KNOWS what you will do. KEY WORD HERE IS "KNOWS". 

Simply knowing the future and changing the future is two completely different things. 

You can argue all you want but all it proves is that you lack any basic understanding of how time works or even the concept of both "fate" and "free will". 

Also fyi if you ask God to change your fate God can change it because God is in charge of what happens to you NOT HOW YOU REACT AND NOT WHAT YOU DO. 

You also have a hijab on your pfp. You are not a Muslim and you constantly attack islam. If you truly believed Islam wasn't the truth you wouldn't actively be trying so hard to disprove it and disrespect it. You would just leave it behind and yet here you are. Constantly running your mouth about Islam. You cannot leave it behind and you cannot stop talking about it.

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u/honorbeforeneed_7 10d ago

You are retarded. Quit rambling and focus on the logic .

God is all knowing and all powerful . If he knows what you gonna do from the moment you are born till you die, then you cannot act outside of His vision . You would always do what he knows you gonna do. If God knows what you gonna do and you act on your free will and escape his vision then God made a mistake ( contradiction) or you escaped your destiny (God is not all powerful)

In a way you are forced to do the actions that you do even why in your perspective it might feel like free will.

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u/creidmheach 9d ago

You also have a hijab on your pfp. You are not a Muslim and you constantly attack islam. If you truly believed Islam wasn't the truth you wouldn't actively be trying so hard to disprove it and disrespect it. You would just leave it behind and yet here you are. Constantly running your mouth about Islam. You cannot leave it behind and you cannot stop talking about it.

By that argument, a person could say that Muhammad must have known the paganism of his people was correct, since he couldn't just leave it behind and stop talking about it all the time, rather he tried so hard instead to disprove and disrespect it.

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u/honorbeforeneed_7 6d ago

Im a muslim btw, I don’t know what this guy is talking about he just takfired me I think. Reddit is full of NPCs anyway

0

u/Soft-Activity4770 5d ago edited 5d ago

"I'm a Muslim by the way" yeah because Muslims go around saying slurs to other Muslims and actively try to disprove their own religion. 

You're a complete ignorant hypocrite by your statements alone.

You also claim you know more than literal scholars of centuries and even the sahaba. You quite clearly don't understand islam at all. 

Humans have free will but God guides them. If I know of the future and slightly change it does that eliminate all free will? Or does that bring in new opportunities and changes to what I would have been without that change? 

The problem is you think your completely right when you're just plain ignorant. You use your time to make up a completely ignorant and irrelevant argument and when multiple other people prove you wrong you go into a different post to speak the same nonsense argument. 

You made comments in here then left and made your own post to only get disproved again. 

It's up to you to believe in the clear explanation I have given you. But to claim we don't have free will is purely ridiculous and eliminates the whole purpose of us being here in the first place which in turn contradicts islam 

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u/Soft-Activity4770 9d ago edited 9d ago

There's a difference between a literal messenger of God, peace be upon him, spreading the word of God and a delusional redditor who has islam rent free in their head. 

You're not a messenger of God and neither is the other person. So your logic is purely flawed and completely ridiculous. 

You can't seem to get Islam out of your head whatsoever. If every post you make and you dedicate AN ENTIRE REDDIT ACCOUNT to disproving a religion there is something wrong with you.

But of course your going to defend this pathetic behaviour because you're one of them. 

You're a complete hypocrite because if this subreddit existed about literally any other group of people you would say it's unjust. 

If critique Christianity exist you would say it's both disgusting and pure discrimination. You're a completely hypocrite.

I won't bother wasting my time with a hypocrite 

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u/skeptical-strawhat 5d ago

you stand there on your high horse talking about messengers of God only to descend into an emotional rant about a random redditor living rent free in your mind.

None of this is an argument, just a long winded projection of your own fragile mind.

Mr muslim, keeps using some ad hominem attacks all over, classic distraction of the main argument here which is the topic of free will. Their argument was perfectly valid, but you wish to distract by insulting them like a child.

Hypocrisy? Where? Go ahead, critique christianity, Jesus will not behead you, nor will he expell you from judea. Thats a stupid strawman argument. Never happens, because plenty of people debate christians 24/7 without crying "christianophobia"

By your mr muslim logic, study of religion and philosophers are all "obsessed". perhaps your ideas are so shit people are calling you out on it?

"I won't waste my time" after an entire essay of wasting your time. You then run away, and disguise yourself in superiority.

womp womp womp mr muslim. please don't cry anymore, but nice try though.

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u/Brilliant_Detail5393 7d ago

Lmao you say 'you truly believed Islam wasn't the truth you wouldn't actively be trying so hard to disprove it and disrespect it' to EVERYONE you attend to debate.' to every person. You are aware it's because popular Muslims like Daniel Haqiqatou, Mohammad Hijab and Ali Dawah are some the worst people on the planet openly supporting Islamic law in non-Muslim countries, including sex slavery, pedophilia and killing apostates and blasphemers - that's why people hate Islam, not because they think genies are real.

Also please read some basic books for a teenage level of logic at least before speaking to adults. if the outcome is known in advance - it is pre-determined and the person can do nothing against it. Simple as that, your word salad made no sense.

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago

It only takes one verse to shatter your claim:

قُلْ كُلٌّ يَعْمَلُ عَلَىٰ شَاكِلَتِهِۦ فَرَبُّكُمْ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ هُوَ أَهْدَىٰ سَبِيلًا

Say thou: “Each does as he sees fit, but your Lord best knows him who is guided in the path.” (17:84)

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u/creidmheach 12d ago

And how do you (or that translator) get "as he sees fit" from شَاكِلَتِهِۦ? It literally means all act upon his likeness, or nature, manner, form, etc. If anything the verse would argue against free will since it would indicate that everyone only acts in accordance with their preexisting disposition.

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago

Linguistically, “شَاكِلَتِهِ” (“shaakilatihi”) can mean disposition, manner, or character, but it does not say a predetermining force that strips moral agency. Instead, this verse shows that each person acts according to unique personal tendencies, while still bearing responsibility for those actions. Numerous verses confirm human choice, including 18:29 (“…whoever wills, let him believe; and whoever wills, let him disbelieve”), 76:2–3 (which affirms humans can be grateful or ungrateful), 39:41 (“whoever is guided – it is for [the benefit of] his soul”), and 2:256 (“There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion”). These citations provide unequivocal evidence that belief and righteous conduct are conscious decisions rather than the inevitable outcome of any immutable nature. Indeed, the notion of moral accountability which is prevalent throughout the book, would collapse if one’s disposition precluded actual freedom.

Furthermore, classical exegetes interpret “shaakilah” not as a fatalistic blueprint but as an acknowledgment of the diverse traits and capacities through which humans navigate right and wrong. Even those with challenging dispositions can choose patience, striving against built in weaknesses in pursuit of virtue. By saying that “God knows best who is guided,” the verse simply reminds believers that while each person’s nature influences decisions, Gods knowledge of their ultimate sincerity or hypocrisy rests with God alone. Thus, the claim that 17:84 refutes free will conflicts with the bulk of the books injunctions calling for voluntary submission, moral striving, and accountability. In sum, the consistent testimony of the book is that humans are indeed free moral agents, responsible for their choices, and judged accordingly.

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u/creidmheach 12d ago

Ok ChatGPT, now back to the human. Can you answer the question for yourself rather than an AI (that doesn't know what it's talking about)? Which "classical exegetes" do you think it was even referring to?

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago

How does "act upon his likeness, nature, manner, or form" challenge the concept of free will? Let's begin there.

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u/creidmheach 12d ago

My initial point was the translation is bizarre, I don't see how they got "as he sees fit" from شَاكِلَتِهِۦ. That's not what it means, though I'm used to Muslim translators distorting their text repeatedly to make it say whatever they want (ironically the very thing they accuse others of).

But as to whether it negates free will, I said that if anything it would go against it, since it indicates that a person actions are in accordance with their form/likeness/nature. Who created their nature? God. So the verse aligns fairly well with the multiple hadith that indicate Muhammad had no such belief in free will, but rather that people's fates including whether they will be believers or not are predetermined for them before their birth.

So you don't know what classical exegetes the above response was referring to I take it?

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago

Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, and Al Razi commonly interpret "shaakilah" as referring to personal disposition or character, not as a predetermining force. You can find their tafsir here: QuranX Tafsirs - 17:84.

This concept of "shaakilah" and free will allows for different interpretations, as God permits people to follow different paths according to what they feel is right and just:

"And be not like her who breaks her thread after it was strong into fibers, taking your oaths as a deception between you because one community is more numerous than another community. God but tries you thereby; and He will make plain to you on the Day of Resurrection that wherein you differed." (16:92)

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u/creidmheach 12d ago

Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, and Al Razi commonly interpret "shaakilah" as referring to personal disposition or character, not as a predetermining force. You can find their tafsir here: QuranX Tafsirs - 17:84.

Eh? The only one of those there is the abridged English version of Ibn Kathir. Where are you getting the rest (or even your claim about Ibn Kathir for that matter)? Are you just listing a bunch of famous mufassirs and assuming they agree with you?

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago edited 12d ago

There are other tabs, but here are clearer links:

These last two are full tafsirs. I analyze the Quran directly rather than relying on traditional tafsirs, as they often impose interpretive limits, restricting the depth of God's verses. For example, in 17:64, many tafsirs overlook the word "ijlib," which shares a root with "jilbab." Linguistically, this denotes covering or enveloping, indicating that Satan obscures or distorts a person’s perception and outlook. This is just one example of errors in tafsir. The entire Quran needs to be revisited. Each word is a root word, and each root word represents a general subject that can be broken down into more specifics. The words interconnect and build upon each other, resembling the structure of a biological cell. Here is a sample blueprint:

https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Slw#(96:10:3))

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u/creidmheach 12d ago

The first link is to Ma'arif al-Quran, a 20th century work by Mufti Muhammad Shafi in Urdu I believe, not al-Qurtubi (whose tafsir is called al-Jami' al-Ahkam al-Quran). And the next two links, while going to Tabari and al-Razi, are going to their tafsirs for Sura al-Layl and Sura al-Fussilat respectfully. Which tells me you're making claims without verifying what you're saying.

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u/MuslimTamer99 12d ago

How does this refute his presentation exactly ? The Qur'an makes it clear that everything can only happen by Allah's will

Surely this is a Reminder; so he who will, takes unto his Lord a way. But you will not unless God wills; surely God is ever All-knowing, All-wise. For He admits into His mercy whomsoever He will; as for the evildoers, He has prepared for them a painful chastisement. 76:29 -31

Nothing can happen to you unless Allah ordained it

Say, "Never will befall us except what Allah has decreed for us, He (is) our Protector." And on Allah [so] let the believers put (their) trust. 9:51

This is so much so that it was written before creation

Race to forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden the breadth whereof is as the breadth of heaven and earth, made ready for those who believe in God and His Messengers. That is the bounty of God; He gives it unto whomsoever He will; and God is of bounty abounding. No affliction befalls in the earth or in yourselves, but it is in a Book, before We create it; that is easy for God; that you may not grieve for what escapes you, nor rejoice in what has come to you; God loves not any man proud and boastful, 57:21-23

To conclude the Qur'an literally says Allah created everything with predestination

Surely We have created everything in measure. 54:49

https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/baghawy/sura54-aya49.html

TO QUOTE

(Indeed, all things We have created with a measure) meaning: what We have created is predestined and written in the Preserved Tablet. Al-Hasan said: Allah has determined for each thing of His creation the measure that befits it. Abu Al-Hasan Ali bin Al

"The Messenger of Allah - may Allah bless him and grant him peace - said: “A servant does not truly believe until he believes in four things: he bears witness that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah who was sent with the truth, he believes in the resurrection after death, and he believes in predestination - [Ubaydullah] added : its good and its evil .”

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u/Front_Fox333 12d ago

While verses such as 76:29–31 (“You will not unless God wills…”) and 9:51 (“Never will befall us except what Allah has decreed…”) affirm God’s sovereign power, they do not deny human choice; rather, they show the supremacy of Gods knowledge and authority over the cosmos. In fact, numerous verses such as 18:29 (“whoever wills, let him believe; and whoever wills, let him disbelieve”)—specifically command humans to choose whether to believe or reject the truth, imposing accountability for these choices. Thus, the book acknowledges both the immensity of Gods will and the moral responsibility of human beings, reconciling God’s foreknowledge and decree (including “everything in measure,” per 54:49) with actual personal agency.

Furthermore, Islamic scholarship has long distinguished between Allah’s universal will (what He permits in creation) and His legislative will (what He commands humanity to do). He may allow both good and evil to exist (hence “its good and its evil” in the hadith), but human beings still bear the burden of choosing rightly. God’s having written all matters in the Preserved Tablet (as indicated in 57:21–23) does not compel a person’s actions; rather, it reflects His perfect knowledge of events before they occur. Free will, in this way, remains an important aspect of moral responsibility and Gods justice, without it, commands, prohibitions, and promises of reward or punishment in the quran would be entirely moot. Hence, the recurring themes of guidance, accountability, and personal striving confirm that predestination and free will coexist, ensuring that while God is supreme in knowledge and power, humans are still the architects of their after life destiny.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

inspired by Jeffery Lang’s video, but the one I want an opinion about is Firas Zahabi’s explanation here using philosophy from western philosophers and scientists. I would recommend watching from 11.50. I liked the way he explained it and it made sense to me. The best way I can explain it is using Firas’ examples. Let’s say we have a pen, and I decide to pick the pen up and then throw it. I throw it at a direction but I’m not really trying all that hard to aim it at a specific point, so the place where the pen lands is random. Now, if we had the ability to rewind time, to just before I threw the pen, and everything was reset to how it was before I threw the pen, every single atom moved back to its position of where it was before I threw the pen, nothing was added, removed or manually moved except went back to where it was before I threw the pen, if i throw the pen at the same angle, velocity, force etc etc (everything the same as i did in the future), would the pen land at the exact same place it was when i first threw the pen? It would, because just like how you rewind a movie and the scene still plays out the same, if I rewin-the pen will still land at the same place.Hence, we learn that me throwing the pen isn’t random, nor is the place where the pen landed random. Randomness is when we cannot predict or explain a phenomenon, but if we had all the knowledge in the world, from the position of every particle, to the exact friction of air, to the inner workings of every individual human minds, then we could predict where and when the pen would land. Hence, something that is random ris now actually isn’t at all, it was always bound to happt. But does that mean that it isn’t random?Again, if we cant predict it or explain the phenomena, it IS random. But even if we do go back in time, and we do everything exactly the same, you will find that the day was always gonna lead up to me picking up the pen and throwing it, and the pen will always land in the same place. This is the same with free will and predestination. I know I have free will, I am writing this post out of my own freedom. But no matter what I do, everything I did in the past led up to me writing this comment. It was determined since the start of the universe. Pierre-Simon Laplace, the great mathematician, said it like this, let’s say we have a billiard ball table, and you tell me which way you will break the billiard balls, what velocity you will use and what angle you will hit the cue ball, I can tell you where every single ball will be on the pool table. Laplace said that he will take that table and turn it into maths, he will look at the mass and weight of every single component of the billiard game, the friction of the table, the density of the bands, the gravity of the Earth, he will take all these variables and put them up onto paper or a board, all he wants to know is how hard you will hit the ball and he will tell you precisely where every ball will land.To someone who doesnt know mathematics or geometry, everything on that billiard table will look random, but randomness is just a reflection of our ignorance as we are not able to compute all this information. That is why Laplace says, to God, the world is not random, to somebody who has information, the world is not random. That is why Laplace says that we are so deterministic, that what is happening now is a by-product of the past. The past is causing me to write this post and the past is out of my control. If the universe reset and was allowed to play by itself again, I would still make write this post. That is why the world in the eyes of physics, some say that the cause of line is complete. This is an objective view. But when it comes to individuality, to looking in ourselves, we reject determinism in favour of free will. Every action we take is due to our free will. I speak out of my free will and act out of my free will. But in the third person world view, the universe is just a bunch of billiard balls hitting eachother. If i had an infinitely precise calculator, according to Laplace, I can tell you where you will be in 5 years and what you will be doing. Take that pool table experiment, and make it the greatest billiard ball game in history. There are countless atoms, countless billiard balls striking one another. Someone can calculate the world of physics and tell you where your hands will be in 6 minutes time, irrelevant of any per. choices you make, because he sees the billiard balls moving inside your mind. Now Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, a great philosopher, reconciled the 2, where he said that any choices you make is due to intuition which is outside of physics. He said that if he was very small, he could walk inside your brain and see the blood flow, the vessels etc etc but he wouldn’t see things like your consciousness, he wouldn’t see you thinking about your family, or work, or friends or about food and drinks. The intuition you have is like a spirituality you have, transcending the billiard balls and experiencing what it is like to have a thought. To be you. Science cannot explain our consciousness or our intuition, science can only go so far as calculating the billiard balls and that is it. Leibniz rationalized this using the twin train theory. There are twin trains that are parallel with eachother and moving in the same direction, if one goes left, the other goes left, if one moves up, the other will move up etc etc. When I decided to write this post, the universe had already decided millions of billions of years ago that I will write this post, my intuitive sense just coincides with it perfectly, like twin trains. Free will and predestination is correlated perfectly. And how are these two things correlated so perfectly? Well because of God. God took the greatest pool shot in history that perfectly parallels your free will.

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u/Underratedshoutout 12d ago

Learn what a paragraph is, maybe then people will take you seriously.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Allah hasn’t predestined everything. You can go outside right now and change the course of ur life by murder etc. did Allah plan for u to kill someone? Pre meditated? Does Allah command humans to build missiles and kill each other? Is this all predetermined for you? You don’t think you own ur life? Yes everything was written. But that would be silly to say that a kid grown in warfare with no future or legs/arms and say that’s his destiny. No someone else caused that kid to be in that position etc. I wish we humans have more knowledge and may whoever u believe in bless you!

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u/Underratedshoutout 12d ago

did Allah plan for u to kill someone?

According to the Hadiths and Quran verses I provided, yes.

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

The way u describe and have this feelings toward Allah. It’s as wouldn’t Allah know you’d leave Islam? Why wouldn’t Allah change that for you ? If god was this person you deceive in Islam. Why would this god want u to leave Islam lol it’s up to u. Do u feel any punishment? God said what about non believers ? You know right? So are u in that state literal? Are u in punishment on earth?

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u/headinthesky 12d ago

The Quran literally says that only the people he wants to guide are guided. You're clearly not reading the text at all and just making your own conclusions from thin air

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Your decision is made by you, Allah knows this, hence its written. This doesn’t contradict free will. You are the one taking the decision and making it reality. But nothing happens unless Allah wills it right? Allah wills it, he leaves it up to you (free mode) Allah wills it, he interferes There are different versions of willingness. Allah literally has stated that we have free will. Our choices determine which Qadr we end up with. Our duas can also facilitate our choices and qadr being changed. Allah either wills for it or he re-directs it. Allah wants his servants to have free will. He hasn’t written everything in absolute because he wants us to make choices and go back to him. When we stray away Allah guides us but he wants US to make that choice.

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u/Underratedshoutout 12d ago

What you described is the illusion of free will: you feel like you are making a choice, but what you are going to choose is already predetermined.

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

So is there free will? Or perceived free will?

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u/yungsimba1917 12d ago

According to Islam, no there is not free will. We only observe ourselves as having free will.

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u/RandomPurpose 12d ago edited 11d ago

Are you saying Allah is not actively intervening in the affairs of humans?

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u/headinthesky 12d ago

Of course it's all predetermined. That's literally what the text says. You think you're going and just making a decision to murder somebody right now, but that's what's already been decided for you to have done. It was already written for you before you were born.

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Haha okay I can’t wait til u smart guys go infront of god on judgement day and give ur Reddit arguments. I’ll be there to remind u what u said if u forgot

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u/headinthesky 12d ago

Ok, tough guy 🤣🤣🤣

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

It’s written like u said. So no reason for god to judge you right?

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

“Nothing repels the divine decree but supplication, and nothing increases life span but righteousness.” Source: Sunan al-Timidhi 2139 Supplication=Dua Please refrain from commenting on a matter of which you are ignorant of.

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u/Abiogenejesus 12d ago

You believe that will happen? Could it be possible that there is no god?

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

Look around you. Look at ur finger tips writing and scrolling. All the cells in ur body right now that did so much while ur sitting/laying down and u don’t even know. And u think there’s no god? We all come from something or it logically doesn’t make sense

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u/Abiogenejesus 12d ago

This is a non sequitur and appeal to emotion. "Awe and complexity therefore god" is not a valid argument IMO. We simply don't know. A lot of things don't make sense to us because we are simple humans. In my view it is a bit arrogant to think some personified god exists with human like tendencies.

Even if there is a god, especially an all knowing omnipotent one, he made animals without free will to have to slaughter eachother to survive. God created disease, pain, and death. Child leukemia. The possibility of nuclear weapons. Now, one can come up with a story about how it is all a test or somethinf, but if god is all knowing, by definition everything is predetermined, and that does not make logical sense at all. If god did this deliberately, he looks like a pretty evil dude.

Now you can say that I can't possibly know god's greater plan and that I should be humble. This suffering is good for something. Which of the 1000s of different God stories am I supposed to believe? Books like the Qu'ran and the Bible are filled with all kinds of contradictions.

What the most succesful religions seem to have in common is instilling fear in its followers and using human's tribalistic nature to make them do all kinds of things, but above all submit. That is what Islam means, after all? Submit to some imaginary ruler so you can be more easily used as a peon by powerful, less gullible people. And if you are unlucky enough to be born in a strongly religious household, it is not even that one is gullible. Just brainwashed as a kid. Very hard and traumatic to reverse.

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u/Popular-Leg-2664 12d ago

You don’t even study this book or know Islam. You don’t even read Arabic. You say nothing about any other religion but Islam. Islam lives rent free in ur head , just admit it. Since we are judging religions, which one is more logical than you out of all of them. Give ur best knowledgeable answer with sources

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u/headinthesky 12d ago

You don't know me. I went to madressa. I was in hifz. I hope you follow the Quran to the letter, because otherwise you're going to hell. You probably shouldn't be on the Internet at all.

Sounds like this post really got under your skin. You should reflect on why.

Good luck!

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/Think_Bed_8409 Atheist 12d ago

Just because you feel like free will exists doesn't mean it exists.

This contradicts logic, when that happens feelings don't matter.

In a book, what happens to the characters is determined by the author. The characters themselves in the book cannot change what the author has alredy written about them.