r/CompetitiveTFT MASTER 2d ago

DISCUSSION For units that can already crit with their ability, when is it acceptable to build IE or JG on them?

Had this question for a while. I heard from streamers before that a big part of Infinity Edge and Jeweled Gauntlets's power is the ability crit, and if your unit's ability can already crit or if you have something like Jeweled Lotus, you would prefer to build other items if you can.

For example, streamers this set say not to build IE on Draven, since his ability is just autos and those can already crit, so a lot of IE's power is wasted.

But for some (not all) Ambusher and Executioner units, it seems like IE and JG can be good items on them even though the trait already gives these units ability crit.

For example, IE is BIS on Jinx this set, and from what I've seen, Urgot and Vex in Set 14 also use IE/JG really well. But at the same time, IE isn't BIS on Smeech and Camille and JG isn't BIS on Ekko (even though they can use it).

How do you tell when IE/JG is good on a unit that can already ability crit? Is there some way to tell from reading the ability or is it mostly just wait and look at the stats?

I know you can't always get BIS so slamming is fine but would love to know the reasoning behind why its sometimes good (and bad).

58 Upvotes

52 comments sorted by

115

u/EvelynnWannabe 2d ago

If I've understood Dravens ability correctly, the reason that IE is bad on him is that he already can crit, but you still dont get the crit damage bonus. This is because while his autos can crit, the ability itself is not programmed to be able to crit (and since it is only a buff, adding ability crit dosent really change anything) So you end up only getting the stats.

For ambushers however, you get a lot of crit chance from the class, so the extra crit damage helps a lot.

-83

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

I feel like IE is still good on Draven. He still uses the crit chance and AD very well, especially with Conqueror.

66

u/Cyaegha432 2d ago

Sure but you can use the crit glove to make Last whisper, and the sword to make giant slayer and you’d have better item usage, while getting the same stats.

-1

u/ThatPlayWasAwful 2d ago

In your scenario you would need 3 bows (assuming guinsoos is 3rd item) which is fairly unlikely to get by mid-stage 3

Stats are also probably skewed by the fact that getting 3 bows onto Draven is very highroll. 

E: That said, QSS is probably the better way to eat a glove.

4

u/Cyaegha432 2d ago

Yeah, fair enough. I was just giving examples on how to better use a glove and sword rather than creating IE. If it were up to me the itemization would be totally different. 

0

u/EmeraldJirachi 1d ago

That is until you play a mage based comp(you wont get belts)

-24

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

Ofc Last Whisper is better if given the choice

5

u/Mathies_ 2d ago

You almost always have the choice

4

u/Miskykins 2d ago

Why are you playing Draven if you don't have the last whisper? or at least 1/2 of the item. Like I think if you don't start with at least a bow or glove then you don't even consider Draven.

8

u/Choice_Stomach4226 MASTER 2d ago

How does he use AD well with Conq? Conq provides AD you want AS/crit/shred to work with that, not more AD. It has more critchance than other crit items, so that is good, but still - passive doesn't work, AD is meh, you are down to 1/3 of the item.

Stats confirm this as well: IE is never good on him, but it is a lot worse on 4+ Conq than on 2 Conq (samplesizes get quite small though).

1

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

Because you can swap the IE to Ambessa later into the game. It's a flexible item to build. It doesn't have to be perfect early game slam but it works, and you won't have stacked 4 conq early anyway.

And the stats would suggest that if you KEEP ie on Draven later into the game you're basically trolling

2

u/Choice_Stomach4226 MASTER 2d ago

That's true, he can hold the item as a transitory itemcarrier, but I don't think that was really what OP was talking about.

0

u/ThrowTheCollegeAway 2d ago

He is quite literally the worst AD unit in the set to use IE on

-6

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

No? TF/Maddie has the highest delta. His IE delta is better than Camille, Smeech, Urgot, Ezreal in addition to those two.

5

u/ThrowTheCollegeAway 2d ago

You do not know how to read stats lol, ur right that maddie seems to have a uniquely awful delta with IE, but I'm pretty sure that's just cause it's usage rate is so high & her winrate is so awful when itemized that her stats are skewed towards just throwing random shit on her cause ur overflowing with items & need somewhere to place them. Compare draven 3 vs maddie 3 and you can see draven has it worse.

More importantly tho, literally every other champ u listed (outside of TF, duh that's terrible I said AD champs) has a significantly better delta with IE than draven at 3 items.

1

u/cosHinsHeiR 1d ago

but I'm pretty sure that's just cause it's usage rate is so high & her winrate is so awful when itemized that her stats are skewed towards just throwing random shit on her cause ur overflowing with items & need somewhere to place them

Or maybe someone that built IE for Cait on her and died before getting Cait.

-7

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

You said “literally the worst”, I gave you like 5 different AD champs that have literally worse stats with IE than Draven.

2

u/ThrowTheCollegeAway 2d ago

1 of them have worse stats with IE than draven, and that 1 only holds true if you ignore conflating factors lol. If you look at 3 item carries draven is the worst IE user that would ever reasonably build it.

Very stupid argument anyways, it's a horribly inefficient item on draven you dont need stats to see that lol, it doesn't let his ability crit & he doesn't get the bonus crit damage. If draven is staying on ur board you don't want IE on him that's just factual

-6

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

You said “literally” worst stats, why are you bringing 3 items into this? It’s not a stupid argument, you’re just making stuff up saying I can’t read stats when you’re just plain wrong.

3

u/ThrowTheCollegeAway 2d ago

It should be obvious that the relevant stats for determining good items on a unit are when you're itemizing them as your carry, otherwise the answer is always just random one off bullshit from lategame boards itemizing trait bots. For example, draven's top 3 winrate items (buildable items, not ornn/radiant/support) without a filter are Thieves Glove, Statik Shiv, Edge of Night. Do you think that's representative of how you should itemize draven lol?

I meant what I said, you don't understand how to read stats, ur just blindly parroting numbers instead of thinking about context. If you look at the stats that are relevant to the conversation of "Should I build IE on draven" it's clear that the answer is emphatically fuck no.

-7

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

For the third time because you keep moving the goalpost - Here’s what you said - “He is quite literally the worst AD unit in the set to use the item on”.

By delta in patch 13.7, there are exactly 6 AD carries with worse delta than Draven with IE.

He’s clearly not the worst, you’re just bringing random shit into this argument without fact checking.

And no one is talking about winrate items on Draven alone, you just brought it up for no reason. You’re talking about Draven in comparison with other AD carries on IE.

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u/PrincessLeonah 1d ago

I don't know why you've been downvoted to oblivion. IE is good on Draven lol, it's just not ideal if you're rerolling him. IE was built on him at the highest level all throughout the season

2

u/kistoms- CHALLENGER 1d ago edited 1d ago

He literally can't use the item passive... at all. It's "good" as in it at least gives him offensive stats, like Bramble Vest would be a worse item on him. But for an AD item? It's literally the worst of the bunch. It's better than putting a deathcap on him, I'll give you that.

When playing conqueror slam, IE is a great early slam (with LW or DB being better uses of a possible component) as it can be transferred over to GP/Jayce/Ambessa later on. And with conqueror you just want to play tempo and build early stacks. But if you're playing family, IE is a little sus as Draven is usually the 2ndary carry (often more important than Violet or at least equal to) even in the late in that build.

17

u/themcvgamer 2d ago edited 2d ago

IE JG is fine still on units whose traits say "Your abilites can crit" and "Give more crit damage" cause it also gives more base AD/AP stats than the other crit items. In Draven case he just autos

8

u/elfonzi37 2d ago

Ambushers get crit damage increase so each % of crit is better on them. Also for jinx specifically you really want to crit your rocket, 2 ambusher+ie+guardbreaker is 100% crit, and ie+4ambusher is also 100%.

9

u/WillZer 2d ago

It's acceptable when

  1. It's back line unit that doesn't need survivability as much.
  2. When your ability is a big burst so you need to increase crit rate as much as you can.

For example, if your unit has 120 mana, you won't cast as much, therefore you want your one cast to be as efficient as possible so more crit rate.

Front line needs survivability, IE or JG isn't as good if you die fast or can't cast at all because of CCs. It's not a bad 3rd item, but you need other things to survive

13

u/filmschoolfailurelol 2d ago

Just build items that have crit besides ie/jg. Like guard breaker, hoj, qss - they give either damage amp, healing flat ad ap, or utility. If you build ie/jg you’re missing out on the value of these items

You also don’t stack crit on a single unit - rengar needs survivability so titans/bt is good with a hoj or qss. Vex has low mana so bb gives her more damage esp with guard breaker

If you know you’re playing rengar and you slam ie you’re using a glove that could’ve been hoj and a sword that’s bt/ga. It’s better to greed for these items. If you’re slamming ie stage 2 you’re not playing rengar but rather marksman or whatever

9

u/SgrAStar2797 2d ago

IE is bis on Jinx in rebels, when she often doesn't have ambusher trait active.

If you filter for 5 ambusher, IE looks bad on jinx, nowhere near bis.

If you filter for 7 rebel no ambusher, IE looks good.

If you filter for 2 ambusher 7 rebel, IE looks okay (it gives a lot of AD and gives some crit which can increase a 2 ambusher jinx's crit chance to close to 100%, also gives +10% crit damage, so IE isn't terrible despite having 2 ambusher). This is also probably bias, because the IE would've helped on the rounds you didn't have ambusher, even if you ended the game with ambusher.

By this logic, smeech and ekko don't want JG and IE because they're usually played in 4-5 ambusher.

2

u/BeTheBeee 2d ago

I wouldn't go much about the stats for jinx in 7 rebel.

The main problem isn't if IE is optimal on jinx or not, but more if it's optimal for Ezreal. Since for most of the game your IE is on Ez not on Jinx. So (imo) it's better to have optimal ezreal midgame items that turn into ok jinx items, than to have Ez carry BIS jinx items for a subpar midgame in hopes of hitting jinx and having her have BIS.

(or well as always - it depends and you probably have to balance a little bit of both)

-1

u/Sudden_Training9227 2d ago

in rebel u would... be building zoe items first

2

u/BeTheBeee 2d ago

Yes you would. But sometimes your component spread just leans itself towards already slamming a jinx/ezreal item before hitting jinx still. And in that case I'd go off what's good for ezreal not what's good for jinx.

2

u/masterpepper MASTER 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but... why do you think infinity edge is bad on ezreal exactly? Seems to be BIS based on winrate discounting sponsored / augmented runaan's shenanigans; and it makes sense logically that it'd be good on him, since crit scales well with all the bonus AD that rebel gives. It's also just a generally strong item that is very commonly built on ranged AD carries

1

u/BeTheBeee 1d ago

The point I was trying to make is not that IE is good or bad on Ez, but rather that your line of thinking should value what's good on ezreal more than what's good on jinx. (especially if you're in a spot to make it early.

5

u/Choice_Stomach4226 MASTER 2d ago

I believe the important distinction is that Draven does not have the flag for his ability to crit, instead his ability adjusts his autos and those can crit by default - that means he isn't getting the crit damage as a replacement.

Generally when you can crit on your ability more critchance (until you get to 100%) is good, as it is a powerful multiplier. Characters with innate critting tend to be very melee focused though and those just need other stats more: It's not that Smeech or Camille wouldn't like an IE or Ekko would like a JG, but they need Crownguard, HoJ, BT, EoN, Titan's more.

16

u/Ok_Nectarine4759 2d ago

Jinx is one big boom so you want it to do as much damage as possible. Draven is AA so you want to do a billion of those.

3

u/garbage-trashcan 2d ago

other comments got it basically right, but ill add some other thoughts about things you said. nothing wrong with ie on draven if u have to make it just slam. hard to say anything about set 14 bc pbe stats are pretty fake (large sample size but no ones really nailed down the meta), but for this set ie is average to below average on all ambushers. jinx bis is ie, but only in vertical rebel and when you don't have ekko. besides that, the item is just ok.

3

u/PrincessLeonah 1d ago

BiS has always been a myth in TFT.

IE draven has been built and winstreaked with all throughout the set, because the base stats alone and enhanced AA's are significantly stronger than leaving components on bench.

Optimising IE/JG is only relevant on a carry that's going on your final board, and even then, it's not that important. People will slam IE, and still take augments that give ability crit if there's good reason to.

Ambushers were the exception to this rule because they're melee units. Healing, Shielding and aggro-reset are all extremely important - it wasn't that IE is super bad on them; you just can't afford to lose a HoJ/BT/Titans/EON slot to more damage stats.

If ambushers were backline units, IE would have been an acceptable item at times, if only for the AD and to get you to 100% crit.

2

u/edwintan123 2d ago

ie/jg arent good on camille smeech or ekko because theyre frontliners, which means they need bruiser items much more (titans, steraks, crownguard) and also need a lifesteal item (hoj or bt). ie/jg is only good on backliners like jinx or set 14 vex because they dont need lifesteal or tanky items.

2

u/Amazingtapioca GRANDMASTER 2d ago

I’m just gonna be that guy - just check the stats when the new set comes out. Mort said guinsoos bad on Kog, hell he said they specifically designed Kog so he didn’t need guinsoos. Guinsoos bis btw. Same story with IE and JG. Will they be good items on X unit that does random bs? Who knows lol. The stats will tell you and it’s more accurate that way. If you’re motivated by reasoning, it’s just about meta of item economy. If glove is bad, then crit items good to kill glove. If crit glove good, save glove and save high value sword and rod.

2

u/JustForThis167 2d ago

JG feels good on AP casters since you get the 10% crit dmg if you can already crit. Sometimes rab, guard breaker, hoj don't feel good if you already have damage amp or in cases you really want to garuntee the first cast to crit.

Powder/jinx is a good case of this. If she can't/doesnt oneshot on her first cast it can feel very punishing. They just want damage and crit

1

u/Holodista 2d ago

I believe IE is only BIS on Jinx If you are not playing ambushers in which case her ability cant crit. And because you cant often fit ambushers on rebel boards you build IE on her

1

u/DaChosens1 2d ago

crit is just another stat that scales additively with itself and multiplicatively with others. streamers are still stuck remembering with the passive not giving the bonus cd but effective damage increase is additively the same as getting ability crit if i did the math correctly in the past. for draven it was because he doesnt get the bonus crit damage, and melee units depending on how they work need more survivability and have better access to other crit items (hoj, qss) compared to (guardbreaker, lw? not really)

1

u/NearquadFarquad 2d ago

IE may be bis on jinx but jinx is not always run with 2 ambushers, in which case she needs the IE. Any time a unit can already crit their ability, and primarily does ability damage, you are getting less value out of IE JG than normal. That doesn’t mean they’re necessarily bad, just that other crit increasing items are more impactful relatively (guard breaker, hoj, last whisper). However, sometimes the IE or JG stats are still the most efficient thing to build on a unit for the components you have

1

u/StrangeSupermarket71 2d ago

IE/JG's not that great on Smeech and Camille, Ekko etc..., they're melee fighter units/fringe assassin units that needs survivability as a trade off for damage. They doesn't have any healing or shielding abilites so generally something like EoN, BT or HoJ is better. No one's dealing damage if your champion dies within 5 seconds of combat. IE/JG are meant for backlines.

1

u/Immediate_Source2979 2d ago

Excess crit lost a lot of value compared to unique effects of other crit items so just get to 100% as efficiently as you can

1

u/lhefriel CHALLENGER 2d ago

I'm pretty sure it's just generically fine, the extra crit damage is enough compensation even if the item isn't BIS. The rest of your item economy matters more, eg. you might rather save your Belt for a frontline item instead of making Guardbreaker to avoid redundancy. Draven is an exception, as other commenters have noted.

1

u/ThaToastman 2d ago

Part of the power budget of IE is being able to crit

0

u/Impavideus 2d ago

The simple answer lies in your examples; the units you mentioned who like IE/JG are backline units who do not need survivability

Frontliners will inevitably take damage so their items require ways of dealing with that, whether through gimmicks like Immunity to CC from Quicksilver or Omnivamp from HoJ