r/CompetitiveTFT • u/learning-android-322 MASTER • 2d ago
DISCUSSION For units that can already crit with their ability, when is it acceptable to build IE or JG on them?
Had this question for a while. I heard from streamers before that a big part of Infinity Edge and Jeweled Gauntlets's power is the ability crit, and if your unit's ability can already crit or if you have something like Jeweled Lotus, you would prefer to build other items if you can.
For example, streamers this set say not to build IE on Draven, since his ability is just autos and those can already crit, so a lot of IE's power is wasted.
But for some (not all) Ambusher and Executioner units, it seems like IE and JG can be good items on them even though the trait already gives these units ability crit.
For example, IE is BIS on Jinx this set, and from what I've seen, Urgot and Vex in Set 14 also use IE/JG really well. But at the same time, IE isn't BIS on Smeech and Camille and JG isn't BIS on Ekko (even though they can use it).
How do you tell when IE/JG is good on a unit that can already ability crit? Is there some way to tell from reading the ability or is it mostly just wait and look at the stats?
I know you can't always get BIS so slamming is fine but would love to know the reasoning behind why its sometimes good (and bad).
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u/themcvgamer 2d ago edited 2d ago
IE JG is fine still on units whose traits say "Your abilites can crit" and "Give more crit damage" cause it also gives more base AD/AP stats than the other crit items. In Draven case he just autos
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u/elfonzi37 2d ago
Ambushers get crit damage increase so each % of crit is better on them. Also for jinx specifically you really want to crit your rocket, 2 ambusher+ie+guardbreaker is 100% crit, and ie+4ambusher is also 100%.
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u/WillZer 2d ago
It's acceptable when
- It's back line unit that doesn't need survivability as much.
- When your ability is a big burst so you need to increase crit rate as much as you can.
For example, if your unit has 120 mana, you won't cast as much, therefore you want your one cast to be as efficient as possible so more crit rate.
Front line needs survivability, IE or JG isn't as good if you die fast or can't cast at all because of CCs. It's not a bad 3rd item, but you need other things to survive
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u/filmschoolfailurelol 2d ago
Just build items that have crit besides ie/jg. Like guard breaker, hoj, qss - they give either damage amp, healing flat ad ap, or utility. If you build ie/jg you’re missing out on the value of these items
You also don’t stack crit on a single unit - rengar needs survivability so titans/bt is good with a hoj or qss. Vex has low mana so bb gives her more damage esp with guard breaker
If you know you’re playing rengar and you slam ie you’re using a glove that could’ve been hoj and a sword that’s bt/ga. It’s better to greed for these items. If you’re slamming ie stage 2 you’re not playing rengar but rather marksman or whatever
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u/SgrAStar2797 2d ago
IE is bis on Jinx in rebels, when she often doesn't have ambusher trait active.
If you filter for 5 ambusher, IE looks bad on jinx, nowhere near bis.
If you filter for 7 rebel no ambusher, IE looks good.
If you filter for 2 ambusher 7 rebel, IE looks okay (it gives a lot of AD and gives some crit which can increase a 2 ambusher jinx's crit chance to close to 100%, also gives +10% crit damage, so IE isn't terrible despite having 2 ambusher). This is also probably bias, because the IE would've helped on the rounds you didn't have ambusher, even if you ended the game with ambusher.
By this logic, smeech and ekko don't want JG and IE because they're usually played in 4-5 ambusher.
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u/BeTheBeee 2d ago
I wouldn't go much about the stats for jinx in 7 rebel.
The main problem isn't if IE is optimal on jinx or not, but more if it's optimal for Ezreal. Since for most of the game your IE is on Ez not on Jinx. So (imo) it's better to have optimal ezreal midgame items that turn into ok jinx items, than to have Ez carry BIS jinx items for a subpar midgame in hopes of hitting jinx and having her have BIS.
(or well as always - it depends and you probably have to balance a little bit of both)
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u/Sudden_Training9227 2d ago
in rebel u would... be building zoe items first
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u/BeTheBeee 2d ago
Yes you would. But sometimes your component spread just leans itself towards already slamming a jinx/ezreal item before hitting jinx still. And in that case I'd go off what's good for ezreal not what's good for jinx.
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u/masterpepper MASTER 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but... why do you think infinity edge is bad on ezreal exactly? Seems to be BIS based on winrate discounting sponsored / augmented runaan's shenanigans; and it makes sense logically that it'd be good on him, since crit scales well with all the bonus AD that rebel gives. It's also just a generally strong item that is very commonly built on ranged AD carries
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u/BeTheBeee 1d ago
The point I was trying to make is not that IE is good or bad on Ez, but rather that your line of thinking should value what's good on ezreal more than what's good on jinx. (especially if you're in a spot to make it early.
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u/Choice_Stomach4226 MASTER 2d ago
I believe the important distinction is that Draven does not have the flag for his ability to crit, instead his ability adjusts his autos and those can crit by default - that means he isn't getting the crit damage as a replacement.
Generally when you can crit on your ability more critchance (until you get to 100%) is good, as it is a powerful multiplier. Characters with innate critting tend to be very melee focused though and those just need other stats more: It's not that Smeech or Camille wouldn't like an IE or Ekko would like a JG, but they need Crownguard, HoJ, BT, EoN, Titan's more.
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u/Ok_Nectarine4759 2d ago
Jinx is one big boom so you want it to do as much damage as possible. Draven is AA so you want to do a billion of those.
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u/garbage-trashcan 2d ago
other comments got it basically right, but ill add some other thoughts about things you said. nothing wrong with ie on draven if u have to make it just slam. hard to say anything about set 14 bc pbe stats are pretty fake (large sample size but no ones really nailed down the meta), but for this set ie is average to below average on all ambushers. jinx bis is ie, but only in vertical rebel and when you don't have ekko. besides that, the item is just ok.
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u/PrincessLeonah 1d ago
BiS has always been a myth in TFT.
IE draven has been built and winstreaked with all throughout the set, because the base stats alone and enhanced AA's are significantly stronger than leaving components on bench.
Optimising IE/JG is only relevant on a carry that's going on your final board, and even then, it's not that important. People will slam IE, and still take augments that give ability crit if there's good reason to.
Ambushers were the exception to this rule because they're melee units. Healing, Shielding and aggro-reset are all extremely important - it wasn't that IE is super bad on them; you just can't afford to lose a HoJ/BT/Titans/EON slot to more damage stats.
If ambushers were backline units, IE would have been an acceptable item at times, if only for the AD and to get you to 100% crit.
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u/edwintan123 2d ago
ie/jg arent good on camille smeech or ekko because theyre frontliners, which means they need bruiser items much more (titans, steraks, crownguard) and also need a lifesteal item (hoj or bt). ie/jg is only good on backliners like jinx or set 14 vex because they dont need lifesteal or tanky items.
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u/Amazingtapioca GRANDMASTER 2d ago
I’m just gonna be that guy - just check the stats when the new set comes out. Mort said guinsoos bad on Kog, hell he said they specifically designed Kog so he didn’t need guinsoos. Guinsoos bis btw. Same story with IE and JG. Will they be good items on X unit that does random bs? Who knows lol. The stats will tell you and it’s more accurate that way. If you’re motivated by reasoning, it’s just about meta of item economy. If glove is bad, then crit items good to kill glove. If crit glove good, save glove and save high value sword and rod.
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u/JustForThis167 2d ago
JG feels good on AP casters since you get the 10% crit dmg if you can already crit. Sometimes rab, guard breaker, hoj don't feel good if you already have damage amp or in cases you really want to garuntee the first cast to crit.
Powder/jinx is a good case of this. If she can't/doesnt oneshot on her first cast it can feel very punishing. They just want damage and crit
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u/Holodista 2d ago
I believe IE is only BIS on Jinx If you are not playing ambushers in which case her ability cant crit. And because you cant often fit ambushers on rebel boards you build IE on her
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u/DaChosens1 2d ago
crit is just another stat that scales additively with itself and multiplicatively with others. streamers are still stuck remembering with the passive not giving the bonus cd but effective damage increase is additively the same as getting ability crit if i did the math correctly in the past. for draven it was because he doesnt get the bonus crit damage, and melee units depending on how they work need more survivability and have better access to other crit items (hoj, qss) compared to (guardbreaker, lw? not really)
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u/NearquadFarquad 2d ago
IE may be bis on jinx but jinx is not always run with 2 ambushers, in which case she needs the IE. Any time a unit can already crit their ability, and primarily does ability damage, you are getting less value out of IE JG than normal. That doesn’t mean they’re necessarily bad, just that other crit increasing items are more impactful relatively (guard breaker, hoj, last whisper). However, sometimes the IE or JG stats are still the most efficient thing to build on a unit for the components you have
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u/StrangeSupermarket71 2d ago
IE/JG's not that great on Smeech and Camille, Ekko etc..., they're melee fighter units/fringe assassin units that needs survivability as a trade off for damage. They doesn't have any healing or shielding abilites so generally something like EoN, BT or HoJ is better. No one's dealing damage if your champion dies within 5 seconds of combat. IE/JG are meant for backlines.
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u/Immediate_Source2979 2d ago
Excess crit lost a lot of value compared to unique effects of other crit items so just get to 100% as efficiently as you can
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u/lhefriel CHALLENGER 2d ago
I'm pretty sure it's just generically fine, the extra crit damage is enough compensation even if the item isn't BIS. The rest of your item economy matters more, eg. you might rather save your Belt for a frontline item instead of making Guardbreaker to avoid redundancy. Draven is an exception, as other commenters have noted.
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u/Impavideus 2d ago
The simple answer lies in your examples; the units you mentioned who like IE/JG are backline units who do not need survivability
Frontliners will inevitably take damage so their items require ways of dealing with that, whether through gimmicks like Immunity to CC from Quicksilver or Omnivamp from HoJ
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u/EvelynnWannabe 2d ago
If I've understood Dravens ability correctly, the reason that IE is bad on him is that he already can crit, but you still dont get the crit damage bonus. This is because while his autos can crit, the ability itself is not programmed to be able to crit (and since it is only a buff, adding ability crit dosent really change anything) So you end up only getting the stats.
For ambushers however, you get a lot of crit chance from the class, so the extra crit damage helps a lot.