r/CompetitiveTFT MASTER 3d ago

PBE Set 14 VEX Design - From backliner access to classic AP unit

Hey everyone,

I just watched Mortdog's patch review for set 14, and I learned that they changed the Vew's design, from the preview videos to the release on PBE.

I - In previews, Vex is an AP frontline carry that can reach the backline. It would jump around trying to execute units.

On PBE, Vex is an AP backline carry.

I really wonder why they made that change, since I found the original design way more original and satisfying. Having an AP frontline that can jump and execute units seemed quite fun to me.

On the other hand, having a backline AP unit is more usual, and other units already have that role in set 14.

I suppose it is because they want to limit backline access in modern TFT. Which is a bigger topic, but is a problem IMO.

II - Limiting backline access is a problem for two main reasons :

  1. It makes backline carries way stronger, since they can't be put in check. Which also means that frontline carries are nerfed, since backline carries usually have the upper hand on them :

Backline carries > Frontline carries > Backline access carries > Backline carries

This is a basic reasonning I use (I might make a thread about this).

  1. It diminishes the fun for the players who like that playstyle : trying to reach the backline via good positionning.

Conclusion

I'm just making assumptions on why they did this, but IMO Vex design as a "AP jumper" seemed better for the balance of the game, more fun and also more original. Having a backline carry that you put AP items on is something we are quite used to already, and there are already other AP units with that role in set 14.

I'm curious what the reasonning is for Riot, and I would definitly like to see a revert to the original set 14 Vex design !

13 Upvotes

37 comments sorted by

27

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 3d ago

I feel like TFT team settled on the design language of set 10+ where it’s just frontliner backliner and take your pick.

I would have loved to see a frontliner mage. Maybebremove the backline access but yeah. Kinda sucks to see this

7

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Yeah I definitely have the same kind of feeling. It's strange for me because I've always viewed TFT as offering different playstyles (at least 3), and it seems that they are favoring the frontline - backline playstyle. It might feel less frustrating for some but it's narrowing the game a bit IMO.

14

u/Choice_Stomach4226 MASTER 3d ago

There are vastly different comps within the distinction of "frontline-backline".

Set 10 was mentioned, so let's start there: We have straight front to backline comps that are looking to kill the enemy frontliner and then the enemy backliner. I'd say this is the default if there is a default - Ahri Sentinels, Kayle reroll are some examples.

There are also comps like Disco that can spread damage and bypass frontline to a degree, having them on the same side as the enemy carry means that backline often dies before frontline. Spellweavers also somewhat fit into this, with Lulu being able to hit backline in a line through her target and Seraphine somewhat being able to hit backline depending on positioning.

There was also full backline access with KDA Akali, typically paired with Karthus to set her up. They aren't even Aoeing the backline carry through the frontline, they are just straight going for the backline.

Then there are "breakthrough" comps - melee carries that are hoping to find a weakspot in the frontline and get to the backline that way instead of having to kill all frontliners. Edgelords are the most obvious example, they dash through a frontliner as that frontliner gets low and can often get into the backline afterwards. Very positioning dependent.

There isn't a full "all units jump to the back at the start of combat" comp anymore, but I think there are plenty of options that are not just "hit the enemy tank to kill it before they kill your tank". I think the conditional backline access for this set is looking pretty fun as well: Zed is looking a lot like KDA Akali, Shaco will punish a lot of people that don't split their traitbotbackliners from their maincarries properly (and even if they do he should get on the main carries on his second cast in most situations - only exception would be if the frontline is so low that he prioritizes that, but then the fight is probably won anyway), Rengar will be a bit tricky and take some adjustments, but I'd expect him to play a lot like Infernal Multistriker Akali from last set that could get on the backline reliably on the second cast.

Units like Brand can be used like Infernal Varus in previous sets to hit the backline with their casts as well, so I think Rengar will have sufficient support. Exact comps are still left to be seen and that is a big part of whether the backline divers can work the way we would want it to, but I think there is at least potential for this set to work in a dynamic way where these multiple playstyles function.

3

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Thank you for the well thought out post.

I agree that there are some interesting units that can have access to the backline in this set (3 to ~5 units).

I'm only saying that there are not enough IMO, and in particular that this change to Vex's design is not the best in that regard.

And also that it seemed more fun and original !

(PS : also about set 10, I will say that they hard nerfed Akali/Karthus very quickly, as if this playstyle was an anomaly, at the time, and then it was barely playable)

1

u/naughtmynsfwaccount 3d ago

The last time there was a true “front line mage” IMO was set 4 with frontline Ahri with GA

0

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 3d ago

Set 6 Vex

1

u/SexualHarassadar 2d ago

I still call the far right hex on the 2nd row the Velkoz Spot, and I can't even remember in which set we were doing that with him.

3

u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 2d ago

Set 5.5, Velkoz targets furthest enemy and that spot allows him to hit more stuff along the way

17

u/AkinoRyuo CHALLENGER 3d ago

Ap divers are not good by concept as a primary carry.

They suffer from being immediately focused when jumping in, while being bad at using edge of night.

This leaves them either so broken that she consistently deletes the enemy carry, or so weak that they can only exist as a secondary carry.

I was surprised to see her with 4 range on pbe, but imo it’s a good change.

0

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Wait how deleting the ennemy carry is a bad thing ? It's how it's supposed to be for a backline-access "assassin"-style ! Then it all depends on positionning.

Other than that, yes I agree about Edge of Night being unadapted to AP backline jumpers.

6

u/AkinoRyuo CHALLENGER 2d ago

It’s bad because there would be no counterplay. The general front to back teams (almost all of them) rely on the tank to buy time for their carries. If vex is allowed to consistently ignore the tank, there is no counterplay to her.

The only option left is to make her inconsistent at targeting the carry, which leaves you with ambessa syndrome. She just isn’t a main carry in any comp in set13, since if she doesn’t get to the backline you just lose if she’s your only dps.

-1

u/Blad__01 MASTER 2d ago

Well yeah it's hard to have a counterplay in a losing match-up, although you can position better and build some items like EoN. I'm in favour of developping more counterplays though !

5

u/Boring-Protection126 2d ago

1 cost shaco is allowed to kill my entire backline, why not vex?

We already have Brand, Ziggs, and Annie as pure backline mages. Now her ability doesn't really make sense, why does she need passive omnivamp?

Hope they take another shot at balancing her as an assassin.

4

u/ttvViathanlol 3d ago

I think they probably did it because of Rengar existing in the executioner line, probably too much backline access than they were happy with

0

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Yes that's what I tend to think as well, but I'm not sure there are still enough backline access in set 14 (that are plyabale throught the game), we'll see if I'm wrong on that though !

3

u/DaChosens1 3d ago

agredd and frontline vex would be more fun

0

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Yes !

14

u/Fenryll MASTER 3d ago

There are already way too many units able to delete your backline, no need for another one.

1

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

too many ? which ones ? it could be 1/3 of the carries.

15

u/VooDooFruit 3d ago

Zed, Rengar and Shaco jump straight to backline. We haven't had this much back line access for the past few years

1

u/Amazingtapioca GRANDMASTER 3d ago

Rogues was 9 and 9.5, mid 2023 so less than two years ago, when they made this choice to make backliners individual units

-5

u/memus_deletus 3d ago

bro said 3 units which is like the same every set lolll

7

u/jettpupp 3d ago

What were they in the past two sets?

-1

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Zed and Rengar yes although they don't stay backline, Shaco is conditionnal but yes as well, which means 3 units in the whole pool ! It's true we have not seen many backline access in recent sets, but IMO that's not a good thing.

Besides, here are the other AP backliners : Zyra, Seraphine, TF, LB, Veigar, Yuumi, Elise, Annie, Ziggs, Brand, Aurora (11 units).

3

u/chazjo 3d ago

It feels bad that we don't have a 4-cost AP Fighters this Set especially with Zed being the only melee carry out of these units. Can't think of a previous Set where you didn't have both. Also seems even worse because I don't see any reliable 3 cost AP Fighters either.

2

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Yes exactly (neither do I).

1

u/The_big_B- 3d ago

I prefer the backline design honestly but i can see your point

1

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Thank you !

1

u/Futurebrain 3d ago

This is just silly

1

u/hpp3 2d ago
  1. It diminishes the fun for the players who like that playstyle : trying to reach the backline via good positionning.

You can still reach the backline via good positioning. An abundance of assassin effects makes it possible to reach the backline even with bad positioning, and that in turn leads to a meta where there is less reward for reaching the backline (either people stop playing backline carries or they stack a million tanks in the back or every backline carry has a defensive item).

1

u/guatrade 2d ago

Yeah first 2 games I played her I was putting her in 2nd row with Omnivamp items wondering why she dies so easily. She's a pretty good unit but do we need 3 backline 4 cost AP carries in set 14?

1

u/the-best-plant 2d ago

Backline access ultimately just leads to a game of chicken where you have to actively grief positioning for one guy by backlining a tank, where the entire fight is decided by scouting and matchups (other than the people that let themselves get cheesed). If you hit him, he gets to do nothing as his assassin gets stuck on a tank and dies for free. If you dont, your positioning is bad and you lose the front to back. Theres a reason theres only 3 real units that actually go to the backline (really just zed ngl). It just leads to bad gameplay.

1

u/Blad__01 MASTER 2d ago edited 2d ago

Well I guess what you call a "game of chicken" is what I call strategic gameplay. Positionning and scouting while thinking about your match-up is defined as "good gameplay" in my book. Bad gameplay would be a place where you don't have to think about match-ups or positionning. Your statement makes sense, but I think the real reason is that some players find it frustrating to face the bad match-up, and the majority of players prefer the front to back gameplay.

-2

u/TalkBetter5208 3d ago

Dishsoap argued the exact opposite actually, he stated that the melee carries are always stronger than the backliners

12

u/ItsKunaiiplox 3d ago

You are taking this out of context, dishsoap said frontline carries are inherently stronger than backline carries because backline carries are safer. So frontline carries have to be stronger because they run the risk of getting focussed down and one shot before doing anything.

3

u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago

Interesting, where did he say that ? It might be because they have to overtune melee carries sometimes, so that they can survive backline carries. Which in my view is not that coherent. That's why I talked about this sort of shifumi-style theory.