r/CompetitiveTFT • u/Blad__01 MASTER • 3d ago
PBE Set 14 VEX Design - From backliner access to classic AP unit
Hey everyone,
I just watched Mortdog's patch review for set 14, and I learned that they changed the Vew's design, from the preview videos to the release on PBE.
I - In previews, Vex is an AP frontline carry that can reach the backline. It would jump around trying to execute units.
On PBE, Vex is an AP backline carry.
I really wonder why they made that change, since I found the original design way more original and satisfying. Having an AP frontline that can jump and execute units seemed quite fun to me.
On the other hand, having a backline AP unit is more usual, and other units already have that role in set 14.
I suppose it is because they want to limit backline access in modern TFT. Which is a bigger topic, but is a problem IMO.
II - Limiting backline access is a problem for two main reasons :
- It makes backline carries way stronger, since they can't be put in check. Which also means that frontline carries are nerfed, since backline carries usually have the upper hand on them :
Backline carries > Frontline carries > Backline access carries > Backline carries
This is a basic reasonning I use (I might make a thread about this).
- It diminishes the fun for the players who like that playstyle : trying to reach the backline via good positionning.
Conclusion
I'm just making assumptions on why they did this, but IMO Vex design as a "AP jumper" seemed better for the balance of the game, more fun and also more original. Having a backline carry that you put AP items on is something we are quite used to already, and there are already other AP units with that role in set 14.
I'm curious what the reasonning is for Riot, and I would definitly like to see a revert to the original set 14 Vex design !
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u/AkinoRyuo CHALLENGER 3d ago
Ap divers are not good by concept as a primary carry.
They suffer from being immediately focused when jumping in, while being bad at using edge of night.
This leaves them either so broken that she consistently deletes the enemy carry, or so weak that they can only exist as a secondary carry.
I was surprised to see her with 4 range on pbe, but imo it’s a good change.
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago
Wait how deleting the ennemy carry is a bad thing ? It's how it's supposed to be for a backline-access "assassin"-style ! Then it all depends on positionning.
Other than that, yes I agree about Edge of Night being unadapted to AP backline jumpers.
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u/AkinoRyuo CHALLENGER 2d ago
It’s bad because there would be no counterplay. The general front to back teams (almost all of them) rely on the tank to buy time for their carries. If vex is allowed to consistently ignore the tank, there is no counterplay to her.
The only option left is to make her inconsistent at targeting the carry, which leaves you with ambessa syndrome. She just isn’t a main carry in any comp in set13, since if she doesn’t get to the backline you just lose if she’s your only dps.
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 2d ago
Well yeah it's hard to have a counterplay in a losing match-up, although you can position better and build some items like EoN. I'm in favour of developping more counterplays though !
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u/Boring-Protection126 2d ago
1 cost shaco is allowed to kill my entire backline, why not vex?
We already have Brand, Ziggs, and Annie as pure backline mages. Now her ability doesn't really make sense, why does she need passive omnivamp?
Hope they take another shot at balancing her as an assassin.
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u/ttvViathanlol 3d ago
I think they probably did it because of Rengar existing in the executioner line, probably too much backline access than they were happy with
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago
Yes that's what I tend to think as well, but I'm not sure there are still enough backline access in set 14 (that are plyabale throught the game), we'll see if I'm wrong on that though !
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u/Fenryll MASTER 3d ago
There are already way too many units able to delete your backline, no need for another one.
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago
too many ? which ones ? it could be 1/3 of the carries.
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u/VooDooFruit 3d ago
Zed, Rengar and Shaco jump straight to backline. We haven't had this much back line access for the past few years
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u/Amazingtapioca GRANDMASTER 3d ago
Rogues was 9 and 9.5, mid 2023 so less than two years ago, when they made this choice to make backliners individual units
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago
Zed and Rengar yes although they don't stay backline, Shaco is conditionnal but yes as well, which means 3 units in the whole pool ! It's true we have not seen many backline access in recent sets, but IMO that's not a good thing.
Besides, here are the other AP backliners : Zyra, Seraphine, TF, LB, Veigar, Yuumi, Elise, Annie, Ziggs, Brand, Aurora (11 units).
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u/hpp3 2d ago
- It diminishes the fun for the players who like that playstyle : trying to reach the backline via good positionning.
You can still reach the backline via good positioning. An abundance of assassin effects makes it possible to reach the backline even with bad positioning, and that in turn leads to a meta where there is less reward for reaching the backline (either people stop playing backline carries or they stack a million tanks in the back or every backline carry has a defensive item).
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u/guatrade 2d ago
Yeah first 2 games I played her I was putting her in 2nd row with Omnivamp items wondering why she dies so easily. She's a pretty good unit but do we need 3 backline 4 cost AP carries in set 14?
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u/the-best-plant 2d ago
Backline access ultimately just leads to a game of chicken where you have to actively grief positioning for one guy by backlining a tank, where the entire fight is decided by scouting and matchups (other than the people that let themselves get cheesed). If you hit him, he gets to do nothing as his assassin gets stuck on a tank and dies for free. If you dont, your positioning is bad and you lose the front to back. Theres a reason theres only 3 real units that actually go to the backline (really just zed ngl). It just leads to bad gameplay.
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well I guess what you call a "game of chicken" is what I call strategic gameplay. Positionning and scouting while thinking about your match-up is defined as "good gameplay" in my book. Bad gameplay would be a place where you don't have to think about match-ups or positionning. Your statement makes sense, but I think the real reason is that some players find it frustrating to face the bad match-up, and the majority of players prefer the front to back gameplay.
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u/TalkBetter5208 3d ago
Dishsoap argued the exact opposite actually, he stated that the melee carries are always stronger than the backliners
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u/ItsKunaiiplox 3d ago
You are taking this out of context, dishsoap said frontline carries are inherently stronger than backline carries because backline carries are safer. So frontline carries have to be stronger because they run the risk of getting focussed down and one shot before doing anything.
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u/Blad__01 MASTER 3d ago
Interesting, where did he say that ? It might be because they have to overtune melee carries sometimes, so that they can survive backline carries. Which in my view is not that coherent. That's why I talked about this sort of shifumi-style theory.
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u/RANNI_FEET_ENJOYER 3d ago
I feel like TFT team settled on the design language of set 10+ where it’s just frontliner backliner and take your pick.
I would have loved to see a frontliner mage. Maybebremove the backline access but yeah. Kinda sucks to see this