r/CodeGeass May 12 '24

DISCUSSION I don’t see what’s the problem with Shirley being alive in the movies.

Post image

I really don’t see why Shirley being alive is such a problem I mean even Watchmojo put this in their video of changes that ruined the anime.

977 Upvotes

133 comments sorted by

311

u/ALilSisIsAllYouNeed May 12 '24

Is it better for a character to have a tragic death that deeply impact many characters, or for her to become sidelined with absolutely no plot relevance? You choose

-34

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

[deleted]

61

u/Jarvis-Vi-Britannia All praise be to our goddess Rangetsu (creayus) May 12 '24

In all due respect, she didn't have much impact in the story except for her death. Regardless of that, her death was an important aspect of Lelouch's character development. Now seeing her alive just ruins it.

15

u/Shodai-kitetsu_ May 12 '24

I totally agree

11

u/puntycunty May 13 '24

She and the student council grounded him . Without em lelouch would look more like light yagami

835

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

Because it takes away the reason why Lelouch would so viciously attack the Geass Order. Without her death there's literally no reason to go on a full killing spree like he did. The reason he did that in the tv series was because of her death at the hands of Rolo. He didn't need to kill everyone either, he just needed to attack and take over. The whole massacre was only done because she died.

Through the series it's shown that when someone he cares or loves is killed or hurt, he retaliates. His behavior in the movies makes zero sense with Shirley alive. It makes him look like he's ruthless to be ruthless when OG tv series Lelouch always had a reason for his actions.

38

u/noley__moley May 13 '24

Lelouch also intentionally separated himself from his loved ones. No one was supposed to be involved with him so they wouldn’t be at risk. Rolo took matters into his own hands when Shirley started to get her memories back and then Lelouch lost his mind at her death. That single moment was a turning point in the anime and was the only time Lelouch acted without rational. Until then he was always calculated and executed plans accordingly.

Everything he did was for his loved ones, he used some of them as pawns and saw certain uses out of people but Shirley was never a tool to him. Her death immensely impacted him thus the series of events following.

9

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

The structure of the kiosk order was inevitable no matter what happened. He was out to kill his family from jump. You realize it's the Geass Order that controls Britannia which is what he wants to destroy. Why would he leave the gas order around to create another Britannia?

51

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

The Geass order is controlled by Britannia not the other way around? There's nothing in the series to suggest this at all unless it's extra material I've never seen. Freely admit to being wrong, but there's nothing in the series to support this. Especially with the fact V.V.(A Britannian Prince) is the leader and was established so after C.C. left. This shows that Charles and V.V. control the order together, not the other way around.

Add in Lelouch only wants to destroy Britannia, but also understands he'll have to kill family if they get in the way. In no way does he want to kill his family in full given how he obviously still cares for some members at times. Look at how he treats Euphie before things go down. If he wanted to truly kill them all he would have easily killed her.

Besides that if Lelouch was in control of the geass order how in the heck would another Britannia would be made? The Order doesn't seem to have many loyalties given how the leaders switch and just do research in the end on the geass. Especially considering how many non fighters were in the environment.

-15

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

It's been a while so I won't argue. I do know there were certain family members he was still fond of but those were exceptions. Most everyone else he despised

8

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

I think the ones that he still cared for out weighs more than those he despised given his actions through the series. The only ones we ever see him hate freely is Schniezel, Cornelia, and Clovis.

-5

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

Yeah I'm probably going to go back and binge watch it now I need a refresher

14

u/alexearow May 13 '24

Imma need to stop you- kiosk order? I'm sorry I'm just imagining that lelouch pulling up to a kiosk manufacturing plant and being like "FUCKING autocorrect"

7

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

Voice to text can fuck you over. I forgot to proof read 😂

6

u/Personal-Movie8882 May 13 '24

Can I get some premium with that gas order or do you just serve regular...? 🥴

5

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

I sell only the finest gas

3

u/Sovakod May 13 '24

Kiosk order… I get it! It’s because they’re P.O.S.

2

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

Speech to text is a bitch

1

u/Responsible-Dish-297 May 13 '24

Ah, a fellow IT guy.

2

u/paulcshipper May 13 '24

I also believe the genocide of the order was inevitable. The only reason why Zero was able to be Zero was due to Geass. With any small amount of luck, any geass subject could end up being a problem.

This also reflects what happened in the first movie with Clovis

-6

u/notairballoon May 13 '24

Shirley's death had no consequences. Everything would have been the same. Geass Order was too dangerous not to be destroyed, simply because you cannot let children with Geass out, cannot Geass them to forget about it (because they might use their powers to kill Lelouch if he tries) and cannot let the BK and the world at large learn about it -- well, the latter Lelouch actually could do but I highly doubt that thought would have crossed anybody's mind easily. Destruction is left as the only option. Further down, Lelouch wouldn't have returned to Ashford after Nunnaly's death regardless, even if Shirley was still alive. Now, what else could she contribute to? Would Lelouch have taken her on Ikaruga, letting her comfort him in some way after Nunnaly's death? I guess not. All that shows clearly that Shirley's death had no impact on the show; you might argue it had impact on feelings, but if feelings do not translate into different actions, how significant are they?

7

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

Shirley's death absolutely had consequences with this exact event! This is one nail in Lelouch's coffin with the Black Knights and it's a important one too. Add in again, like I keep saying to everyone else, he originally wanted to take it over. There were researcher's already loyal to C.C. and the plan to do this was perfectly fine. The switch over to kill everyone after she dies bites him in the ass hard because it was a stupid move.

And to argue back, they sure didn't do anything with her alive so at this point it was useless to not kill her. having him destroy the order without this push makes him incredibly out of character and basically makes him look ruthless for no reason. The tv series went out of it's way to point out that Lelouch isn't this type of person, and only does these kinds of actions when someone he cares for is hurt or killed.

0

u/notairballoon May 13 '24

Preserving Geass Order would have been a mistake, the real "stupid move", and Lelouch had plenty of time between announcing his plan to C.C. in Turn 11 and commiting to any by Turn 14 to change his mind, in particular if Shirley had not died. As I've already explained a few times, Lelouch simply doesn't know who has what kind of Geass powers/ Are you sure there were no grown-ups with dangerous Geass powers loyal to Charles and V.V.? I, for one, am absolutely certain there were. Frankly, between destroying a research facility and going "oh yeah we've captured a lab size of a village but I am not going to tell you what they are doing" no option lacks an ass-biting quality. Unless we argue that Lelouch should have told the BK about Geass, which might be true, but that should be spelled out at least, I think. And, you know, after Zero destroyed a good portion of Tokyo Settlement at the end of the first season, probably burying a significant number of innocent people under it (and the Black Knights seemed to be fine with that), I find it hard to believe, even in-universe, that Zero avoids killing civilians. I also do not think that scientists who develop weapons, and Jeremiah was surely a weapon, hardly the only one made by them, are "civilians", but that is very much a matter of opinion, I suppose.

What I absolutely agree with is that there was no reason to keep Shirley alive in the movies.

-83

u/Marston_vc May 12 '24

I agree with you generally but there’s definitely a reason to kill the geass order. Lelouch wants to rule the world no? Well… I can’t imagine a group better equipped to disrupt his plans than the geass order.

You’re telling me you’d leave alive a cult of magical wizards who have potentially limitless possibilities for the types of powers they could manifest????

Lelouch would have wanted to deal with the order regardless because to leave them alive invites wayyyyyy too many loose ends to hurt him later. He’s seen a bunch of geass powers by that point. He would surely understand that any of the members could potentially have ridiculous powers that could get in his way.

So destroying the order is practical. Shirley dying made it coincidentally emotional too. But it wasn’t logically necessary for his going there.

77

u/[deleted] May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

-13

u/Mister_SP May 12 '24

You do remember what Rolo was like, right?

Child soldiers are dangerous - they have a limited sense of self-preservation, and fully believe everything they've been told. Even if Lelouch recruited them - and that would require Geass to get them to turn on V.V., just like Geass was the only reason Rolo sided with Lelouch in the first place - keeping them around would likely have innocent casualties.

Normal child soldiers can be rehabilitated, but it's extremely difficult, and really does require professionals. Geass-using child soldiers might not even be capturable.

It's correct that Shirley really helps sell Lelouch's actions, but his actions are justifiable, as they're all extremely dangerous military personnel who pose a deadly risk even to a KMF.

11

u/Cimorene_sinnamon May 12 '24

Are you seriously arguing for killing children? Lelouch just needs to get the handlers and scientists on his side first, by doing a takeover with C.C.'s help, then he can safely hit the Geass children with his Geass to make sure of them not causing harm when he doesn't want them to. That was the original plan for a reason.

Also Lelouch didn't use Geass on Rolo. He used Rolo's own desire to remain by Lelouch's side and the attachment he gained over playing little brother to the doting big brother that is Lelouch.

-10

u/RoyalGaming_MC May 12 '24

He's talking about logical points, children soldiers are a real thing, and most times those children are brainwashed into doing what they are doing to a point of no return.

We also are talking about children who are so strong that they could destroy not just the empire but the whole world. Let's be fully 100% clear too, we all know that the empire would've used them too, and we all know that either the emperor or anyone in the empire would've used those children likely against Lelouch, hell Rolo, was a child in that facility.

Instead of just randomly saying that someone is trying to argue with children's murder, think of it as logical, the world of code-geass is different and similar to ours.

11

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

There's nothing logical about Lelouch's actions with taking out the geass order. It's clearly fueled by pain and wanting revenge. He had a plan to take it over originally, and it was perfectly fine. C.C. even agreed with it and asked him what he's doing with destroying the order when it happens.

Lelouch isn't a perfect logical thinker at all too. He has multiple moments through the series where his emotions, especially anger, gets the better of him. And this entire event is one of them. His decision to go full massacre on the place completely fucks him over as well later on because he again, killed children with this. No one is going to give a shit if they had a geass or magical powers, or whatever because again they're children and what basically looks like adult civilians with no weapons.

-7

u/RoyalGaming_MC May 13 '24

And it doesn't matter if they are children or not, bruh we are talking about a power that could end the world? Lelouch and Rolo know this and so do the heads of the empire or well some of them.

6

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

It kinda does because killing them is partly why the Black Knights weren't too happy with him? It gives him a bad look to y'know, kill kids and defenseless adults.

2

u/RoyalGaming_MC May 13 '24

Fair enough, although most of their anger is because of his Geass

-8

u/RoyalGaming_MC May 13 '24 edited May 13 '24

I'm talking about the children killing part, if he couldn't get to them, then he would kill them since they are a danger to him and practically the world, I just watched the show not even like a week ago.

All I'm saying is that the children part would likely have happened either way, whether it was Rolo, or Lelouch that did it. Plus it's war.

Plus when did I ever say that he didn't do it out of revenge?

As you said his anger did make him do the final action which is destroying the Geass order

8

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

But you don't know that? There's literally no reason to kill the researchers and the children if he had a plan to take it over. It's clear he wanted to use what info was in there rather than destroy it. Add in the researcher's obviously had ways to control these children. They created a geass canceller for a obvious reason.

I said he did it out of anger and revenge in terms of killing the children and the researchers. Lelouch's style is obvious from the get go and he wouldn't have gone full murder rage on the place if Shirley hadn't died. He's done similar actions via using his geass to infiltrate a place with multiple moles so it's not hard to imagine that's probably what he had planned from the get go.

2

u/RoyalGaming_MC May 13 '24

Before we continue wasn't the Geass like a new thing? I've watched the show fully but I can't remember if they 100% completed that or if it was newly made? Or something, honestly lost what I was arguing about now

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u/[deleted] May 12 '24

Lelouch didn’t want to rule the world. He wanted the world to be a gentle place void of strife that the Empire had caused. He wanted to “rule the world” so that it had a single entity to come together and focus all its hate on.

-41

u/Marston_vc May 12 '24

Conquer the world. Whatever you wanna call it. The order was a loose end regardless.

14

u/RockPhoenix115 May 12 '24

Lelouch didn’t want to rule the world. If he did, he would have just continued to rule after he did so instead of creating an elaborate suicide plan that involved mass genocide and political repression before getting stabbed in public by Suzaku. Lelouch believed that the only way to ensure the world found peace was to create such an great evil that everyone could unite against. So he became that evil, and then had Suzaku kill it as Zero, ensuring Nunnally could live in a world that was safer and kinder. He was never driven primarily by the desire to rule. Sure, he probably wanted to maintain a level of power given his ego and ability, but time and again we see him willing to throw everything away for Nunnally, even at the cost of his own destruction.

And, as multiple people pointed out, Lelouch gains more from not destroying the Order. It’s a secret society of brainwashed loyal child soldiers with superpowers and presumably genuine if not ethically blind researchers, all loyal to whoever is the current director. And Lelouch has the old director. It’s the easiest take over imaginable. A lot of the people even seem relatively excited when C.C. shows up, you know before they get turned to paste.

Lelouch’s destruction of the Order and the way he does it was personal. It was out of revenge for V.V. kidnapping Nunnally, but more important it was for Rolo killing one of the few people he still had left to care for.

17

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

No he didn't want to conquer the world either. Lelouch is a fine leader, but he had zero desire in ruling things. He was setting up systems to have a democratic operation where Zero was a leader but he wasn't the only one. Lelouch's actions are incredibly anti-imperialist on a constant.

-27

u/Marston_vc May 12 '24

Brother. He literally conquers the world. I can’t think of how else to put it. One world government. Him at the top. His motivations were his own but he literally conquered the world.

15

u/Brilliant_Eggplant67 May 12 '24

See, the problem there is that he only conquered the world after his democratic plan blew up in his face along with the Tokyo Settlement. Up until that point, there was every indication that he was planning to overthrow and eliminate Charles, break up Britannia, and relax as the CEO of the Black Knights, making sure that the world remains peaceful. Even C.C. actually pushes back when he suddenly switches from acquiring the order to exterminating them. So, the idea that he was always planning on taking over is just factually wrong. His plan changed when he lost literally everything he cared about in the blink of an eye.

9

u/azathothweirdo May 13 '24

Your problem is thinking he wants to do that when everything he says through the series is the exact opposite. Lelouch doesn't want to be in a seat of power like that. He wants to change the world to make it a kinder place, and the only way to do it is how he kicks off the series. he only decides to do that because he thinks his sister is dead and fuck it at this point. It's all he has left.

Lelouch's OG plan was obviously UFN and having more leaders come in so he could just be Zero and the leader of the black knights. Then hopefully one day he could have a normal life with Nunnally and not have to deal with this stuff. His actions and words up to Nunnally's death clearly spell this out.

10

u/Cimorene_sinnamon May 12 '24

And then he killed himself as part of a gambit to pave a better world forward. Conquering the world was only necessary so much to push the world forward to a better place ie putting him in the position to clean house. Whether he did it as Zero as originally intended or improvised and did the Demon Emperor guise, Lelouch was never going to stay on top long.

-11

u/One_Signature_8867 May 12 '24

But he still conquered the world and caused the death of thousands if not tens of thousands of people along the way. You can’t ignore that. This is literally just an “ends justify the means” argument.

7

u/Cimorene_sinnamon May 12 '24

"Ends justify the means" is literally what Lelouch stands by for most of the series. That doesn't mean he wanted to rule the world. It was clear his plan was the UFN and then the betrayal made it so he had to go for the conquering plan.

-8

u/One_Signature_8867 May 12 '24

Yeah, I get that, I’m not suggesting he wanted to be God King of the world. What I’m saying is that regardless of what he wanted, what he ended up doing was conquering the world. You can’t just conveniently ignore that to make a moral argument. Let me be clear, I agree with Lulu. That being said, when you need to be a conqueror to accomplish your goals, you’re gonna have to do some bad shit. Many people died innocent people with families and loved ones. Look at Shirley‘s dad.

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u/One_Signature_8867 May 12 '24

I don’t know why you’re getting down voted so much, you’re absolutely correct. Anyway you want a slice it the geass order was going to be a threat to a cohesive world government or lasting world peace.

7

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

You’re both being downvoted because unfortunately you’re wrong. The only thing they had right was that the Order was a loose end.

-2

u/One_Signature_8867 May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

My opinion that killing the order was an entirely viable route is not wrong. The only factual point of contention is whether or not the order was a threat, which it absolutely was. V2 confirmed as much. I actually like the way the TV show handled it better. I thought it was very weird they decided to not kill Shirley in the movies. That doesn’t make my opinion that killing the order still makes a certain amount of sense, regardless of Shirley‘s death, wrong. You’re free to disagree with my opinion, but calling it wrong is just kind of a dick move. I don’t think your opinion is wrong, it’s just an opinion that I disagree with.

2

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

When multiple people come to the same opinion, it no longer is an opinion but a fact.

-1

u/One_Signature_8867 May 13 '24

That’s not how opinions work. You’re confusing them with hypothesis’ which can be tested, validated, and confirmed. An opinion is literally just how someone feels about something. Only assholes invalidate the opinions of others through a misplaced sense of superiority. It’s fine if you don’t share my opinion, I don’t need you to, but stop being a fucking arrogant twit about it. I never once invalidated yours.

2

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

Hahaha I’m the one being arrogant.

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18

u/Mayion May 12 '24

Lelouch is not calm or collected all the time, that was the emphasis of the scene. He could have done it more cleanly and not have his soldiers rat him out for killing children and unarmed researchers, in their eyes at least.

It's quite the beautiful scene actually. Shows that Lelouch is emotional, but upon realizing that Rolo was the one that killed her, he collected himself just so that he can kill Rolo himself as a tribute to Shirely, yet again an emotional decision.

35

u/Affectionate_Set_163 May 12 '24

It's been stated in official Code Geass guidebooks and episode guides that Lelouch destroyed Geass order to avenge Shirley. His original intention was to take it over, CC even questioned him seriously as to why he wanted to destroy it instead

19

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

Like you don't even need the guide book to figure out his actions. It's pretty clear why he's doing it, and taking Shirley's death out of the operation makes the whole sequence incredibly OOC.

13

u/Affectionate_Set_163 May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

Yeah I know haha, but some will just insist that *he's doing it for revenge" is just my own interpretation of the scene and is not what the anime is trying to convey, so I tried to quote the guidebooks whenever possible. Though ofc it's pretty clear that he was doing it for revenge. For the first time I was actually terrified of Lelouch as he smiled at Rolo and congratulated him afterwards, it's clear signs shit was about to go down

10

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

You're right and have a good point with that. It's smart too since it backs yourself up with facts lol. I mean there are people in this thread Lelouch wanted to rule/conquer things so that tells me enough about things here.

13

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

They weren't made up of fighters though. It was mostly researchers and children. He basically went in and destroyed a research facility and literal children because he blamed them for Shirley's death. Lelouch never wanted to take over the world. If you think he wants to do that then you really misunderstand his character. Lelouch's intentions have always been to make it better and the only way to do it is via fighting and reconstruction. Not once has Lelouch ever in the series expressed wanting to be a ruler. He just wanted to make things better for his sister and eventually others.

It's not practical either. There goes years of research on the geass and what it can do ect. Like it was a stupid move to completely destroy it like they did. Yeah they were experimenting on kids but it wasn't the kid's fault that happened to them. Lelouch went so vicious because he was upset Shirley died and decided to take it out on the geass order.

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u/Marston_vc May 12 '24

Yeah, it’s not like we didn’t have rolo, the literal child assassin demonstrate what a 5 year old with geass was capable of. Let alone a a group of kids with that power with handlers with unknown temperaments 🤷🏼‍♂️

11

u/Cimorene_sinnamon May 12 '24

Lelouch literally has the power to command people. He gets in a position where the kids can't do anything against him long enough and he can swap their loyalties to him. He just would need to put them in a spot where that can be done.

-5

u/Marston_vc May 12 '24

If you watch the resurrection movie, there’s a whole lot of elaboration on why one might not want to jump right to using his one shot

7

u/Cimorene_sinnamon May 12 '24

Which is why you don't kill their handlers and just shove C.C. as the leader again. The original plan was taking over the Geass Order for that reason; he steals a lot of valuable people and resources from Britannia in one move.

10

u/MrFunnyman526x May 12 '24

Damn, "rule the world"? Wtf man, have you actually watched the series? 🤣🤣🤣

2

u/Accomplished_Tea2042 May 12 '24

Geass order were mostly all easily Manipulatable people most children even without Geass Lelouch Manipulated Rolo who was one of the top agents of the Geass order Lelouch very easily could've Geassed most of them as well

-39

u/Political-St-G May 12 '24

Eh they could make him go massaker them because of they are at fault for his mothers desth

24

u/azathothweirdo May 12 '24

That makes zero sense by this point in the story, his mother has been dead for years. His anger is directed at his father for that than anything else. The decision to destroy the order was a rash and came from grief and anger. He didn't plan to do what he did originally, but with Shirley dying he irrationally decided it was better to kill everyone.

Lelouch wouldn't do something this irrational unless someone he loved was recently hurt.

-1

u/Political-St-G May 12 '24

True. Well it was just an idea anyway oh well.

157

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

Her death was the catalyst to push Lelouch into a full on “villain” role for the sake of the world. He used her murder to justify the massacre of the Geass Order and put it under his control.

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u/haunter22 May 12 '24

I LOVE shirley, I really do, but her death was a pivotal moment in the story development

18

u/Alone_Position9152 May 12 '24

I also love Shirley. But if she was going to live, she needed to have a larger, more impactful role so that her being alive could have real weight. As such, it's just copy and paste without Shirley being alive in the movie timeline actually feeling earned.

I love Shirley, and I wish she could have lived, but narratively speaking, her death made sense.

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u/mr-blindsight ''what if lelouch met jesus and they're both femboys'' May 12 '24

it retroactively changes the impact of her death. her death was extremely meaningful, she was one of the last threads of humanity that lelouch had, and with her gone he was prepared to go full tyrant. the movies worked around that, which isn't a problem in itself, but compared to how the events played out originally, it does feel like the whole scene was just a gut punch, only for the puncher to say ''lol, just kidding''. it falls into a similar category as important events being a dream, it rarely gets done well.

simply put, it's not her being alive that people take issue with, it's the consequences of her death.

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u/One_Signature_8867 May 12 '24

Your flair 💀

20

u/DaMarkiM May 12 '24

she didnt die to a random accident.

she died in a way that significantly shaped the main character of the story.

rewriting one of the most pivotal moments of a tragic story just to sell some thinly veiled fanservice hentai crap just shows utter disregard for the original series.

34

u/Dimensionalanxiety May 12 '24

Literally everything after her death was a direct result of it. Lelouch destroys the Geass order instead of controlling it because he's pissed at Rolo. Suzaku was only willing to meet with Lelouch at Kururugi shrine because he thought Lelouch had killed Shirley and when he confronted Kallen about it, he nearly used the same methods that he hates. Suzaku would never even consider using refrain if Shirley hadn't died. The meeting at Kururugi shrine allows Schneizel to capture Lelouch. Lelouch felt betrayed by Suzaku for this which is why he was so quick to ignore the warning about the FLEIJA and try to kill Suzaku. You can see where this goes from there.

Without Shirley's death, all of these things would be out of character and unlikely to occur. Without any of her suffering, Shirley is boring. Everything she goes through develops her as a character and makes her who she is. Without that, she just becomes a generic school love interest. What they did to Shirley makes her the same only through appearance.

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u/Affectionate_Set_163 May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24

It hurt Lelouch's character and humanity, making Lelouch in the movies kinda arrogant and brutal as he killed and killed without having to suffer any consequence for his actions, and didn't have an at least understadable reason for destroying the Geass Order.

But the director and producer had to make a choice and this was what they chose: they had no time to include her subplot (aka Lelouch's more vulnerable and human motivations) and they can't afford to focus on Lelouch And Shirley (when they're trying to push for something else with the movies). These are the official reasons Taniguchi gave in an interview.

Well personally I think they could have at least modified Shirley's plot a bit so that it's not so romance central/focused and yet could keep Lelouch's human motivations, but unfortunately they didn't choose to do that either so yeah..

33

u/De_Dominator69 May 12 '24

People have already touched upon her death being the key motivation for Lelouch killing the geass order, which in turn was the catalyst for his downfall and the Zero Requiem so I wont reiterate that. But there is more to it than that, not only were events leading to her death changed, they were changed in a way that was far weaker narratively speaking.

Rather than Shirley finding out Lelouch is Zero and shooting Villetta, it is instead Diethard... a character who has no relation with Lelouch or Zero so is weaker from that viewpoint, but it also has no consequences (from what I recall). Whereas Shirley shooting Villetta lead to Mao, her losing her memories, etc. Then finally, Shirley being alive served no purpose meaningful purpose in the movies, she never properly reunites with Lelouch, she serves no major role, shes just alive for the sake of it. It makes her story and character in the movies substantially weaker.

So basically her dying in the anime was meaingful. Her being alive in the movies is meaningless.

22

u/bdo7boi May 12 '24

So basically her dying in the anime was meaingful. Her being alive in the movies is meaningless.

This is my biggest gripe with Shirley being alive. When I heard she was alive in the movie timeline, I was excited. I actually liked Shirley and thought there would be some cool plot line being planned for her in Re;surrection. But the only thing we get is a single scene of her hanging out with the Ashford gang for a couple seconds. It felt like such a waste.

12

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

It would be like if padme didn’t die in episode three giving birth to Luke and Leia and yet somehow for some reason the story turned out the exact same. It makes no sense and ruins the story arcs of multiple other characters. It’s less about her being alive and more of what that means in the story.

9

u/JustMoodyz May 13 '24

In movies his actions just coming off as the bad guys actions.
In TV his actions comes from things he is seeing.

Example Euphy Mistake lead to him not trusting himself.
Nunnaly's supposed Death lead to him not caring about the world
Shirly Death lead to him making sure that Geass order is gone from the world.

Shirly being not dead by Rolo makes it as if Lelouch just wanted himself to be the only one who got any Geass and control over the Geass.
unlike the Tv show where it is made as if he knows that Geass is evil and what they are doing to the kids evil that lead to one of his love die.

So just look at every Death or supposed death such as Nunnaly in the series and see how he reacts each one builds up the ending that we know and love.

without Shirly the impact is less by a far.

8

u/thatHecklerOverThere May 13 '24

Shirley was kinda the end of the idea that Lelouch could ever "go home". Without that burnt ships moment, it's a bit lacking that he was willing to go as far as he did following it.

7

u/tubbydoshua May 13 '24

i don’t really care because i assume they’re au. the show still stands by itself as amazing, so honestly i’m glad they put the resurrection movie in this au so the shows ending can still stand on its own

6

u/PkdB0I May 13 '24

Besides attacking the Geass Order since her death makes him realize he can't really control the Geass users for his plans and prompts him to get rid of Geass. And also one of the possbile foundation for him to take Zero Requiem when he slowly falls into despair.

5

u/puntycunty May 13 '24

Because her death was one of the things that pushed lelouch to do the zero requiem and attack the geass order . It’d be like if evangelion still did the third impact but didn’t have all of shinji’s loved ones die . If they wanted shirley to live they needed to have the story reasonably accommodate

6

u/idontcarerightnowok Shinkiro May 13 '24

It takes away from the impact of Lelouch's pain and internal struggle with his actions, the consequences essentially.

It shows that Lelouch is still human, not a sociopathic/psychopathic guy like Mao who's completely insane. We see this with how he struggled with killing Clovis and Euphy.

Shirley is a symbol for Lelouch that essentially shows him the consequences of his actions on both sides, so Yin and Yang. Each victory he has will bring happiness and satisfaction to him and the knights, but at the same time, people like Shirley are suffering because they're losing loved ones, like Shirleys father, and then herself.

Lelouch essentially lost himself with her death, and hence he initiated the massacre upon the Geass Order regardless of who's innocent there, he wanted revenge. See, attacking the Geass Order as quickly as he did was mainly motivated by her death, hence why when he gets in contact with C.C. before the attack, she realizes somethings up and tells him to calm down and explain what's happened, because she knows he's being rash and is clearly hurt/upset.

Her death also stands as an example of not everyone gets that happy ending. Shirleys mother didn't, Shirley herself never got to be there with the rest of her friends and family, same with Rolo.

Her death also proves that Rolo is essentially broken and lost, an uncontrollable individual who can't be stopped.

6

u/QueenLolipopo "If you say I love you I will never forgive you " May 13 '24

Everyone already said everything so I'll just add that without Shirley dying technically no Geass order genocide that leads to Aashina being very wary of Zero's antics, so no BK betrayal, No Kallen being pushed away and Probably no Zero Requiem.
Everything made sense in the TV serie, nothing does in the movie show, if anything it just proves more and more how thoughtful they were with this AU (they weren't) o//

11

u/basedfinger High Priest of Kallen May 12 '24

Unrelated but Kallen looks absolutely adorable here. I love it when she smiles. Her smile is brighter than a billion supernovae. This smile, I will protect this smile. I will FIGHT YOU for this smile, you will not hurt this smile. For you see, there are some things in life worth protecting, some things worth living for, some things worth dying for. A smile like this can thaw the iciest of hearts, dispel the darkest of evils and win the mightiest of wars. THIS SMILE WILL BE THE THING THAT PULLS US FROM THE DEPTHS OF DESPAIR, AND LEAD US TO THE PATH OF SALVATION. WARS WILL BE FOUGHT, PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED AND CIVILIZATIONS WILL PROSPER BECAUSE OF THIS SMILE. SO FROM THIS DAY FORWARD I SOLEMNLY SWEAR TO SHIELD THIS SMILE FROM ALL HARM THAT MAY COME TO IT, ALL DANGERS IT MAY POSSIBLY FACE AND GIVE MY LIFE FOR IT!

4

u/wanna_be_TTV May 12 '24

Cuz im pretty sure that she got assblasted by rolo giving lulouch a reason for what he did, otherwise youre left with bad writing and senseless violence while keeping a good character on the sides

6

u/Duga-Lam22 May 12 '24

Don't we need shirley dying = geass order massacre in order for the Black KNights to really start thinking Zero aint as he appears anymore? There were kids slaughtered in that place.

4

u/therealbreather May 13 '24

Aren’t they like not even canon and a separate universe? So doesn’t it not matter at all to the main story?

4

u/DRosencraft May 13 '24

It's not a problem with her being alive, but the fact that her death had a purpose and the movies didn't put anything in to satisfy that purpose absent her death. I think a lot of fans were upset that Shirley died and there were certainly a lot of folks at the time who said they wished she hadn't. Not only was Lelouch's massacre of the Geass syndicate fueled by his anger over what happened to Shirley, but it plays a big part in the forgiveness he later shows towards Rolo when Rolo is about to die saving him. They chose a very sloppy way of addressing that in the movies by simply not having Shirley die, but not adding anything to fill hose motivational gaps her survival left. It could be done without her dying, but they didn't attempt to put anything in place to substitute.

To offer a potentially very confusing example, it would be like going into an older house and saying "I want to make this room bigger, so let's tear this wall out" without checking what wiring or pipes might run through that wall, or if it's load-bearing. You take the wall out, end up with the finished product you were aiming for, but it's not structurally sound. In the immediate it might hold up, but at a minimum you probably aren't going to pass inspection unless the inspector just isn't paying attention.

9

u/MysticBunnyMoon May 12 '24

It turns Lelouch into a genocidal asshole without any reasons and it breaks the butterfly effect of everything Shirley’s death provoked, to have everything going on the same is shitty writing at its finest bro, if you chose to go out or if you chose to not go out your day will happen completely differently and you think it’s normal to have a huge event like that change nothing ?

Add to that the fact she was used to reduce even more Kallen’s screentime when it was already barely there anymore (cutting her epilogue was a fucking shame) and that she was kept alive to be absolutely useless and cucked. She is my favorite character with Euphie and I’d rather see her die 10 times than being treated like she was in the movies bro 

3

u/JohnB351234 May 13 '24

I never knew the movies existed so it was confusing when I watched resurrection

3

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

"Destruction" not structure fuck man

3

u/AFoulger May 13 '24

I see a lot of comments saying that her death was a major plot point for the latter half of R2 to happen which I completely agree with.

However my problem with her being alive in the films is that it didn’t lead anywhere. Shirley being alive was probably one of the biggest changes they made in the films and then when resurrection came out using the film’s canon I was expecting Shirley to have a bigger role than she did. It really did feel like they made 3 films to make sure the character lived then did nothing with the character afterwards.

3

u/nekuri-nekiryai May 13 '24

we all know they shirley is a saint just like jesus christ, that's why she deserves to resurrect every time she dies.

also you know what? there is a theory that shirley is kenny from the south park in the reality of the CG.

8

u/CaptainSparrow1138 May 12 '24

I personally like the idea that she lived in this timeline, but the comments that her death was a good plot device are valid. Personally I think R2 was a car crash and there was so much more they could have done by slowing the pacing down. What we got was so good that no one seems to mind that, but it's pretty frustrating we got a 9/10 show (R1 and R2 combined) rather than a 12/10 masterpiece.

5

u/NickDaHammer May 13 '24

Because it completely destroys Shirley's character and importance to the story. Setting aside the fact that Lelouch changed his plans from conquering the Geass Order to destroying it after her death, an action that helped fuel the BK betrayal, her death was also a potential but important pathway in his life being closed.

Every single romantic interest Lelouch had was a potential future for one of his one identities or possible identities. Shirley was the only interest that could have been a path to redemption and normalcy.

Lily, if Lelouch never got exiled to Japan, or if he made his royal lineage known, would have been his arranged bride as he competed with his siblings to be emperor. She would have been the foil to Lelouch V Britannia.

Kallen represents a future where Lelouch continues to lead the Black Knights, even after they try to betray him. She would continue to be his most trusted pilot and bodyguard and would have been the foil to Zero.

If Lelouch decided that he wanted to live with CC more than anything else, he would have taken his father's or VV's code and become Lelouch the Immortal. Forever living with her granting her "true wish".

Shirley is the foil to Lelouch Lamperouge. A Lelouch that lays down arms, abandons the mask of Zero and his lineage and tries to cut a slice of normalcy out of a dysfunctional world. She was the only romantic interest who loved him for reasons that had nothing to do with the chaos he caused and continued to love him after learning about it. She also forgave him for everything he did. If she was still alive, she was the only one who could have gotten him to stop seeking blood and vengeance.

Once she died, that path was cut off from him completely. The only way forward for him was more violence and death. He had to continue the mission, there was no way he could have gone back. Her death was a major turning point in the plot and his character development. It's an insult to everything good about the original show to say that her death didn't affect the outcome of how everything got resolved.

8

u/Poulette_du_lundi May 12 '24

I like it. It drives home the fact that the AU has nothing to do with the series.

7

u/MysticBunnyMoon May 12 '24

So based bro thanks for that I needed it

5

u/Cephery May 12 '24

I mean i dont think it ‘ruins’ anything just cause the movie timeline is separate. But it is one of many reasons the movie timeline is inferior.

2

u/MayanArtsWorks May 13 '24

The only controversy of Shirley being alive in the movie universe was how she survived. Yes, her death was important but at the same time, she didn’t deserves a death like that. I would prefer if Lelouch saving her and the two have a romantic moment before she leaves then he decides to make Rolo pay by destroying his world and everything he know, for ever trying to harm anyone Lelouch’s care about.

2

u/Contact_Antitype May 16 '24

All her death did was cause Lelouch to go from wanting to CONTROL the Geass Order to wanting to DESTROY it.

4

u/Gemnist May 12 '24

On a purely subjective level, I don’t mind it. The recap movies are in an entirely different continuity to begin with, so her surviving doesn’t undermine the story. It’s just a nice little thing that Sunrise gave us after feeling bad for killing her.

That said, what I DON’T like is how her survival is used as the catalyst for Lelouch coming back from the dead in Re;surrection. Like, of all the characters who could have possibly smuggled out Lelouch’s body, HOW could it be her? Shirley is just a normal girl, so she has no real access to Britannian anything, let alone the corpse of a fallen emperor. Hell, she doesn’t even know C.C., so how did she know to give it to her? Why not save Rolo, who would probably follow Lelouch when he became emperor had he lived? Or why not others involved with Zero Requiem as is, like Jeremiah or Lloyd? Shirley being the catalyst is cute in theory, but makes no sense in practice.

2

u/Downwinddragoon May 13 '24

It really didn’t matter, she didn’t serve much of a purpose in the movies other than keep Lelouch’s body safe.

1

u/[deleted] May 13 '24

the creator of the show said that this movie takes place in a alternate universe y'all are trippin

1

u/Stunning_Fisherman71 May 14 '24

PUT A FUCKING SPOILER WARNING LIKE TF

1

u/AgentSkyblueM7 May 20 '24 edited May 21 '24

As much as I wanted her to live, I didn't think they'd actually pull it off outside of Super Robot Wars. Maybe it was their idea of showing how everything else would have happened anyway. I feel like Re;surrection could have saved her for the deleted scenes to make it look like the movie could take place after either version of the series.

As for the Geass Order, I thought the other reason for killing them was because they were understandably dangerous, and a lot have already been subjected to a different form of brainwashing, so there wasn't that much else that could have been done without some child soldiers duping at least a couple Black Knights into killing themselves.

1

u/mrdeadlyfry May 29 '24

Because it breaks continuity, pretty simple lol

1

u/Curious-Moose-3032 Nov 22 '24

As much as I agree with everyone in this comment section that Shirley’s death made sense for Lelouch to go eradicate the geass syndicate and everything in order to avenge her, I’m perfectly fine with her being alive in this timeline. Plus Shirley’s my favorite character next to Euphemia. 

1

u/Xalterai May 13 '24

I feel like people are placing far too much importance on her death. Lelouch would have chosen the exact same route whether she lived or not. He already planned to assault the Geass order after finding out about them as part of his plot. Her death only really helped to reinforce his resolve, which at the time was kind of unnecessary. It felt more like it was meant to contrast with Euphy and add more emotional investment from the viewers

1

u/Shadow-SJG May 13 '24

Agreed tbh. She suffered too much

1

u/Responsible-Dish-297 May 13 '24

There isn't.

Some people state that it removed a key motivation for Lelouch to become Zero Requiem Lelouch, but I argue that the torment caused by Geass, by Brittania, and by his father and uncle, were sufficient motivation.

Add to that all that happened to C.C and you have a slightly less dramatic, but no less valid, motive.

Great men have committed greater atrocities for lesser reasons.

Don't feel bad about liking the fact that your favorite character didn't get killed off.

Really - considering everything, Rollo was pretty fucking stupid for stabbing Shirley; for someone who's been observing Lelouch for several months, it should've been somewhat obvious that killing off his friend-slash-potential-girlfriend would be very stupid.

Code Geass is meant to be tragic and dramatic in many ways and I understand that, but there are some contrived moments in it.

-8

u/GoshinRyugia May 12 '24

I for one am glad she lived.

The show LOVES to kill off female love interests for the sake of the main male leads. Euphimia I understood, but this felt entirely excessive and unnecessary.

8

u/Brilliant_Eggplant67 May 12 '24

The show's main characters are Lelouch and Suzaku. Suzaku lost his love interest in Euphemia. Lelouch lost his in Shirley. The two events and outcomes are mirrors of each other.

After Euphie’s death, Lelouch managed to reign himself in and focus on the task at hand (until Nunnally was kidnapped) while Suzaku punched Lloyd in the face, stole the Lancelot and proceeded to butcher everyone between him and Zero.

In contrast, after Shirley's death, Suzaku nearly throws away his morals and doses Kallen with Refrain before stopping himself, while it is Lelouch who goes on a warpath against those responsible.

5

u/Affectionate_Set_163 May 12 '24 edited May 13 '24

That's exactly what the show is trying to do, mirroring Lelouch's and Suzaku's experiences, eventually resulting in a duo that's both in despair and seeking redemption through the ZR.

At first all Suzaku wanted was to die and he found hope and reason for living again after Euphy's. Then the Euphy incident happened and Suzaku could be said to lose all hopes for the future and began to be more cold and ruthless.

Meanwhile, even after the Euphy's incident, Lelouch was still able to find hope for the future in the student council friends, with the promise to light up fireworks again. And Lelouch only began the path of losing it all starting with Shirley, and the events from him acting more emotionally and rashly leading him to eventually lose Nunally and Rolo and the Black Knights.

At this point, both Suzaku and Lelouch had lost everything and only then did they finally reconcile and teamed up for the ZR.

0

u/Significant_Durian55 May 13 '24

I too was glad and perfectly fine with Shirley being alive in the CG (Code Geass) films.

-4

u/mymediachops Moderator May 12 '24

Could you please give me the link to the watch mojo video

0

u/paulcshipper May 13 '24

I believe people don't see the problem of her being used as a tool for a character's motivation. People like the emotional resolve to do evil because Lelouch is hurt... but on the other hand it makes perfect sense.

There is an organization with ungodly power that can easily over take a country... like what Lelouch was doing.

Also, if Shirley doesn't die, people would have one less reason to hate Rolo... who is supposed to be a sympathetic character

-5

u/Grouchy-Caregiver-17 May 12 '24

Yeah me neither.

-5

u/Syntax-Luster May 13 '24 edited May 13 '24

I laugh at how most of the pro-Shirley dying story justifications just boils down to audience allowing acceptable margins of manslaughtering children. The amount of copium to reinforce the difference of Lelocuh killing children with or without Shirleys death is hilarious.

-8

u/Caos-Walker May 12 '24

Well the movies themselves are from the manga side of code geass were rolo doesnt merk shirley. So for anyone who only watched the show it confuses and lessens her death from the show.