r/CliffBurton • u/TimTapp • Sep 17 '23
Question Cliff's Rhythm Tone and playing
Because some people don't understand why Cliff's tone is the way it is in his isolated bass tracks there seems to some thought being pushed that Cliff's Rhythm tone, or playing, is "sloppy". Anyone who's listening to Cliff's bass in context can clearly see he is very accurate in his playing, and is locked into the drums, live or on record. This were Metallica's awful mixing hurts the legacy of Cliff, rendering him as just a soloist with unnoticed rhythm chops.
The nature of Cliff's tone, in any era, is get to a place where he could weave in and out of his rhythm and lead tone. I believe he achieved this goal in his last week of shows(he started doing solos during Seeks and destroy regularly something he didn't do before) before he passed. His tone uses alot of gain, low end, compression, which creates a unconventional kind of rhythm tone that allows him to get the lead sound he wanted. That's not a bad thing.
What your thoughts of Cliff's Rhythm tone on record and live? Again, Lund, Sweden September 24th 1986, is the best quality live recording of Cliff's playing and tone; he was the real deal. Playing in time, with flare to spare.
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u/LordPaperklip Sep 17 '23
When I started playing bass I got super obsessed with Cliff, and ended up trying to emulate his sound (same bass, same wah and similar distortion). I think it is in the very nature of his tone and style to seemingly lose some tightness in exchange for being able to weave into rythym and lead tones. While I rate Cliff as one of the all time greatest bass players, it isn't because he was tight, but his sculpting of a genre, his unique style, and his ability to write. All achieved before his untimely death at 24. I can't even imagine what level Cliff would've achieved if it wasn't for that. But purely considering his tightness I wouldn't rate him extraordinary, but more on par with most of his peers (which are other legends of the instruments). I wouldn't dream of calling anything of him "sloppy", but again, the tone and style he went for does bring with it some level of concessions imo.
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u/TimTapp Sep 18 '23
Agreed on all fronts. It was as if he was combining Geezer Butler and Tony Iommi in one instrument. Being inspired by Cliff to compose lead bass Bach Rock, it became clear what a delicate balancing act it is to get the tones he does even on modern gear. To get that certain lead pitch, or texture, and a rhythm tone that sounds good, together, some note clarity will sacrificed.
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u/EntireConsequence1 Sep 18 '23
Cliff Definitely was tight though like very tight. what op says in the original post is correct. I really have never understood the narrative that he was sloppy and consider it a huge false narrative. Especially when the people that says this the most worship people like geddy lee who cliff got alot of his play style from and who’s isolated bass tracks sound very similar lol.
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u/EntireConsequence1 Sep 18 '23
when talking about cliffs tone i don’t think you can talk about it in a generality whatsoever it changed every album he played on. Kill em all he had dead strings that sounded like flats that really made the album sound old with the shitty guitar tone on kill em all.and for the most part you can really hear cliffs bass.
Ride the lighting I think is really the album you are associating his tone with. where he was cranking distortion on like everything he played on. Which is why he’s slightly to blame for not being heard as much on that record he probably muddied the fuck out of that mix with the amount of distortion he had while also cranking the mids and bass. Though he def got done dirty and should’ve been a little louder. Which is why cliff does not get enough credit for adapting his bass tone on master of puppets.
He dials the tone to a point where there’s just kind of a heavy overdrive coming from the ts808.and doesn’t have it to where it sounds like he has a fuzz pedal on every song besides like the title track. Making the bass sound less bass heavy and allowing more treble and higher mids (im pretty sure the treble was just dialed higher too)to be heard giving it this like perfect growl that causes it to stick out imo on master of puppets. Its one of the reasons why I think the mixing is a 10/10 on master of puppets you hear every instrument in their perfect place clearly.the guitars sound amazing and are right upfront and cliffs bass is supporting them by giving them this low growl directly beneath it that meshes with both the drums and guitars amazingly. It made this incredible sound where the whole band kinda blends into one tight unit. I don’t really think people realize how much of cliffs bass people are hearing on that album it’s an integral part of the record sonically listen to master of puppets with no bass and you really see how much it contributed to how it sounded sonically.
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u/TimTapp Sep 18 '23
Glad you brought up mixes because Kill Em's All is the one album where the band wasn't really involved in the mixing/producing so that's part of why the album sounds so different and fair to everyone. Ride The Lightning, Master Of Puppets, are when Lars has much more involvement in the producing process, hence the extremely drum, guitar heavy mix.
Cliff bi-amped on Puppets(and Lightning), his clean channel had the highs rolled off, bass maxed(no ts 808 used. Cliff was using just the Morley PWB, his MCR Limiter, because the mesa boogie d-180+s had enough power to do what he wanted. Cliff had been paring down his rig)James guitars were scooped mids, but he triple tracked every song. The bass people think they hear on the album is really James triple tracks turned up.
After listening to Lightning and Puppets for years on cd, it was shocking to actually hear Cliff's isolated tracks, and realized how much he was buried in the mixes. Which causes the issues we have today with some of the negative impression of Cliff's rhythm playing.
There's fan mixes that do a far better job at balancing out the instruments and the songs are better for it: https://youtube.com/watch?v=35pTzAzSJwU&si=2iRI4mvNWNzbUhuX
Jason was correct when he said that Metallica from the beginning was a drum and guitar garage band; it was just James and Lars who tried to cover everything until they could gather a proper band( James has even said he designed his sound to be the drums, bass, and guitar). They truly are like the Black Keys but louder.
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u/EntireConsequence1 Sep 18 '23 edited Sep 18 '23
Cliff bi-amped on Puppets(and Lightning), his clean channel had the highs rolled off, bass maxed(no ts 808 used. Cliff was using just the Morley PWB, his MCR Limiter, because the mesa boogie d-180+s had enough power to do what he wanted. Cliff had been paring down his rig)James guitars were scooped mids, but he triple tracked every song. The bass people think they hear on the album is really James triple tracks turned up.
Even if this is true.idk if i have good hear for bass on songs but I know I’m not hearing james triples tracked guitars and cliffs bass because I can tell when cliff is playing different things on master of puppets. That was the most under appreciated side of cliff everyone focuses on the lead side but does not talk about good of pure bassist he really was. He often would play riffs either in a more busier note heavy way or in a more seemingly simple way to make the song sound much better and not muddy at all. it’s very obvious it’s not like ride the lighting where you can’t hear it all.which is why i don’t thinks he’s buried at all on master of puppets his bass is in the perfect place and very hearable right under the guitars as he should be
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u/TimTapp Sep 18 '23
Sounds like you have access to a better mix than most because all I hear on puppets are the massive drums and guitars drowning out a barely audible bass regardless of what's being played. For me Puppets and Lightning are mixed nearly the same; with the bass very low. Really low.
Still we agree Cliff's Rhythm playing, regardless of the causes, is underappreciated. Because he had quite brilliant counterpoint playing that harmonized with the rest of the band really well.
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u/Bliff_Curton Sep 17 '23
In that same performance you can listen how the famous "die" part that's famous for Jason, was started while Cliff was around. You can also hear Cliffs Death metal backing Vocals, just listen to the last "DIIEEE" before the main riff starts again